[Alan Fud]

This topic was prompted by the following comments ... Posted by Maddogkiller: (http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17306#post215567) ... If you aren't putting at least 100 rds a week end thru one of those pistols. I mean training with them. Not target shooting. I mean TRAINING with one of them on a regular and extensive basis, then it doesn't matter which one you carry because you aren't going to get it out and on target in time anyway. ...

SOURCE: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17306#post215567 ... Do you train with your CCW or just go target shooting?
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Alligator Al: Share What You Know & Learn What You Don't.

[WebHobbit]

I have to admit I mostly shoot at the range. I do however use silhouette style targets and practice at 30 foot distances.

Does that count? :D

I seriously do not care what I can do at any longer distances. Up close and personal is all I'm concerned with.

[Ala Dan]

Greeting's old bud, FUD-

I shoot my CCW piece (SIG Sauer P220 .45ACP) at least
one session a month; with approximately 200 rounds fired.

Best Wishes,
Ala Dan, N.R.A. Life Member

[Chris Rhines]

Okay, first of all, there is no set number of rounds that one must shoot in order to become proficent at defensive pistolcraft. Clint Smith, who I think has some creds on the subject, states that 100 rounds a month will allow a shooter to maintain a reaosnable level of skill with a pistol. Louis Awerbuck, when he was recovering from encephalitis, made a point of only bringing 25 rounds to the range at a time (it would force him to concentrate and make every presentation and every shot perfect.)

Much more important than live-fire excercise, IMO, is dry-fire. One should constantly practice trigger control, administrative handling of the weapon, malfunction clearances, and rapid presentation from a variety of poistions (everybody here practices drawing while lying on their back, right? ;)) Dry fire is great stuff, at least as fundamnetal as live practice, and you don't even have to go to the range to do it. Just make sure you have a safe backstop.

Second - don't discount target shooting. I see far too many shooters at the range who are pretty fast, sure, but if they ever got into a fight on the street most of their bullets would end up somewhere other than the target. Like in the day-care center down the block. In order to win a gunfight, you have to be both fast and accurate. Either alone won't cut it.

I train at the range once a month (usually, I try to do it more often) with 1-200 rounds. I dryfire every day for 15-30 minutes. I shoot bullseyes when I get the opportunity, pro'ly once a week or so (an air pistol is very handy for this.)

- Chris

[Preacherman]

I have a problem getting regular range time, due to my job, but on an annual basis, I guess I fire 5,000 rounds or so through my carry weapons. This averages out to a bit over 400 rounds per month, or a bit less than 100 rounds per week.

[Smoke]

I train with it and target shoot with it. I beleive the more comfortable with it you are the better you will react under stress.

I'm also a firm beleiver that you shouldn't carry many different kinds of guns. Meaning sitck with guns that have the same grip angle, sight picture, trigger, and controls. That doesn't mean you should go sell the revovlers if your a CCW is a semi auto,; it just means you shouldn't carry the revolver if your primary weapon is a semi.

All my guns that I would ever consider for defense are very similar:

Para Ordnance P14.45
Springfield Champion
Kimber Ultra Carry
Colt Gov't 380

All have Novak or similar sights. All are 1911 style guns with similar triggers and safeties. Under stress I don't want to have to stop and think about how the controls on my gun work. I have demonstrated how a guy familier with a 1911 style weapon when given a Glock and put a little pressure on him will "thumb the safety" and shoot too high.

I know other LEO's and instructors that won't touch another weapon other than what they carry. I think that is a bit extreme but respect their stance.

As far as round count. So long as your putting rounds down range at least a couple of times a month and seeking professional instruction once a year, I think you can maintain your effectiveness. Specific round counts not necessary as long as you practice right!

Smoke

[mec]

I agree with Smoke. I do both but prefer target shooting. My background was early '60's when handgun hunting for small game was both popular and available. got used to considering minute-of-rabbit to be the good standard.

Now my shooting is mixed up among minute of rabbit, precise single and double action shooting and from the leather at the usual "combat" ranges. I have never shot anybody with my carry gun but, on those occasions that I have levered it out of the holster in preparation to do so, I have been entirely confident that I could hit my target if it didn't leave.

I have my own "training" routine which taps into various schools of thought on the subject. It might be good to read Jim Wilson on the subject as he makes good sense and doesn't present himself as an overly opinionated blow-fish.

[dev_null]

I'd love to train, but don't really have the opportunity. So I put the fear into pieces of paper in order to improve my aim, to the tune of about 200 rds/month per carry gun.

[Dave T]

My routine is to work on my "basic firing stroke" at least once a week (at an indoor range). I have a routine I go through shooting 150 rounds at 3, 5, 7, 10, 15 and 25 yards. Target is the IPSC silhouette and I strive for "A" zone hits as quickly as I can. About half the shots are from the holster, the rest from the ready position. I usually fire pairs (doubles) but alternate with occasional three round sequences.

At least once a month I try to get to the outdoor range and work on multiple targets. I usually do some variation of "El Presidente". At those sessions I usually fire around 200 rounds.

The above is always with my carry gun, from concealment. When I go shoot for fun (SA and DA revolvers) I just plink at steel plates or similar fun targets.

[sm]

Most of mine has been training on a personal level with CCW's.
100-300 rds per wk.

Private range where I trained, and helped others is closed. So in process of making arrangements. Some ranges don't allow 'drills",therefore, some of us will find a private place and continue.

[Onslaught]

My local range does not allow "drawing" from a holster at all. The best you can do is "low ready". So at the range, I just target shoot... and not that often. (100 rounds every 1 - 2 months)

But I do practice dry-firing much more frequently, and drawing from a concealed position as well.

I know you didn't say "it" FUD, and you were only quoting, so remember that as I lay out my $.02 on the original quote...

Although I do believe that practice does make one better, I also firmly believe that the statement it doesn't matter which one you carry because you aren't going to get it out and on target in time anyway. ... is waay overexaggerated, and even a little condescending.

"in time" for what? In time to beat a THR member in a showdown shootout at high noon? To take out "Clint Smith" as he's coming at you, reaching for his gun? To shoot an armed felon who's gun is already drawn?

There are just too many variables to be able to state flatly that "if you don't practice drawing your pistol at least XXX per month, you will die".

If the assailant is coming at you with a lead pipe, then as long as you don't forget your thumbbreak, you're probably going to be OK, especially if you're moving backward at the same time. If it's a knife, then a little more dangerous... If the guy has a gun, but it's in his pocket, do you suppose he's trained at all? Who's gonna get to theirs first? That's more of a toss-up, and yes, training does help in that situation... What if his pistol is already out? Doesn't matter how much you train there... odds are, unless his attention is firmly affixed elsewhere, you're very likely to get shot reaching...

I think it's overly and unfairly intimidating, especially to newer shooters, to make statements like that.

Shoot when you can, practice when you can, LEARN your pistol... how it works, how to clear it, etc... but if you can't spend 2 hours per week every week at the range, that doesn't mean you should lock your pistol up and quit carrying.

[cratz2]

I went through a period of very agressive training with a Marine friend of mine. We'd put somewhere between 150 and 400 rounds a day, two or three days a week through our guns (Beretta style, my Taurus PT99) drawing from concealment, either engaging one target twice or two targets once each, double taps, at 7 and 15 yards. We'd usually start off with informal 25 and 50 yard shooting. He was always good, I'd say I got pretty good except... I never carried that Taurus. This was all one summer and part of the prededing spring and the fall. Towards the end I started using my 1991A1 and got pretty proficient with it, but, as much as I love the 19119 platform, never shot it as well as I did the full size 9mm.

Now days, I try to put 50 rounds through a week plus whatever rimfire I shoot. Usually do one mag at 7 yards, one mag at 15 yards, one mag slow at 25 yards and then various double taps, one round into each of two targets at 15 yards about three times.

I just got a new gun as my primary CCW and I'm going to take a course using it. It's a Kahr P9 Covert. This will be the first non 5" 1911 or Commander that I've used as a planned primary other than carrying a G23 for a couple weeks. And while I feel well-armed with it, let me tell ya, the P9 is worlds difference than a full size 45 1911 or a 38 Super Commander. ;)

[Soap]

As Chris stated, volume isn't as important as quality. Because of the whole full time student + 30 hour/week job thing I really don't have the time to get to the range as often as I would like. So dry practice constitutes a large part of my training nowadays. In general, I spend about a half hour per day doing dry exercises. Also, I supplement this with reading books or watching videos that I pilfer from El Tejon's library. My newest method of training is Airsoft. After doing it once, I'm impressed by its training capabilities. Once the semester is finished and I have my 2 jobs, I'll probably be able to find time to go to the range every 2 weeks.

[Blackhawk]

Both, but the targets are usually with SD in mind.

[QuarterBoreGunner]

50 rounds a month; but the only training I do is draw from concealment and fire at 7 – 1- yards. I’d love to do more training than that but just don’t have the facilities here in the inglorious SF Bay Area.

Though I’m this close (fingers about a ¼” apart) to taking skunabilly’s tactical pledge.

[Poohgyrr]

Hmmmmmmm,

Dry fire worked wonders for me back when I first began serious training. It still works wonders. Live fire is also very important, but not always available.

I take advantage of IDPA matches & similiar shoots whenever I can, I want twice a month and don't always get it. I understand almost every "regular" range I've been to does not allow any holster or "fast" shooting. Some ranges even restrict the type of target you can use.

Working on & maintaining a proper "attitude" is also one of the most important things I can think of.

[m.i.sanders]

I only get to do target shooting at the moment, and that's only about twice a month now. I DO at least put about 100 rounds through each carry gun. One of these day's I'll get more time to shoot and I'm planning on joining the local IDPA club for more practice.

[shootingfarm]

At least 50 rounds of training a week with my carry gun(1911) at 7,10 and 15 yards and at least 15 minutes a day of dry fire with a timer.

I also shoot 100+ a week with my Ruger 45/22, its not the same but you can never shoot to much.




Paul

[telewinz]

This will be unpopular but here goes. It seems we have alot of "old West" mentality when it comes to CCW. Whether you fire 50 rounds a month or 500 rounds how does that in reality prepare you for the very remote event in which you may have to use your weapon? I used an unfamilar pistol on a state of the art simulator for the first time last summer and did a little over average (20/27 hits) compared to LEO's who have trained intensively for YEARS, 14-15 hits out of 27 were very common. How do you simulate the stress of someone firing back at you? You can't, you are just playing cowboy and indians. Know your weapon, yes, hit a target rapid fire yes, know the law, yes but don't assume you are Wyatt Earp walking down the street in Tombstone. Its kind of like everything else, alot of it you are born with and for most of us including me, we ain't. Its just a grown-up game/execise for the over 21 crowd. No offense intended.

[shootingfarm]

I don't think of myself as "Wyatt Earp" and I don't have an " old West mentality".

I DO worry about protecting my family and not making a bad situation worse because I missed my target.

I agree that most of us will never draw our gun for protection and it's hard simulate stress, but what would you have us do.



Paul

[Soap]

Bring as many tools as you can to a fight. If you want to bring a gut, .22 NAA Mini, and a GSC attitude, go for it. If you want to be Captain Tactical with an HK SOCOM, SEEL manual, and a bunch of high speed low drag clothing, go for it. But don't dog people who train. Call me crazy, but I think that Clint Smith, Pat Rogers, et al could probably hand me a big butt kicking in a gunfight...or Robin Brown or James Keating in a knife fight...and the list goes on.

[Standing Wolf]

This old bullseye shooter has a hard time shooting combat style. Holding a gun in both hands feels awkward and puts the sights too close to my eyes for clarity—but I'm persisting. I'm less accurate with both hands than one, but accurate enough for criminals at close range, I'm sure.

[Stevie-Ray]

Range frowns on drawing. Shoot 100-150 rounds every 2 weeks.

[Logistar]

Don't laugh! But I feel my "training" with my BB pistol has been invaluable. I have a cheap BB pistol (CO2) that looks and feels just like my Beretta 92 (except that it is a bit lighter).

I set up targets out in the field. Then I walk through them and randomly (as well as instantly) declare one (or two) of them a threat. I practice drawing and firing the BB gun as rapidly as possible. - mainly double-taps. (I started out slow of course.)

This taught me a LOT about what can go wrong. I believe that I get a more sure grip now. I also learned that when "pushing" myself I would occasionally "miss" the safety. :what: What REALLY surprised me was that if I missed the safety (or didn't get it pushed completely off) that this delayed my shot for maybe an entire second as well as caused me to move the gun AWAY from the target as I attempted to re-swipe it. :banghead:

1. I feel I am much faster now after training this way.
2. I feel like I am more accurate.
3. I feel that I am more confident.
4. I feel I know how fast TO DRAW so that I can attain a good compromise between attaining a good grip and quickly presenting the weapon.
5. I learned that I was NOT as good at reliably getting the safety off as I had thought. (It ALWAYS worked at the range!) - I decided to carry with the safety off now - something that TFL/THR members had been saying all along. ;)

FWIW

Logistar

[happy old sailor]

Logistar: no laughing matter, none at all. shows you are taking your gun handling very seriously. glad we are on the same side.

[C. H. Luke]

Train with CCW?

Yes, but it's never based on rounds per week, session or?
One thing I learned for Chuck Taylor's Courses is that it's all
"from the holster" and @ true Gunfight distances meaning very Close..........

[Ewok_Guy]

I would never even consider target shooting with a CCW.

[braindead0]

Depending on weather, between 200 and 1000 rounds per month.. and that's not including the wifes 200-1000 rounds... I think it's time for a fully-automated reloading press ;-)

[Trisha]

400-800 rounds of .45acp every month with CCW firearms in tactical defensive drills, as weather and health allow.

50-100 rounds of 12ga, with about half 00buck, half 1oz slug, including transition drills.

Recreational/target shooting comes afterwards.

[Jesse H]

Can't draw at my range either...I really really need to look into local IDPA stuff.

I practice drawing, then dry firing in front of the mirror. Last time I did it so much I wore a blister in my finger.

At the range I shoot steel from low and ready at 15 yards.

[Texas Bob]

:) Me and my friends must be lucky reading the posts. We use an indoor range that is divided in half by a cement block wall. "Every" monday night at 6:30pm; two idpa "type" drills from concealment are set up for anyone to shoot with their ccw. This means I only shoot 20-24rds a week, but I've been doing this 48 out of 52 weeks a year for the last six years. Really lets you work on your draw wearing different kinds of clothing. I know it's only a game, but it's the "best" game for me.:)

[C. H. Luke]

"...I've been doing this 48 out of 52 weeks a year for the last six years."

Man, THAT'S dedication!

[Texas Bob]

:) I don't really think of it as "dedication", rather that's "MY" time with the guys(tues is ladies night, no range fee). My wife has her"Tues night with the girls," where they go to a movie, dinner, or whatever. Just how I relieve stress and relax with my P7M8, try it you'll like it, cheaper than therepy.:)

[JPM70535]

Training is relative to your own comfort level. If you shoot 50 rounds a week, all at 7 yards and have 100 percent x ring hits, and can clear your CCW from its carry position and get it on target in a reasonable length of time, your odds of surviving an armed encounter are probably as good as they are likely to get.

Stress is the one factor that no one can really train for. IPSC and IDPA are great simulations and provide a reasonable facimile of a hostile environment, but the stress level just isn't going to be the same. When the SHTF and you are under fire, all the training in the world isn't going to replace the fight or flight mentality inherent in us all. Thats why LEOS fire 15-30 rounds at a BG and fail to score a hit, and yet can shoot a perfect score every time at the range.

Practice? Yes, of course, just don't think practice will guarantee your survival. Luck will play a big part.

[mini14jac]

Once a week during spring/summer/fall, not as much when it's cold outside.

Usually 50rds from my PM9, 3 or 4 mags through my P32.

Kneeling, moving forward, moving backward....
From behind a barricade....
Draw and fire, pick up from table and fire.......

I try to mix it up.

[Crimper-D]

Of my CCW guns, the .22LR Mousegun gets the most use because of the cheap, no-fuss ammo. The .380, the .40S&W and the .45ACP require setup and components of my Dillon progressive press.
With the centerfire calibers, a day at the range equates with a day at the reloading bench first. I reload a lot, but not as often as the .22 mousegun and the target pistols.
My local ranges forbid drawing from a holster on the line, so 'training' is confined to aimed fire.

"You are only outgunned if you miss!" (From Jeff Cooper's Commentaries):D

[bowhnter]

I shoot competition with my CCW. Kimber .45. 200-300 rounds per week.

[P95Carry]

Don't shoot compo's so much now but .. am more often than not ..... on my own at range. Once I have done my sighting/accuracy shooting . it is then always a case of practice for CCW .... current gun and any other.

Number of rounds is very variable ..... in essence ... as long as my draw and ''fluidity'' meets my criteria ... that day .... I am happy with it. If I hang up on the draw or have grip probs . I keep going until it improves.

Often 50 rounds for one gun is enough ..... at times much more. Dry fire practice at home fills the gap too.