Modern Scenarios When a Sword Would Be Preferable to a Firearm

[Anthony]

Hello Everyone,

Since starting my study of martial arts in Modern Arnis (and its subart Espada y Daga) this past June I have become quite enamored with the power of the blade. Before studying Arnis I was well aware of the abilities of a knife in capable hands, but the gravity of it never quite hit me until I started sparring with practice knives and swords in a range of sizes.

In the past, I viewed the knife as a requisite part of my rollout kit as both a tool and a weapon. This usually constituted a tactical folder or medium sized (5 1/2 inch) fixed blade model.

On the other hand, the sword was obsolete in my eyes.

After training with it for seven months I am beginning to see it more as a niche weapon and (depending on the sword) tool.

Although I have thought of several scenarios in which I might bring one along I was wondering what scenarios you might include one.

Do any of you keep swords or extemely large knives (e.g., machette) in your rollout kits? If yes, what style and kind?

If you don't do so currently, but would like to include one what style would you pick?

What scenarios do you envision in which the sword would be preferable to a firearm?

- Anthony

[MacPelto]

Cutting heavy brush? ;)

[sw442642]

Vampire or monster attack. Basically any creature that can't be stopped unless dismembered.

Of course, you can come up with scenarios for anything. I carry a knife or two but not a sword.

[Knives]

I carry two knives already and will be applyinf for my concealed carry permit in about 5 months when I turn 21 at which point I'll continue to carry both knives as well as a gun.

That said, I can't really see any situation where you'd want a sword over a gun. If they're far enough away for you to be able to draw a sword then you should be able to use a gun... in my opinion.

Not that being able to use a sword wouldn't be extremely cool, it's just that it's not very practical these days.

[Anthony]

Come on guys (and gals)! :rolleyes:

There are some scenarios. :banghead:

How about fight CQB all alone against multiple opponents with a handgun in one hand and a sword in the other?

Providing static security in a place in which gunfire isn't an option for various reasons (e.g., thin walls, flammable materials)?

Local laws make firearms possession extremely difficult and a sword is a nice alternative?

I'm certainly not advocating that the sword is superior to the firearm, but it can serve as a wonderful stopgap on the "use of force" scale in the middle of the huge gap between the handgun and the fixed blade knife. It is a niche weapon at best.

Sorry...should have clarified that to begin with.

- Anthony

[Knives]

I'm not sure. As far as the security thing goes an extendable baton seems like a more reasonable choice. Less training involved, easier to carry... Unless whatever you're guarding requires that you kill whoever happens along. Just my opinion though.

[Correia]

Maybe stuck in an elevator with a couple of bad guys? :p

Sorry, I don't really see the usefullness. You can carry a lot of ammo or other usefull gear in the 3 feet of space that a sword is going to take up.

Don't get me wrong, I think that all weapons are neat. But I think their time has passed.

[Moondancer]

When a gun is just not an option. Of course, a sword cane probably wouldn't be either. In that case how about just a cane. Watch some Hapkido cane masters sometime. And that's not even talking about it's use as an impact weapon!

[Frohickey]

Um... lemme put the thinking cap on for a good scenario.

You are in a gas station, pumping gas. Another guy is filling his plastic gas jug on the ground. Transient comes by and offers to clean your windshield for $1. You said no, and you think he leaves to try another customer. He asks the guy filling his plastic gas jug. You go and put the nozzle back on the gas pump, and go to the counter to get your change back.
When you get back from the counter, and approaching your car, the transient and the guy that was pumping the gas into the gas can got into an argument, and are tugging at the gas can. Its a pretty old gas can and all three of you are doused in gasoline.
Whats worse, now, the transient is beating the guy with his squeegie.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

You encounter an arsonist who has blown out the pilot lights and turned on the gas.

But the heck with the sword. Gimme a crossbow! :D

- pdmoderator

[sanchezero]

I've carried a sword often...















during my guest appearances on Buffy the Vampire Slayer

:evil:

[knowledgegreen]

Perhaps when I run out of ammo. :D

[PATH]

It looks cool in the movies! The officer leading his men with sword in one hand and pistol in the other. On the other hand I don't think my wife will agree to the sword business. It is hard enough with the guns already.

I can explain why I need the guns. I don't have any reasons I can think of that will fly when it comes to swords!

[Chris Rhines]

I like swords (a lot) but I can't see a realistic scenario in which I'd prefer a sword to a firearm.

Now if I had to fight Balrog or something, that's a different deal...

- Chris

[Jim March]

Frohicky, that was one of the funniest dang things I've seen all week :D.

On a more serious note, any number of "shortswords" have some potential utility indoors, esp. if it's tight quarters, in the dark, with lousy backstops all around. Even then it's a real stretch.

Against a gun, if some idiot tries to draw on you at too close a range (say, a mugging), in my opinion the knife is a better answer. It can be brought to bear quicker and is hideously effective at "zero range" (grappling distance).

[keano44]

In a real, old-fashioned sword fight!

[Frohickey]

I can explain why I need the guns. I don't have any reasons I can think of that will fly when it comes to swords!
You could offer to do all the turkey carving next Thanksgiving dinner. :D

[Frohickey]

Gasoline used as a weapon (http://www.kscourts.org/kscases/ctapp/2000/20000609/82819.htm)

[PATH]

I'll give it a shot but I think she is going to use some unneccessarilyrudelanguage! I took a stand on my guns. THis....oh brother.......

Do you really think I can carve the turkey with it?

[45R]

When I run out of bullets. :neener:

[bogie]

I can't take a gun to work, which is likely a good thing, because the next time this :cuss: large format printer pukes all over a job (at the end, of course...), I'd like to mangle it... Haven't tossed it out the window yet, but have considered it... At around 3:00 ayem one night, one of our security folks told me he'd help... but I declined... Dagnabit!

I wonder if I could get away with an "ornamental" battle axe on the wall of my office?

[vertigo7]

A sword never has to be reloaded, so I'll wear a sword on my belt / over my shoulder just as soon as I run out of ammo. Also, it could be useful if stealth was a requirement and sound suppressors for firearms were not available. Funny you should bring up swords and the martial arts.. a friend's been bugging me to join a kenjutsu / kendo class with him. Still thinking it over.

[sonoranjack]

How does 1 conceal a sword?

[Wakal]

Easy, just get one of those Highlander trench coats...the knee length ones than can hide a katana sheathed at waist level, even when running/jumping/falling...



A

[Cal4D4]

If you will allow very short, concealable swords - say around 5 or 6 inches like Mr. March's Sifu - I can think of a number of scenarios. In a dark movie theater against multiple opponents, at your kid's soccer game against a raging parent twice your size and built like a TV wrestler. During the opera where a shot in the balcony would surely draw attention. Anyplace where ranges are short and no clear fields of fire.

Train hard and play nice.:D

[JPM70535]

Are we talking ASSAULT SWORDS? If so I'd be very careful how I used them because the Government won't like them and will probably ban them or at the very least make you register them


NEVER BRING A SWORD TO A GUNFIGHT

[GhostShooter]

When is a sword preferable to a gun? When I have ABSOLUTELY no ammo left in the gun. As for scenarios have you ever see night of the living dead?http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/biggrin3.gif


http://www.stopstart.freeserve.co.uk/smilie/2M16.gif

[HS/LD]

Ok I will bite.


An intruder bursts into my office (home office) armed in a knife, while I am browsing THR forums.

My wife in her usual way has been "tidying" that day (tidying is defined by hiding all the things that I find most useful and need to have about at all times) and she has removed my handgun from the office.

I :D and grab the katana, which I purchased while I lived in Japan, that is resting against the edge of my desk.

Flashes of Miyamoto Musashi flash through my mind (you know Musashi is on TV everyday in Japan).

I set to cutting the intruder into as many small pieces that I can manage.

Regards,
HS/LD

[roscoe]

If someone slaps you in the face with his chamois gloves and challenges you to swords at dawn, you better be able to back it up.

[Mike Irwin]

If I were a level 5 ninja climbing a wall with my special felt boots, maybe.

[Triad]

There was a guy on TFL asking about concealed carry of swords. Seems that in Austria where he lives, carrying guns is a no no, but open or concealed carry of swords is OK.

[Gordon]

Well guys until I was 50 or so I was convinced that under 6 feet a sword would be just as deadly as any gun for me. Now, no friggin way, age is the great leveler, all that training and strength of the young lion gets put into reality. I think a young practitioner of the art is real deadly under 6 feet with a katana or equivalent. Cut in half,beheaded or split apart is as fast as any bullet IMHO.:eek:

[CMichael]

This has already been said. The only time a sword is preferable to a gun is if you run out of ammo.

A sword is a rather clumsy weapon. Drawing a sword out of a sheath takes much more time than drawing a gun out of a holster.

Don't being a sword to a gun fight.

[Nathaniel Firethorn]

If someone slaps you in the face with his chamois gloves and challenges you to swords at dawn, you better be able to back it up.The challenged gentleman has his choice of weapons.

Like Lincoln, I choose meadow muffins at two paces. :D

- pdmoderator

[Harold Mayo]

Nothing wrong with a sword, I guess, but why? Really? If you're down to using an edged weapon over a firearm, you're in deep crap, anyway. I handgun conceals better than a sword, too.

Dead is dead, of course, but there is a reason why firearms are now used in warfare and swords are not.

[JShirley]

I'm an 11C. Theoretically, my fellow mortarmen and I have an issued machete in each squad, so we can clear brush or grass out of the way if we have to run poles.

We have not been issued our machete.

I carry a kukri instead of an e-tool, as everyone else already has an e-tool, and the kukri works to clear light brush or heavy brush.

I hope I'm never down to using my kukri (it's about 21" long) in defense. First we have the mortars, then we have our rifles (we're already in trouble at that point), then the gunners have M9's, then we're in deep, deep kimchee.

[Anthony]

You guys crack me up.

[teppo-shu]

...and in all seriousness --

I think that at almost any range that a sword would be effective, there's a better alternative these days: pepper spray.

I realize it's not potentially as lethal, but deployed properly it does buy you time to get away. And it's a good step up from hand-to-hand on the escalation scale.

Besides, I'm under the impression that cops don't like knives.:uhoh:

[Wayne]

An umbrella where you hit a button and out pops a blade from the top, and then stab the guy. I dont know any scenarios for that but i think its kind of neat.

[Tazz10m]

When i was a kid, about 13+ years old, me and my best buddy would go hiking way back in the hills behind Whittier, near Los Angeles. We used to get pretty far into the thick of it and even though we carried hunting type knives, we found we needed machettes. They "worked", but ate up alot of energy, and really weren't that efficient. We got into snorkeling and spearfishing with full wetsuits and of course diving knives, and found the diving knives also worked quite well when hiking in the boonies as we could hack a small tree down if needed. We eventually got into going to Catalina Island without "parental guidance" and hacked out our own special little illegal campsite right in Wrigley's back yard just up the hill from "Lovers Cove" where the glass bottom boat goes. We would spear large fish for food and get some pretty healthy abalone too. We did quite well for a couple of 15 year-olds. Needless to say, it was all quite "knife intensive" and so we became VERY serious about our knives... particularly our diving knives. Eventually my buddy got his hands on a old civil war bayonet/short sword with a blade about 20 inches long. This baby came in pretty handy, but little did we know how handy it would come in. At the far north end of the Island the terrain is extremely rugged, some of the most rugged i have ever hiked, and covered with huge patches of cactus. Many of these cactus patches had trails going right through the middle of them which the wild spanish goats would use. The goats would knock of sections of cactus into the middle of the trail making the trails very difficult to hike. The trails themselves were already extremely tight with cactus growing across the trails blocking them, and we had to hike like a ballerinas on a seriously booby trapped trail. There was zero room for mistakes. If you lost your balance and fell in the cactus, you were screwwwwwed. This is where that sword came in REALLY handy. We found we could make short accurate little chops on the cactus blocking the trail, stick it with the tip of the sword, and fling them out of the way. This was not something we could do with the machettes, and could only do on a limited basis with the diving knives. The machettes didn't have pointy tips, and the diving knives were too short, although they where better than nothing.

These experiences and more taught me that there is a place for at least short swords for modern day use. We also took alot of martial arts classes together and studied quite a bit of sword. All this made me want to have a "hiking sword" so every time i went to a gun show i would aways check out all the swords, looking for that one with "my name" on it. I found one that really seemed to scream at me. Al Mar's double edged "Pathfinder" short sword. 14" x 2.5" x 3/16ths" blade, 19.5" over all length, hollow ground edge, stabbing point, and wickedly sharp. Everyone who sees it calls it "The Knife". Eventually i move up to Washington State where i start getting into hunting elk in the rain forest. Of course i have to take The Knife.

The Knife has seen more use than i ever imagined. Having it with me and so being able to use it, it has literally...saved-my-life... and more than a few times too. Wet, cold, hypothermic, and losing the trail with glasses fogged up from trying to hump it out of the rain forest as it gets dark, The Knife comes out to make a trail. Hack hack, step, hack hack hack, step... until i finally got out to a trail i could follow and back to the camp to warm up by the fire.

One time i got myself surrounded by blackberry bushes at night trying to find a "short cut" (yeah, right... oooops!). I found that i could cut down small trees about 6-8" thick and about 20 feet tall and drop them on top of the blackberry bushes and walk down the tree until i got to the next tree, cut that down, walk down it, etc... until i got out. Got hung up several times by the stickery vines, but it still worked great.

Another time it was pretty comforting having The Knife when i found myself in the middle of a bears clear warning sign marked territory in the Cascades while bow hunting elk. Now i did have my G20 with me... but somehow having The Knife... and my hand on The Knife... made me feel like i had a little better chance with The Knife, than the gun.

I never do any serious hiking without it.

[Anthony]

Thanks Brooks,

That's the kind of input I have been looking for.

I never meant to suggest that the sword was the do all end all sidearm of choice. Just another tool that might be preferable to a handgun in certain siutations.

Some of you have suggested that it is difficult to conceal a sword. I agree and have not considered it for such scenarios.

The sword is like any other weapon or tool. It gives you options that may or may not be applicable to the situation at hand. Admittedly the sword has a much more narrow field of employment, but within its range it dominates or provides a better alternative to most options when projectile weapons are not available.

In the past it has been discussed on TFL and other places about how formidable a BG with a knife can be within 7 yards against a firearm. The Teuler Drill, which simulates this scenaro, is considered to be a major training exercise for many firearms shools like Lethal Force Institute (LFI). The principle is simple. An opponent with a knife can be on top of you in 1.5 seconds from a distance of 7 yards.

If these firearms trainers feel today's typical knife with a 2 to 8 inch blade is a threat to a trained gunman within 7 yards what makes you think the sword with a 18 to 36 inch blade isn't?

Remember, knives cut flesh while swords cut deeper and can take limbs off. The leverage afforded by the additional length in the blade can be devastating in trained hands.

Personally, I think Brooks hit it on the head with something in the range of a machette sized sword with a 20 inch blade is about right for a combination tool and weapon in today's world. This gives you a blade that is easy to carry openly, can be defended as a tool or machette if you are going outdoors, enough length to take advantage of the sword's additional leverage, and yet keeps it compact enough to be useful at extreme close quarters. This last point becomes very clear when you start sparring and realize how much more maneuverable a short blade is when up close and personal.

As for "dead is dead" I'd much rather take a few BGs with me if things became that desperate. Who knows, I might just pick up a gun along the way, get back in the gunfight, and survive.

A sword is an option...nothing more.

Staying in the fight at any cost is the objective for when you stop fighting you will surely lose.

- Anthony

[CWL]

Swords are good if you are facing a knife fighter down a hallway.

Pretty much useless against determined people with guns.

Think Japanese officers/NCOs in WWII. Didn't do well against US Marines did they? Is there even documentation of any marines who were hurt during combat by a sword?

Anthony, swords are great to learn for mind & physical discipline. Suggest you stick to the "daga" part of FMA for practical training.

[ctdonath]

Drawing a sword out of a sheath takes much more time than drawing a gun out of a holster.

Not true, at least if you've practiced. I've timed myself with both, and can actually draw and strike with a sword marginally faster. Details here (http://www.donath.org/Rants/SwordVsGun).

Of note in comparing the two is that the gun has a linear area of effect, while the sword has a planar area of effect. A gun has a longer range, but the sword generally does more damage within range. At room-sized distances, distance is less of an issue; most attacks are within sword range. Just don't hit the wall or ceiling while swinging the sword.

[ctdonath]

Pretty much useless against determined people with guns.

The key word is "determined", not "gun".

Reminds me of a highly trained knife fighter who does not carry a knife, explaining that if he needs a knife he'll just take the attacker's.

[JShirley]

CWL,

I think the charging part had more to do with it than what they were armed with!

I don't mean to give the impression that I think swords are useless. At very close range, long blades are the most dangerous weapon one can wield. Getting into that perfect range may be the problem.

Good to see you, Carl.

John

[MitchSchaft]

Although it's fun to fantasize about being Stryder in Lord of the Rings, there isn't a practical scenario I can come up with.

[Sean Smith]

I guess if you try hard you can imagine one.

But most people have a flawed concept of what swords are like and what swords can do to somebody.

A genuine Japanese Katana is a much deadlier weapon than any handgun IF you can bring it into action before you take a bullet. Assuming proper skill level and a genuine carbon steel Katana made to authentic specs, you can literally bisect a person's torso with a single cut. Removing arms/legs/etc. is trivial with the right blade and the right technique. Of course, that takes lots of training, and you still have the disadvantage of having to close the distance to your enemy while he hits you with .45 slugs from 25 yards out.

[Harold Mayo]

Yes, yes, a sword can do incredible damage and it doesn't run out of ammunition BUT there is a reason why swords aren't used in modern warfare.

The original question of "Modern Scenarios When a Sword Would Be Preferable to a Firearm" is pretty much answered, I think. I'm sure that there are some but, overall, no one can really think of one.

Swords are great weapons and have their place IN HISTORY. There really aren't any modern scenarios where I wouldn't take a sword over a firearm, though. Imagine an entry team storming a crack house with drawn swords instead of shotguns, submachineguns and M16-pattern long guns while their team crossbowman covers them instead of a sniper with a 1/2 MOA rifle.

A handgun conceals better than a sword and is a better weapon for the vast majority of the population. It really isn't as deadly in the long run, but the reason that swords aren't used in modern combat is because firearms are easier to use and have a greater range. We don't HAVE to fight in hand-to-hand combat unless forced.

[Sean Smith]

Of course, that takes lots of training, and you still have the disadvantage of having to close the distance to your enemy while he hits you with .45 slugs from 25 yards out.

Yeah, I think I made that pretty clear in my post. :p

[Gordon]

I posted in the beginning of thread : a katana(or equivalent) in the strong trained hands of an operator at 6 feet or less. The rebuttal was a speed of presentation issue which if you have studied the art is a non issue as you are swinging to cut as you draw sword properly. A "realistic scenario" to me would be some schmuck holdin you up with a pistol at about 4 to 6 feet out as you sidestep explosively the sword is whirling toward him and will cut thru what ever is in its way. And the follow thru should begin the slicing and dicing process to completion. I think a shorter sword would do the same in less than 3 feet. You might get shot but he will be hamburger unless he gets REAl lucky with CNS disconnect .:cool:

[CWL]

Katanas when carried militarily by the Samurai or WWII equivalent (ie. for combat situations), were slung from harnesses and hung off of the thigh. They were not tucked into the sash like in ninja movies. To properly draw the sword, one has to hold the scabbard with the weak hand and free it with the strong hand, it was also commonly necessary to undo the thumbbreak whch locked the sword to the scabbard via the handguard (tsuba).

Military katanas were also carried edge downwards. It wasn't the fastest thing to draw. But it made it easier run around, lay down, jump and crawl around with. Try doing any of this with a sword tucked edge-up into a sash.

No, swords weren't faster to draw than a handgun.

[Harold Mayo]

The rebuttal was a speed of presentation issue which if you have studied the art is a non issue as you are swinging to cut as you draw sword properly


Well..maybe. If someone has "studied the art" of drawing a handgun and shooting on the drawstroke to the same extent, then who wins? One poster noted on a web page of his own that he had more hours of handgun training than sword training, but how much of the handgun training was the drawstroke and shooting from it? How much was in the classroom (he cited Lethal Force Institute as his training)? How much of the sword training was focused specifically on drawing and cutting (iajutsu?)?

To me it is a physics issue. Does it take longer to draw a short piece of steel from a sheath and point it at someone or does it take longer to draw a 28" or so piece of steel from a sheath and cut someone with it?

And, again, if the sword is so good, then why is it not used in modern warfare?

[Gordon]

Not used because A. it takes skill B. it IS cumbersome C. You are not supposed to get that close! Hey I can no doubt speed rock a gun and (hopefully) hit your torso a 6' or less even if you side step BUT unless gun gets CNC disconnect (which odds are it wont in this scenario) you ARE gonna get bisected which is final. Once again I think a long knife is good to have in war (been there and done that) and good to have for anti mugging defense.:D

[Beer for my Horses]

In trained hands, a sword, or knife for that matter, is certainly more lethal than a handgun inside 10 feet and probably inside 21 feet as well (unless the gun wielder is equally trained in the Tueller Drill)

[gun-fucious]

The Gurkhas still transition from the rifle to the khukuri at 5 paces

http://www.himalayan-imports.com/gurkha.html

in the Faulklands the Argentinians surrendered rather than face dismemberment

http://www.btinternet.com/~russeltorah/pictures/8.jpg

[Anthony]

I'm not arguing with the Gurkhas!

:what:

- Anthony

[JShirley]

Gotta love those kukuris! Just bought another HI kuk for a good friend.

[gun-fucious]

http://www.himal.hotlinks.co.uk/afghanfight.jpg
Unleash the Gurkhas
Britain's most terrifying warriors prepare to take on the Taliban.
by Victorino Matus
10/12/2001 12:01:00 AM

Victorino Matus, assistant managing editor

FOR THE PAST FEW MONTHS, the British army and navy have been conducting joint exercises in the sultanate of Oman. The operation is called Swift Sword II, and by happy coincidence, it happens to put 23,000 British soldiers in the vicinity of Afghanistan. Many of them are now expecting to take part in the ground war and have been training furiously since September 11.

In fact, just last week a war game took place in the heart of the Omani desert. The objective was a two-man post held by the Lancers, an armored infantry unit. One-hundred yards away, a platoon of elite special forces dismounted from personnel carriers and charged the post. The first four soldiers to reach the Lancers threw their SA80 rifles to the ground, whipped out curved, razor-sharp short-swords for hand-to-hand combat, jumped into the nest, and simulated slitting the Lancers' throats. Observers on the sidelines were rendered speechless.

These knife-wielding warriors are members of the Royal Gurkha Rifles. And they're not British--they're Nepalese. Their signature blade is called the kukri. Gurkhas have been known to decapitate their enemies with it (it can also double as a deadly boomerang).

Mere mention of the Gurkhas strikes fear and awe in the hearts of many. As one retired Gurkha officer explained to the Los Angeles Times, "When they're ready to go into battle, their eyes turn red. Then they keep coming. They can never be stopped." Indeed, having fought alongside Great Britain for almost 200 years, the Gurkhas are known throughout the world as legendary soldiers. Their motto: "It's better to die than be a coward."

The legend dates to 1814, when the East India Company, which oversaw the subcontinent under the auspices of the British Empire, went to war against the kingdom of Nepal after repeated raids by Gurkha tribes into Bengal and Bihar. A year later, the boundary dispute was settled and a peace treaty was ratified. But the British went further. Impressed by the Nepalese warriors, they asked them to volunteer for the East India Company. And so, in 1815, the Regiment of Gurkhas was born.

The first test of loyalty came during the 1857 Indian mutiny, and the Gurkhas did not disappoint. They remained on the side of the British even through the bloodiest campaigns, taking part in the siege of Delhi and losing more than half their battalion in the Battle of Delhi Ridge. In the First World War, the Gurkhas finally saw action outside the subcontinent. Approximately 100,000 Gurkhas battled in Ypres, Salonika, Persia, and Mesopotamia. They also fought at Gallipoli.

The Second World War saw a record 112,000 Gurkhas fighting alongside the British in North Africa, Syria, Italy, and in the brutal Burma campaign, which resulted in over 40,000 Gurkha casualties. Colonel David Horsford, who fought with them in Burma, once said that "when the Gurkhas ran out of hand grenades, they spent 20 minutes throwing stones at the Japanese troops." Major Charles Heyman, who served with the Gurkhas more recently in Borneo and is currently the editor of Jane's World Armies, notes that "the Japanese were terrified of them."

After World War II, the Gurkha regiment was scaled down. Many remained in India after that country's partition in 1947, and the rest went to Hong Kong. Gurkhas were sent to the Falkland Islands in 1982, and legend has it that hundreds of Argentinians surrendered to British forces upon hearing that a Gurkha patrol was coming their way. In recent years, the Gurkhas would see action in the Gulf War, East Timor, and even Kosovo. To date, they have earned 26 Victoria crosses.

When Britain handed Hong Kong back to the Communist mainland, the Gurkhas vacated the garrison there and relocated to Brunei and England (some even take turns standing guard at Buckingham Palace). Today, the number of Gurkhas in the British army has dwindled to about 3,500. But the British still love them. Take, for example, the words of a letter writer in The Mirror:

"Once again, Britain sends for the Gurkhas in its hour of need. These warrior soldiers will cope well with the terrain in Afghanistan and will not fail us. . . . The Gurkhas are good friends of Britain and are always ready to help us."

Last year, when Gurkha Headquarters moved from one town to another in England, huge crowds turned out to bid them farewell. Said one politician, "There is a considerable vacuum now. Local people are very proud to have had these doughty warriors living amongst us . . . we will always be proud and grateful we were part of the Gurkha family."

Though the Royal Gurkha Rifles have dwindled in number, more and more Nepalese want to join up. Recruiters looking for as few as ten men have on occasion had more than a thousand show up, some as young as 14. (It's easier to fake your age as a Gurkha--the average height is 5 feet, 3 inches.) Many are lured not only by the mystique but by the pay, more than 12 times what they would make in Nepal. The training is rigorous and includes ten-mile hikes and running up mountainsides with over a hundred pounds of rocks on one's back. Needless to say, Gurkhas are famous for enduring long marches and can do so at different paces, such as the "double march" (known as "the Keel Row") and the "quick march" (also called "the Black Bear").

The Gurkha company in Oman consists of about 150 men. Asked how they like it in the desert, some of them complain that it is hot, but add, "We are enjoying it here." The temperature is about 115 degrees. And what do they think about the latest crisis? One rifleman told a reporter from The Mirror, "The attack on America was very sad and many lives were lost. It was terrible to watch on television. So I would love to go to Afghanistan to fight." He went on to say, "From what I have read, the Taliban are bad people, so the fight would be very just. I would even ask to go first." A British officer said, "for them, it is like playing in the World Cup."

I asked Major Heyman what it would be like for the Taliban if they confronted the Gurkhas. "I'll put it to you this way," he said. "You wouldn't want to meet the Gurkhas on a dark night, especially when they've got their bloodlust up."

http://www.weeklystandard.com/Content/Public/Articles/000/000/000/353gosbp.asp

[Harold Mayo]

A kukri can be used as a boomerang? That's news.

A sword has no place in modern warfare.

I've seen the Tueller drill fail in demonstrations against people who AREN'T used to it. Cuts OR gunshot wounds aren't necessarily stoppers. There is no guarantee.

A sword DOES require skill, which is one reason why it isn't used. Why train extensively with a weapon that has a limited range when your enemy can pretty much have a couple of minutes of instruction with a long gun and kill you? I agree that a knife is a nice thing to have and am almost never without one but it is a tool and a supplementary weapon, not a primary one.

While the heroism of the Gurkha regiments is not in question, no one (not even their British officers) has ever given them high marks on the intelligence scale.

[Sean Smith]

Harold,

I think you sort of miss the point. The kukri is a psychological weapon... for the enemy and for the Gurkhas themselves. Sort of like the bayonet for more "western" armies. There is more to being a warrior than basic rifle marksmanship. ;)

While the heroism of the Gurkha regiments is not in question, no one (not even their British officers) has ever given them high marks on the intelligence scale.

What source have you got for that? Just curious. Because the notion that stupid people make good infantry is a false one.

ANYway, I don't think anybody is arguing for the adoption of Zweihanders as standard issue anytime soon.

[Harold Mayo]

No, Sean, I don't miss the point. I understand perfectly the psychological impact of the kukri wielded by small Asians with a formidable reputation for using them in combat. There are MANY tales of what a kukri has done to men in warfare but it is still not really preferable to a firearm. It is just the preferred weapon of the Gurkhas in close quarters. From what I've read, they're becoming more of a modern-day unit, anyway. In addition, there are fewer Nepalese-born and bred Gurkhas in the service and more who were born to Gurkha soldiers while on duty and raised in more modern and less harsh environments.

I'd have to look up the sources but they're both in a bookcase at the house. I am thinking that one of them is "The Gurkhas" by a guy named John or James (can't remember which) Parker. I went through a phase of fascination with the Gurkhas after reading a little about them in a science-fiction series and decided to purchase some more (factual) reading about them. Make no mistake, the Gurkhas are much-loved by their British officers (I don't believe that ANY Gurkha has ever been made an officer), are fierce, are tough, are loyal and obedient to a fault...but even the officers that brag on them (and service as an officer to the Gurkhas seems to be regarded as something of an honor) are very candid about the mental faculties of their troops. Of course, this is to be expected of guys who are, for the most part, raised as goat-herders in backwards, rural mountain areas of what is, basically, a Third World country.

[KMKeller]

You folks got it all wrong... Why, just the other day when I was flitting about from tree limb to tree limb, chasing an adversary, I realized that I was flitting more heavily to the right beccause my pistol was making my right side heavier than my left... courtesy Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon.

A sword is definitely more useful when flitting...:D

[Smoke]

I keep invisioning that scene from the first Indiana Jones movie....

you know the one.:neener:

[Beer for my Horses]

In Raiders of the the Lost Ark, the script called for an elaborate duel between Indy with his whip and the big guy with his sword. Pulling the gun and shooting him was improvisation by Harrison Ford. . . . good stuff. :D

[ctdonath]

They shot the whip vs. sword scene a few times. Seen it; pretty impressive. Harrison, being sick the whole time they were shooting in the Middle East, just couldn't take another take and improvised the "just shoot him" scene.

[Anthony]

Not that it matters with respect to this thread, but as I recall from several outtakes of unused film I recently viewed Harrison Ford was wielding a sword for the big fight instead of his whip. A wide bladed scimitar like the one the bad guy in black used.

[CWL]

Harrison Ford had the runs that day, so he wasn't up for too many takes as was needed for the fight scene. Pay attention to his face next time you see the movie and you can certainly tell he was trying to hold his cheeks together during that scene.

[CWL]

To drift this thread at least somewhat back:

Ghurka units exist in three armies: English, Nepalese and Indian.

Only English units disallow Ghurka officers -because it is a mercenary unit.

I used to see Ghurkas in Hong Kong, they are about 5'5"-5'6" in height and very slightly built. They certainly didn't look threatening. I didn't even know they were Ghurkas until someone pointed them out.

[Harold Mayo]

Yes...back to the tangent of the tangent of the tangent of the original thread...

AHHH...there is ONE modern scenario where a sword would be preferable to a firearm...

When a thread goes so far from its starting point that you need to cut off the tangents that have developed, THEN you would need a sword!

:neener:

[longspurr]

A sword better than a gun? Probably not but here are 2 examples where a big knife is welcome.
1) What do you answer that knock at the door with? I go through the kitchen and a big butcher knife is easily at hand. If questioned about it, people don't seem as upset when they see you lay a butcher knife down as when you put a pistol away.

2) When wandring in the woods a large knife [machete] is not seen as a "bad thing". But having it will prove to be more useful than carrying most any firearm. Defense? yes 2 pit bulls just killed 1 woman and seriously injured another. I would rather have a short sword on my belt than a firearm at home. We can't all carry concealed [unfortuantely].

[geekWithA.45]

The last time swords where issued for military field use, they where given to officers, with the unstated purpose that they where to be used to keep their own men in line.


Literally in line, as in fixed formation marching into cannon fire line.

[scotjute]

About the only case I can think of where sword/dagger would be preferrable to firearms is a matter of stealth and one did not have a silenced firearm.
I can think of several situations where a sword could be useful for self-defense. The primary situation is when your government outlaws guns (like well over 1/2 the world experiences). Witness the riots in Africa where thousands were hacked to death with machetes. A sword is a definite step up over a machete, which is probably the primary weapon of defense in poor countries.
Just last year there was a story about an Australian man whose house was broken into by 6 men bearing iron bars. The home owner had a Samurai type sword. One intruder was killed and one was injured (arrested at hospital), the others fled.
As far as a military combat situation, as the old saying goes, "If your life is dependent on how big your knife is, you're already in a
boatload (actual word was different) of hurt."

[Shooter 2.5]

sanchezero.

Are you kiddiing about the Buffy show or did you get a part on it?

[7.62mm]

Man, some of you guys should do stand up comedy. Had me ROTFLOL!

Seriously, instead of a sword, how about a Bowie knife on the suspender strap of your web gear? Brush cutter, and [U]If you train with it![U], it could be a last-ditch defense weapon if you run your pistol dry or suffer a malfuction you don't have time to clear.

The Bowie will give you much more reach than a fighting knife like a K-Bar.

Just a thought.

Regards,

[blitzer0101]

Before Gerber gave in to the PC garbage they had a real nice 12" double edged fighting knife. It developed from about th 60's , In Nam, to the late 80's. It appeared to drop off the catalogs about then.

I have one of the late 70's models, it is somewhere around here after my move. While on active duty I would place a Silloute target on the wall of my room using 1/4" standoffs. I would practive slicing the paper only. The First Sgt, never mentioned the target during inspections, he would just "look" at it.

Carried it on duty while in the field. Had to stow it sometimes as the brass found it too much for the Air Force. Wimps! Kept an Air Force survival knife on me 24/7 while in the field otherwise, Mobile Radar Unit, as well as a Balisong in my coat or pants pocket. Got flack for the survival knife too. Often the night perimeter patrols were in heavy fog and light rain, Germany. Felt the knife was a good addiition to my gear. Trained with it a lot as I had more access to it than my pistols and the range.

We were issued a .38 S&W model 10 or M-16 while on perimeter guard duty only. No weapons while off duty in the field. Of course "my" S&W Model 59 9mm or S&W Model 28 .357 mag was close at hand.

[scotjute]

blitzer0101
How wide and how thick was knife, or should I say "dagger"?
It is amazing to me how our military is often given orders that limit the size of knife they can carry with them. Its as if its ok to carry a gun or grenades, but a longer than "X" inches knife is a clear mark of a dangerous pyschotic. Bladeforum.com has had similar comments.

[LASur5r]

CTDonath,
Got a Kukri attached to my BOB, just in case.

Scenarios where a sword can be used?
A sword/knife is a tool, just like a handgun is a tool. Each has its useage. Some tools can be pressed into double duty if the occasion demands it.
I.E. say your base camp gets overrun and you are running low on ammo.
Another example...let's say that Y2K had really hit and the social fabric was torn and your family had made the decision to hold the fort and not bugout. Over a period of time, the scavengers got real aggressive and knew about your location and the fact that you had supplies and they tried to take your place at night.
Anyway, I believe all of you if pressed can come up with similar scenarios.:evil: :confused:

[Pointman]

taking out those pesky wait-a-minute vines on a "casual" hike :D

[jonathantan77]

I don't understand this thread. On another thread, there was a discussion about how lethal knives were under 20 feet, even against an opponent armed with a gun. Elsewhere, I was reading about how dangerous a baseball bat could be...even against someone with a gun.

So why is a sword not regarded in the same light? Nobody is advocating facing the US Army while armed with swords.

I viewed this thread as a discussion on whether you would feel confident with a handgun (say 9mm) against a determined intruder wielding a sword or machette in your living room. In my living room, this means under 20 feet. My personal take is that both parties can expect to be hurt badly. I would not be confident in being able to effectively stop a machette armed intruder with a handgun, without being seriously injured as well. Would you be better off with a sword yourself in that situation?

[CAS700850]

Sword play gan be an amazing thing to watch. It is, however, a skill that must be difficult to learn, and as difficult to maintin. Can't really do any range time practice with a sword, can you?

That said, if SHTF, a good sword and the ability to use it could prove to be invaluable. No need to worry about ammo supplies...

[Biker]

I've successfully defended myself twice with a Louisville Slugger. Both times against multiples and both times the police determined that I had the right to do so and I survived the civil suits. Although I would've rather used the custom English Bastard sword I had made fifteen years ago, I likely would've ended up in jail and lost everything I had in the civil suits. *shrugs*
Biker

[ctdonath]

I viewed this thread as a discussion on whether you would feel confident with a handgun (say 9mm) against a determined intruder wielding a sword or machette in your living room.Me vs. intruder with sword? certainly dangerous, but can be handled with confidence. The likelyhood of facing someone who actually knows how to be effective with a 3-foot razor blade in a confined space is unlikely. Machete would be more of a problem, but still faces the same problem of walls being too close for a swing. Either faced off with a trained handgun operator would probably lose (again, certainly dangerous).

Reversed - trained swordsman vs. untrained shooter - would favor the blade. Getting off the line of fire plus one small-radius stroke could easily end the fight.

The issue isn't so much tool vs. tool (so long as they are in or near range), the issue is ability and determination of the one wielding it - just remember that idiots flailing weapons are still very dangerous.

[solive]

I trained in kenjitsu for 4 years, I feel very confident that i could defend my self with my katana inside a home. In my class most of us could cover 7-9 feet and strike an opp. in less than 1/2 sec. A trained swordsman can get the tip of a katana moving well over 125 mph. If the attacker was not very skilled with his firearm I could very likely come out unharmed. Most sword duels happen so fast that onlookers cannot tell what hapend.

[hkmp5g17]

When the other guy is immortal and- there can be only one? :D

Anthony

[HI express]

Ever use a kukri to cut a tree down? (small branches at least?)
My cousin was stationed in Korea at the DMZ. One of the contingents in the same AO was a company of Gurkhas. He watched them work out from time to time. He sent me a pair of Kukris. I have used them in M.A. since the 70's.

I now have a pair in my BUGout gear but I switched to Cold Steel Kukris, like the feel better.. more fluid. I also have a Cold Steel tomahawk in my pack. Either weapon has the weight where I prefer it in the cutting and hacking maneuvers. I've been in different M.A.s for over 40 years now and I've narrowed my preferences for these weapons for my gear. I carry Kershaw and Benchmade folders as daily carry.

Good luck on your search. Half the fun is the hunt.

[jonathantan77]

Either faced off with a trained handgun operator would probably lose (again, certainly dangerous)....

....Reversed - trained swordsman vs. untrained shooter - would favor the blade. Getting off the line of fire plus one small-radius stroke could easily end the fight.

Hi there, appreciate your response. And I agree with what you said. But if this fight happened at close range (as in a home invasion), is it really likely that there would be a "winner" and "loser"? I'm of the rather pessimistic view that there would be two losers in this fight.

I admit having an interest in this thread because of a few "butcher knife" and machette attacks in my local news lately. Very brutal and messy. I don't remember if they were specifically home invasions, but I do remember having my doubts about the ability of a handgun to stop the attacker in those cases.

[Coronach]

I don't think that anyone doubts that a sword is perfectly lethal in CQB. As are knives, crowbars, baseball bats, etc etc etc, all to varying degrees.

The point is that while one might very well carry a knife conveniently, for utility or defense, or have possession of a ball bat or other instrument at the time of an attack, it is unlikely that you would "just happen" to have your sword handy. Having a sword at hand means one of two things:

1. The bad guy really did break into the wrong rec room.

2. You are planning ahead for your own self defense.

The first is a factor of chance (mugged you on your way to get your katana appraised, or en route to or from iado class), the latter implies that you have carried or positioned a weapon with forethought. And if that is the case, you are, in general, MUCH better served with a rifle, shotgun or handgun. Basically, if you're going to put up with the logistical inconveniences of having a 3-4" piece of metal with you, it might as well be one that goes BANG.

One notes that armies and police forces don't use swords nowadays. This is for a reason.

That Said (tm), I find swords insanely cool, and I own several. Are they deadly weapons? Oh heck yes. But if someone breaks into Ye Olde Crib, I'm grabbing my 870, not my cavalry saber.

Mike

[Geno]

Anthony:

Good thread here. I have been a martial arts instructor for 25 years now. Regarding seeing a niche for a particular blade, in fact, they all have such. Some will serve several purposes, but all serve one purpose best. Regarding blade, stick, firearm, foot or fist, it all depends on where one is, who/what the adversary is/are. Life's best possibility is to simply be widely trained. We do not allow our students to begin training on weapons until the have gained control of their own body first. That is at 1st degree Black belt. Thereafter, they can venture into weapons. This was all interesting reading. Thanks to all who have contributed.

Doc2005

[oh blanky]

Thank you for joining us today on the mental masturbation channel!!

[GEM]

Attack of the mortadella wielding Zombie Italian chef.

[Bix]

Here's a modern scenario where a sword was not preferable to a firearm:

http://www.thedenverchannel.com/news/5051208/detail.html

[pauli]

i think swords are a great idea when confronted with thread necromancy.

[Sam]

Can't see the sword as an alternative to a firearm really, but can see it displace a wide variety of non lethal weapons for cops in mass interpersonal confrontation (riots).

It makes available 4 modes of use:

#1 you can use the flat to speed up the slow in varying degrees with a smack on the backside :eek: . Nice way to clear the streets of mildly recalcitrant idiots that aren't quite worth shooting

#2 You may use the point to stimulate the slightly more recalcitrant to hasten their departure by "poking" them in non sensitive areas :uhoh:

#3 You may use the back to break arms and heads in a non lethal way when the level of force must be escalated a notch :mad:

#4 At any point in the encounter you may instantly employ it in a lethal mode if required by converting the "poke" to the skewer maneuver or hacking off a limb or head :evil:

It is a terror weapon unlike a gun, in that it has a strong psychological impact.
Very few angry people really respect guns, they have no frame of reference, very few of them having been shot. They only know what they see on TV, someone slumping to the ground after a brief shout. On teh other hand almost everyone has at one time or another been hit with a stick or cut with a sharp object and the potential for such treatment is a powerful inducement to obey. :cool:

Sam :D

[pete f]

Having spent some time in Central America during periods of political unrest, and witnessed the wounds left behind by a determined individual with a machete, I added on to my back pack. I bought a midsized about 21 inch machete and a canvas sheath for about 4 dollars in Columbia

In a SHTF scenario the ability to carry a single device that would double as a hatchet, game tool, silent weapon would be useful. I saw several people in the backcountry who had terrible wounds from defending them sselves by raising their arms against a machete blow. including one memorable guy who wandered on the hospital grounds with his forearm stuck to his head by the machete stuck in his head. he lived. at least long enough to leave the hospital.

[rudolf]

Swords are not meant for confronting. That's hollywood silliness.
Swords a either for:
- a quick disarm. When the enemy tries tu pull or aim his handgun, aim for the elbow. The rest is obvious, dis-arm :)
- stop the enemy. As he needs his head to do anything, either make them decide which half to use by splitting it or make it easy for them by removing the head.

Standing around and looking tough will mostly get you killed, immediate action with ANY weapon will mostly help you prevail.

[scout26]

Pauli,

You owe me:
1. A new monitor.
2. A new keyboard.
3. New nose hairs and sinuses. Freshly brewed and extremely hot Darjeeling through the nose is excruciating. (While I can't smell a thing, I can breathe much easier, so okay, you're off the hook for the first two. :D )

I can only add I have visions of the BG in my hallway saying in a Monty Python accent "It's only a flesh wound.", after I hack his arm off with my US Army Officer's Saber. With Mrs. Scout26 saying "What in the name of all that is Sacred and Holy are you doing ????" She then shoots said BG with her shotgun and turns to me. "Next time you do something that stupid, I might shoot you too. Now go clean up the mess you made."

[bad LT]

Swords would be preferable you firearms if:

1) You cannot leagally have a firearm (in NY city, Chiciago, Japan, etc.)

2) You live in a situation where all rounds will penetrate into neighbors (apartment buildings, etc.)

A sword can defeat a firearm IF YOU USE THE PROPER TACTICS!!! My sugestion is you protect one room. Intruder with weapon enters your room, you hit him with your sword (or baseball bat or chair, etc.). Don't give an intruduer the chance to inflict harm upon you, defend yourself.

[natedog]

How about fight CQB all alone against multiple opponents with a handgun in one hand and a sword in the other?

I think I'd rather put distance between them and I, and keep both hands on my most effective weapon (if you can't guess, it isn't the sword).

[nfl1990]

I think if your going to go through the trouble of concealing a sword you may as well get somthing like an M1 carbine with a bayonet (same lenth, but a hell of a lot more usefull).

[sacp81170a]

Having been in numerous Iaido classes and competitions, I can unequivocally say that carrying a sword is a big pain in the a$$. Clumsy, you have to be very careful not to bump your saya against anything, which is especially difficult in Western architecture which is not well suited to carrying a full size katana in your obi. Most samurai simply carried their swords in their hand much like a walking stick (but not used as such) a majority of the time. Some of the koryu incorporate techniques which use the saya (scabbard) as a blocking and striking implement based on this type of in-hand carry.

Within about 10 yards, I'd give the swordsman the hands down advantage over the gunman. To disarm a gun wielding opponent, simply cut off the hand holding the gun. He will have no way to stop you from doing this, and the kote stroke is extremely quick, near impossible to avoid if you have no experience against it.

That said, unless you have some way to make about 26-30 of blade unnoticeable, it's gonna be real obvious that you're carrying.

The advantage that sword training gives you is steadiness of nerve and good posture. The footwork that I use for shooting on the move is called ayumi ashi in kendo class, and training in walking while holding the tip of the shinai steady is great training for holding the front sight of your pistol steady while on the move.

Train sword, fight with gun and knife. History makes the winner of the debate clear.

[Biker]

sacp
You state that within 10 yards, you would give the swordsman the advantage. Is that if the gunman already had his gun in his hand?
Biker

[50 Freak]

A sword is very useful in a tactical situation if your opponent is using airsoft. :D :D

[oh blanky]

I think if I ate 7 purple microdots about an hour and a half ago I would prefer a rubber sword and a pack of marlboros.

[Biker]

Blanky....BLANKYYYY!!!

That one hurt...I'm still laughing.
Biker

[sacp81170a]

You state that within 10 yards, you would give the swordsman the advantage. Is that if the gunman already had his gun in his hand?

Biker

That's from an even draw. My old kendo sensei could cross the dojo and hit you over the head (men) before you could even move. Remember the angles and ranges involved. Iai practitioners practice nukitsuke (cutting on the draw) over and over and over. One of the ways we overcome cramped quarters on the draw is saya biki, or manipulating the scabbard so that you are partially drawing the sword as well as pulling the scabbard off of it. Morote tsuki from seitei iai is one technique that would be particularly appropriate. By slightly altering the angle of the nukitsuke (drawing cut), you could cut the angle the gunman would be using to draw his weapon.

Iai techniques are intended to give the swordsman an advantage by minimizing the time required to get the first cut in. With no good way to stop the cut, a gunman has less than an even chance to survive. Fortunately, skilled swordsmen are few and far between these days.

That said, if I were confronted with a sword-wielding opponent, my strategy would be to draw and shoot him before he had an opportunity to get his sword out. Then I would claim self-defense because I have accurate knowledge of how quickly a blade can be put to use and how deadly it can be. It's damn hard to block a bullet with your sword. :-) Your point about gun in hand is well taken, and history bears out the advantage of firearms.

Firearms were strictly controlled in feudal Japan primarily because any peasant could learn how to kill effectively in a very short period of time, as opposed to the years of training required to become a skilled swordsman. This threatened the special status of the samurai and could not be tolerated. Oda Nobunaga was despised for his use of peasant conscripts and firearms in his military campaigns. The advantage, even with matchlocks, was with the guns.

[Biker]

Yes. If drawing from concealment in the situation you describe, I imagine I'd get cut open from rectum to appetite. Speaking from experience, I don't look good in red. :(
And yes, Nobunaga's matchlock-armed ashigaru nearly helped him complete his conquest.
Biker

[ctdonath]

Being trained in both sword (Iaido BB) and pistol (LFI-IV), I timed both. Videotaped myself applying both and counted the frames (1/30th second each).
From rest and within effective range, each can be drawn and applied in practically the same time. Details here (http://www.donath.org/Rants/SwordVsGun/).

[silverlance]

i have a sig p228 in a mini gunvault. it's loaded, not chambered (i'm of two minds about that part), and under the bed where it's very quickly accessible.

but i have about 14 sword sets scattered about the house between my roommate and i, katanas and wakasashis sitting on nice stands, and in my room i have 1 katana, 1 single piece short sword with no handguard, 1 wakasashi, 1 tanto, 1 m1 bayonet, and 3 folding knives.

they're all tastefully arranged.

now it's true, if i see a bg coming, i'll lock and load, but what if i look up from the blinding glare of my monitor on THR and there's a crazy mofo in the doorway?

id probably yank out the ranger shortsword (the one with no hilt, just a single piece of black steel with a rope hilt, 21 inch blade, bought it for ten bucks off CTD) and charge him, trying to shove him out the door so I can lock it and get my gun. or just gut him. that's if my dog doesnt do it for me first (hes always right next to me).

ps: don't laugh at the mallninja CTD cheapie sword. I have 1200$ katanas and i still keep this one next to me because it's fast, agile, and effective. it lies right next to the keyboard unsheatedin a little groove and id much rather keep this lying out than my p228. too much risk of theft, misuse, etc... and general pain in the ass to have to lock it away each time i leave the room or the house.

course if i lived in a CCW state or in kern county id carry all the time, and look at my swords fondly....

[sacp81170a]

ctdonath

Being trained in both sword (Iaido BB) and pistol (LFI-IV), I timed both. Videotaped myself applying both and counted the frames (1/30th second each).
From rest and within effective range, each can be drawn and applied in practically the same time.

Interesting read. Your conclusions match what I have observed from watching and practicing with both master swordsmen and top level IPSC competitors. Given that many of the myths of the "stopping power" of handguns have been debunked on this forum, I'd rather be the guy with the sword than the guy with the gun.

Past four or five steps, and the gunman *might* be able to evade long enough to survive. That 10 yards I was talking about stems from my practice in muso-shinden ryu. Many of our forms include techniques to chase down a fleeing opponent and cut him down from behind. Another complication is that we don't necessarily perform the nukitsuke on the first step. If the gunman didn't react right away, the swordsman would have two or three steps covered before he even made the motion to draw. Solution: shoot the bastard before he can get any closer. :evil:

[PaladinVC]

Costume Party

Post-Apocalyptic zombie attack

Walking the Glory Road

Not much else. Even in Musashi's day, guns were preferable in some situations. With modern actions, ammo proliferation and concealability, gus beat swords just about every way. Besides, a good sword costs way more than a good gun.

[boofus]

If I had to mow the lawn and trim the hedges I would prefer a sword to a gun. Unless the ammo is free. Then I would do your yardwork with a gun for free. :D

[Janitor]

How does 1 conceal a sword?
Learn to walk with a limp.

[sacp81170a]

How does 1 conceal a sword?

Learn to walk with a limp.

Interesting observation. Musashi himself in his later years sometimes used wooden implements instead of steel for sword combat. The prevailing opinion among master swordsmen is that wood is easier to obtain, cheaper and less prone to failure through faulty maintenance. Once a certain level of skill is obtained, it doesn't matter if the swordsman is using a sword or a stick. Case in point: Tesshu.

An interesting aside, a couple of years ago just after 9/11/01, I flew from NWA regional airport through Houston and on to Las Vegas for Comdex with a cane. Security folks ran it through the x-ray machine and some of the stewardesses wanted me to put it in the overhead baggage compartment, but NOT ONE questioned my possesion of it when I affected a slight limp and claimed bone spurs in my heel. If they had known how much more effective a cane is than a knife at close quarters, they would have wet themselves.

Sword training can come in handy, after all. :)

[ctdonath]

I've been the, er, subject for cane fighting demonstrations several times. Trust me, you don't want to be on the wrong side of a cane in a fight.

I've taken a couple travelling. Gets thru security & on board & everywhere else no problem.

The one issue I _have_ encountered is: people who know you get kinda screwy when they see you with a cane and know you don't need it. Probing questions, insults, unspoken concerns (both about your physical and mental condition), etc. - does have an effect. Unless you can make it cool/fashionable/necessary, there's a wierd psychological barrier.

[thorn726]

so i have a sword i made myself form a flat steel bar.
first off , we have these reasons-
1) You cannot leagally have a firearm (in NY city, Chiciago, Japan, etc.)

2) You live in a situation where all rounds will penetrate into neighbors (apartment buildings, etc.)


the legality isnt so bad here, but once i got outside, and i occasionally do a late night pass around my building, too many thieves.
there's a lot of assumption that most of you wouldnt take here= as in i am assuming 99.99% of the thieves that are dumb enough to be robbing cars in my lot would not have anything greater than a small knife.

2 bit thieves are too cracked out to keep a gun, they trade them for drugs, and are always being searched by cops.
a big risk , i know./ i should probably pack a BUG in my pocket

anyway, on my landlord's property but outside my apt, sword is all that is legal.

INSIDE= now you all might laugh at this, but my worst case, a break in=
grab sword, holding with right (weak) hand , flat blade diagonal in a weak attempt to cover my heart (its pretty thick steel).

id still want the gun, but if intruder is unarmed, i can use sword and just pocket the gun. if intruder was armed, i got something covering my vitals, barely, but better than nothing.

[Lupinus]

It's a five page thread, no I havn't read all of it.

But to the origional question of when a sword would be better then a gun?

Good question.

Maybe cutting your ham sandwhich in half after your gun scares the crap out of the little thug that broke into your house.