Question about ammo and apts...


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nolefan
January 1, 2006, 11:37 PM
Hi there! I'm sure this has been asked about 100 million times, but one more time couldn't hurt, right? :)

I live in a high-rise apt and I own a S&W Model 60 .357 Revolver. I am wondering about which ammo to use if (god forbid) I ever had to shoot someone in my apt and didn't want to kill my neighbor.

Is hollow point better in some way?

THANKS! :)
kb

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Standing Wolf
January 1, 2006, 11:57 PM
A jacketed hollow point bullet is less likely to pass through a criminal than, say, a semi-wadcutter or jacketed solid point.

That said™, any bullet will pass through walls, and that includes wadcutters in light target .38 special loads. Indoors, a shotgun might be safer, and probably more intimidating to a criminal into the bargain.

DMK
January 2, 2006, 12:26 AM
Take a look at the ammo testing done on this site:

http://www.theboxotruth.com/

Lupinus
January 2, 2006, 12:33 AM
Hollowpoints are less likly to pass through then anything else, your best bet would be to just not miss ;).

You could also look into some form of bulelt that is made to break up or in a shot load.

Manedwolf
January 2, 2006, 12:51 AM
Hollowpoints are less likly to pass through then anything else, your best bet would be to just not miss ;).

You could also look into some form of bulelt that is made to break up or in a shot load.

Supposedly, MagSafe SWAT loads are engineered to break up in drywall. That load is only available in certain calibers, though.

nolefan
January 2, 2006, 10:56 AM
Thank you all so much! I really appreciate the help.

This is what I found for the MagSafe loads:

38 Special #38W SWAT Load 68 1,420/304-2"; 1,490/335-3" Light recoil, low flash 15.95 Breaks Apart in Sheetrock

sounds good to me!...and yes, not missing would be very helpful! :)

I've never shot a shotgun...and I'm not sure I could. Are there any smaller ones for small women?

whm1974
January 2, 2006, 11:45 AM
Indoors, a shotgun might be safer, and probably more intimidating to a criminal into the bargain.

Problem with shotguns is that they need two hands to use. Plus what if the perp was at your bedside?

Magsafes and Glaser would be your best bet.

-Bill

Standing Wolf
January 2, 2006, 09:14 PM
I've never shot a shotgun...and I'm not sure I could. Are there any smaller ones for small women?

Yes, Ma'am!

I'm nobody's idea of a shotgun authority, but here are some basic facts, along with a suggestion.

Shotguns are measured in bore size. The standard American twelve-gauge barrel measures about .75" in diameter. The next lightest is the sixteen-gauge, followed by the twenty-gauge, followed by the .410, whose bore is about .4" in diameter.

Within each gauge, you can buy light, medium, and heavy duty shells, although "heavy duty" in a .410 isn't going to be anything like heavy duty in a twelve-gauge. Some shells contain a few round metallic balls of relatively large size, up to about a third of an inch in diameter, whereas others contain many round balls of very small size. The balls used to be lead, but they're now made of assorted non-toxic metals. In general, the larger the metallic balls, the more recoil the shotgun will deliver to your shoulder. In general, the smaller the balls, the less likely they'll be to penetrate walls and less recoil they'll deliver.

The beauty of a shotgun is that the criminal has no idea what load your gun has, and most probably won't be able to tell one gauge from another, but surely does know it's hard to miss with a shotgun, and the wounds tend to be exceedingly nasty. Fear is a beautiful thing in a criminal.

You don't need to buy a heavy, bulky shotgun and end up with a bruised shoulder to defend your life with a shotgun. I'd suggest visiting a well stocked gun shop and asking every "dumb" question you can think of, bearing in mind the only dumb question is the one you don't ask. Once you've tried on some guns for size and heft, visit a shooting range with guns for rent. Try a few shotguns and a few loads.

If you can't find a range with guns for rent, hang out at shooting ranges and start asking shotgunners questions. It's the norm for shooters to offer other shooters—especially newbies—our best advice and opportunities to shoot our guns.

Best of success, eh?

henryiv
January 2, 2006, 09:21 PM
I would use Glasser safety slugs. Check them out at www.corbon.com From their web site:

"Glaser Safety Slug is the perfect choice for home and self defense. It offers reduced penetration in solid (inanimate) objects while delivering maximum stopping power with minimum danger of ricochet or over penetration.
The Glaser's thin-wall jacket and precision compressed lead shot core with a soft polymer tip. This construction provides an expansion, resulting in controlled disintegration. The round-nose ballistic design of the bullet profile guarantees feeding reliability and maximizes."

Get the 38 special +P load.

Taurus 66
January 2, 2006, 10:00 PM
http://www.extremeshockusa.com/

HighVelocity
January 2, 2006, 10:08 PM
http://www.extremeshockusa.com/

Not good.

Taurus 66
January 2, 2006, 10:23 PM
Yeah well it just happens that anything I have to say or offer around here is generally countered or chewed up and spit out by any one of a carefully selected clique (many a divisions within the department known as "the Peanut Gallery). So I offered a link for the author to look into. Live with it!

nolefan
January 2, 2006, 11:03 PM
Thanks, Standing Wolf- that was a VERY helpful lesson in shotguns. And, I'm super at asking "dumb" questions, so I think I will do so the next time I'm at the range.

Henry- I will check out the Glaser. Thank you!

Taurus- I'm sorry that people are keen to your advice here, but I did find this on the website:

The World's Premier Home Defense Round (R2LP-Reduced Richochet Limited Penetration)
In addition to Law Enforcement Only rounds, The ExtremeShock™ Explosive Entry Air Freedom Round Personal Defense ammunition is the best choice for home or urban carry. The rounds frangible and reduced ricochet characteristics provide a greater level of safety. A miss on a target wont penetrate through several walls, and potentially injure a sleeping family member. The pistol rounds comply with appropriate DOJ pistol caliber ballistic vest requirements, but are devastatingly effective against armed assailants. An officer can shoot a rabid dog on a playground with less worry that the bullet will penetrate, hit the ground, ricochet and injure or kill a bystander.

which I found very helpful.

Thank you all again!

pete f
January 2, 2006, 11:15 PM
As far as smaller shotguns, Remington makes a shotgun called the 870 express youth, which is a nice size for a smaller scales person to handle. my son was able to handle it at 12 my daughter was a bit slow growiing it took her till she was 13 till she managed it comfortably, used it cost me about 175 new ones are about 260.


you should get one and try it out on a skeet or trap range tell the ranger that you are new and i am sure they will give you all the help you can manage

Jim K
January 2, 2006, 11:17 PM
NOTE one thing about that one "boxotruth". The dry wall is 5/8 inch. Most home drywall is 1/2 or 3/8 inch, a lot thinner.

I have done a fair amount of drywall testing and I will tell anyone that there is no gun capable of injuring anyone that will not penetrate an average home wall if it hits only drywall. Not a shotgun, not a .22, not a pistol, not a revolver, not a hollow point magic bullet. Even a shotgun with #6 shot will penetrate over two 1/2 inch sheets, though lighter shot, like #8, will sometimes not penetrate a second or third.

And, in spite of some gunzine rants, a .223 will blow through dry wall (the tester on that site found it lost accuracy, but definitely penetrated). People who claim that an AR-15 is a good home defense weapon because it won't penetrate two sheets of dry wall are either doing some odd testing or are simply nuts.

Jim

GoBrush
January 2, 2006, 11:35 PM
+1 for Glaser have not shot them myself but have read a bit about them probably a good place to start with your studying. Any Frangible bullet would need to be concidered for your application.

Manedwolf
January 3, 2006, 01:26 PM
http://www.extremeshockusa.com/

Good lord. With a website with people looking TactiCool like extras from a CounterStrike gamer magazine, and round names like Fang Face...I don't think I could take them seriously. That and the IN YOUR FACE fonts and design...ugh.

Besides, what's an "Anti-Terrorist Round"? Does it know what a terrorist is? :scrutiny:

Manedwolf
January 3, 2006, 01:28 PM
And, in spite of some gunzine rants, a .223 will blow through dry wall (the tester on that site found it lost accuracy, but definitely penetrated). People who claim that an AR-15 is a good home defense weapon because it won't penetrate two sheets of dry wall are either doing some odd testing or are simply nuts.
Jim

Well, that's true, in a way. The AR itself won't penetrate two sheets of drywall unless you have a bayonet on it. :D The rounds sure will, though.

Taurus 66
January 3, 2006, 02:18 PM
Good lord. With a website with people looking TactiCool like extras from a CounterStrike gamer magazine, and round names like Fang Face...I don't think I could take them seriously. That and the IN YOUR FACE fonts and design...ugh.

It's all about not looking cool and being plain old Joe, eh Hoss? I hadn't thought of it that way until you brought it up. So dirty Wolfy for me clean gun it is, 'cause the fine upstanding folks here tell me "less is better", "dirty's clean", "Glazer good", "Extrme Shock baaad".

http://tinypic.com/jl0381.jpg

I'm more focused on the ammunition and if it's effective, bottom line, not the MTV/VH1 kid bit. Sure they overexxagerate a little on the stopping power, but I bet it's no more or no less as effective than Glaser.

Has anyone here "ever" purchased even so much as 1 box of this ammo just for the sake of reporting to the rest of us if it's good, bad, this or that?

RioShooter
January 3, 2006, 02:35 PM
Good lord. With a website with people looking TactiCool like extras from a CounterStrike gamer magazine, and round names like Fang Face...I don't think I could take them seriously. That and the IN YOUR FACE fonts and design...ugh.

Besides, what's an "Anti-Terrorist Round"? Does it know what a terrorist is? :scrutiny:

The most common criticism I read about ExtremeShock concerns its magazine ads or home page. I agree they are over the edge.

But, I haven't read an objective evaluation of their ammo.

Despite the poor advertising, their ammo could be good stuff.

Stiletto Null
January 3, 2006, 03:09 PM
Man, the web page design makes me want to hurt things. Just offends my aesthetic sense.

Anyway, looking at their .45ACP "Fang Face" ammo, you're going just shy of $2 per round at $36.21 per box of 20. Considering that I would never want to rely on ammunition which I haven't tested extensively to make sure it feeds properly, that's worrisome.

For comparison, the 200gr. CCI Speer Gold Dot round runs...$13.77 for 20 rounds.

As stated already, information about the Fang Face ammunition is scarce, and it's ass-expensive, whereas Gold Dot has long been established in the market as an effective round, and is less than half the price.

Nothing personal, Taurus, but lacking actual data (gel or statistical) about ExtremeTactical's products, why would any sensible person want to be the first to try it, especially as that person's first defense load?

Anyway, I'm not sure what's more frightening, the website design or the pricing.

***

Back on topic, beware that Glaser Safety Slugs will probably give you a drastically different POI compared to more "normal" rounds; if you want to go that route, remember to get a enough to get used to aiming the things.

Jim K
January 3, 2006, 03:22 PM
I once knew a man who had read too much by Mel Tappan and who kept an HK-91, a couple of hundred magazines and thousands of rounds of 7.62 NATO in his apartment "for burglars." Thank God he never decided to cut loose as the walls were so thin you could hear the guy in the next apartment chewing gum. I believe firmly in the right to keep and bear arms, but people who don't use some common sense could kill innocent people and really hurt our cause.

(For the newbies, Tappan was a gunzine writer, a quadriplegic who was confined to a wheel chair, but he never disclosed that until it came out in the last year of his life. His favorite topic was the HK-91, which he saw as doing everything from killing mosquitoes to making 3-minute eggs. He always seemed to be talking about defending some kind of mountain hideout against hordes of Communists, or whoever was the enemy of the day. In his writings, he never quite said that HE had done all kinds of testing and accomplished all sorts of derring-do missions with his trusty HK, but he never said he hadn't, leaving most readers under the impression that he was a sort of James Bond.)

Jim

Stiletto Null
January 3, 2006, 06:51 PM
From a similar thread at the Other Side forums (http://www.theothersideofkim.com/index.php/forums/viewthread/9566/):

Glasers are remarkably effective at producing shocking (in the medical sense) wounds in soft tissue. They are almost useless for any other purpose; including penetrating heavy leather clothing.

If you shoot someone wearing a decent grade of motorcycle safety suit with glasers, he will be in pain, but completely functional.

Additionally, glasers are not very good at producing deep penetrating wounds, because the energy of the low mass pellets is typically expended rapidly once striking a firm surface.

Finally, they are only good for about 15 yards, and they WILL shoot very differnetly from your gun than standard construction rounds. They are MUCH lighter, and MUCH higher velocity than standard rounds (1400fps from a 145gr .45acp anyone), and WILL shoot to a different point of aim, with a different recoil feel etc…

Glasers (and mag safes and bee safes) are good for three things:

1. Inside a soft walled building (almost no overpenetration issue)
2. Inside confined spaces, especially with hard surfaces (almost no ricochet issue)
3. In crowds, or other situations with a bystander danger or no clear LOS or Backstop (no overpenetration, no ricochet)

In those three environments they are excellent. In any other environment you are better off with a standard premium hollowpoint.

nolefan
January 3, 2006, 10:47 PM
Thank you, Stilletto, for that information. Definitely will practice with the magsafes/glasers at the range.

I do feel that because I live in a high-rise apt building (and god knows what the walls are made of...) they might be the only really valid choice I have....I mean, I don't believe that anyone will ever break into my apt here, but better safe than sorry if I ever have to shoot. Despite the fact that I would then have nowhere to live, because the lease says "if you shoot a gun, your lease is null and void". :uhoh:

akodo
January 3, 2006, 11:38 PM
i think there is too much concern by the average citizen about overpenetrating walls, once you go beyond the general confines of ones own dwelling.

Okay, grab up your 300 win mag. Now try and shoot your neighbor through the wall. Okay, just kidding. Give your neighbor vacation tickets, watch him leave, then try and shoot a specific object in his house through your wall, not by poking your gun out a window. GOOD LUCK.

If i get in a firefight in my own house with the hells angles or new orleans looters who got lost, I want the most effective firearm avaiable. The chances of one of my misses leaving my home and finding someone else is extremely small. Hell you live in an apartment, maybe you shoot the armed intruder with a shotgun, no penetration, he looses balance, falls off your balcony, and lands on someone on the sidewalk, killing them.

NateDogg
January 4, 2006, 02:48 PM
Nolefan, try http://www.mossberg.com/pcatalog/Specpurp.htm and scroll down to the bottom. Mossberg makes a very cool "Home Security Special" in .410 bore. Relatively inexpensive as well.

jtward01
January 4, 2006, 04:54 PM
Making no comment on the quality of the ammo, I would not use something called "Extreme Shock" ammunition. It seems to me a name like that could be an invitation to a murder indictment or at least a huge civil suit judgement if you were ever forced to defend yourself with a firearm.

"Your honor, Mr. Jones deliberately bought the most deadly, most damaging ammunition he could find planning in advance to kill, when he could have purchased far less dangerous bullets that would likely only caused minor wounds while still allowing him to defend himself."

I know, there are all kinds of holes in this argument, but would the judge and jury know?

The safest ammunition you can use from a legal standpoint is whatever ammo your local police department uses.

Stiletto Null
January 4, 2006, 04:59 PM
You know, I think people over-inflate the "scary ammo is BAD in court" thing, because I've never actually heard of it being an issue.

I dunno, experience in buying stuff tells me that the more loudly something is marketed (you'll notice that high-grade professional gear in just about anything has very low-key, matter-of-fact marketing), the less substance there is behind said marketing. Stuff like Monster Cable comes to mind.

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