[Alan Fud]

A lot of people (including a number of gun magazines) say that the .32H&R Magnum is comparable to the .38special but without the excessive kick which might be found in a light weight snubbie. I have even seen it stated that six rounds of .32H&R Mag beats five rounds of .38special!
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?s=&postid=215688
Yet, Taylor's Knockdown Scale (http://www.familyfriendsfirearms.com/tkds.htm) rates six rounds of Hornady .32H&R Magnum (85grn with a velocity of 1040fps and muzzle energy of 204 ft-lbs) only 24.24 compared with 30.9 for five rounds of Remington .38special (125grn with a velocity of 975fps and muzzle energy of 264 ft-lbs). And even Marshall & Sanow rate the .38special with a Fuller Index of 71-82 while the .32H&R Magnum has a Fuller Index of only 58-59. (SOURCE: 2002 Edition of "Handgun Stopping Power Street Results" by Evan Marshall & Edwin Sanow)

So what's your opinion? Is the .32H&R Magnum comparable to the .38special?
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Alligator Al: Share What You Know & Learn What You Don't.

[Dave Williams]

But not with the 125 gr, I'll take the heavy LHP load.
Dave

[Jim March]

Taylor's scale was designed for African big game rifles :rolleyes:.

M&S are calculating based on ALL rounds fired by that *caliber*, which in this case produces useless stats as most of the 32Maggie fodder, most notoriously the 85grain Federal, is badly designed, underpowered crap.

The Georgia Arms load involves a good 100grainer pulling the same speed or MORE as the Federal. And more speed than most 38Spl/38+P loads from the same barrel length.

Speed gives you expansion, within broad limits.

The caliber can also fire 32ACP, 32S&W and 32S&WLong. There are European nations which ban the 38Spl for civvie use but allow the 32Mag, ensuring a steady trickle of overseas sales.

Cor-Bon was probably onto something with their now-defunct 32Mag combat load project. They used the Speer Gold Dot 60grain projectile made for the 32ACP and drove it at *wild* speeds, up past 1,400 and probably closer to 1,500 in a 4.5" Ruger barrel, well over 1,200 from a snubbie. That critter could be duplicated by any handloader and should *rock* - Speer bonds the lead to the jacket to such a degree that you can drive 'em at nutso velocity and they'll hang together better than most.

Anyways. Point is, even the Georgia Arms 100grainers should be going fast enough from a 2" (over 900fps) for reliable expansion, which is more than you can say for 75% or more of the 38/38+P loads available. There's only FIVE 38spl loads I'd carry in my 2" barrel 38 snubbie.

Are five of those good 38+P loads worth more than six of the Georgia Arms 100s? I don't know, to be honest.

-----------------

Sidenote: just as a general thing, too many people are NOT paying attention to what works in their gun, and are paying for it on the street. Classic example:

http://calguns.net/6/ubb.x?a=tpc&s=888602736&f=751609466&m=5636083181

Here we have a near-total expansion failure of all FOUR rounds of a caliber and individual bullet (45ACP 230grain Hydrashock) that M&S says is the cat's meow. Gee, what went wrong? Federal provides *barely* enough powder charge to get that sucker expanding out of a 5" tube. Shoot it from a 3.75", and you might as well pack hardball. Or you can exceed it's stopping power with a WELL CHOSEN 38+P out of a dang snubbie!

Does this make sense yet? "Oh, that round failed, so the caliber must be crap, boohoo!". HORSECRAP! That's exactly what the FBI did with the 9mm Silvertip after Miami86 - it was utter idiocy then, it's equally stupid now.

You don't HAVE to be as dumb as the friggin' FEDS, guys!

You have to look at what's really going on, use good speed data, read reviews, pick GOOD stuff. In ANY caliber. The very best 22Mag are significantly better than the average 32ACP. The very best 38+Ps probably beat a few 357s for God's sake. The best 9mms leave mediocre 45ACP for *dead*.

This stuff MATTERS, people! Until you hit around 2,200 - 2,400fps or so and real hydrostatic shock effects kick in, that is...

[VictorLouis]

up to and including the .380.:o Then, to top it off, you get sixgun reliability.:D Still would defer to the .38s, though, for better oomph.

[Tamara]

I'm still baffled that people would take a scale designed to offer a rough comparison of big-game cartridges for shooting pachyderms in the noggin with solid bullets, and try and apply it to a comparison pocket pistol self defense rounds.

[Nightcrawler]

Neither Marshal & Sanow's data nor the Taylor Knock-Out Scale are based on ANY scientific formula or procedure.

I'll make it clearer. It's BUNK. PSUEDO-SCIENCE. URBAN LEGEND. Whatever you want to call it.

The only scientific measure of cartridge power is kinetic energy, and even that can't predict how the person will react when hit with the bullet. It depends on the person, where the bullet goes in, where it comes out, the circumstance, the angle, and about a million other variables. Plus, there are six billion people in this world and each one is different.

Don't base your selections on ANYTHING that M&S write, or the TKO forumla.

Anyway. Does the .32 H&R have enough punch to penetrate a human frontal skull plate RELIABLY? Can it penetrate through several layers of clothing and still go deep enough into the torso to hit something vital? If the answer is yes, then you're probably good to go, just make your shots count. The smaller the bullet, the less leeway you get.

[RON in PA]

Nightcrawler hit right on the head with his last paragraph. You have to get deep into the body and muc-up the innards, cause a lot of bleeding or if your real lucky hit the CNS. One big advantage of the classic 158 gr LSWCHP +P 38 special load is its deep penetration.

[firestar]

I don't know about all the "scales" and such but I would take a 5 shot .38 over a 6 shot .32 mag for several reasons:
1. If I am packing a snubbie, number of shots is clearly not the most important thing on my mind. Snubbies are great for packing the most punch for size and weight, I would want the power of the .38.

2. .38s are much cheaper and easier to find and they come in more variations. Also I reload .38s:D

That being said, 6 shots is a bonus vs. 5 shots. It becomes less of a difference when you are talking about 15 vs. 16 shots but 6 is better than 5. I would still take the .38

[RustyHammer]

Location, location, location. :scrutiny:

[BigG]

AMS = Another Meaningless Statistic

The larger sized, heavier chunk of lead is going to win in this contest, imho.

[braindead0]

These comparisons are really pretty arbitrary, might as well compare a .22 short to a .50AE.. It's about as meaningfull ..as far as I'm concerned...

[Dr.Rob]

All this thread is doing is making me wish I had bought that Ruger Bearcat for $139 when I had the chance.

[Tamara]

I would want the power of the .38.

Now there is an oxymoron for you... ;) :neener:

[WonderNine]

Sorry guys, but I'll take a five shot .357 snubby loaded with Golden Sabers over a six shot .32 H&R snubby ANY day of the week!!!!!

[cslinger]

I'm no physicist, nor am I a ballistics expert, heck I'm not even the sharpest knife in the drawer but.......

5 rounds of .357 Magnum give me the warm fuzzies. 6 rounds of .32 Magnum makes me think to myself..."What if I make him angrier when I shoot him?"

[ChristopherG]

Now you guys are just cheating. Throwing .357 in the mix makes it bonehead obvious; it's less so with the .38, though I still would (and do) take the .38.

I just can't see that kinetic energy--which is the kind of calculation you have to do to make the .32 come out close to the .38--is important as momentum (a more reliable predictor of penetration) in handguns. And if you do the momentum calculation--straight mass x velocity, rather than v-squared--the .38 is way out front, yes?

158 gr. x 800 fps (conservatively) = 126400 (x5 = 632000)
vs.
85 gr. x 1040 fps (if you can actually get that from a snub) = 88400 (x6 = 530400)

Not that such numbers actually matter; but if there are numbers that count (apart from my lousy IDPA scores), these are the ones I'd count on.
CG

[cslinger]

Even if we are talking about .38 I would still feel better armed with a good .38+P LSWCHP.

I'm a bigger bullet, bigger hole kind of guy. Yes, small and fast has some merit but a big ole' .45 just does my heart good.

I really think small and fast works well to a certain extent but .32 is awful small.

In reality it would probably be just fine since I would assume the psychological impact of getting shot for most people is pretty traumatic and may very well play a big deciding factor in causing them to stop and or retreat.

I still want the bigger bullet though.:D

[Tamara]

85 gr. x 1040 fps (if you can actually get that from a snub) = 88400 (x6 = 530400)

Georgia arms claims 100gr @ 1100fps with theirs. Even if that's a 4" test barrel, it should still be ~1000fps-ish from a snub.

Anybody chrono some yet?

[Johnny Guest]

- - -on the premise of "Times Five," or "Times Six."

Do six hits with a .32154 Super Whiz Bang Whomper Mag from a two-inch barrel add up to more or less kinetic energy than FIVE regular ole .38 Spl 158 LSWCHP+P bullets? This question only has some relationship to reality if we stipulate that all these ergs are to be dumped into the mortal corpus of some half-anesthetized golem with 60 grams of recreational pharmacology sloshing around behind his beetle brows, headed your way at full charge with blood in his glazed-over eyes and malice in his sluggishly pounding heart.

Such being the case, I'll wager substantial coin of the realm that ANY of us would be hard put to tag the central nervous system with ONE round, far less five or six. If I am the object of said thug's attention, it is in the best interests of my family, friends, heirs and assigns, that I utilize the biggest, baddest, hardest hitting slug I can use. I want it to go deep and do damage, and if fortunate enough to strike bone, I prefer there to be enough remaining smack to break or at least shock it. In MY mind, I must deal with the possible/probable effect of ONE decent hit. It may be all I have time for, or other factors may prevent me putting an entire cylinderful into my assailant. If my Higher Power is smiling upon me, there may be more hits, but I have to figure worst case scenario.

Now, this discussion centers upon a comparison of realistic loads for the .32 H&R and the .38 Special. It is not truly contributory to toss in figures concerning .357 magnum loads, nor those for the .454 Casull, the .50 Express, nor the 23mm chain gun. No point in touching upon what's in the .45 Commander nestled on my hip as I type. But, later in the evening, I'll probably take off the holster and drop a Colt Agent in my pocket, bringing the personal connection back to my writings . . . .

Figure the .32 as 100 gr. The old pi are square formula, 3.14 X (.312/2 times .312/2,) equals .076415. With the .38 Spl 158 gr., it is 3.14 X (.357/2 X .357/2,) yielding .100047. So the .38 has about 24% more frontal area with 58% more bullet weight. If you use the 85 gr .32 bullet, the .38 has nearly TWICE the weight. Nope, this doesn't take into account speed, but neither one reaches level of hydrostatic shock. Velocity figures into this only for the purpose of bullet expansion. How much expansion will w get from the .32 from a two-inch? Perhaps, up to .36 or .40? And what does this do to the penetration of the light bullet? the more it expands, the shallower it stops. This is pocket pistols, remember, NOT deer rifles.

For my money, I prefer the concept of a heavier bullet with more frontal area going deep. Any expansion is a bonus. Any additional hits are a further bonus. It being MY stake to play, I'll bet MY life on a snub with a good .38 load before the .32.

I fully realize that my flawless logic and devestating debate technique will not sway anyone who is well-invested in the .32 mag camp, any more that his/hers will sway me. :D

Tams - - - " . . .the power of the .38" is indeed an oxymoron, except as related to that of any .32 under the level of .32/20. ;) ( Hey, Gal, YOU invited ME into this discussion, huh?)

I love the idea of the little .32 as a trial gun, or as a small game getter. If it came to personal defense while afield, I'd a lot rather have it than NO firearm, for sure, and far more than a .22 or a .25. :p
Late edit: I meant to write, "TRAIL gun," of course. I carry the same ol' .45 to court, when so assigned . . . .

One man's ideas on the topic - - - -
Johnny

[MoNsTeR]

125grn with a velocity of 975fps
At any rate, this seems a bit optimistic.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=15853
Federal 129gr +P gave about 850fps out of Mr. Camp's 2.5" M19, I imagine the velocity from a 1.875" or 2" J-frame would be a bit less yet.

A quick survey of the major brands' defensive offerings shows lots of loads in the 125gr range, a few 110gr's, and but one 158gr. This doesn't make any sense to me, as 158gr loads give only slightly less velocity with significantly more mass. What gives?

[ChristopherG]

I think Monster's hit on a significant lag in the ammo industry. The only serious load in 158 gr., the weight around which the caliber was desined, is the LSWCHP, because that's the only thing that anyone has any confidence will expand at the velocities attainable with a full-weight bullet in .38. So--to answer the 'what gives' question directly--the lighter bullets are an attempt to address the problem of inadequate velocity for hollow-point expansion. Testing I've seen, however, doesn't inspire any real confidence that even the LSWCHP is going to expand reliably. Surely bullet technology has advanced beyond this ancient and awkward looking hunk of swage. If Federal put their EMFJ in a 158 gr (or so) bullet with a .38 +p loading, I'd buy it in a second; those things expand--not spectacularly, but dependably.

But I digress.

Johnny's remarks are the real deal; with a handgun, it's not about counting numbers or hydrostatic hypotheses; it's about punching deep, messy holes.

CG

[Nick96]

Stated in much more definitive detail previously. But the short answer to to the question of "is .32 Mag as good as .38 Spl" - the answer is NO.

Perhaps a better question would be - is .32 Mag better than .380 ACP? Probably a better comparison - and there the answer is probably YES. So given the choice between the .380 or .32 Mag - my nod would likely go to the .32 Mag (as much for the available ultra-light & utterly reliable launching vehicles as opposed to the actual caliber).

[Sam]

All energy formulas are bunk! our arm would have been torn off years ago by the recoil. All of the statisticals are bunk too.
No two creeps ever get shot quite the same.
Big hole in and a big hole out lets em leak out faster. That's all I know for sure.

And I am real sure about that!

Sam

[BigG]

...the power of the 38 :p

The power of the 32 Mag. :neener:

[Tamara]

Has anybody figured out the sectional density of a 100gr .32 Mag bullet vis a vis a 158gr .38 projo? I suck at math...

[Keith]

Killing Power is based entirely on the amount of Centrifugal Energy imparted to the bullet by rifling in the barrel. The faster the bullet spins, the more tissue will be displaced and the easier it is for the bullet to expand.
This can be reduced to the simple mathematical formula: R (rotational velocity) times RvBv (rotational velocity plus bullet velocity) equals KP (killing power).
All of this was worked out by Dr. Poindexter Wong of Wong-Way Barrel Sales who is now offering his new after market barrels with the patented hyper-rifling (Quik-Kill) barrel system for a variety of common handguns. I just bought five of them and the enclosed literature assures me that I can kill as much as 71% quicker with any of my handguns!

Ok... I just made all of that up...

C'mon guys! It's all about internal damage. A relatively small, but very fast bullet (like a 125 gr .357), can do a lot of damage. So can a relatively large, but slow bullet from .45. Carry the gun you shoot best in any credible caliber and quit looking for some magic formula.

[Jim K]

So, let me see. If I am carrying a .32, and I encounter a nasty guy being very nasty and I put one bullet in his left eye and one in his right, and one between them, he won't be hurt at all because someone did a scientific survey that says so. I think I get it, now.

Jim

[Preacherman]

The penetration factor is pretty important in any defensive round. It's not as extreme as the Facklerites would have one believe, but neither is expansion as supremely important as Marshall & Sanow would have us believe. The truth lies somewhere in the middle.

First and most important, we have to get hits in the right place, which means center-of-mass, affecting vital organs, or central nervous system (CNS) - brain stem or spine.

Secondly, we have to do damage to what we hit. This means something that will at least leave a hole, break bone, etc. A light, fast bullet may expand so much in the first few inches that it will stop before getting deep enough to do this. A classic example: if a BG has his arm across his chest for some reason, will your carry load shoot through that arm (including the arm bone), penetrate the chest, and go through the heart? If not, you need a heavier, less expansive bullet.

Thirdly, one-shot stops are NOT the norm for handguns: there's just too little power available. A relatively low-powered rifle (e.g. the good old .30-30) will have three to four times more energy on impact than a .45 ACP! With so little impact energy to play with, we're probably going to need more than one shot anyway, unless we get lucky and shut down the CNS with one hit.

I wouldn't carry a .32 (ACP or Magnum) simply because I'm not convinced that it can do an adequate job on penetration through heavy bone and obstacles. I use the .38 Special +P LSWCHP load, which has been getting the job done for decades, given good bullet placement. On the other hand, I do prefer something more powerful, and will normally be carrying a Glock 23 with Remington Golden Saber 165gr. JHP's... the .38 is for backup!

[chaim]

I've followed this thread a bit and it is actually a bit humorous. "Which is better" based solely on power?

Ok, depending upon which theory of power you go w/ the .32mag is better because it has the same FPE as the typical standard .38spl (but not +P) plus an extra round, if you just go for FPE they are about equal (again if +P isn't in the equation), for others the .38 is better for all kinds of reasons based on the theory for judging handgun power they prefer. Then some other people throw .357mag into the mix because that is what they prefer because it is even more powerful and both the .32mag and .38spl are underpowered (especially in a snub).

Well, it is enough to make your head spin, and frankly I think many people are missing some of the best arguements available that can point to the .32mag.

First, we all seem to agree that the snub is a very viable handgun design, at least within its limitations. It can carry a pretty powerful round in a pretty small package. It can be easily concealed, even put in a pocket (though it is one of the largest packages that can be carried that way). It is simple and reliable.

It is also hard for most people to be accurate with it without a lot of practice and it can be very hard to control for quick follow up shots.

I used to own a Taurus 605. It was a great gun but I sold it anyway. Why, because it was far too small and light for realistic defensive use or anything near pleasant range use of .357mag and it was heavy enough that I didn't want to be limited to .38spl out of it (the 85 is several oz. lighter). Heck, even shooting .38+P it was at the limit of what I'd consider realistic defensive ammo and I wouldn't want to shoot more than a box or two at a time.

You add to that the fact that today many, if not most, people want to go with the lighter materials- aluminum at minimum.

In an under 15-17oz gun even with regular strength .38s it would take a while to return your sights on target. Also, in a gun you need to practice with a lot to get good it wouldn't be very pleasant to spend much time at the range with it.

Here is where the real arguement for the .32mag comes in. It is in the same league as the .38spl (whether it is better or just as powerful or whatever doesn't matter, it is in the same general arena anyway) and it is generally considered to have a mild recoil. This allows for quick follow up shots and more pleasant practice (which in turn could lead to more practice). As a pleasant added benefit the guns so chambered have 6 instead of 5 rounds.

The disadvantages? Cost, availability (in many areas) and for those who don't trust small bores it is a decidedly smaller bullet.

My choice? When the new Taurus 9mm snubs come out I plan to buy one. Recoil similar to .38 or .38+P with .357mag power (.357mag out of a 2" barrel power anyway). That coupled with a second snub chambered in .22lr for most snub practice and I should be well served. However, I wouldn't feel at all disadvantaged with either the .32mag or .38 snubs out there and I plan to own both (though I will now avoid .357mag snubs). In fact, if I move to a carry state before the 9mm snubs are generally available I'll probably get the .32mag (since I plan to be up and running with reloading within a few weeks).

[denfoote]

I'm sitting here perusing these responses with my newly acquired .38 snub at my side, wondering if I'm just whistling "dixie" for even considering continuing carrying this weapon. Then, I realize that I have never encountered a hob goblin, chupacabra, big foot, monster space alien, alligator, or drug crazed loser!!!! The possibility of me meeting up with a bad guy wearing thick heavy coats and such, in a place where it is 100+ degrees for more than half the year is pretty remote also. :rolleyes: For the places where I regularly go, I figure it will indeed do the job if called upon to do so.

Now, trips out into the desert are another matter. Then it will be the Glock 29 AND the 30-30 or SKS!!! ;) You meet a lot of strange critters out in the back woods of Arizona!!!! :evil:

Oh, and Tamara,

"It's the end of the world as we know it.

It's the end of the world as we know it.

It's the end of the world as we know it...

and I feel fine."


:neener: :neener: :neener: :neener: