Man Shoots Two Mormons Going Door To Door


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rick_reno
January 4, 2006, 12:40 PM
http://www.local6.com/news/5813181/detail.html

CHESAPEAKE, Va. -- A Mormon missionary going door to door was fatally shot Monday night and a fellow missionary was wounded by an assailant who fled, police said.

The attacks happened just after 6 p.m. in the Deep Creek area of the city, police said, when a man approached the two, shot them and ran away.

One of the victims ran to a nearby nursing home seeking help, police said.

The missionaries were identified by church spokesmen Dale Bills and Michael Purdy as Elders Morgan Young, 21, of Bountiful, Utah, and Joshua Heidbrink of Greeley, Colo. Chesapeake police said he is 19.

They were taken to Sentara Norfolk General Hospital, where Young later died, spokeswoman Cheri Hinshelwood said. Heidbrink was upgraded to good condition Tuesday morning, she said.

Police described the gunman as a black male about 5 feet 10 inches . They said he was wearing a black hooded sweatshirt and denim jeans.

Police shut down part of the neighborhood while searching for the man.

"This is close to home," said Bobby Gatling, who said he has lived on the block for two years. "Nothing like this has ever happened here before."

There was no immediate word on what prompted the shootings.

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Biker
January 4, 2006, 12:46 PM
In my neck of the woods, Morman missionaries are a common sight. I mean ya can't swing a dead cat without hittin' ten of 'em.
Nice enough folks, but I fully expect to see a 'gang fight' in my driveway between the Mormans and the Jehova's Witnesses some day.
:evil:
Biker

KaceCoyote
January 4, 2006, 12:49 PM
Was bound to happen when folks got bored with answering the door nude and armed.

Lupinus
January 4, 2006, 12:53 PM
I just had JW's yesterday.

Fun to answer the door twitch a little act generaly off you meds and invite them in for milk and cookies with your playmates...who happen to be invisible due to loaned Klingon cloaking tech.

armoredman
January 4, 2006, 12:56 PM
I had a friend who would always slide a porno movie in the VCR when missionaries of any kind came in, and watch it while ignoring them.
Regardless, this scumbag needs to be caught and hung, I mean, prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

ingram
January 4, 2006, 01:05 PM
I didn't realize shooting was an option when mormons come knocking on my door. :D







kidding.

exoduster18
January 4, 2006, 01:13 PM
I've heard of people being angered when people of various faiths come knocking on their door. But to actually shoot someone? WOW.

Just do as Jeff Foxworthy does. Put out some crime scene tape, have someone lay down on your porch and draw their outline with some chalk and then throw some religous pamphlets down around the area. That would take care of them without you having to shoot someone.

V4Vendetta
January 4, 2006, 01:16 PM
"I fully expect to see a 'gang fight' in my driveway between the Mormans and the Jehova's Witnesses some day."

I doubt it will happen. I don't know too much about the Mormans but the JW's are not the vioent sort. They don't get involved in wars. They remain neutral always. I understand some might not like they go door to door preaching, but shooting at them is just wrong. Just say that your not interested.

sm
January 4, 2006, 01:19 PM
I am sorry to hear of this, my best sent to surviving victim and to familes of both- and the Church.

I'm not Mormon. I am a Responsible Firearm Owner, one who happens to be a member of THR/ TFL and other sister sites.

Society has/ continues to change. Makes no nevermind whom is going door to door, Girlscouts selling cookies, Boy Scouts doing neighborhood projects, Church folks inviting folks...

We do not discuss Religion on THR/TFL. We do - or should - discuss with our locales , with Scouts and Churches how society is not always safe, various ploys used by BGs to gain access, confidence of elderly to harm them.

Being Responsible we educate folks , suggest why going door to door and why some are concerned. Perhaps offer constructive ideas. Even if we do not agree with, or particpate in that organization.

How would YOU feel if a family member, a relative were simply trying to do something they believed and were harmed. Maybe all they wanted were to invite folks of the neighborhood to a meeting to make neighborhood more secure...a simple neighborhood watch meeting...

I shared with a Mormon classmate, a lady, how folks are leary, and she shared with her Church (elders?). She had moved from a smaller town and everyone knew everyone and neighborhoods were different- more receptive.

I mean different faiths pitched in when a tornado came thru...human beings being human and doing for each other. I do not feel this a Belief Specific thing...no matter if one has a specific belief, none, or lukewarm.

This medium, THR/ TFL can be used to show those not members, instead link to us via search engines, that WE Responsible Firearm Owners are civil, concerned, and lead by example.

Or at least that is the perception I want to send.

Pretty sure that is the one some of our Staff - Mormons want to project.
Pretty sure that is the one some of our Staff - Catholic want to project.
Pretty sure that is the one the Person whom keeps this site up and running wants to project and his Beliefs are constantly bashed on this site.

TTPO

Steve

trickyasafox
January 4, 2006, 01:24 PM
thats terrible. one of those kids died and they were my age. there are like 3 or 4 mormon kids at my college, not to stereotype, but they are the nicest people. hope the other one turns out okay

BHPshooter
January 4, 2006, 01:30 PM
This is all over the news in Utah.

So far, they are pretty sure that the missionaries witnessed a crime in progress, which would definitely explain why they were shot.

Basically, anything like this is a very sad affair. Pretty tragic.

Wes

BozemanMT
January 4, 2006, 01:31 PM
Thsi is just horrible and I feel for those families.

Agree or disagree with their religion/philosophy, they are really nice people. (BTW, there are female Mormon missionaries too) who believe in their stuff and willing to give of their time and money for what they believe in. You gotta respect that.

Why be mean when they come to your door?, just say you aren't interested and have a nice day and move on?

Sleeping Dog
January 4, 2006, 01:43 PM
Why be mean when they come to your door?
From reading the story, it appears they weren't shot by someone answering a door, but by someone approaching from elsewhere. The Mormon missionaries were probably not armed.

Regards.

BozemanMT
January 4, 2006, 02:39 PM
From reading the story, it appears they weren't shot by someone answering a door, but by someone approaching from elsewhere. The Mormon missionaries were probably not armed.

Regards.
Yes, I know that Mormon missionaries aren't armed:uhoh:
My point was to other posters who talked about putting on porn, or slamming doors or whatever instead of just saying "not interested" and being mean to these young men of whatever religion.

antsi
January 4, 2006, 02:40 PM
The Mormon missionaries were probably not armed.

They swear off all kinds of things when they are on a mission, including firearms. They don't watch TV, or listen to secular music, or any one of hundreds of other things. They make great sacrifices for what they believe in.

KaceCoyote
January 4, 2006, 02:48 PM
Yaknow...Missouri Law specifically states its legal to kill Mormons..

Model520Fan
January 4, 2006, 02:53 PM
"I fully expect to see a 'gang fight' in my driveway between the Mormans and the Jehova's Witnesses some day."

I doubt it will happen. I don't know too much about the Mormans but the JW's are not the vioent sort. They don't get involved in wars. They remain neutral always. I understand some might not like they go door to door preaching, but shooting at them is just wrong. Just say that your not interested.

Hey, that's easy for you to say. You're from a part of the country where folks actually have some respect for other folks' religious beliefs . [At least I think they still do - they certainly did when I lived in W-S as a child.]

520

usp_fan
January 4, 2006, 02:57 PM
Kace,

The extermination order was repealed and an applogy given--about a century too late.

I was a Missionary in TX. Had a couple of buddies that were doing the same thing get shot at one night. Luckily, the shooter missed and these guys ducked away on their bikes. I feel for these families. Prayers sent.

--usp_fan

Jubei
January 4, 2006, 02:58 PM
One of my old runnin' buddies family are Jehovahs Witnesses, they were some of the nicest people. The JWs and Mormons could be a little bothersome when they came by and you are busy, but I found them to be a source of entertainment when I was bored. I used to get into religious discussions/debates with them for what seemed like hours on end. It used to drive my roommate nuts.

Never got the urge to shoot one though.

I hope they get the SOB that shot them.

Jubei

tube_ee
January 4, 2006, 03:07 PM
They swear off all kinds of things when they are on a mission, including firearms. They don't watch TV, or listen to secular music, or any one of hundreds of other things. They make great sacrifices for what they believe in.

I don't know about that... Most of the missionaries I knew (a good friends dad was some sort of high-muckety-muck in the LDS church, and always hosted misssionaries) spent their weekdays passing out literature, Sundays in church, and Fridays and Saturdays getting drunk and smoking pot with us heathens.

They freely admitted they were doing it for the money. About 25 grand each, IIRC, and a couple of them got brand new cars thrown in. Whether this is the exception or the rule, I don't know, but I've seen it a lot.

As for rudeness, well, I put them in the same moral category as telemarketers, and they get the same treatment. The fact that the product is religion makes no difference to me. It's a sales job, and one I didn't ask to be subjected to.

None of which means that I don't feel for these kids and their families. I wonder what the real story is here. Somehow I doubt it was

Ding-Dong

"Hello, we'd like to talk to you about Jesu..."

BLAM!! BLAM!!

SLAM!


--Shannon

BozemanMT
January 4, 2006, 03:12 PM
tube_ee,
there is no money paid to be a Mormon missionary.
they PAY to go on a mission (it's somewhere around 10 grand now) and spend two years of their life to preach their religion.
No drugs, no alcohol, darn little free time
and no gauranteed jobs to come back to.

oldschool
January 4, 2006, 03:12 PM
Being as my favorite Mormon of all time was also the Best Firearms Inventor of all time IMHO (Gaston Fanatics just drop it :evil:, John Moses. Iíd be dis-inclined to bust a cap at one.
There is a hilarious story in one of Browningís Biographyís where John was in Alabama or Georgia doing missionary work and JMB saw one of his lever-action shotguns in a window and asked to look at it, he handled it and checked the smoothness of the action and the storeís owner said he looked like he knew his way around that gun and Johnís fellow missionary commented that heĒought to cause he designed itĒ. The biography also relates being shot at and Johnís father being run out of Illinois for being a Mormon.

V4Vendetta
January 4, 2006, 03:19 PM
"It's a sales job, and one I didn't ask to be subjected to."

JW's don't sell literature. They give it to those who are interested free of charge. If you want to make a donation, that's fine. If not, still fine.

bnelson2943
January 4, 2006, 03:23 PM
I hesitate to write this cuz a lot of you will say "can't he take a joke?" Yes I can when it's funny and not insensitive. The point I think of this posting was to bring attention to the assine things some low lifes do with firearms and to keep us motivated us as gun owners to help get these b*#!#eds off the streets. To use this sad event to make light of self sacrificing people comming to your door really shows the darker side of this community. A boy of 21 was killed. A child was lost. A family was desimated. I shed tears not send jokes. I'm not a mormon but I know a lot of good people who are. Their sons and daughters who go on these missions are good well intentioned kids who come back very responsible adults. Sorry to be such a downer but let's keep the human side in perspective. Nuf said

Ala Dan
January 4, 2006, 03:26 PM
Well written sm my friend~!:scrutiny:

As you have made many a valid point.:D

spacemanspiff
January 4, 2006, 03:48 PM
in my younger years i enjoyed participating in the preaching work, and i have encountered plenty of rude people. never witnessed any crimes though, and rarely felt uneasy by the people answering the doors.

it takes a lot of courage to knock on someones door unannounced and attempt to engage them in a discussion of a spiritual nature.


to those of you who are fed up with getting your doorbell rung by Jehovah's Witnesses, i suggest writing a letter to the nearest Kingdom Hall stating that you do not want any more visits, or give them a call even.
i have a lot more respect for people who are up front about it. i've lost count of the times i've seen people duck and hide in their own home because they simply did not want to answer the door.

hso
January 4, 2006, 04:18 PM
Sad, whether because they witnessed a crime or because of some lunatic's hate.

Thanks, SM.

Camp David
January 4, 2006, 04:28 PM
Ding-Dong

"Hello, we'd like to talk to you about Jesu..."

BLAM!! BLAM!!

SLAM!

A neighbor up the street has a doberman-type dog he calls 'Mormon'; I never knew why...:confused:...Now I do! ;)

Old Dog
January 4, 2006, 04:34 PM
Don't mean to preach here, but I don't understand anyone who advocates being rude to, ridiculing, or slamming the door on, religious missionaries at one's front door ...

As others must be occasionally, I get irritated if I have to answer my front door while I'm eating ... or on the computer or telephone or even the throne ... or while watching Sportscenter ... but I've never had a problem telling any solicitors, religious or otherwise, "I'm sorry, I'm just not interested; good bye." Why is it a problem to be polite to someone who rings your doorbell? Especially Mormons or Jehovah's Witnesses, who will readily thank you and immediately take their leave once you've let them know you're busy or not interested in their message?

Half the members of my last gun club were Mormon. One of my all-time best friends, a sports and shooting buddy, over the last twenty years, is an observant Mormon.

antsi
January 4, 2006, 04:36 PM
I don't know about that... Most of the missionaries I knew (a good friends dad was some sort of high-muckety-muck in the LDS church, and always hosted misssionaries) spent their weekdays passing out literature, Sundays in church, and Fridays and Saturdays getting drunk and smoking pot with us heathens.

They freely admitted they were doing it for the money. About 25 grand each, IIRC, and a couple of them got brand new cars thrown in. Whether this is the exception or the rule, I don't know, but I've seen it a lot.


I don't know what you think you are talking about here, but LDS missionaries don't get paid, let alone 25 grand, let alone "do it for the money." They pay their own way; it COSTS them money to go on a mission.

And I guess it is possible a small fraction of missionaries engage in the kind of behavior you describe but I am quite certain it is not the majority nor even a significant minority.

jtward01
January 4, 2006, 04:39 PM
I just had JW's yesterday.

How did you cook them?

Creeping Incrementalism
January 4, 2006, 04:45 PM
but I've never had a problem telling any solicitors, religious or otherwise, "I'm sorry, I'm just not interested; good bye." Why is it a problem to be polite to someone who rings your doorbell?

Because it's disrespectful of other people's time to interrupt whatever they are doing for something they will be almost certainly uninterested in. If you go out of your way to bother and hassle someone like this, you should expect rudeness back.

crofrog
January 4, 2006, 04:50 PM
I just don't come to the door. Nor do I answer the phone. The people that need to reach me either come right in or call me on my cell phone. It's easier that way.

Chris

itgoesboom
January 4, 2006, 05:02 PM
I think this is terrible that this guy did this.

I don't really like them coming to my door, especially the guys that came to my door while my wife was in early labor, which made our German Shepherd go nuts, which ofcourse didn't really help my wife relax during labor. :fire:

My next door neighbor is a Morman, and is a very nice guy, someone who I would like to get to know better, as long as his religion isn't pushed on me.

I may not like them coming door to door, but I don't call the cops on them like I do door-door salesmen. We have a city ordinance against soliciting without a permit that I use against salespeople (except girlscouts selling cookies :p). I ask to see their permits, if they don't have one, I inform them of the law and that if I see them continue to solicit I will call the police. Last guy looked confused, walked around my property looking for a no-soliciting sign, so I told him he was now trespassing, and he had 10 seconds to vacate before the cops were called.

He left and continued to solicit, until the police cruiser pulled onto the street :evil:


I.G.B.

Pebcac
January 4, 2006, 05:11 PM
Because it's disrespectful of other people's time to interrupt whatever they are doing for something they will be almost certainly uninterested in. If you go out of your way to bother and hassle someone like this, you should expect rudeness back.

Huh? Any of the missionaries that have ever knocked on my door have thanked me for my time and left after I've told them I'm not interested. I've even once invited a couple of the Mormon guys in for some ice water since they were out in the middle of a Mississippi summer trying to do some good. I guess I should've put the water hose to them since they decided to bother and hassle me so rudely. :rolleyes:

Old Dog
January 4, 2006, 05:14 PM
Because it's disrespectful of other people's time to interrupt whatever they are doing for something they will be almost certainly uninterested in.Ah, well ... perhaps my time is just not as valuable as yours; I don't begrudge that thirty seconds or so it takes me to dismiss unwanted callers.

The concept of door-to-door sales has pretty much gone out of vogue (and obviously become much more dangerous) these days; yet, one is left to wonder in this day and age of caller-ID, screening phone calls and visitors, how long it'll be before Americans' new-found love of uninterrupted privacy and unwelcoming attitudes toward anything remotely unexpected or unknown renders all of our communication and human interactions strictly one-way ... and over the internet, probably ...

Was a day in this country when people were social, and even if they didn't want to talk to someone, offered them a sincere, "Good day" and sent them on their way with a smile.

If you go out of your way to bother and hassle someone like this, you should expect rudeness back.What ye sow, so shall ye reap. I find it much easier myself to just say, "Hey, and please don't come back ... but good luck with your efforts."

LJWebster1
January 4, 2006, 05:39 PM
I'm a Latter-day Saint (LDS--we prefer that to Mormon) and served a mission in Hong Kong. If I was supposed to get paid $25k, I guess I better find out who messed up, cause I didn't get it! I paid to be there, over $10,000. I did it to try and help people. Sure, some missionaries break the rules, but it's tough to do, given that you always have another missionary with you, so you have to get two of you who want to break the rules, or you'll end up in the Mission President's office right quick. I had people yell, spit, swear and throw stuff at me, but it didn't bother me too much. Some people are just like that. I feel bad for the families of these guys, but I know that it won't change their minds about missions, and if they have younger sons, they'll most likely serve missions when they are 19 too.

Thanks to those of you who are not of our faith but have said kind words of encouragement and support. It's a tough time when a missionary is killed, and thankfully, it doesn't happen often.

Bullet Bob
January 4, 2006, 05:45 PM
"JW's don't sell literature."
_____________________________________________________________
I think the original poster meant that they're peddling their religious beliefs, which they are.

I lived in an area with a strong Mormon population for five years, and even worked for the stake Bishop for awhile. Nice folks, but I wouldn't want to live in Utah where you're either one of them, or something less.

I don't want any innocent people shot or hurt, and am very sorry for these young people.

Biker
January 4, 2006, 05:48 PM
In Idaho we have a saying; Always take at least two Mormans fishing with you. If you only take one, he'll drink all of your beer.

:neener:

They really are great family people and can cook one heck of a Thanksgiving dinner.:)

Biker

crofrog
January 4, 2006, 05:48 PM
Are there rules about the LDS's packing heat when they go door to door?

Chris

LJWebster1
January 4, 2006, 05:54 PM
Missionaries are prohibited from having any weapons. Since you don't serve in your home state, and are generally under 21, getting a concealed weapon license in most states wouldn't be easy anyway.

rick_reno
January 4, 2006, 06:07 PM
They swear off all kinds of things when they are on a mission, including firearms. They don't watch TV, or listen to secular music, or any one of hundreds of other things. They make great sacrifices for what they believe in.

Last fall I had a couple come up to my place - during deer season. They weren't from this area (southern Utah and Samoa) so I asked them if they wanted to go deer hunting - I'd be happy to show them some good spots. They said deer hunting was prohibited while doing their mission. Nice kids, very polite and every time they came they were trying to help me do something around the place.

Strings
January 4, 2006, 06:10 PM
Given the info in the OP, I tend to agree that they saw a crime being commited.

As for the whole door to door thing: I don't have a problem giving such people a polit "thanks, but I'm not interested". However, we've had a couple (JWs, not LDS) that were trying to force their way into the house. Not bright, not bright at all...

georgeduz
January 4, 2006, 06:10 PM
they are good kids,dont belive in them.but always nice.

V4Vendetta
January 4, 2006, 06:16 PM
"However, we've had a couple (JWs, not LDS) that were trying to force their way into the house."

Where & when was this? That's not how JW's preach. Are sure they were real JW's & not some punks trying to imitate JW's in order to get in your house?

LJWebster1
January 4, 2006, 06:22 PM
I agree. I've never had any Jehovahs Witnesses be at all pushy. Having been a missionary myself, I always treat them with respect. If it's hot out, I usually offer to have them come in to cool off and have a drink of water. If they offer their written materials, I offer to trade some of mine for some of theirs, and they never take me up on the offer, but I know they appreciate the kindness, I sure did when it was me.

Rock45
January 4, 2006, 06:29 PM
A subtle reminder to all...This is "The High Road"...Let's all try to "take it".

Thanks

Bryan:scrutiny:

tube_ee
January 4, 2006, 06:33 PM
To those whom I offended:

Sorry. I should have known better, because I can see how easy it would be for people to think I was generalizing, but just for the record, I wasn't. As someone's .sig here says, "The plural of 'anecdote' is not 'data'." I would add, neither is the singular. But I see where the confusion came.

I reported what I saw. My comments apply only to the individuals I referred to, although I have heard "I'll get paid after my mission" from most of the Mormon missionaries I have known. Most of whom came from upper-middle-class families (at least). The Mormon church in Southern California definitely skews up the income ladder, so these kids may reflect that.

And yes, it is rude to knock on someone's door or ring their phone and try to pitch something. Even if that something is not a thing but an idea. Even if you think that idea is the greatest idea ever concieved by the mind of man. Even if it is the greatest idea ever concieved by the mind of man. If want information about something, I'll ask for it. If someone hasn't asked about my beliefs, I assume that they're not interested in them. This is elementary politeness, and I expect the recieve the same from others. Even if you think God told you otherwise. If you offer me rudeness, expect rudeness in return. If you don't want to experience me being rude to you, don't call me, and stay off my porch.

Again, apopolgies to those offended by my earlier post. It was never my intention to generalize, and I should have made that clear. Or maybe even kept my keyboard shut.

--Shannon

Jim March
January 4, 2006, 06:50 PM
I was actually raised JW and yeah, knocked on more than a few doors as a kid through mid-teens. Not one now, never actually baptised (an adult thing with them). I respect 'em, I just don't think they've got quite all the answers they think they do.

I can tell you a few things from the other side though. They keep meticulous records of visit intervals, so as not to annoy one door too often. Tell 'em not to come back, they won't, that record will go into the file for that chunk of territory, BUT they'll also record when the house goes up for sale or other evidence of a move says "put it back in rotation" :D. They'll hit a particular territory, record who wasn't home as they go and work that area for a couple weeks focusing purely on those who hadn't yet answered and skipping those who had.

"Barging in" is NOT standard. Probably a particularly zealous newbie convert.

Their knowledge of scripture is astounding if you're comparing average churchgoers of their faith versus any other. Five hours a week of teaching, extremely low cost literature means they all have giant libraries. And of those five hours, one is a literal class in public speaking in which they rotate at the pulpit for at least five minutes at a time, working out of a public speaking training manual that's pretty good and then getting critiqued right afterwards by a minister for a minute or two about what they did right or wrong :).

Trust me, at age 9 that was a nightmare but the training was just plain invaluable later in life.

In the 1920s/30s era they experimented with other forms of evangelism including radio. Gave that up as too expensive and hence avoided the whole "televangelist" trap. They tried cars with big loudspeakers on top...that was too annoying (and hey, when THEY think something is too annoying, you can bet it sure as heck is!). Door-knocking was what they were left with as being dirt cheap and less invasive than the sound cars.

What else...ain't no way they'll get in fights with Mormons :p.

Mormons do "missionary work" for two years, and pay for it. JWs don't pay, but they do preach door to door ALL their lives as personal time permits and are encouraged to do so from the pulpit a LOT. Some JWs pledge more time than most, signing up as "pioneers" but that's on a month-to-month basis with no "sin" for not being able to cut it (around 60 hours a week). Foreign missionaries are unpaid but get basic expenses.

By contrast, they're never asked for money, only time out door-knocking: the only "money plea" ever heard is that every month one of the (unpaid) congregation elders reads the statement of accounts and if they're a hair short a bit more will turn up in the anonymous untracked contribution box in the back. Same at the big assemblies, a statement of books gets read towards the end with no other comment. This distinct lack of "money grubbing" is one of their best traits.

The really interesting part is the REASON they're out knocking. It's not just about converts. They think once every door is knocked, every person offered a chance...God takes back control over the whole planet.

What else...guns. JWs aren't pure pacifists in the Amish sense. They believe in self defense, although many are rather..."sheeple oriented" but that's not uncommon among any churchgoing population. Hunting and even CCW isn't forbidden so long as it's legal. If there is a threat from *animals* they'll go armed while door-knocking, such as trying to get to back-woods Alaska or some other place deep in bear country, but they'd make sure any such are as unobtrusive as possible and put away unless the critter risk is quite high.

They refuse to join militaries more out of a sense that "they're part of God's kingdom versus any earthly kingdom" (same reason they won't vote, pledge to a flag or join a political party) and as a bonus they can truthfully say that no two JWs have ever shot at each other across a battlefield. I've met elderly JWs with concentration camp tattoos courtesy of Hitler and company, the only group in the camps that could have gotten out by joining the German Army or saluting Hitler if female. Very, very few did...a lot died.

Like I say, I do respect 'em.

And the Mormons, and virtually all other faiths barring a few cults of course...I consider Dr. King, Ghandi and the Dali Lama personal heros one and all.

Put up with the quirks of the door-knockers and the like and hey, maybe somebody else will put up with your quirks one day.

Think of it as Karma :D.

V4Vendetta
January 4, 2006, 06:57 PM
I was actually raised JW and yeah, knocked on more than a few doors as a kid through mid-teens. Not one now, never actually baptised (an adult thing with them). I respect 'em, I just don't think they've got quite all the answers they think they do.

I can tell you a few things from the other side though. They keep meticulous records of visit intervals, so as not to annoy one door too often. Tell 'em not to come back, they won't, that record will go into the file for that chunk of territory, BUT they'll also record when the house goes up for sale or other evidence of a move says "put it back in rotation" :D. They'll hit a particular territory, record who wasn't home as they go and work that area for a couple weeks focusing purely on those who hadn't yet answered and skipping those who had.

"Barging in" is NOT standard. Probably a particularly zealous newbie convert.

Their knowledge of scripture is astounding if you're comparing average churchgoers of their faith versus any other. Five hours a week of teaching, extremely low cost literature means they all have giant libraries. And of those five hours, one is a literal class in public speaking in which they rotate at the pulpit for at least five minutes at a time, working out of a public speaking training manual that's pretty good and then getting critiqued right afterwards by a minister for a minute or two about what they did right or wrong :).

Trust me, at age 9 that was a nightmare but the training was just plain invaluable later in life.

In the 1920s/30s era they experimented with other forms of evangelism including radio. Gave that up as too expensive and hence avoided the whole "televangelist" trap. They tried cars with big loudspeakers on top...that was too annoying (and hey, when THEY think something is too annoying, you can bet it sure as heck is!). Door-knocking was what they were left with as being dirt cheap and less invasive than the sound cars.

What else...ain't no way they'll get in fights with Mormons :p.

Mormons do "missionary work" for two years, and pay for it. JWs don't pay, but they do preach door to door ALL their lives as personal time permits and are encouraged to do so from the pulpit a LOT. Some JWs pledge more time than most, signing up as "pioneers" but that's on a month-to-month basis with no "sin" for not being able to cut it (around 60 hours a week). Foreign missionaries are unpaid but get basic expenses.

By contrast, they're never asked for money, only time out door-knocking: the only "money plea" ever heard is that every month one of the (unpaid) congregation elders reads the statement of accounts and if they're a hair short a bit more will turn up in the anonymous untracked contribution box in the back. Same at the big assemblies, a statement of books gets read towards the end with no other comment. This distinct lack of "money grubbing" is one of their best traits.

The really interesting part is the REASON they're out knocking. It's not just about converts. They think once every door is knocked, every person offered a chance...God takes back control over the whole planet.

What else...guns. JWs aren't pure pacifists in the Amish sense. They believe in self defense, although many are rather..."sheeple oriented" but that's not uncommon among any churchgoing population. Hunting and even CCW isn't forbidden so long as it's legal. If there is a threat from *animals* they'll go armed while door-knocking, such as trying to get to back-woods Alaska or some other place deep in bear country, but they'd make sure any such are as unobtrusive as possible and put away unless the critter risk is quite high.

They refuse to join militaries more out of a sense that "they're part of God's kingdom versus any earthly kingdom" (same reason they won't vote, pledge to a flag or join a political party) and as a bonus they can truthfully say that no two JWs have ever shot at each other across a battlefield. I've met elderly JWs with concentration camp tattoos courtesy of Hitler and company, the only group in the camps that could have gotten out by joining the German Army or saluting Hitler if female. Very, very few did...a lot died.

Like I say, I do respect 'em.

And the Mormons, and virtually all other faiths barring a few cults of course...I consider Dr. King, Ghandi and the Dali Lama personal heros one and all.

Put up with the quirks of the door-knockers and the like and hey, maybe somebody else will put up with your quirks one day.

Think of it as Karma :D.


+1.

Strings
January 4, 2006, 07:09 PM
>Where & when was this? That's not how JW's preach. Are sure they were real JW's & not some punks trying to imitate JW's in order to get in your house?<

Well, if they were "punk imposters", then they REALLY blew the curve on age groups. The one I remember best was an elderly couple, who looked to be in their 70s at least. I chalk it up to simple over-zealousness...

If it happenes here, at MY home, there'll be a quick call to the local Kingdom Hall (or maybe even a polite visit).

redneck2
January 4, 2006, 07:19 PM
Two points.

First, it takes a ton of courage and guts to walk up to someone's house knowing you'll probably be treated rudely at best. These are some people that live their faith, whether you agree or not. I'd much rather have a JW or Mormon live next to me than Willie the Gang Banger. I think the Bible's pretty clear about living your faith

Second...these people can be a great source of entertainment

For example, pop open a beer and offer them one.

"I can't...alcohol is a sin"

"OK, what was Jesus first miracle???"

"Uh.....turning water into wine at the wedding feast"

"Sounds to me like Jesus bought for the party. If Jesus never sinned and had wine, how can alcohol be a sin??"

Typically, they'll ramble off something like "well, things were different then"

Ok, so if things were different and this part of the Bible is wrong, then it can all be wrong. After all, you just said things are different..

Every time they come to my house, they leave shaking their head without answers

Actually, they're quite easy to debate against and win. They typically want to pick and choose the specific parts they think are right and dismiss the others

Correia
January 4, 2006, 07:22 PM
Before anybody starts wanting to shoot the Mormons, three of your moderators here are LDS. Keep that in mind. And Iíve always struggled with the love and forgiveness end of thingsÖ

Let me explain a bit.

LDS missionaries are not paid. We pay our way. They go for 2 years. Usually beginning at the age of 19. They have a set of rules they need to obey while they are out there. If you havenít had experience with it you would be really surprised just what they give up. Pretty much most everything that you would normally do for fun. You work constantly. You get part of one day off a week, and you use that to do laundry and write letters home.

The door to door thing is called Tracting. Tracting is the single most futile way to meet people, and we are encouraged to do anything other than tracting to find people to teach. However the reason we still go door to door is that we are expected to work all day, every day. So if you have some time that isnít set aside for doing service, teaching, or other stuff, you keep working, and sometimes that means knocking on doors. It is a faith thing, and Mormon missionaries believe in trying to reach everybody that they can during their mission, hence the tracting.

If you donít want to listen, just tell them you arenít interested, or donít answer the door. There is no need to be rude. In my two years, I had two guns pointed at me, was chased by crack dealers, had a gun flashed at me by a banger, and was attacked by multiple dogs, including the biggest most evil German Shepherd in the universe. In my mission (Alabama, Birmingham) we had two missionaries get shot while I was there. (car jacking, one in the wrist, the other in the hand). We had about twenty of us get shot at. A few years before I got there we had an Elder murdered in a hit and run, suspect never found. I had a companion get severely concussed by a beer bottle tossed from the back of a moving pickup.

Yep, no need to be rude. They get plenty of it anyway.

Are there jerks who become missionaries? Sure, just like there are jerks in every single faith and job on Earth. The rules we agree to live by out there are very difficult. (I gave up GUNS for two years people) but we volunteer because it is something that we believe we are supposed to do. Take that for whatever thatís worth.

And for some of you folks posting here, yep, it sure is a funny joke when an innocent kid gets murdered. Letís all have a good laugh while his family weeps. Iíll refrain from what I want to say to some of you because Iím supposed to hold to a higher standard as one of the mods here.

Religion thread closed.

spacemanspiff
January 4, 2006, 07:22 PM
What else...guns. JWs aren't pure pacifists in the Amish sense. They believe in self defense, although many are rather..."sheeple oriented" but that's not uncommon among any churchgoing population. Hunting and even CCW isn't forbidden so long as it's legal. If there is a threat from *animals* they'll go armed while door-knocking, such as trying to get to back-woods Alaska or some other place deep in bear country, but they'd make sure any such are as unobtrusive as possible and put away unless the critter risk is quite high.
heh... well the gun issue for JW's up here in alaska is kind of an individual thing. most are okay with hunting, and target shooting, and defense against four-legged beasts. and the research i have done with other JW's in recent years has revealed that the JW organization is rather vague on the carrying of guns for self defense from two legged vermin. the most they will say is that they dont encourage the taking of a job where carrying a weapon is a requirement, with the argument that one may be forced to take anothers life, and have what they call 'bloodguilt', the killing of an innocent person.
however, they are strong advocates of the need in this day and age for law enforcement. i'm not sure if the two positions are contradictary.

i've met quite a few JW's that are very anti-gun as well. and the publications Watchtower and Awake tend to use heavily biased sources about gun violence such as from VPC and Brady.

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