Law and Order SVU (I gotta vent)


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Malfader13
January 4, 2006, 12:31 PM
I was watching SVU last night and what a nasty episode that was. Long story short it was about a study that had been done stating that children that witnessed gun violence were at least twice as likely to commit gun violence themselves. There is an actual study on this that was released in 2005, and though I am not familiar with the details of it, I am willing to bet it can be deconstructed by someone smarter then I. That there is a study isn't what erks me though. What dose is many people will take what was on SVU as absolute fact without finding out any information. They even had a lawyer for the NGA (national gun association), wonder who they are targeting there, who was a total ass. Oh and he was a total ass to a very nice young black boy. Once again the white male who is pro-gun is stereotyped, and badgering, at the least, a minority. And some, possibly many, will believe it though it is just a TV show. My wife and I were livid after this show. Now that I have calmed down, hugged and petted my guns :D , I thought I would vent a bit.

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Thefabulousfink
January 4, 2006, 12:49 PM
Law and Order (aka TNT's entire programming schedual) is a much overrated pile of steaming television garbage. The few times that I have been tempted to sit down and watch it I have either had Hollywood agenda crammed down my throat, or seen gross violations of power on the part of the characters.

If you want a good drama, watch 24 on FOX or the new Battlestar Galactica on SciFi.

Sindawe
January 4, 2006, 12:57 PM
Besides, Battlestar Galactica has cuter actresses. :evil:

About the only thing L&A is good for is background noise.

kwelz
January 4, 2006, 01:07 PM
Law and Order: SVU is one of my favorite shows on television. However I agree, last nights episode wash pushing it.

Crosshair
January 4, 2006, 01:07 PM
Yea, just watch those shows, any defence lawyer with half a brain would have a field day with these morons and the stuff they pull.

rick_reno
January 4, 2006, 01:19 PM
Watching "entertainment" that upsets you doesn't appear to be healthy behavior. It's been awhile since I've had a TV set that worked, are the newer ones manufactured without a way to turn them off? or have I missed the news that some Federal Agency has mandated that if you have a tv that works it's illegal to turn it off?

Thefabulousfink
January 4, 2006, 01:27 PM
Of course, if you could turn your TV off then you might miss some important information from the Government on what you should be afraid of today.:evil:

CentralTexas
January 4, 2006, 01:29 PM
Watching "entertainment" that upsets you doesn't appear to be healthy behavior. It's been awhile since I've had a TV set that worked, are the newer ones manufactured without a way to turn them off? or have I missed the news that some Federal Agency has mandated that if you have a tv that works it's illegal to turn it off?

I think you missed his point. It's hard to watch many TV dramas/shows that don't portray firearms in a bad light. Should they have to do without the medium of TV to avoid that? Once one learns what series are consistent in this it doesn't make sense to continue to tune in though.
Ever since the 2nd? season of 24 where they played russian roulette in prison and Keifer did the PSA about guns after the show I haven't watched an episode.
CT

boofus
January 4, 2006, 01:33 PM
Screw all the TV shows set in New York, Boston, or Los Angeles. (Just about 80% of everything on the idiot box). My TV only sees action when I turn on the playstation or pop in a DVD.

exoduster18
January 4, 2006, 01:34 PM
I feel all in all its a thoroughly entertaining TV show. I do agree with the rest of you in the fact that TV seriosly distorts everything good about our culture and uses stereotypes of us all of the time.

cuchulainn
January 4, 2006, 01:43 PM
The anti-gun story lines are deliberate. It's the work of the Entertainment Indutry Council (http://www.eiconline.org)

See espeically its suggestions on depicting guns -- http://www.eiconline.org/issues/gv/depiction.php

Battlestar Galactica is one of the best shows on the tube. But it's got it's PC elements too. For example, that's why Starbuck is a woman. But at least it doesnt' shove the PC stuff down our throats.

c_yeager
January 4, 2006, 01:48 PM
The anti-gun story lines are deliberate. It's the work of the Entertainment Indutry Council (http://www.eiconline.org)

See espeically its suggestions on depicting guns -- http://www.eiconline.org/issues/gv/depiction.php



Or maybe its just good programing. Controversy is free advertising. Seriously, look at whats happening here. This is a board dedicated to firearms, and we are discussing an episode of SVU, sounds like some producer did a good job of getting people to talk about the show.

pax
January 4, 2006, 01:50 PM
The reason "they" keep airing dreck like this is because people watch it. They get paid based on how many people watch their shows.

Want to keep dreck like this off the air? Stop watching it.

pax

GEM
January 4, 2006, 01:51 PM
Starbuck and Boomer being women add depth to the plot and they are easy to look at.

The old BSG really didn't have much sophistication to it, unless you grooved on watching Pa Cartwright in Liberace's cape.

Coronach
January 4, 2006, 02:00 PM
BSG does have some PC going on in it, but it's not terrible. Starbuck as a woman actually works because the actress is skilled and the character is well written. They have thus far avoided making too many silly sops to liberal/PC points of view, and in one episode deliberately played on that tendency in other shows to throw the viewer for a loop at the end.

Spoiler: (highlight to read)

Lucy Lawless plays a reporter doing an expose-documentary of life on the warship, and constantly plays the "you can't stifle my freedom of expression and right to question authority", a la anti-military reporters doing hatchet jobs of US military in Iraq under the aegis of freedom. It read as your standard liberal-journalist diatribe right up until the end, when she actually turns out to be an enemy agent using the access granted her to undermine the security of the fleet. It was, actually, pretty brilliant.

Plus it has some OK gunplay (along with some bad gunplay) and some pretty fun weapons as eye candy. FN P90s, FN 57s, Beretta Storms with Aimpoints, Vektors. Good stuff.

L&E is ok. They tend to be correct in their law (though not perfect), unlike most shows. However, they're way off on interview techniques, the detectives always make the same mistakes (you'd think they'd have search and seizure training for those guys, as often as they goof it up), and the "ripped from the headlines" bit gets tedious. It's also very PC. And very convoluted...just once I'd like to see an episode that does NOT involve the daughter of the ambassador from Ashcanistan getting it on with a world-famous concert pianist and getting shot over her addiction to x-rated Japanese anime. Just Tater shot Pee Wee over a $10 drug debt. The end. ;)

Mike

el44vaquero
January 4, 2006, 02:03 PM
I like watching Ted Nugent's hunting show. I believe it's called "Call of the wild."

HankB
January 4, 2006, 02:14 PM
I saw part of the episode mentioned in the first post. :barf:

The one thing I've learned from Law & Order in its various guises is that if you're ever questioned by the police as a suspect in a crime, the first thing - and I do mean the very, VERY first thing - you need to do is shut up.

Then lawyer up.

Old Dog
January 4, 2006, 02:17 PM
A dissenting opinion on these statements:
Once one learns what series are consistent in this it doesn't make sense to continue to tune in though.
Want to keep dreck like this off the air? Stop watching it. Abstaining from viewing these shows is the proverbial double-edged sword ... if you don't watch the shows, and digest the criminally bad writing (such as on last night's L&O SVU episode), you (1) remain unaware of what propaganda, thinly disguised under the veil of entertainment, the majority of the country (which does watch television) is absorbing and (2) you then remain unable to substantiate your counter-arguments against said propaganda, having not yourself viewed it ... I say this, because in watching this particular episode, I became aware that I was actually glad I stuck with it (in spite of the poor acting, poor writing and over-the-top portrayal of the "NGA" attorney) -- because I was able to formulate in my mind specific, point-by-point arguments against the premise that was the show's main thesis (gun violence is a disease) -- and you'd better believe you'll hear more of this now that the study was made mainstream in prime-time.

Disclaimer here: I don't normally watch these shows, but was flipping through channels immediately after the triple-overtime Orange Bowl game and Mariska Hargitay caught my eye ...

Here's a link to an article about the original study in New Scientist and a link to the original article in Science magazine (Science magazine is a subscription site, however).
http://www.newscientist.com/channel/being-human/teenagers/dn7436
http://www.sciencemag.org/cgi/content/short/308/5726/1323

It should be noted that in a subsequent issue of Science (9 Sep 05), Gary Kleck's outstanding rebuttal to the study was printed.

cuchulainn
January 4, 2006, 02:23 PM
Starbuck and Boomer being women add depth to the plot and they are easy to look at. Yes they do (and are).

But I suspect that they were changed to women in the first place for PC reasons. But I'm not really too concerned about it, and I'm certainly not offended. It's a great show. I'm just pointing out that it's not immune from PC-ism.

Optical Serenity
January 4, 2006, 03:18 PM
Personally, when i watch TV I do so knowing its gonna be BS. Hence why I only really watch Discovery, Discovery Times, TLC, and CourtTV. I like watching documentary type shows like The FBI Files, Investigators, and stuff that I know to be true. Story line fiction shows like SVU will always have something crazy in them.

Especially being a police officer, I can't stand watching how wrong 99% of TV fiction is about law enforcement.

Malfader13
January 4, 2006, 03:33 PM
I was going to post a reply about not watching these shows similar to what Old Dog had to say, though I couldn't have said it nearly as eloquently. So thank you Old Dog.

As I have several family members and friends that watch this show, and I admit I find it entertaining, I like to see what is going on in that wasteland at times. A few of them I know full well will swallow up this propaganda whole, and I like to be prepared for debates. I don't set aside time to watch any TV, other then BSG and to this point House (I love that guys acid sense of humor). But I will watch something that can have an effect on issues I care about, and being more conservative then liberal most of the shows out there I am going to take issue with at one point or another. I also realize these are just "entertainment" and I do like to be entertained (computer mostly), but I don't take it for granted that many people can't seem to separate entertainment from fact (just look at the regular news media).

So turn it off if you like, most likely the best argument against these shows is going to be "Well that is just a TV show and presents little to no facts," but then again when have you known a frightened, emotional anti-gunner to listen to as simple a rebuttal as that.

Fastlane
January 4, 2006, 03:41 PM
I watch PBS. They have some good programs compared to regular TV.

gc70
January 4, 2006, 03:45 PM
People still watch television!?!

gunfan
January 4, 2006, 03:54 PM
I was watching SVU last night and what a nasty episode that was. Long story short it was about a study that had been done stating that children that witnessed gun violence were at least twice as likely to commit gun violence themselves. There is an actual study on this that was released in 2005, and though I am not familiar with the details of it, I am willing to bet it can be deconstructed by someone smarter then I. That there is a study isn't what erks me though. What dose is many people will take what was on SVU as absolute fact without finding out any information. They even had a lawyer for the NGA (national gun association), wonder who they are targeting there, who was a total ass. Oh and he was a total ass to a very nice young black boy. Once again the white male who is pro-gun is stereotyped, and badgering, at the least, a minority. And some, possibly many, will believe it though it is just a TV show. My wife and I were livid after this show. Now that I have calmed down, hugged and petted my guns :D , I thought I would vent a bit.

That, my friend, is more truth than poetry! This episode was total horse$#!t! National Gun Association indeed! I watched the program myself and found the only redeeming value of the NGA attorney was that he properly represented the fact that viewing a violent act was not key to "infecting" a human with mens rea, or "guilty mind". It comes from another source.

The "poor little black child" was forced to incriminate himself during a sanctioned "harrasing" civil court session by the "NGA" attorney, therefore the case had to be dismissed. How convenient! What leftist "BS"!

Scott

Thefabulousfink
January 4, 2006, 03:59 PM
We should form an National Gun Association and then sue them for slander:evil:

BostonGeorge
January 4, 2006, 04:05 PM
I am also a big L&O fan, and I watched last night's SVU episode. I was pretty upset, especially since I stayed up late to watch it and all it did was make it harder to fall asleep afterward.

I really didn't understand the purpose of the entire civil hearing though, are prosecuters not able to enter into a plea bargin for what ever reason they see fit as long as the trial judge signs off? It appeared to me the deal was based on the the prosecuter's confidence in the jury, regardless of the specific evidence presented to them.

XLMiguel
January 4, 2006, 04:11 PM
I can hardly wait until the grabbers start citing this mythical TV study on children & gun violence as "fact" . . . :barf:

Anyone waanna start a pool on when the first 'citation' comes up or whether the Brady Bunch will pick it up/co-opt it?:evil:

Mad Chemist
January 4, 2006, 04:13 PM
Battlestar Galactica is one of the best shows on the tube. But it's got it's PC elements too. For example, that's why Starbuck is a woman. But at least it doesnt' shove the PC stuff down our throats.

Yeah, but she smokes cigars and beats people up, so who cares.:D

Old Dog
January 4, 2006, 04:16 PM
Mike in VA:
I can hardly wait until the grabbers start citing this mythical TV study on children & gun violence as "fact" . . .

It wasn't mythical. You apparently didn't read my previous post nor check the links I provided.

As a general gripe, sometimes it's irritating when someone makes a comment demonstrating they don't read a thread all the way through and thereby can miss a key element of discussion or render their own remark meaningless.

cuchulainn
January 4, 2006, 04:20 PM
Yeah, but she smokes cigars and beats people up, so who cares.Gotta love her.

dfaugh
January 4, 2006, 04:27 PM
And I would say it really came out "neutral" regarding gun control and violence...While they try to use a bogus study against guns they also tore apart the argument that seeing gun violence causes gun violence, and placed it upon personal responsibility....

I watch the various L&O shows, and don;tthink they are particularly biased, unlike other shows...

You have to take a step back,and look at someof these shows objectively....

Mad Chemist
January 4, 2006, 04:31 PM
I watch PBS. They have some good programs compared to regular TV.

Their recent multi-part series on President Reagan was very good.

I think that most of the crime anthologies help our cause rather than hinder it. Making people more aware of the indiscriminate brutality in our midst will further the understanding that self defense is a basic human right, not a priviledge.
JH

V4Vendetta
January 4, 2006, 04:35 PM
I used to watch "The Simpsons" until I saw the episode where Homer gets a gun. It was funny but they had a "guns are bad" atmosphere. I used to watch L & O with my parents but they started portraying guns with a similar attitude.

I watch Sanford & Son on DVD now. I have all 6 seasons of it. I also watch other old shows on DVD.

GEM
January 4, 2006, 05:05 PM
I would also like to mention that SVU has had some of the worst gun handling and police use of force that I have ever seen in a serious show (not like a T.J . Hooker, Miami Vice farce)

There was an episode where the gang was chasing a child molster. For some legal reason said molester gets off but mocks Elliot as being a female sex organ as he couldn't catch him.

Elliot and Olivia go to his house (perhaps without a warrant) and are snooping in his basement for evidence. They hear a commotion upstairs and go up to find the molester with a young kidnapped girl. He says them and starts to strangle her (no weapons visible) and taunts them to shoot him. He tells Elliot if he shoots him, then he (Elliot) will be female organ again and/or Elliot doesn't have the guts to shoot him anyway. Elliot is stunned into a psychological fugue and is probably thinking about that he is truly a female organ. Olivia then shoots the dude in the shoulder. She doesn't shoot him in the noggin as that would depress Elliot as he couldn't pull the trigger.

I was yelling at the screen, shoot him (using the appropriate technique for a close up hostage scene). My wife had to tell me to shut up.

Blah :barf:

CAS700850
January 4, 2006, 05:27 PM
First, the older episodes of L&O were entertaining. the problem now is that they are more about the entertainment then reality. I love how they do suppression hearings on evidence running down a hallway chasing a judge arguing about what happened, and the judge rules as the elevator door closes. No hearing. No witnesses. No briefs. Just a running debate in a hallway.

The problem is that the jury pool is made up of people who watch these shows, and expect prosecutors to be like Sam Watterson. I even joke about it in my voir dire. But it is true. Hell, I won't even wear a colored shirt to trial since a juror told me that real prosecutors, like on L&O, wear white shirts and dark suits.

That said, I will fully admit that I love the new Battlestar. I was a fan of the old one as a kid, but having watched some reruns on SciFi, I wonder why. The new one has great SFX, better stories, and the entire plot-line is simply better thought out. Add the fun twists (human/Cylons, cylons as montheistic sentient beings, not simply cold, souless machines) and it's more interesting. Though, I've got to wonder, on the episodes where a group goes planetside, why keep sinding the darn pilots to fight on terra firma, when you've got squads of Marines on board, ready and willing.

cuchulainn
January 4, 2006, 05:38 PM
I've got to wonder, on the episodes where a group goes planetside, why keep sinding the darn pilots to fight on terra firma, when you've got squads of Marines on board, ready and willing.For the same reason Kirk/Spock, Picard/Riker went planetside all the time, despite there being squads of Red Shirts willing to go -- the plot revolves around the main characters.

Why am in this red shirt? What am I doing on this planet? Hey, why's that cloud talking to us?

afasano
January 4, 2006, 05:40 PM
Law and Order (aka TNT's entire programming schedual) is a much overrated pile of steaming television garbage. The few times that I have been tempted to sit down and watch it I have either had Hollywood agenda crammed down my throat, or seen gross violations of power on the part of the characters.

If you want a good drama, watch 24 on FOX or the new Battlestar Galactica on SciFi.

The action was on ABC last night they finally made up for when they bumped us for the Thomas hearings. We are Penn State.!!!!! :D

Carl N. Brown
January 4, 2006, 06:49 PM
We need a team of real prosecutors, defense attorneys, judges
and LEO to tell the public that these TV shows are bilgewater
and more fantasy than sci-fi channel. According to what I hear
on Court TV, today jurors believe that real CSI can solve a crime in
one hour. Reality check please.

rock jock
January 4, 2006, 07:02 PM
I love L&O. They have taken on topics that are highly controversial before, including several episodes where the defendent uses the pressures of racism as a defense for their actions. I have noted that they do bend towards the liberal side when it comes to guns. Perhaps the most ridiculous is when a detective looks a perforated victime and says "looks like a 9MM." Uh, as opposed to a .38 sp or .357 mag.:rolleyes:

Regarding the kids exposed to violence study, pathetically poor science. So many other correlating factors can be attributed to the statistical increase that the data is rendered useless. This is a case where simple logic should be your guide - violent kids come from violent surroundings, irregardless of whether or not guns are the tools of that violence.

MTMilitiaman
January 4, 2006, 07:18 PM
On an unrelated note, The Gunny got it on at the machine gun shoot in Kentucky last night. Gotta love Mail Call. Long live Ermy!

VirgilCaine
January 4, 2006, 07:29 PM
... Though, I've got to wonder, on the episodes where a group goes planetside, why keep sinding the darn pilots to fight on terra firma, when you've got squads of Marines on board, ready and willing.

When did they send pilots to actually fight?

odysseus
January 4, 2006, 08:26 PM
Yep, another vote for Mail Call on THC.

IndianaDean
January 4, 2006, 09:36 PM
Where I work overnight, we have a tv. It's only got an antenna for reception. I try to ignore most of the garbage that comes out of it. My colleague however watches everything, including that L&O episode last night. All I can say is, that's just further evidence that night time television is by and large, pure trash.

I was actually watching 24 until Jack's wife fainted in the first season and came up with amnesia. I thought that was extremely corny. Haven't watched the program since.

progunner1957
January 4, 2006, 10:59 PM
That there is a study isn't what erks me though. What dose is many people will take what was on SVU as absolute fact without finding out any information.
I saw the episode last night and was irritated, but not surprised. As I told my wife, last night there were millions of The American Sheeple sitting in front of their TVs saying, "Yup, yup, that's it, guns are the cause of all violence in the world; only the police and soldiers should have them.":barf:

The ignorance and gullibility of The American Sheeple as regards gun issues is both apalling and mind boggling. "I heard it on TV, it has to be so" seems to be their worldview.

Those who would disarm us have demonstrated that they are completely and totally devoid of any shred of integrity and honesty and will stoop to telling any lie to achieve their end.

We can boycott companies who advertise on SVU and write them letters telling them so, and we should. My boycott list is starting to get really long...:D

XLMiguel
January 4, 2006, 11:27 PM
OK, Old Dog, I admit I skim some threads, I don't thoroughly read every post and embedded citation, nor vett thier sources and bibliographies. I'll further stipulate that I believe that regular exposure to violence of any sort makes it easier for those exposed to participate or perpetrate violence in the future.

However, I doubt that the TV writers do, either, and I further suspect that they 'cherry pick' snippets from the research that supports their agenda, rather than present the reseach in context with attribution, let alone cite or even refernce their sources. As noted, the show spews a lot of anti-2A/RKBA drek. Further, not having read the actual report, I don't know what the final conculsion[s] really was, and the two articles you cited are less than complete and comprehensive.

All in all, I'll stick with my half-formed opinion that we'll see this crap again, just like the "43X more likely" crap, cited as "fact" by the anti's.:neener: People either know Right from Wrong or not, it's not that hard. Those who use "pop/junk science" as an excuse for their behavior are in the "not" group. JMNSHO.

CAnnoneer
January 4, 2006, 11:46 PM
There are plenty of good documentaries and Gunny Ermey on the History channel, Stargate and Galactica on Sci-Fi, spaghetti westerns on AMC, eyeopening evidence on C-SPAN, and documentaries on Travel and Discovery channels. The rest is slop of different varieties.

kbheiner7
January 4, 2006, 11:48 PM
Judas, people - it's a TV show and not one anyone on this board watches for educational purposes.

BSG chicks vs. http://gb.chinabroadcast.cn/mmsource/images/2005/04/29/pb050429035.jpg

I don't think so. :neener:

jimpeel
January 5, 2006, 12:54 AM
Okay. Perhaps we need some of the dialogue from last night's slamfest of the "NGA".

The defense attorney cites the "study" which states that firearms violence needs to be treated as an infectious disease. She then cites the numbers which were "twice as likely to commit gun violence; and in some cases three times as likely" once someone witnesses firearms violence. So which is it? Twice or thrice?

She then states that once a person witnesses firearms violence that they become "infected". She states that it is like being infected with a cold and no one can prevent that infection.

In her final slam -- the detective, prosecutor, and defense counsel were all women in this episode :rolleyes: -- during this diatribe in her opening remarks, she closes by stating "Violence is the disease and guns are the virus".

Nope -- I did not make that last part up.

jimpeel
January 5, 2006, 01:09 AM
I got the episode name and number. It is entitled "Infected" -- what else -- and is episode 12 of season 7. I am downloading an .avi file of it right now, will edit it for the pertinent parts and post it where everyone can see it. No guarantee it will work as my webdrive only has 50M of space and about half of that is used.

jimpeel
January 5, 2006, 10:14 AM
Here is the link to my secure server. The file size is a bit over 13M. The share is only good for 15 days and 20 downloads.

The audio is skewed so her mouth won't match the words; but there's nothing new about that in the anti-firearms agendist's world.

Secure Link: https://www2.ibackup.com/qmanager/servlet/share?key=ormye65302

K-Romulus
January 5, 2006, 11:47 AM
The defense was arguing this virus-disease nonsense? Wouldn't that make the prosecution the party opposing the nonsense?:confused:

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