Mexico: Walls won't stop migrants


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rick_reno
January 2, 2006, 07:03 PM
Tally Ho! Gotta love their spirit - it's resolve like this - combined the Bush "guest worker" program - that will have them taking this country over in another decade.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/01/02/immigrant.shot.ap/index.html

MEXICO CITY, Mexico (AP) -- The death of a Mexican man shot by U.S. authorities while trying to sneak into California proves that extending border walls will not curb illegal immigration, President Vicente Fox's office said Monday.

Guillermo Martinez died Saturday in a Tijuana hospital, a day after he was shot by a U.S. Border Patrol agent near a metal wall separating that city from San Diego, according to prosecutors in Baja California state.

Authorities said Martinez was on the Mexican side of the border at the time, but may have picked up rocks and made motions as if to throw them at the U.S. agent.

Baja California Gov. Eugenio Elorduy said in a statement that U.S. officials were investigating the shooting. But U.S. authorities on Monday could not confirm that.

At his briefing with reporters in Mexico City, Fox spokesman Ruben Aguilar said the government "laments and condemns" Martinez's death, and is demanding an investigation.

"This occurrence does no more than provide evidence that only a law that guarantees legal entry and is respectful of human rights can resolve the migratory problem both countries face," Aguilar said.

A bill passed by the U.S. House of Representatives on December. 16 would build more border fences, make illegal entry a felony and enlist military and local police to help stop undocumented migrants. (Full story) The U.S. Senate is expected to address the matter in February.

Mexico has bitterly opposed the House bill, which Foreign Relations Secretary Luis Ernesto Derbez branded as "stupid and underhanded." Fox has called it shameful.

Aguilar again attacked the measure Monday, saying "walls and police crackdowns never will resolve migration problems."

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lostone1413
January 2, 2006, 07:14 PM
The Republic is dead. To bad King George and the rest of the nit wits in DC don't worry about are borders as much as they do the borders in Iraq. Over 1 million a year just walk into this country. All of the politicans and King George himself should be tried for treason. Brave Americans getting killed to protect the borders in Iraq and we have leadership that cares nothing about are sovereignty. With a million just walking into this country anyone really believe the war in Iraq has anything to do with Terrorism? I'ts all about control of their oil.

Biker
January 2, 2006, 07:57 PM
Well, that's one...
Biker

NorthernExtreme
January 2, 2006, 07:58 PM
Can we just vote ********** out of the union? Something, Anything, Please!

Brasso
January 2, 2006, 08:07 PM
I've officially given up. Have at it amigos. Liberty is dead.

silverlance
January 2, 2006, 08:12 PM
... i don't understand what people mean by "libery is dead" in relation to this incident. personally, i think a cheap 16ft chain link, barbed wire fense is good enough. if they cut through, fix it. we fix the fences at my HS every week. if they get through, let em. if they die in the desert, let them. if they make it through and get a job, good for them. if they cause problems, send them back and bill the mexican govt. if they turn criminal, SSS.

motorep
January 2, 2006, 08:15 PM
I doubt that terrorists are cutting your school fence to gain illegal entry. I don't doubt that terrorists have, and will continue to, enter our country through it's open borders.

4ME&MYHOUSE
January 2, 2006, 08:22 PM
"This occurrence does no more than provide evidence that only a law that guarantees legal entry and is respectful of human rights can resolve the migratory problem both countries face," Aguilar said.

Umm. I believe we are the country with the problem, they get less strain on their resources, and receive dolares back into their economy.

Phyphor
January 2, 2006, 08:24 PM
... i don't understand what people mean by "libery is dead" in relation to this incident. personally, i think a cheap 16ft chain link, barbed wire fense is good enough. if they cut through, fix it. we fix the fences at my HS every week. if they get through, let em. if they die in the desert, let them. if they make it through and get a job, good for them. if they cause problems, send them back and bill the mexican govt. if they turn criminal, SSS.

You forgot something. The 20KV generator we should hook up to said fence.... We could probably either make it solar powered or wind fan powered, so there'd be little cost involved....

What, the mexican "government" doesn't like this idea? Since when should we care?
:evil:

BuddyOne
January 2, 2006, 08:33 PM
Phyphor, if your M1 Thumb was anything like mine, the first thirty seconds were a real awakening!!!

Welcome to the group.

Buddy

BuddyOne
January 2, 2006, 08:40 PM
He's right. Walls won't stop ilegal immigration.

It wasn't a wall that stopped the illegal immigrant in California. It was a bullet.

Are we on to something?

Buddy

dasmi
January 2, 2006, 08:53 PM
Can we just vote ********** out of the union? Something, Anything, Please!
I know it's always in fashion to get in a California shot, but Arizona and Texas would have to go as well. They get their fair shair of illegal entry.

Standing Wolf
January 2, 2006, 09:27 PM
Jorge Bush is spending billions upon billions of dollars in Iraq, but nothing to defend the nation's borders. Is Mrs. Snopes Clinton shrewd enough to hire people who are bright enough to make an issue of that?

longeyes
January 2, 2006, 09:33 PM
The Republic is dead. To bad King George and the rest of the nit wits in DC don't worry about are borders as much as they do the borders in Iraq. Over 1 million a year just walk into this country. All of the politicans and King George himself should be tried for treason. Brave Americans getting killed to protect the borders in Iraq and we have leadership that cares nothing about are sovereignty. With a million just walking into this country anyone really believe the war in Iraq has anything to do with Terrorism? I'ts all about control of their oil.

Shhhhhhhhhssssssh. That's classified.

A wall can be very effective, especially one made of illegal aliens.

exoduster18
January 2, 2006, 11:10 PM
silverlance - Don't them in, make them all die in the desert. If they want to do it legally and become a U.S. Citizen, then what do they have to fear? But most of them are doing it illegally, with no intention to become actual citizens. And then they want our, as in actual citizens, benefits. They don't deserve those. I don't about you, but I don't want to pay out benefits to people that do nothing for them other than jump a fence to come here. And an HS is a little bit more different than the protection of the United States.

Waitone
January 2, 2006, 11:41 PM
The Republic is dead. To bad King George and the rest of the nit wits in DC don't worry about are borders as much as they do the borders in Iraq. Over 1 million a year just walk into this country. All of the politicans and King George himself should be tried for treason. Brave Americans getting killed to protect the borders in Iraq and we have leadership that cares nothing about are sovereignty. With a million just walking into this country anyone really believe the war in Iraq has anything to do with Terrorism? I'ts all about control of their oil.Good points that get lost when you start in on Iraq and oil. If oil was the issue, it would a sight easier to go to Mexico and take their oil. Nope, oil is a bad excuse for impeachment.

Now let's talk about failure to protect the border. Let's talk about failure to enforce duly constituted law. Let's talk about suborning national sovereignty with his endorcement of the North American Community proposal. Let's talk about national sovereignty and the Free Trade Agreement of the Americas "agreement" which is coming up for a vote most likely after the election. Let's talk about Bush's "guest worker program" and social security totalization. Let's talk about a lot of what I consider to be at least unAmerican proposals coming out of this president. Instead we get "Iraq for Oil" blather. You guys want to nail Bush? Change the hammer and you'd be surprised at the support you will pick up.

another okie
January 2, 2006, 11:41 PM
Make it a civil offense with a set rate of damages to hire an illegal alien and allow anyone to sue the person or company who hired an illegal alien. That would dry it up pretty quickly.

meef
January 2, 2006, 11:53 PM
Make it a civil offense with a set rate of damages to hire an illegal alien and allow anyone to sue the person or company who hired an illegal alien. That would dry it up pretty quickly.
Come on now.... that's way too logical. Get real.

:(

yonderway
January 3, 2006, 12:25 AM
I know the border patrol is hurting for money these days, but if they're going to do more of this kind of enforcement I'd like to send them a case of ammo.

bnolsen
January 3, 2006, 12:32 AM
That wall needs to be me made entirely of lead. That would deter it a bit.

Not to mention eliminating any and all access to public services.

Perhaps even get brutal enough to revoke citizenship for those who aid and abet these illegals.

But I will come out and say taht we have to reform our legal immigration policy.

It took me over a year to get my wife legally into the US. That's just a load of freaking crap and makes me even madder that politicians would turn a blind eye to the illegal immigration.

The_Antibubba
January 3, 2006, 12:50 AM
When we're done in Iraq, can we liberate the Mexican people from their oppressive government?

MICHAEL T
January 3, 2006, 01:05 AM
Which is cheaper Bullets or fence. Make it a million bucks fine per illegal hired for company and mantory 10 years for person doing hireing per person.

cz75bdneos22
January 3, 2006, 01:09 AM
i 'll be the first to admit. i have not researche the topic yet...i've heard some comments and opinions so far...if i'm not mistaken, it will "cost"/budgeted $41 billion dollars...:what: isn't there a better way to spend that money on America/ns infrastructure...care to know who will truly benefit? i do...but "it's to keep the immigrant out of our soil"...yeah! right...where have i heard that story before...uhmmm! what do i know, anyways..:scrutiny:

kage genin
January 3, 2006, 01:28 AM
The death of a Mexican man shot by U.S. authorities while trying to sneak into California proves that extending border walls will not curb illegal immigration, President Vicente Fox's office said Monday.
Now shooting them, on the other hand...:D

+1 to Buddyone. It's becoming obvious that a more physical and permanent response to illegal inva..er.. 'immigration' is needed. I think the wall is a great symbolic gesture merely by the fact that the bill met with such overwhelming support. Should tell our leadership (ala Bush) that the 'guest worker' program is NOT going to be good enough.

Rem700SD
January 3, 2006, 02:13 AM
I may be fuzzy on this, but as I recall, we didn't ratify/sign the last int'l land mine treaty. We could transplant a few from the Korean border....just a thought.

longeyes
January 3, 2006, 02:22 AM
i've heard some comments and opinions so far...if i'm not mistaken, it will "cost"/budgeted $41 billion dollars... isn't there a better way to spend that money on America/ns infrastructure...care to know who will truly benefit? i do...but "it's to keep the immigrant out of our soil"...yeah! right...where have i heard that story before...uhmmm! what do i know, anyways..

I wouldn't trust the numbers cited. All are politically loaded. But money isn't really the issue; the issue is the preservation of our nation, of our culture, and, more to the point, who really runs America, the citizens at large or the elites.

Odds are, we are not getting even close to building any serious fence, and we all know why. Same reason we are not going to really penalize employers, stop welfare and social service give-aways, block transfer payments back to Mexico, etc. THE BIG BOYS DON'T WANT IT, PERIOD. If we want to change this situation we are going to have to accept the daunting reality of who we are up against and decide how best to play the game to win.

ghost squire
January 3, 2006, 02:47 AM
it would a sight easier to go to Mexico and take their oil.

If you honestly believe that I feel sorry for you. But I think you really don't.

cz75bdneos22
January 3, 2006, 02:56 AM
I wouldn't trust the numbers cited. All are politically loaded. But money isn't really the issue; the issue is the preservation of our nation, of our culture, and, more to the point, who really runs America, the citizens at large or the elites.

Odds are, we are not getting even close to building any serious fence, and we all know why. Same reason we are not going to really penalize employers, stop welfare and social service give-aways, block transfer payments back to Mexico, etc. THE BIG BOYS DON'T WANT IT, PERIOD. If we want to change this situation we are going to have to accept the daunting reality of who we are up against and decide how best to play the game to win.


the game we will be spectating has been rigged from the start and we have been sold a ticket to it...what wagers we lose...big or little will be up to us...but we know what the end holds for us already...:mad: i don't like fixed games!!!:scrutiny:

RealGun
January 3, 2006, 01:58 PM
Let's get away from the notion of shooting people trying to cross the border. It's not going to be sanctioned, no way, no how, until there is no longer a good reason for simple worker type people wanting to enter the country illegally. As long as women and children are regularly in the mix, you just can't do it with any public disclosure.

Biker
January 3, 2006, 02:12 PM
True enough, but if a few rock-throwers are dealt with harshly, I have no problems with it at all. There are very few optinons I'm opposed to at this point.
I truly view them as invaders and a real threat to my country on a number of levels.
Biker

longeyes
January 3, 2006, 03:22 PM
Let's get away from the notion of shooting people trying to cross the border. It's not going to be sanctioned, no way, no how, until there is no longer a good reason for simple worker type people wanting to enter the country illegally. As long as women and children are regularly in the mix, you just can't do it with any public disclosure.

We've already permitted 20 million to come in. You want another 50 million?--because that is exactly what you are going to have. You think the welfare costs are big now? Just wait. Mexico wll be our biggest welfare client in ten years, with the approval of whoever's in the White House and the Social Security Administratioin.

I think, even if you accept the claim that we need low-cost labor (I don't), we've filled our unskilled labor slots by now, don't you? Where are the next 50 million going to work? Doing what?

longeyes
January 3, 2006, 03:25 PM
Mexico is right: Walls WON'T stop them.

We have the right strategy in dealing with Al-Qaeda: take the war, aggressively, to the people causing the problem. For some reason we choose not to do that in THIS war--and war it certainly is. We need a strategy that attacks the employers, the bureaucratic welfare mafia, and the political maggots on both sides of the border. The people walking across are, in the end, only a symptom of the real problems.

c_yeager
January 3, 2006, 03:35 PM
MEXICO CITY, Mexico (AP) -- The death of a Mexican man shot by U.S. authorities while trying to sneak into California proves that extending border walls will not curb illegal immigration, President Vicente Fox's office said Monday.


It seems to me that this instance doesnt prove anything of the sort. The man never made it past the border, so it seems to have worked quite well. I expect a little bit better reasoning to come from the supreme authority of a nation. There are a dozen valid arguments that could be made, but this one doesnt hold water.

wingman
January 3, 2006, 03:58 PM
We hear and see so much spin(lies) about this subject, we daily are given mass amounts of propaganda on how good our economy is that we need immigrant labor, etc.

For someone my age who has lived thru various hard times I have a different point of view, we outsource jobs we lose manufacturing jobs daily we continue to import under educated workers,large percertage of our children of all races drop out of high school. It now takes two members of a family working to support the Amrican dream and much of the time that is on borrowed money. We simply need to ask our selves what quality of life we want, do we want better lives for all or just the wealthy. In order to maintain "some" freedom and quality of life we must protect out borders and have controlled legal immigration.

Hawkmoon
January 3, 2006, 11:25 PM
Does anyone know how much of the border is public land and how much is privately-owned? What if enough concerned people collected money to at least wall off the private segments? I wonder if the land owners would welcome it (as long as they didn't have to pay) or oppose it?

Malodorousroadkill
January 4, 2006, 02:03 AM
Wall will not work as long as mexicans are willing to come here, and businesses are willing to hire them. Crack down on the scumbags willing to hire illegals. If there is no work for them, they're not going to come so much. Then crack down on the use of financal, medical, and educational aid rendered to them. Hell, make Mexico fit the bill. For every illegal caught, Mexico should have to pay their 'rent' and 'upkeep' while under our care. Other than that, shooting anyone crossing the fence is the few things that might scare them into staying out. But would that really work any better than Sharks with friggin' lasers? Doubtful. Threat of death won't stop everyone. Look at E. Germany.

longeyes
January 4, 2006, 03:00 AM
We can propose all the effective solutions we want to this problem. NO ONE IS LISTENING. If they were and wanted to turn this around, they would have long ago. They have their own plan and are, slowly but surely, moving to enact it whether we like it or not. Unless and until we put serious pressure directly on the President and on Congress, it's all moot.

CAnnoneer
January 4, 2006, 03:06 AM
All-in-all, this is good news. Now rock-throwers and shooters know that such crap will no longer be tolerated by the border patrol. It may also discourage some would-be illegals from breaking our laws. It is also a pleasant surprise that no local fifth-columnists have filed a lawsuit.

CAnnoneer
January 4, 2006, 03:18 AM
NO ONE IS LISTENING.

I for one had positive interactions with the local congressman Schiff ( or at least his email staff). He seems to be quite active in the area and one of the staunch supporters of the wall bill. If enough voters in the country bother to write to their congressman and apply well-phrased appropriate pressure, things will change for the better. The system is not yet corrupt enough to preclude such a change IMO.

Senators, IMO, are a totally different story. There are way too few of them, so they have the luxury of viewing any individual voter as irrelevant statistic. Sometimes, I truly wonder what the point of the Senate is, especially taking into account it no longer represents the state governments. In essence, senators seem like Uber-Congressmen, with more power and less accountability. They deeply disgust me (then again I live in Cali).

longeyes
January 4, 2006, 03:33 AM
You know, I hope you're right. I've been looking through some Abramoff articles. If we had a parliamentary system, someone would be pushing the "DISSOLVE GOVERNMENT" button about now. Pretty much all of them have to go.

SilentStalker
January 4, 2006, 03:39 AM
I wouldn't trust the numbers cited. All are politically loaded. But money isn't really the issue; the issue is the preservation of our nation, of our culture, and, more to the point, who really runs America, the citizens at large or the elites.

Odds are, we are not getting even close to building any serious fence, and we all know why. Same reason we are not going to really penalize employers, stop welfare and social service give-aways, block transfer payments back to Mexico, etc. THE BIG BOYS DON'T WANT IT, PERIOD. If we want to change this situation we are going to have to accept the daunting reality of who we are up against and decide how best to play the game to win.

We all know that the elitists run this country. The people in position are just decoys set gain the publics attention from what is really going on. We are all pawns in a grandiose game, the problem is that most of the general public cannot figure that out. I bet you money that in say 20 years, liberated Iraq will come after us with weapons and money that we supplied them LOL. War is nothing more than a big scam to earn a lot of people a lot of money. The sad thing is that it is costly to those that are pawns such as soldiers/the public etc. but you know the drill it is all in the best interest of our country LOL. Man I could write so much crap on this it is not even funny. Needless to say there is a higher power at work here other than the politicians the public gets to see on the 5 o'clock news.


Mexico is right: Walls WON'T stop them.

We have the right strategy in dealing with Al-Qaeda: take the war, aggressively, to the people causing the problem. For some reason we choose not to do that in THIS war--and war it certainly is. We need a strategy that attacks the employers, the bureaucratic welfare mafia, and the political maggots on both sides of the border. The people walking across are, in the end, only a symptom of the real problems.

You are 100% correct my friend.

shecky
January 4, 2006, 04:11 AM
The truth is that illegal immigrants cross the border because you want them to. Every time you want inexpensive food, some constructed, floors swept, toilets cleaned, etc, you vote for illegal immigration.... with your dollars. Illegal immigrants don't have to shove their low wage labor down the throats of the American people. We want it and ask for more.

The stupidest thing is that most Americans are incomplete denial about the nature of supply and demand, which also exists in the labor market. If there is a demand, there will be a supply. And given that unemployment rate has been in the mid single digits for a long time, it's hard to argue that illegal immigrants are indeed taking any jobs from citizens. If anything, that would indicate they are a net positive influence on teh economy.

I say if illegal immigrants are enterprising enough to run the country in ten years, they deserve to have it.

Camp David
January 4, 2006, 10:43 AM
Mexico is right: Walls WON'T stop them...

Mexico is right? News for you=> The wall is being built to keep Mexico out! :uhoh: As far as whether it will work, the Wall of China worked, the wall dividing Germany worked, and other walls work... who cares what Mexico thinks or feels about this wall?

We have known, for at least 100 years, that illegal immigration from Mexico, a historically poor country, would be problematic. The last decade this problem has escalated. The INS is incapable of handling the problem. The American people are crying out for solutions. BUILD A WALL. A BIG ONE.

Task the U.S. Army, Corps of Engineers, to start. 22 feet high at least with razor wire topping, from Texas to California. BUILD IT NOW.

Janitor
January 4, 2006, 10:49 AM
Threat of death won't stop everyone. Look at E. Germany.
That was very different. In E. Germany, people trying to escape the country were being shot at by their own countrymen, while escape was being aided by those on the other side of the wall.

In this case, the opposite is true. The Mexican government is trying to help it's citizens escape from their own country, and come to where they're not welcome. This is specifically why they're raising such a rucus about the threat of a wall. But you're right - threat of death won't stop everyone. Some of them will still throw rocks.
-

RealGun
January 4, 2006, 10:50 AM
Mexico is right? News for you=> The wall is being built to keep Mexico out! :uhoh: As far as whether it will work, the Wall of China worked, the wall dividing Germany worked, and other walls work... who cares what Mexico thinks or feels about this wall?

We have known, for at least 100 years, that illegal immigration from Mexico, a historically poor country, would be problematic. The last decade this problem has escalated. The INS is incapable of handling the problem. The American people are crying out for solutions. BUILD A WALL. A BIG ONE.

Task the U.S. Army, Corps of Engineers, to start. 22 feet high at least with razor wire topping, from Texas to California. BUILD IT NOW.

No. Sorry. The German wall only worked because they were willing to shoot people attempting to cross. The US situation is simpler. We only have to remove economic incentives for coming here. I don't know that Mexicans are fleeing any political oppression.

Camp David
January 4, 2006, 10:59 AM
We only have to remove economic incentives for coming here..Make America as poor as Mexico???????

I don't know that Mexicans are fleeing any political oppression.They're fleeing hunger and headed north!!!!

BTR
January 4, 2006, 11:03 AM
Is this gun related?

RealGun
January 4, 2006, 11:04 AM
Make America as poor as Mexico???????

Don't be silly. Make US jobs and public services unavailable to illegals.

They're fleeing hunger and headed north!!!!

There is no entitlement to come to the US as an alternative.

RealGun
January 4, 2006, 11:10 AM
Is this gun related?

Indirectly, in that some propose shooting people crossing the border. I think that is bad juju.

Camp David
January 4, 2006, 11:15 AM
Make US jobs and public services unavailable to illegals...
It's already illegal to hire an illegal alien!!!! That law has been on the books for a while...Companies need to collect Social Security numbers for all employees, except a small number of documented migrant workers who work agriculture under a special program... that's it..all other U.S. workers are suppose to be registered!

How in God's name are we suppose to make "U.S. jobs and public services unavailable" to illegals???? Let's put up a wall and cut off the supply!! Why are you against a wall???

Waitone
January 4, 2006, 11:17 AM
I find it interesting the number of posters willing to shoot unarmed civilians who are breaking the law. Change the topic from immigration to concealed carry and those who post such comments would be roundly criticized and rightly so.

If these posts are even remotely representative of the attitude of Joe and Martha Sixpack, the frustration level is quite high and bordering on taking extreme action. Our ruling class (those responsible for our current illegal border crossing mess) seems to be oblivious of the depth of animosity out there.

Said it before and I'll say it again. Revolutions begin in similar environments.

RealGun
January 4, 2006, 11:34 AM
It's already illegal to hire an illegal alien!!!! That law has been on the books for a while...Companies need to collect Social Security numbers for all employees, except a small number of documented migrant workers who work agriculture under a special program... that's it..all other U.S. workers are suppose to be registered!

How in God's name are we suppose to make "U.S. jobs and public services unavailable" to illegals???? Let's put up a wall and cut off the supply!! Why are you against a wall???

Obviously the problem is how easy it is to get a Social Security number. The law assumes that if you are here and are volunteering for SS deductions, you must be legal. Come on down! The Real ID card is an attempt at a solution.

I am "against a wall", i.e. building one, because I don't know how a wall would work without killing people, women and children included, trying to cross it. Not only that, but there would need to be a large bureaucracy created around the existence, management, and enforcement of such a wall. That's assuming there was a way to pay for building such a thing, only to be torn down later for political correctness reasons, probably before the wall expense was paid off.

The funny part is that cheap Mexican labor would probably not be in good supply for building this wall.;)

proud2deviate
January 4, 2006, 11:38 AM
Why not just take America to Mexico? We already support however many umpteen millions of their citizens. Take Mexico (I mean this quite literally. If you can't handle your country, you get it taken away and you go stand in the corner and think about what you did wrong.) and install American infrastructure. I have no problem with benevolent imperialism.

Much as I'd love to free the opressed the wolrd over, the fact of the matter is America isn't quite big enough for another 5.75 billion people. Either close the doors or make America bigger.

longeyes
January 4, 2006, 01:09 PM
Mexico is right? News for you=> The wall is being built to keep Mexico out! As far as whether it will work, the Wall of China worked, the wall dividing Germany worked, and other walls work... who cares what Mexico thinks or feels about this wall?

My poiint was that there are more effective ways to deal with this problem than building a wall but I am, in fact, FOR the wall, if only because it would at least reduce the amount of the flow. When I said Mexico is right I meant that I believe that a literal wall is not the best solution. I also have my doubts that any wall likely to be a real deterrrent is going to be built. And the reason for that is that for all the recent posturing the people who actually run America--and that's not those of us on this forum--don't want a wall and certainly don't want a cut-off in the influx of illegal aliens (aka cheap labor).

We keep coming back to the source: the politicians, on both sides of the border, who are letting this happen against the will of the people. Instead of being constructive we need to be destructive: that means finding ways to replace the politicians who are to blame with those more amenable to our views. We have elections coming up in a few months; that's a good place to get the message across.

belton-deer-hunter
January 4, 2006, 01:16 PM
i think i see this shooting of a mexican citizen as the battle cry for the comeing revelution. like mexicos rmember the alamo i think that that is going to be a very differnt type of conflict we cannot simoly send troops to mexico cause of the borders being so close it will be like a invasion of U.S. soil and if they alley them selves with china or russia to get the fire power and money the war will be jsut like the last two although this time on our soil.

longeyes
January 4, 2006, 01:20 PM
i think i see this shooting of a mexican citizen as the battle cry for the comeing revelution

We're definitely at a crossroads, amigo, no doubt about that.

Cosmoline
January 4, 2006, 01:26 PM
Make it a civil offense with a set rate of damages to hire an illegal alien and allow anyone to sue the person or company who hired an illegal alien. That would dry it up pretty quickly.

Yup. Until you hit the demand side, you can forget solving the problem. I've long advocated infiltrating the bunches of illegals on the street corners and busting the gringos who scream "DOS DOS" to get some cheap illegal labor for their garden projects. I have some sympathy for the illegal workers, but the folks who hire them like that deserve to have their faces blown off. It's the ultimate in lazy American hypocrisy.

Combine that with a very solid wall and the problem will become much less serious than it currently is. Putting illegals in US prisons will just eat up more US resources. Besides the people who pay the price should be the ones who benefit most from the illegal labor--specifically the agribusiness and employers who rely on illegal labor to keep the profits coming in. Start putting CEO's in prison for hiring illegals and I GUARANTEE it will stop overnight. But since much of the GOP warchest comes from these criminals, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

slzy
January 4, 2006, 01:30 PM
when i see a mexican flag in the united states,i may understand what some black people feel when they see a confederate flag.

Cosmoline
January 4, 2006, 01:32 PM
You're just seeing the true cost of cheap fruit and cheap labor.

longeyes
January 4, 2006, 01:38 PM
Most of us agree, I thinki, that removing the carrot FIRMLY is the best way to go (though not the only means available to us). We also agree that it's not going to happen because the people who profit most have friends in high places.

Ergo?

I see nothing short of a massive grass-roots movement that says a defiant NO to any pol who won't do what's necessary as the only viable course at this point. Unfortunately, though there's a lot of noise on the margins, much of the public, even those who are against the illegal influx, remains passive and unorganized. This is the kind of mass movement that becomes its own party, going beyond illegal immigration to the other issues--political representatiion is the essence--it impinges on.

Biker
January 4, 2006, 01:39 PM
It's already a Federal crime to knowingly hire an illegal. We just need to enforce existing laws. Guess that would be asking too much, huh? Just let a few gun owners start converting their ARs and AKs to full auto and see what happens.
Biker

lostone1413
January 4, 2006, 01:41 PM
when i see a mexican flag in the united states,i may understand what some black people feel when they see a confederate flag.

To me the Confederate flag never stood for slavery. The Civil War wasn't about slavery. The North brought slavery in to gain sympathy for the Northern side. The Civil War was about states rights. What was going on before the civil war was the start of the death of the Republic.

Sindawe
January 4, 2006, 01:55 PM
Washington Orchard Workers Win Class Certification in Suit Against Major Grower

First-of-its-kind suit claims apple growers intentionally hired illegal immigrants to depress legal workers' pay


July 14, 2004

YAKIMA, Wash. - A group of legal immigrants residing in Washington state's apple-producing Yakima Valley won a major legal victory yesterday after a U.S. District Court judge certified a class action lawsuit against executives of one of the state's largest orchard owners charging that the executives conspired to depress farmworkers' wages by hiring large numbers of illegal workers to set low wage standards for orchard and packing house work.

The class action lawsuit was originally filed in United States District Court in March of 2000 under the Federal Racketeer and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO) and is the first of its kind in the U.S. where legal workers have sued agricultural employers about intentional wage depression through the use of illegal labor.

Now certified as a class action, the suit represents an estimated 20,000 packing house and orchard workers of Zirkle Fruit Company, based in Selah, Washington and those legal workers hired by Selective Employment Agency to work in Zirkle's packing house operations.

Seattle attorney Steve Berman filed the lawsuit on behalf of three named plaintiffs.

"We know from our investigation that a large percentage of workers hired by Zirkle are illegal. These workers know that they are not in any position to demand a fair wage, and as a result, illegally depress the wages of legal farm workers." Berman said. "It is an insidious cycle that exploits the illegal workers and victimizes the legal ones."

According to the lawsuit, Zirkle Fruit Co. conspired with Selective Employment Agency to hire illegal immigrants who would work at below prevailing wage standards at Zirkle's packing house. The company used Selective Employment as a front, buffering it from liability with the U.S. Immigration and Naturalization Service (INS), the suit claims.

"We believe Zirkle's actions are horridly unfair to the immigrant workers who have taken the legal channels to work here-making sacrifices at every step of the way to create a better life for their families," Berman added.

The suit seeks an end to the practice by Zirkle, and compensation for the class members.

The judge declined to certify similar claims against executives of Matson Fruit Company, a smaller fruit company named in the original complaint.

The U.S. General Accounting Office estimates more than 600,000 farmworkers across the country are employed illegally. About 52,000 workers work illegally in Washington in all types of jobs, according to estimates by the INS.

The court also ordered that class members be notified of the class action by mail and signs in the workplace, an action Berman believes will happen in the coming weeks. As an opt-out lawsuit, those who do not wish to be represented by the class action will receive instructions on removing themselves from the case.


Media Contact:

Mark Firmani
2505 2nd Avenue
Suite 700
Seattle, WA 98121
Phone: 206.443.9357
E-mail: Mark Firmani

Source: http://www.hagens-berman.com/farm_workers.htm
&Zirkle settles job suit
By LEAH BETH WARD
YAKIMA HERALD-REPUBLIC


William Zirkle has agreed to pay $1.3 million to settle a lawsuit accusing him and two other executives at the Selah-based fruit company of conspiring to hire thousands of illegal immigrants in order to keep wages low.

The executives admitted no wrongdoing in the settlement. The corporation, Zirkle Fruit, was not a defendant.

"Mr. Zirkle knows no one did anything wrong," Ryan Edgley, his lawyer, said Thursday. "Mr. Zirkle primarily wanted to put an end to the uncertainty."

The case was set for trial Jan. 9 before U.S. District Court Judge Fred Van Sickle.

Edgley said the defendants were concerned that even if they prevailed before a jury, the plaintiffs would appeal and the legal defense bills would continue to mount.

"Frankly my client's confidence in the system was shaken in this case," Edgley said.

Had Zirkle lost at trial, he and the other
defendants, Gary Hudson and William Wangler, could have faced triple damages under the federal Racketeer Influenced and Corrupt Organizations Act (RICO).

The case obtained class-action status in 2004, which increased the number of legal workers potentially eligible for damages to 20,000,

Chicago lawyer Howard Foster filed the case in 2000 using RICO in a novel way. Although Van Sickle dismissed the case in 2001, Foster won at the 9th Circuit Court of Appeals in 2002.

Foster could not be reached for comment Thursday. But he told a local radio station that the settlement was unique among the types of immigration cases he has brought.

Foster, who writes occasionally for an anti-immigration Web journal called VDARE.com, is using RICO with mixed results. The U.S. Supreme Court could bring some certainty to the matter next year when it hears a case against Mohawk Industries. The Georgia carpet company is accused of hiring illegal workers and depressing the wages of legal workers.

Edgley said he wanted to go to trial and thinks the settlement will encourage Foster to sue more employers just to get them to settle.

"I was confident we were going to win," he said. "This only emboldens him to continue with what is really just a misuse of the system, in my opinion."

Source: http://www.yakima-herald.com/page/dis/329979269647027

RELEASE THE ATTACK LAWYERS!!! :evil:

belton-deer-hunter
January 4, 2006, 01:59 PM
To me the Confederate flag never stood for slavery. The Civil War wasn't about slavery. The North brought slavery in to gain sympathy for the Northern side. The Civil War was about states rights. What was going on before the civil war was the start of the death of the Republic.

I think i have finally found some one i can agree with i have two confederate flags on my truck, and in my room i cant count.


but i think we can say if we do go to war here it wont be like any other we have fought exept the civil war and reveliotionary war. we will have our house's being damaged, our feilds being burned, and our blood on our own soil. plus with the number of illegal alliens that are already here and even legal U.S. citizens whose loyalty still lie with mexico in which some spots out number the rate of other ethnicties we will stand little chance it will be street to street and house to house. it will be up to the gun owners to defend their property and i will defend mine will you?

shecky
January 4, 2006, 02:08 PM
Yup. Until you hit the demand side, you can forget solving the problem. I've long advocated infiltrating the bunches of illegals on the street corners and busting the gringos who scream "DOS DOS" to get some cheap illegal labor for their garden projects. I have some sympathy for the illegal workers, but the folks who hire them like that deserve to have their faces blown off. It's the ultimate in lazy American hypocrisy.

Combine that with a very solid wall and the problem will become much less serious than it currently is. Putting illegals in US prisons will just eat up more US resources. Besides the people who pay the price should be the ones who benefit most from the illegal labor--specifically the agribusiness and employers who rely on illegal labor to keep the profits coming in. Start putting CEO's in prison for hiring illegals and I GUARANTEE it will stop overnight. But since much of the GOP warchest comes from these criminals, it ain't gonna happen anytime soon.

Why would you want to punish the capitalists? They, like the illegal labor pool, are fulfilling a demand. Ultimately, the buck stops with YOU. Are you willing to tax yourself in order to subsidize citizen workers? You can demand that only legally authorized persons be allowed to work, and you'll end up with less and less money in your pocket as a result because workers will have a higher cost of being employed and that cost will be passed on to consumers.

And to solve what problem? The "problem" of illegal immigration is only a problem because the law says it is. Who is the victim?

This sounds a lot like the Wal Mart whiners who are ungrateful for their low priced goods, and can't keep themselves from shopping there.

wingman
January 4, 2006, 02:18 PM
Are you willing to tax yourself in order to subsidize citizen workers?

With all due respect your way off base on this, we now have our taxes used
to subsidize "illegal" workers it varies from state to state but it is estimated
the cost per family between $800-2200 per year.

Very little cost savings is passed on to the consumer of goods produced by illegal workers a large percentage goes into the pockets of the wealthy as does much of the earnings of illegal's who return there money to Mexico.

Please understand illegal labor benefits the wealthy on both sides of the
border it does nothing for average joe taxpayer and in truth is bringing
down the quality of life in America.

Biker
January 4, 2006, 02:35 PM
Click on either of the sites in my sig to see what illegal immigration really does cost us. You should check on the impact that illegals have had on California and Arizona then click on your your home state.
You'll find that the cost of cheap labor far outweighs the benefits.
Biker

slzy
January 4, 2006, 02:42 PM
To me the Confederate flag never stood for slavery. The Civil War wasn't about slavery. The North brought slavery in to gain sympathy for the Northern side. The Civil War was about states rights. What was going on before the civil war was the start of the death of the Republic.
slavery was not my point. i am sure it has been beaten to death in other threads,but, the dred scott decision, the fact that slavery was the only issue in some of the lincoln douglas debates,the fugitive slave law,the 3/5's compromse,that is slaves counting as 3/5s of a person for congessional apportionment,even judah p. benjamin asked why not the furniture and the mules too,foreign recognition denied the confederacy due to the slavery issue, the voter fraud that went along with the lecompton constitution in kansas i am sure there are a lot more i don't know or have forgotten.there were just as many aboltionists in the south as the north,but few people listened to them. i surely don't grant or recognize any moral superiority to the yankees,as they meant only to prevent only the spread of slavery to the territories,and to overturn parts of the dred scott decision.it was only after a long struggle lincoln issued the proclamation,affecting slave only in areas still cosidered in rebellion to sabotage the south. d.h.hill or gen. gordon,i can't remember which and gen. grant both said the war was over slavery,and they were there. there may be other issues that may argue to the contrary,but i can assure myself safely,that had there been no slavery,then the war would not have came. but to my point,as ill formed as it may be,and i ave no problem with the rebel flag myself,is that it does not suggest sovreignity to me,although it might to a black person. when i see a mexican flag flying in an area populated by mexicans,it inclines me to think they have now moved their flag to that point to indicate conquest. you may have seen the films of the laughing german soldiers with the polish border sign they picked up on the way to warsaw.bout the same to me.

CAnnoneer
January 4, 2006, 03:08 PM
The North brought slavery in to gain sympathy for the Northern side. The Civil War was about states rights. What was going on before the civil war was the start of the death of the Republic.

+1

It was also about economy and law in the western territories.

The first American JBT statist is ... <drums beat> ... "honest Abe". Btw, he was also of the opinion that blacks should be shipped off back to Africa, as a form of "final solution". Not exactly the kind of image projected by the doctored texts of our leftist PC age.


shecky,

Blaming consumer influence is just lame (and very popular in certain circles). It is aimed at making the average joe taxpayer ashamed of his "evil capitalist" ways and thus totally incapable of defending his interests. There are a number of organizations we can think of that make their money and influence by peddling guilt...

The consumer will always go for the best quality at the lowest price. They aren't breaking any laws by doing so. Businessmen that hire illegals are breaking the law. If we follow your logic, we should excuse burglars, thieves, robbers, and their fencemen because there are people that buy stuff from pawn shops.

longeyes
January 4, 2006, 03:15 PM
And to solve what problem? The "problem" of ilegal immigration is only a problem because the law says it is. Who is the victim?

The Los Angeles Unified School District is spending $15 BILLION to build 150 schools by 2012. Who do you think those schools are for? (One guess.) Who do you think is paying the bill? What do The Rest of Us get back for our taxes? How long are we going to be able to afford our homes?

I can tell you who benefits: Mexico, the pro-immigrant special interest groups, the school system mafia, the construction company "friends."

Camp David
January 4, 2006, 03:34 PM
If we don't build a wall to keep illegal aliens out, this situation will escalate into a shooting match on our southeast border between legal U.S. citizens and suspected illegal aliens/latin citizens. It will become violent. Innocents will die.

Why?

Tensions are escalating now...

The Government IS NOT acting on the border issue... Tacit approval for illegal immigration to happen seems the message of the moment.... Meanwhile legal U.S. citizens are bearing an increased cost as a result of such illegal immigration... more school construction along SW border states... more hospital construction... state and federal spending for illegal immigrants...costs are unbearable now...

Tensions are escalating now...

All it will take will be an illegal alien (or someone who looks like one) to be caught up in a crime and some U.S. citizen (or group or organization) retaliates... thus the shooting match...which could escalate further into National Guard vs. Mexican Army confrontation...

Tensions are escalating now...

This situation cannot be solved by ANYTHING LESS THAN A WALL... To do less means that the border hopping and illegal immigration will continue... sure there are measures less than a wall which might slow the illegal immigration but none that will contain it and stop it as surely.

Tensions are escalating now...

That is why the wall is the only answer on our SW border. A sure sign to Mexico that illegal border hopping will not be tolerated. No more. Why do Third World Nations have barrier walls on their borders yet the United States, the most powerful nation on earth, does not? It is easier to get into the United States on our sourthern border than it is to get into Rodesia...

Tensions are escalating now...

All it will take will be a relatively isolated incident to set off a powder keg of racial fighting and violence; if such happens anyone Latin caught in the middle will be targeted, much like anyone Muslim was targeted after 09/11/01. Innocents will die.

Building a wall takes only the recognition that we have a problem. We do. To do less only prolongs the shooting match that will come inevitably.

When?

ArmedBear
January 4, 2006, 03:40 PM
With all due respect your way off base on this, we now have our taxes used
to subsidize "illegal" workers it varies from state to state but it is estimated
the cost per family between $800-2200 per year.

Very little cost savings is passed on to the consumer of goods produced by illegal workers a large percentage goes into the pockets of the wealthy as does much of the earnings of illegal's who return there money to Mexico.

Please understand illegal labor benefits the wealthy on both sides of the
border it does nothing for average joe taxpayer and in truth is bringing
down the quality of life in America.

He's not off-base at all.

A few of you misunderstood what his point is.

The point is simple: don't give them ANYTHING, and the problem is no longer a problem. And yes, we "tax ourselves" because we don't fight this enough. Well, actually, California voters did pass an initiative for this very purpose, I think, but it was nixed by the courts. See, Californians are not nearly as crazy as California's corrupt, gerrymandered, union stooge state government.

If we don't give them any medical care, we don't school their kids, we conduct regular raids and deport them if they live on land that is not theirs, etc., then the problem is no longer a problem.

Cheap labor is not the problem. It benefits the economy as a whole. The problem is taxing working, middle-income people and using that money to subsidize illegal immigrants whose labor makes others rich. It's a ripoff of the middle class. And whenever the government has the power to tax, this happens. Minimize government power and involvement, take away the tax-funded incentives for illegal immigration, and the problem will be minimized or eliminated.

And for the record, I'm in San Diego, not a thousand or more miles from the problem. And the ripoff of MY money to fund illegals does piss me off. But put the larger part of the blame where it belongs: our government.

longeyes
January 4, 2006, 03:47 PM
All it will take will be an illegal alien (or someone who looks like one) to be caught up in a crime and some U.S. citizen (or group or organization) retaliates... thus the shooting match...which could escalate further into National Guard vs. Mexican Army confrontation...

The only reason this hasn't happened already--because the provocations are already there, in spades--is that MSM, in cahoots with our .gov, is suppressing the social facts, trying to keep the impact of illegal immigration under a blanket of mantras about "they just come here to work."

What you don't hear about is the criminality and the gangs. You don't hear about the three thousand felons who have committed serious violent crimes in the U.S. and escaped back Down South, only to be embraced by a Mexican gov't that won't extradite.

I'm frankly amazed that the shooting hasn't started yet.

ball3006
January 4, 2006, 04:19 PM
don't bring a rock to a gunfight.......as far as unskilled/uneducated workers go, the public school system in this country seems to be turning them out in bunches lately........to make this immigration problem go away, or greatly reduce it, is to hammer the people or companies that hire these illegals........back in the 50's, I lived in south Tx and the hispanic US citizens hated the "wetbacks" that came over at that time to cause a reduction in wages by working "cheap".......chris3

belton-deer-hunter
January 4, 2006, 04:28 PM
the shooting match is bound to happen is what i am reading. the only question is when this does start how far will it go? i have seen the mexican military and frankly me and my model 60 could wipe out the whole thing. but if the shoot out begins then there will be innocents who live on the border and will be trapped in the violence i mean what would happen if mexico allied themselves with china, russia, or even north koera i mena we hav to act now to show them that this wont be tolerated.
i hate to see a man die but if a illegal immagrant was shot and killed then so be it cops kill people everyday. the mexicans who cross the border need to realize this. (if you cant do the time, dont break the crime)

longeyes
January 4, 2006, 04:34 PM
More likely sporadic skirmishes on both sides of the border that finally awaken both governments that the status quo of "look the other way" isn't going to hold. What all of us will be observing with great interest is what happens when our government, as we can expect, sides with the illegal aliens and against American citizens. That should be an epiphanal moment.

Optical Serenity
January 4, 2006, 04:45 PM
You forgot something. The 20KV generator we should hook up to said fence.... We could probably either make it solar powered or wind fan powered, so there'd be little cost involved....

What, the mexican "government" doesn't like this idea? Since when should we care?
:evil:


Haha, well, maybe we should start caring about the feelings of the taliban and Osama yo Mama too... Sigh...

Camp David
January 4, 2006, 04:46 PM
More likely sporadic skirmishes on both sides of the border...

The skirmishes might indeed be far from the border... example... in Herndon, VA, supervisors approved a massive facility built to house illegal aliens and process/facilitate their relationships with prospective employers! Like a house of prostitution... What they are doing inside this facility will be illegal but the state of Virginia and town of Herndon/Reston subsidize it on taxpayer's nickel! Such a facility is being paid for with my tax money and is in competition with other faciities designed to process legitimate unemployed and/or out-of-work legal citizens. How do you feel about that? An illegal alien might get a job faster than a legal citizen? That should take the wind out of everyone's sail! Skirmishes along the border? No... the skirmishes will happen in your backyard, and everyone's backyard... this problem began at the border but is no longer there....:(

belton-deer-hunter
January 4, 2006, 04:58 PM
Originally Posted by Camp David No... the skirmishes will happen in your backyard, and everyone's backyard... this problem began at the border but is no longer there....
now that we know how and where they are going to happen what do we do i am not going to sit by and watcxh them destroy my town. i dont care if it is any one of any race. this war will not be like all the others the army is not going to be able to fight what they cant see i mean look at iraq. we have been there for a while now and we have still not found our target. dont get me wrong if we are not there now we would have been there in a copule of years and suddam would have had weapons of mass desrtion i am saying we need to be prepared. the people fighting will not be useing standard guns of one caliber most will be varied and the price of ammo will rise so buy it now and start stock pileing....... if you werent already

longeyes
January 4, 2006, 06:37 PM
I am for stopping illegal immigration by all means possible.

I just don't see this Administration siding with "vigilantes." It goes without saying that the MSM will be sympathizing with the "insurgents" in San Diego or Herndon, not "militiamen" and "Minutemen." How this plays out is anyone's guess.

ArmedBear
January 4, 2006, 09:10 PM
The Minutemen just want to make a point. They are not, nor would they want to be, the solution to the problem.

A wall might be. It would make the border easier to patrol. The current situation makes little sense. San Diego has few crossers because we have a wall. The eastern desert part of the county has many crossers, because it has a low fence. High wall, low number of crossers. It's worked.

Why not do it?

My only concern is game. Can we make it so that game can easily travel from Mexico to the US?:cool:

Also, and this is not something to be taken too lightly: do we want a big wall that can be used to keep us IN?

Biker
January 4, 2006, 09:17 PM
The Minutemen just want to make a point. They are not, nor would they want to be, the solution to the problem.

A wall might be. It would make the border easier to patrol. The current situation makes little sense. San Diego has few crossers because we have a wall. The eastern desert part of the county has many crossers, because it has a low fence. High wall, low number of crossers. It's worked.

Why not do it?

My only concern is game. Can we make it so that game can easily travel from Mexico to the US?:cool:

Also, and this is not something to be taken too lightly: do we want a big wall that can be used to keep us IN?
I'm not too worried about being kept in. The people that would want that to happen would be trying to keep millions of POed gun owners in while keeping Mexican immigrants out . Hard to do both.
A fighting hole really only works well in one direction.
;)

Biker

ArmedBear
January 4, 2006, 09:27 PM
I'm not too worried about being kept in. The people that would want that to happen would be trying to keep millions of POed gun owners in while keeping Mexican immigrants out . Hard to do both.
A fighting hole really only works well in one direction.
;)

Biker

Ever seen the wall in San Diego?

It's not just a wall. Where it is complete, it's a wall of concrete pillars, a DMZ with spotlights, then a fence made of tall milsurp steel plates.

It works.

It would work both ways, if anyone wants it to.

Biker
January 4, 2006, 09:33 PM
I've not seen the SD wall, but I'd just as soon take a chance on being walled into my country while I still have one. I can't see myself trying to get out, but I see your point. No easy solutions, eh?
Biker

lostone1413
January 4, 2006, 09:39 PM
I am for stopping illegal immigration by all means possible.

I just don't see this Administration siding with "vigilantes." It goes without saying that the MSM will be sympathizing with the "insurgents" in San Diego or Herndon, not "militiamen" and "Minutemen." How this plays out is anyone's guess.

The trouble is when the shooting starts you will have more then the illegals involved. You will see the Guard and all the LE agencys against you to. Remember New Orleans, Waco, Ruby Ridge, Lodlow massacre, their are many more times then the ones I listed in history to. History has shown that when push comes to shove the guard units and the LE agencys won't be on the side of we the people!

progunner1957
January 4, 2006, 11:46 PM
The death of a Mexican man shot by U.S. authorities while trying to sneak into California proves that extending border walls will not curb illegal immigration, President Vicente Fox's office said Monday.

I'll bet sniper towers with overlapping fields of fire would...:D

cz75bdneos22
January 5, 2006, 12:34 AM
illegals come to the U.S. to work period. When the average wage for an average worker employed in a manufacturing job in Mexico is $30 U.S. dollars a week. It is no surprise then that they are willing to face whatever repercussions may come in the pursuit of the "American" dream..even it that means taking undesireable minimum wage jobs here..by my calculations, that would be $5.15@40 hours/week= $205 dollars..WWYD? Uhmmm!!!:scrutiny:

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