Would it be a straw purchase if...


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Lupinus
January 1, 2006, 11:30 PM
So here is the thing. I want a handgun but I am only 20. To my understanding it is technically legal for me to own one but not for me to buy one. If I were to pick one out and pay for it but had a parent do the paperwork would it be considered a straw purchase?

How should I go about buying one and legally doing so? I don't want to illegally do it, want to keep it legal. If I had to do it illegally I would rather just wait.

Advice?

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redranger1
January 1, 2006, 11:48 PM
yes i would say that it would be considered a straw purchase. but it could be given to you as a gift.:D

Car Knocker
January 2, 2006, 12:00 AM
If your state so allows, you can make a private purchase of a handgun without conflict with federal law.

If you pay for a gun and have someone else do the paperwork, that is a straw purchase and any reputable FFL would not go through with it. The person who pluncks down the cash needs to be the one to complete the 4473. That person could then gift the handgun to you legally as long as it is legal for a person your age, in your state, to own a handgun.

Lupinus
January 2, 2006, 12:05 AM
So how bout if I were to just point say "that one" and the parent plunks down the cash and then gifts it? Basicly a gift that was picked out by the person getting it because the giver doesn't know much of anything about the gift?

I don't mind loopholing the law, I just don't want to break it.

Mauserguy
January 2, 2006, 12:39 AM
Pointing and saying that one and having the gun immediately being "gifted" to you sounds like a straw purchase to me. Having said that, I won't lose any sleep over hearing about it, as long as you don't use it to hold up a Quicky Mart.
Mauserguy

M.E.Eldridge
January 2, 2006, 02:55 AM
When I was under 18 and my father and I would go to gun shows, if I saw something inexpensive he would buy it for me, fill out the paperwork, own it in his name, but I would pay him back by doing extra chores, forfiting my allowance,etc, until the price was 'repaid'.Then he would let me have it and keep it in my room. My uncle who was a sheriff's deputy knew we did this and said their wasn't anything explicitly illegal about it.

Azrael256
January 2, 2006, 03:04 AM
I think pointing and saying "that one" might fly. As I understand it, if you are legally prohibited from owning the gun and you do that, it would be a straw purchase. IIRC, there is no problem buying a gun for someone who can legally own it, regardless of the circumstances.

That Said(tm) the last time I saw the "that one" in operation, the purchasing party asked the salesman who's info he wanted for the NICS, and he asked for the recipient's. Both parties had their CHLs in hand, which pre-empted the NICS check, but the recipient's info went down on the 4473.

Eldridge, it works fine in your case because you never legally assumed ownership of the firearm even after you had "paid off" your dad. Dad bought it, dad legally owned it, and it was gifted to you when you became eligible for ownership. There was no transfer involved at the time of the sale, even if dad let you carry it to the car. If he had turned you loose in public with your gun and a box of ammo, there might have been problems. My dad did the same thing with me. The two guns I had were legally his until I was 18 even though they stayed in my closet. This situation is different because Lupinus is eligible for ownership, so me giving him the gun constitutes a transfer.

kage genin
January 2, 2006, 03:15 AM
Couldn't you just have it legally transferred to you through the FFL right after your parent takes possession of it? Or depending on your state you may not even have to do so through an FFL.

DevLcL
January 2, 2006, 03:40 AM
I dunno if this helps at all but...

I possess 3 handguns that are legally owned by my dad. All three times I just gave my pops the cash before going in the store, once inside I just pointed out what I was interrested in and my dad said "I want that one" and he filled out all the paperwork. The salesman behind the counter was even talking to ME about accessories, different calibers, things of that nature while directing all conversation about the actual purchase twords my father. The salesman knew exactly what we were doing and seemed to have no problem what-so-ever, indeed, he even helped out. Then when we got home the pistol was basically mine to keep.

Keep in mind I live just outside of SF. Handguns are BARELY legal here! :what:

-Dev

joab
January 2, 2006, 03:53 AM
Pointing and saying that one and having the gun immediately being "gifted" to you sounds like a straw purchase to me.
Mauserguy
No it isn't. Pointing does not make it a straw purchase. Who supplies the money determines if it is a straw purchase.

I think pointing and saying "that one" might fly. As I understand it, if you are legally prohibited from owning the gun and you do that, it would be a straw purchase. IIRC, there is no problem buying a gun for someone who can legally own it, regardless of the circumstances. Straw purchases have nothing to do with whether the recipient is prohibited or not, except that they are usually made for people who are prohibitted and the law is aimed at them.
A straw purchase is defined by who supplies the funds for the purchase

This is explained on the 4473 that you fill out and sign to buy a gun

Amadeus
January 2, 2006, 03:58 AM
I am glad that you're pursuing this issue with due diligence. Some states do allow a parent to transfer a firearm as a gift to their adult child. However, firearms laws vary from state to state. You are best served by checking with your local authorities: State Department of Justice, Sheriff's Department Firearms Division, or similar Firearms Licensing Authorities for your area.

While I understand your anxiousness, I urge you to hold off on your purchase until you turn twenty-one. Then you can buy your handgun for yourself. There is far more pride in doing it yourself and not having to rely on Mommy and Daddy to buy your toys for you. If you want a grown-up's toy then be a grown up about it. Be patient for a few more months. Impulsiveness is not the best trait to exhibit around handguns in any case.

When you finally turn twenty-one march into that store with your money, look the clerk in the eye, point at the counter and say with confidence and pride what I said when I bought MY first handgun at twenty one, "I will take that one."

Sistema1927
January 2, 2006, 09:03 AM
Does anyone else see how this thread demonstrates just how ridiculous gun control laws are?

Lupinus sounds like a responsible young man, wanting to do the right thing, and not wanting to get into trouble with the law. He might decide to forego getting a weapon as a result.

The typical criminal doesn't care one bit about this, he will get his weapon by theft, or out of the trunk of some ghetto gun runner.

My Dad is fond of saying: "locks are for honest folk". In the same vein, gun control laws only discourage the law abiding, and do nothing to stop criminal scum.

AirForceShooter
January 2, 2006, 09:05 AM
Florida allows you to privately purchase a hand gun if you're over 18, which you are.

Not hard to do

AFS

Lupinus
January 2, 2006, 10:12 AM
I think thats what I will likly end up doing AFS.

Besides the fact it is less legal hoopla and the headaches (allbeit understandable if I put myself in the FFL's shoes with the crappy laws today) of a dealer who doesn't want to go through a loophole in the law that is legal but barly.

Besides that it will likly be cheaper. One of the things I really want is a Sig and NIB them things are a little expensive for my price range so used might be the way to go.

elliost
January 2, 2006, 10:12 AM
You can probably find the answer to your question simply by looking at your state's laws. You find your state's laws from a link at packing.org. In Texas you can posses a handgun at 18.

22-rimfire
January 2, 2006, 10:13 AM
I (for two) think this thread points out the ridiculous nature (perhaps rigidity is a better word) of the law. If a young adult is responsible, I don't think many parents (who own guns) would have a problem purchasing a firearm on their behalf even if it technically is a "straw purchase". Having a parent purchase a gun imposes another layer of security into the transaction. But, I believe the parent should have some responsibility as to the misuse of that firearm if it ever came to that prior to the minor turning 21. Call it a gift.... Now, if you hand the money to a 21 yr old buddy and say buy me that Glock.... that's a straw purchase; there is little difference with buying alcohol for minors except for the penalty of course. If the firearm is never used for criminal purposes, it really doesn't matter much. But, add a criminal act into the equation and you have a legal problem with both the parent and the minor. I'm no lawyer, but one needs to look at the spirit of the law as well as the actual wording of a law.

I doubt the question would ever come up unless their is a criminal act involved. As was said, these rules are for the law abiding person and have little or no practical effect as to whether a criminal gets a gun on the street regardless of their age.

TallPine
January 2, 2006, 10:40 AM
Does anyone else see how this thread demonstrates just how ridiculous gun control laws are?
Yep, my thoughts exactly :(

entropy
January 2, 2006, 10:53 AM
There is a grey area there. I have seen a person just under the legal age to buy for themselves come in and direct a parent which gun to buy for them. This is generally something I discourage, though in the instance of a hunting rifle or pistol, obviously some input by the person is required, if nothing else than to check stock fit or whether the caliber is appropriate. I remember one 16 or 17 year old kid kept coming in and fondling the AR-15 in the rack, came in with his Mom sometime after. From talking to him all those time he'd come in to fondle it, I knew he planned on going into the Army when he turned eighteen. She bought the rifle for him, although my boss was reluctant to sell it to her. He came in about a year later a lot thinner (he'd been kinda pudgy), and with that air of self confidence Basic instills in a young man. He stopped in to say thanks for selling to his Mom, it allowed him to achieve his dream of firing Expert and being very comfortable with his issue rifle. I in turn thanked him for his service, and wished him well in his time in the Army. He shipped out to Kuwait shortly after completeing AIT as an 11B. (This was during Desert Shield)

c_yeager
January 2, 2006, 12:20 PM
Yeah, its a straw purchase. On the other hand a whole lot of kids get "their" first .22s at 15 the exact same way. It would be perfectly legal for your dad or a friend to purchase a gun and let you shoot it whenever you wanted, heck they could even store it in your bedroom. But, if you supply the money, and they fill out the paper work and transfer ownership to you, then it is against the letter of the law.

Snagglepuss
January 2, 2006, 12:38 PM
Isn't one of the first questions of the 4473, "Are you purchasing this gun for yourself?" or something like that. It your father says yes it seems like a done deal. You just figure out the other stuff, financing, when you get home. You will just be using your fathers gun until you are of age. Then you can transfer it legally. I am NO expert but this sounds alright to me. Please correct me if I am wrong, I want to learn.

another okie
January 2, 2006, 01:06 PM
If Daddy is buying the gun with intention of later transferring it to Junior as anything other than an outright gift you are taking a very big chance on a major federal crime. Paying Daddy back through chores is consideration and sounds like a straw purchase to me.

The various people who are advising you about what their uncle in law enforcement said, or what the local police said, or what the state licensing agency said, are doing you a disservice.

This is a federal crime and if you want a real answer, you would have to talk to the ATF directly or the local U.S. Attorney. Federal law enforcement often has little sense of discretion or tolerance and is perfectly willing to prosecute violations that might seem "technical" or "trivial" to most people.

Given that the downside is so great, take no chances.
Just wait until you are 21.

joab
January 2, 2006, 01:28 PM
if you want a real answer, you would have to talk to the ATF directly or the local U.S. Attorney. .
Or just simply actually read (front and back) that federal document that you sign when you buy a gun

TexasRifleman
January 2, 2006, 01:33 PM
Or just simply actually read (front and back) that federal document that you sign when you buy a gun

It truly isn't more complicated than that. It's a very simple issue. If you pay for the gun in ANY way, it's a straw purchase unless your name is on the yellow sheet. Period.

Why does this cause so much confusion?

If your parents are into guns, let them give it to you as a gift. If they won't, wait a year. Your "only" 20 and that means less than a year anyway.

Save up more money and on your 21st birthday buy yourself something REALLY nice.

Hawkmoon
January 2, 2006, 02:11 PM
Besides the fact it is less legal hoopla and the headaches (allbeit understandable if I put myself in the FFL's shoes with the crappy laws today) of a dealer who doesn't want to go through a loophole in the law that is legal but barly.
What "loophole" is that? Receiving a gun as a gift?

That isn't a "loophole," it's a legally permitted action. And there's no such thing as "barely" legal. An action is legal ... or it isn't. The laws (misguided as they may be) provide that you may not, as a person not eligible to purchase a handgun from a dealer, have an eligible person buy the handgun for you using your money. If you do, that's a staw purchase. End of discussion.

The law allows your parent, your uncle, or any adult legally entitled to purchase a handgun to do so WITH THEIR OWN MONEY and to subsequently give that gun to you. That's not a loophole, that's the law. There is no minimum time required before they can give the gun to you. The issue is that the gun must be purchased with THEIR money and given to you as a gift.

Why is this hard to understand?

Hawkmoon
January 2, 2006, 02:13 PM
I dunno if this helps at all but...

I possess 3 handguns that are legally owned by my dad. All three times I just gave my pops the cash before going in the store, once inside I just pointed out what I was interrested in and my dad said "I want that one" and he filled out all the paperwork. The salesman behind the counter was even talking to ME about accessories, different calibers, things of that nature while directing all conversation about the actual purchase twords my father. The salesman knew exactly what we were doing and seemed to have no problem what-so-ever, indeed, he even helped out. Then when we got home the pistol was basically mine to keep.

Keep in mind I live just outside of SF. Handguns are BARELY legal here! :what:

-Dev
Keep in mind that your father has committed three straw purchases.

joab
January 2, 2006, 02:25 PM
. The laws (misguided as they may be) provide that you may not, as a person not eligible to purchase a handgun from a dealer, have an eligible person buy the handgun for you using your money. If you do, that's a staw purchase. End of discussion.

Small correction
The law does not care if you are a prohibitted person or not.

If I give a friend money to pick up a gun for me at the gun show because I can't get away and the dealer is from out of town it's still a straw purchase even though I am able to legally buy one myself.

Straw purchase is determined by who's money is used for the purchase, as outlined on the back of form 4473

John3-16
January 2, 2006, 02:43 PM
how about this? I pick out a gun I want.my wife does the paper work in my name-I sign my name and use my c.c.w? ther is a reason for this .:banghead:

belton-deer-hunter
January 3, 2006, 12:23 PM
i dont see why your wife couldnt buy it seeing as the whole sposal privlage and all. but here when i was younger we did the same thing i wanted a gun from walmart or acedmy i told my grandfather would but it i walked in and put the money down for law away and he did the paper work the handed him the gun he handed it to me outside the store.l i went to the pawnshop one time that knew my grandfather and told them he would fill out the paper work and they said ok gave me the paper work i took it to him and he filled it out and signed it and i took it back and got the gun no problem.

Lupinus
January 3, 2006, 12:32 PM
Hey I gave her the money, it is therefore hers now so she aint buying it with mine :D

J/K

I'm debating between going private for a used gun, cheaper and can probably get a better gun within my price range. Also less headaches from an uncomfertable dealer and stupid laws.

Lennyjoe
January 3, 2006, 02:00 PM
I pick out a gun I want.my wife does the paper work in my name-I sign my name and use my c.c.w? ther is a reason for this

That young man would be illegal. Also, the person doing the sale would immediately terminate it.

BTW, I just gave my 21 year old son his first handgun. One of my .45's for Christmas. :D

Kramer Krazy
January 3, 2006, 02:11 PM
I pick out a gun I want.my wife does the paper work in my name-I sign my name and use my c.c.w? there is a reason for this.That young man would be illegal. Also, the person doing the sale would immediately terminate it.

BTW, I just gave my 21 year old son his first handgun. One of my .45's for Christmas. :D
Just a week and a half ago, my wife picked up a Colt Mustang for me as a Christmas gift from a local, respectible, sporting-goods store. I was actually going to buy it, but she talked me out of it so she could buy it for me as a gift. I was carrying our daughter and my wife just recently had hip replacement, and without a stroller, I held on to our daughter. My wife filled out the 4473 form for me, I signed it while she held the paper, I used my CWP to eliminate the phone call to SLED, and then my wife paid for it when we got to the register. BTW, we both have bought guns from that dealer on several occasions, and we both have our carry permits. No one seemed to blink an eye when we went through the whole procedure.

Ala Dan
January 3, 2006, 02:34 PM
Stay out of the actual transaction, and let your parents give it too you as a gift~!:D I see NO harm done, and NO foul committed.:cool:

Lupinus
January 3, 2006, 02:49 PM
Me either, problem is no one that knows squat bout guns to pick one out lol.

Ala Dan
January 3, 2006, 03:02 PM
Get you a new Shooter's Bible / Gun Digest study it carefully, and
make your selection. Then, and only then have your parents go out and
get it for you. BTW, educate them on the aspects of questions to ask
such as proper operation of the firearm you choose, safety concerns,
correct ammo, etc~!:uhoh: You know the deal~!:D

gt3944
January 3, 2006, 03:28 PM
word of advice, wait till your old enough to buy one yourself.....

Lupinus
January 3, 2006, 03:29 PM
word of advice, wait till your old enough to buy one yourself.....
I am old enough to buy a rifle or a shotgun, there is no reason I shouldn't be old enough to buy a handgun :cuss:

Falconeer
January 3, 2006, 04:26 PM
Firearms law is NOT someplace to be skirting the grey areas with. :)

I highly recommend you check out this (http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com) page, which is produced by Jon H. Gutmacher. He's a Florida attorney specializing in firearms law, as well as the author of 'Florida Firearms: Law, Use & Ownership'. It's essentially the go to source for understandable explaination of current law. He updates it every year, and he has a whole section on 'straw purchases' (I'd check mine, but it's at home and I'm at work :p). It's a good book to own for any Florida gun owner, but damn near essentially for CCW holders (I bought mine during my CCW class).

WillBrayJr
January 3, 2006, 06:47 PM
If you're going to do it, do it and keep your mouth shut. There are many threads, do a search. Life is too short to care about silly laws.

Amadeus
January 3, 2006, 10:00 PM
there is no reason I shouldn't be old enough to buy a handgun

There IS a reason. It's called the LAW. Some of the laws that control firearms purchases and possession may be inconvenient. Some may be flatly objectionable. But finding ways to break those laws is NOT the way to make them go away. As law abiding citizens who wish to preserve our rights it is vital that we refrain from engaging in behavior that strengthens the argument in favor of those with opposing politics.

It appears more and more as this thread progresses that you are asking us to tell you what you want to hear. The more insistent you become the more you exhibit the type behavior of that I would not want at my local range: impulsive, indignant, rash, and totally disdainful of the law!

Some of us have indicated that you should wait until you are 21 to purchase a handgun. I urge you to take that advice because if you continue to insist on skirting the law (especially in a public forum) then be prepared for the legal consequences!!

akodo
January 3, 2006, 10:28 PM
when i was a kid as a reward for being a big help during harvest season (as well as a bumper crop, so we could actually afford something beyond the necessities of life) my dad bought me a .22 rifle 'of my own'. We went in, i looked at different models, the owner addressed his questions to me, i picked a ruger 10/22 and a 30 round mag and a scope, my dad paid for it all and filled the forms out. This was then gifted to me, i.e. i carried it out of the store.

when a friend got married i agreed to buy him a gun for a wedding present within a certian budget. We looked at guns, he did most of the handling of various arms, check for fit, etc. I filled out forms, paid for it, and handed it to him to carry out of the store as a gift.

You should be able to do the same thing. Go in, pick it out, have mom buy it, then walk out of the store.

now, if you and mom come to some agreement about extra chores, you dontating to the general gas fund for all vehicles, or whatever, then that is your business.

Lupinus
January 3, 2006, 10:42 PM
There IS a reason. It's called the LAW
Something I have said several times I do not want to break. If I did I would go find a bum on the street give him five hundred bucks and tell him to walk into a gun store buy what I tell him and when he gets out there is fifty bucks in it for him. I have said several times I do not want to break the law, the entire point of this thread is to try and find a LEGAL way to get around a redicules law so that I do not break it.

But finding ways to break those laws is NOT the way to make them go away. As law abiding citizens who wish to preserve our rights it is vital that we refrain from engaging in behavior that strengthens the argument in favor of those with opposing politics.
Not looking for a way to break it and get over on a dealer. I am looking for a way to buy one legaly. It is perfectly legal for me to own a handgun, I can even buy one privatly, the thing I can't do is buy ammo or go through an FFL. Not looking for a way to break it, I am looking for a legal way to buy something that in certian ways is legal and in other ways illegal.

It appears more and more as this thread progresses that you are asking us to tell you what you want to hear.
How? I am asking for ways to legaly get a handgun. How the heck is that trying to get what I want to hear? The majority of people have offered good advice on the question asked or pointed me to places where I could find better information. Not jsut saying "wait till you are older" that is saying what you feel like saying and offering diddly squat to the topic. If it was flat out illegal that would be one thing, but it isn't if done in certian ways such as privatly, more specificly I wanted to know the legality of a parent buying me a handgun.

The more insistent you become the more you exhibit the type behavior of that I would not want at my local range: impulsive, indignant, rash, and totally disdainful of the law!
I have taken the time to come onto a message board for months, learn about handguns, posted questions and contributed both on this board and others. How the hell is thinking on something for months impulsive or rash? And disdainful of the law? Disdainful of the law would be outright breaking it. Not looking for a legal way to get around a law, in fact I have said a few times I will likly just go through a private sale (which is perfectly legal) rather then go through an FFL which would a lot more headaches and chances of breaking the law. That is the complete opposite of rash, impulsive, and disdain.

I urge you to take that advice because if you continue to insist on skirting the law (especially in a public forum) then be prepared for the legal consequences
What consequences? Since when is it illegal to ask a question on how to do something legal that in the most common way would be illegal? Asking a question isn't illegal, and neither is looking for a way around a stupid law in order to do something legaly.

Amadeus
January 4, 2006, 12:00 AM
You're right. Asking a question is not illegal. What you're proposing may be perfectly legal as well. Or it may not be. But should some aggressive prosecutor or Police Officer decide that your question broadcasted across the internet shows an intent to skirt laws then you may potentially have some explaining to do.

If you want to know what your local laws are concerning the legal purchase of a handgun then you need to check with your local authorities.

If you believe that there is a way to purchase a handgun legally without going through a dealer then you need to confirm that with your local authorities or an attorney.

Don't ask for an answer and then argue the response when it's not what you already believe to be true or if it's not what you want to hear!

What you are proposing can be sticky territory. Some people have said it's not a straw purchase. Others have said it is. That discrenpancy alone should be a red flag!! Check your local laws!! Check with the State or Sheriff Department firearm division. Learn what is allowed and what isn't. Then you can make an educated decision based on the facts of your specific situation.

Your impatience is also a big concern. I understand how badly you want a handgun. I was the same way. I waited for years to turn 21. I read and studied and daydreamed and paged through hundreds of glossy gun rags trying to decide exactly which gun I would get. But I did wait. And I did survive the wait.

There is no harm in waitinga few more months!!!! But there MAY be significant harm in cutting corners. I can't say this any more explicitely. Check your local laws!!

Lupinus
January 4, 2006, 12:45 AM
Don't ask for an answer and then argue the response when it's not what you already believe to be true or if it's not what you want to hear!

Im not arguing what I don't want to hear, I am arguing the people who simply say "wait till your are 21" when should I wait isn't the topic. If it was flat out illegal in any way shape or form that owuld be one thing, it isn't.

But should some aggressive prosecutor or Police Officer decide that your question broadcasted across the internet shows an intent to skirt laws then you may potentially have some explaining to do.

Let them, untill I try doing something illegal they have no cause to do a damn thing. I have asked how I could do something legaly, let them try that before a judge. In fact I hope some gunho fresh from law school prosecutor does read this and get some ideas about arresting me or some bull crap, I could use the money Id be getting from the lawsuit I would have a lawyer filing a few hours later.

Some people have said it's not a straw purchase. Others have said it is. That discrenpancy alone should be a red flag!! Check your local laws!! Check with the State or Sheriff Department firearm division. Learn what is allowed and what isn't. Then you can make an educated decision based on the facts of your specific situation.
Anything on an iternet forum should be taken with a grain of salt and checked on :rolleyes:
That doesn't mean you shouldn't ask for ideas so you have a bit more opinion and direction on where to focus on.

Your impatience is also a big concern
What impatience? I don't feel I should have to wait to exorcise my rights and own something. That isn't impatience. Certianly not when it isn't done on impulse.

I waited for years to turn 21. I read and studied and daydreamed and paged through hundreds of glossy gun rags trying to decide exactly which gun I would get. But I did wait. And I did survive the wait.
Good for you, that doesn't mean I can't explore other legal options because you didn't want to.

jtward01
January 4, 2006, 03:27 AM
Does anyone else see how this thread demonstrates just how ridiculous gun control laws are?

No kidding. Years ago I had a friend who was hired as a police officer with a small Florida town when he was only 19. He had to carry a department-issued revolver because he couldn't own one, and when we went to the range to shoot I had to sign for his ammo.

I think going to the gun shop with your father, pointing out the gun you want and having your father purchase it as a gift for you would be perfectly legal, especially if you wait until your birthday, Christmas or other event when presents are commonly given such as a high school or college graduation, etc.

Heck, even Sarah Brady bought a hunting rifle as a gift for her son.

TrapdoorBilly
January 4, 2006, 05:35 AM
"If it was flat out illegal in any way shape or form that owuld be one thing, it isn't."


Then help me to understand the point of this thread. If it is not illegal then just buy the thing yourself.

joab
January 4, 2006, 08:47 AM
The Federal firearms laws require that the individual filling out this form must be buying the firearm for himself or herself or as a gift. Any individual who is not buying the firearm for himself or herself or as a gift, but who completes this form, violates the law.

Example: Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out this form, he will violate the law. However, if Mr. Jones buys a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones may lawfully complete this form. A licensee who knowingly delivers a firearm to an individual who is not buying the firearm for himself or herself or as a gift violates the law by maintaining a false ATFF 4473.

Anybody recognize this statement
You should you signed a federal document saying that you understood and under penalty of law were adhereing to it.
It's not hard guys it's written in fifth grade word problem English

Stiletto Null
January 4, 2006, 09:20 AM
Aha, some signal amongst the noise!

FWIW, I thought private transfers were OK for pretty much anything, provided buyer is over 18?

Lupinus
January 4, 2006, 09:58 AM
Then help me to understand the point of this thread. If it is not illegal then just buy the thing yourself.
Because doing it myself would be. My question was not the legality of doing it myself, it was the legality of a parent doing it for me.

deadin
January 4, 2006, 10:44 AM
This begining to get boring. Question asked and answered. Gifted- OK. Straw- No. Difference between gifted and straw?--Who puts up the money. All other "scenarios" are merely obscurification.
I would say the overriding consideration is the response and reaction of the Feds and/or local Law Enforcement. This area is "grey" enough to keep you tied up in court if they deem it so.
Unfair? Well SH.. My opinion? Don't push it unless you want to attempt to establish some case law.

Dean

HankB
January 4, 2006, 12:23 PM
IMHO there are many - a GREAT many - instances of parents filling out the forms so their child can buy the gun they saved their paper route/McJob money for. Good families don't sweat someone else's paperwork requirements.

IANAL, but I doubt any law enforcement agency has any interest in prosecuting this sort of thing. And if they did, and (this is important) no actual crime or stupidity - murder, assault, robbery, taking the gun to school, etc. - was committed, successful prosecution would be nearly impossible.

If Dad maintained it was a gift for his son, and the son maintained Dad gave it to him as a gift . . . who would say otherwise?

Carl N. Brown
January 4, 2006, 02:38 PM
My son wanted a gun for Christmas and I did a check on
"straw sales" and found the following about a recent court case:

CHARGE:

"E. Count 6--False Statement to a Licensee in the Acquisition
of a Firearm, Aiding and Abetting
Count 6 of the indictment charged Polk with aiding and abet-
ting the purchase of a firearm through a false and fictitious
statement. In particular, the Government alleged that Polk
purchased weapons from Liberty Sports through Davidson, a
"straw purchaser." Such purchases, argues the Government,
violate 18 U.S.C. 167; 922(a)(6) because they involve the buyer
making a false statement about the true purchaser of the weapon(s)."

5TH CIRCUIT COURT RULING:

"We find that the Government's construction of 167; 922(a)(6)
sweeps too broadly so that the evidence is insufficient to
support a conviction on Count 6.(7)
Although 167; 922(a)(6) on its face does not prohibit "straw
purchases," we have nonetheless held that such transactions
violate 167; 922(a)(6). See, e.g., United States v. Ortiz-Loya,
777 F.2d 973, 979 (5th Cir. 1985). It is clear to us--indeed,
the plain language of the statute compels the conclusion--that
167; 922(a)(6) criminalizes false statements that are intended
to deceive federal firearms dealers with respect to facts material
to the "lawfulness of the sale" of firearms. (Emphasis added.)
Thus, if the true purchaser can lawfully purchase a
firearm directly, 167; 922(a)(6) liability (under a "straw
purchase" theory) does not attach.
See, e.g., Barrett v. United States, 423 U.S. 212, 220, 96 S.Ct.
498, 503, 46 L.Ed.2d 450 (1976) (holding that purpose of
167; 922(a)( 6) was "'to make it possible to keep firearms
out of the hands of those not legally entitled to possess them
because of age, criminal background, or incompetency'"
(quoting S.Rep. No. 1501, 90th Cong., 2d Sess. 22 (1968) U.S. Code
Cong. & Admin. News 1968 p. 4410)); United States v. Moore,
109 F.3d 1456, 1460-61 (9th Cir. 1997) (en banc), petition for
cert. filed, ---- U.S.L.W. ---- (U.S. June 2, 1997) (No. 96-9227);
United States v. White, 451 F.2d 696, 699 (5th Cir. 1971)
("One goal sought by Congress [through 167; 922(a)(6)] was control
over the ease with which criminals may acquire firearms."), cert.
denied, 405 U.S. 998, 92 S.Ct. 1268, 31 L.Ed.2d 468 (1972).(8) "


Technically, this is valid only for the Fifth Circuit jurisdiction.
New York or California would probably have their knickers in bind.

It appears that if the son can legally own a gun, the father can
buy the gun as a gift to his son, just as I could legally buy a
gun as a gift for my son with my daughter-in-law's money.

SO EVERYONE TAKE A DEEP BREATH AND CHILL OUT.

middy
January 4, 2006, 02:55 PM
So your Dad buys a gun as a gift for you, and you give him $500 cash for a Fathers' Day present. Big deal.

Honestly, you'd think the BATFE had agents under everyones' beds the way some of you carry on.

TechBrute
January 4, 2006, 03:08 PM
.

Stiletto Null
January 4, 2006, 04:16 PM
He's got a point. It might be technically illegal, but you have to consider the original intention of the law: keeping random people from buying guns for other random people (specifically criminals).

It's kind of like speeding when it's bright and sunny on a straightaway, no cops around, no traffic of any sort to hit: the law says you shouldn't do it, but does anybody seriously care?

joab
January 4, 2006, 07:33 PM
just as I could legally buy a
gun as a gift for my son with my daughter-in-law's money. That would be a straw purchase. To be legal it would have to be ourchased with your own money as out lined in the paragraph from the back of 4473 that I posted above.

It's not rocket science people
How many damn ignore lists can I posibly be on ?

Example:
Mr. Smith asks Mr. Jones to purchase a firearm for Mr. Smith. Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out this form, he will violate the law.

However, if Mr. Jones buys a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones may lawfully complete this form.

A licensee who knowingly delivers a firearm to an individual who is not buying the firearm for himself or herself or as a gift violates the law by maintaining a false ATFF 4473.

Moonclip
January 5, 2006, 12:23 AM
I'd just go to a gunshow if legal in my area and purchase a handgun or two private sale if under 21. Or else hint real well on what I'd like at Bday and Xmas time! Also, is'nt it illegal for a dealer to sell ammo for use in a handgun to someone under 21?

Lupinus
January 5, 2006, 12:29 AM
Yes it is, my response to that would simply buy over the internet in bulk, cheaper anyways.

22-rimfire
January 5, 2006, 12:58 AM
Sorry, this is getting boring. If you aren't old enough to buy a handgun through a FFL, then you either buy it from a private individual assuming you're 18. If parent wants to gift the gun to you, it's legal. Wait until you're 21. It's just another year.

Life is too short. Youth is wasted on the young. Patience is a virtue.

goings_51
January 5, 2006, 12:59 AM
I used to be manager at a very large retail store and I had to sign off on the "yellow sheets" for every gun that left the store. As far as the store is concearned, they need to believe the gun will be owned by whoever fills out the paperwork. However, gifts are not prohibited under the law.

Why not just have your parents "own" it until you are 21 and the "give" it to you? Where it is stored in the mean time is nobody's business. As far as the money goes, cash is still untracable (unless Bush has managed to tap that as well).

palerider1
January 5, 2006, 01:14 AM
have your mom or dad legally buy the gun, and you can shoot it with them. this kind of straw purchase is understandably acceptable at most gun shops, which "legal or not by the letter of the law" is normally done. i have bought my children firearms before in this manner,,,(responsibly of course) example ,,,,i bought my 14 year old a 10/22 which he paid for with his own money, and is not allowed to use it without me, until he completes his hunter safety training course and can legally use it with a small game license,,,,ex 2 i bought my 9 year old a single shot youth 22 with special locking mechanisms controlled by a key in my gunsafe. she avidly shoots it "alone" with me and i teach her correct gun safety. this kind of straw purchase is different because it is a parent who is trained in gun safety passing on knowledge and accepting total responsability for the purchase and use of the firearm. that is the way i grew up, and that is the way my children will grow up. i have children who i will not do this with because they are not mature enough to teach, or who will properly follow instruction, so i pick and choose based on each and everyones personality and maturity. i have 6 sons and 4 daughters, and each one reguardless of their age is at a different level.

thank god for our freedoms!!!!!!

palerider1

TechBrute
January 5, 2006, 09:21 AM
Sounds like this discussion is going to go on until you can legally buy it yourself. Good grief, who's going to turn you in? Your Dad?

Carl N. Brown
January 6, 2006, 01:22 PM
Extracted quotes from BATFE www.atf.gov:
A "straw purchase" is a situation in which a person is using a
"straw purchaser"(another person) to acquire one or more firearms
from a Federally licensed firearms dealer, to hide the identity of
the true purchaser or ultimate possessor of the firearm/s. ... this
is the most common way that prohibited people, such as convicted
felons, and drug traffickers, obtain firearms.
......
(in case discussed) The defendants admitted that Land and another
individual represented in these statements that they were the actual
buyers of the firearms, when in fact they were purchased for Baugh
and Johnson, who are barred as convicted felons from owning or
possessing firearms.
.......
Since 2001, Attorney General John Ashcroft has directed U.S. Attorneys
to target individuals who lie in order to obtain a firearm they could
not legally purchase, as well as straw purchasers.
.......
http://www.atf.gov/firearms/ffrrg/theater/toon4.html


For years a person buying a gun as a gift for a qualified
family member has been regarded by courts and the ATF as the
actual purchaser of the gun. The "gifting" is a legal private
transfer. As long as the recipient of the gift is qualified
to purchase a firearm and is a family member, courts and ATF
have not treated these gift transfers as "straw purchases."

Summarizing in lay terms the Fifth Circuit Court of Appeals
ruling in Case No. 96-40836, USA v Charles Ray Polk,
17 July 1997, we have:

Count 6: Aiding and Abetting a False Statement to a Licensee
in the Acquisition of a Firearm

This involved several "straw purchases" by confidential
informant Davidson on behalf of accused Polk. At that time,
Polk had no criminal convictions or other liabilities to
prevent him from buying a gun in person.

The prosecution argued: "that Davidson's purchases were
"straw purchase" transactions because, notwithstanding the
fact that Polk could lawfully purchase firearms, Davidson
falsely informed a federally licensed firearms dealer that
he was the true purchaser of the weapons."

The Fifth Circuit argued: "It is clear to us--indeed, the
plain language of the statute compels the conclusion--that
922(a)(6) criminalizes false statements that are intended
to deceive federal firearms dealers with respect to facts
material to the "lawfulness of the sale" of firearms. ...
Thus, if the true purchaser can lawfully purchase a firearm
directly, 922(a)(6) liability (under a "straw purchase"
theory) does not attach."

The Fifth Circuit observed that court rulings had held that:
"922(a)(6) was " `to make it possible to keep firearms out
of the hands of those not legally entitled to possess them
because of age, criminal background, or incompetency' " "
and that: "One goal sought by Congress [through 922(a)(6)]
was control over the ease with which criminals may acquire
firearms."

The Fifth Circuit concluded: "Here, it is undisputed that
Polk could have lawfully purchased firearms from Liberty
Sports, that CI Davidson was in the "business" of buying and
selling firearms, that Davidson did not purchase weapons
solely for Polk, and that Polk's participation in the alleged
crime consisted of nothing more than a request to purchase
firearms. Under these facts, we find that no reasonable jury
could have convicted Polk beyond a reasonable doubt for
aiding and abetting a violation of 922(a)(6).9"

Given that a man (Polk) whose convictions on counts:
(1) Attempted Use of a Weapon of Mass Destruction;
(2) and (3) Solicitation to Commit Crimes of Violence and
(5) Unlawful Possession of a Machine Gun
were upheld on appeal, had a conviction vacated on
(6) Aiding and Abetting False Statement to a Licensee in the
Acquisition of a Firearm ("straw purchase"),
for the reasons given by the Fifth District Court, it is
difficult to see how that Court would rule differently in
the case of a father buying a gun as a gift for a son who
is legally entitled to lawfully purchase and own firearms,
particularly if the son is already in possession of lawfully
purchased firearms.

Polk was an un-convicted criminal having an un-related party,
confidential informant Davidson, buy guns for him, and the
conviction on "straw purchase" was vacated because at the
time of the purchase, Polk was qualified to purchase in person.
To believe that a son having a father buy a gun as a gift
would be treated more harshly by that court is hard to accept.

Violating the intent of the Law as passed by Congress is
one thing; the rules and regulations promulgated to enforce
that law can get really sticky as time passes. And the rules
and regulations tend to take precedence over the intent of
Congress in passing the law in the first place.

The Fifth Court noted in 1997:
"We note a marked difference in the "straw purchase" warning
on the reverse side of the August 1994 version of ATF Form 4473
and the April 1991 version of that same form. The April 1991
warning states that a "straw purchase" may violate federal
firearms laws if the licensee knows and has reasonable cause to
believe that the true purchaser of the firearm(s) is "ineligible"
to make that purchase directly.

"By contrast, the August 1994 version of Form 4473
significantly broadens the definition of "straw purchase"
transactions: "A `straw purchase' occurs when the actual buyer
uses another person (the straw purchaser) to execute ATF
Form 4473 purporting to show that the straw purchaser is the
actual buyer." See, e.g., United States v. Moore, 84 F.3d 1567,
1571 (9th Cir. 1996) (noting the different interpretations of
illegal "straw purchase" transactions), on rehearing en banc,
109 F.3d 1456 (9th Cir. 1997) (en banc).""

NOW, the 2005 version of the 4473 warning on "straw purchase"
adds language that the FUNDS used to purchase the gun must be
the purchaser's funds.

The intention of this regulation appears to be to prevent a
person unqualified from purchasing a gun giving funds to
a qualified party to make the purchase for the unqualified
party.

Straw Purchase is becoming a minefield full of tripwires.

Sometimes I feel like I am trapped in a Franz Kafka or
George Orwell novel.

Northslope Nimrod
January 6, 2006, 05:40 PM
Straw purchase is defined more broadly by dealers than it is by the BATF. There are straw purchases in fact and there are straw purchases that are illegal. These threads may confuse you. THEREFORE, DO THIS:

See if your pops will simply buy it and then gift it to you. Who knows, in a few years, he may want it back and you can square it up then.

Moonclip
January 6, 2006, 06:17 PM
Yes it is, my response to that would simply buy over the internet in bulk, cheaper anyways.

Don't most places make you sign a statement saying you are over 21 years old and/or send in a copy of DL or ID? For those under 21 though Wal Mart simply asks if the ammo such as 22lr or 9x19 is for use in a long gun or pistol and then the cash register asks if you are over 21 or 18 accordingly.

Wal Mart is not that dumb though as when you buy something like 25acp, it does not ask if it is for a long gun though I still like to tell the clerk I have a long gun in 25acp even though I'm over 21:)

joab
January 6, 2006, 06:27 PM
As long as the recipient of the gift is qualified
to purchase a firearm and is a family member, courts and ATF
have not treated these gift transfers as "straw purchases."
From form 4473:banghead: :banghead:
Mr. Smith gives Mr. Jones the money for the firearm. If Mr. Jones fills out this form, he will violate the law.
However, if Mr. Jones buys a firearm with his own money to give to Mr. Smith as a birthday present, Mr. Jones may lawfully complete this form.

Nothing to do with prohibitted peole or family members

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