Yet another Movie gun flub!


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entropy
January 4, 2006, 06:37 PM
Anybody look at the cover of "The Great Raid"?

The soldier to the left kneeling firing a pistol is firing an M9 Beretta!:p

The others seem to be wearing Ridgeway caps, which didn't appear until the Korean War. And don't the look scary with the scabbards on their mounted M5 bayonets?:rolleyes:

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Manedwolf
January 4, 2006, 07:40 PM
Anybody look at the cover of "The Great Raid"?

The soldier to the left kneeling firing a pistol is firing an M9 Beretta!:p

The others seem to be wearing Ridgeway caps, which didn't appear until the Korean War. And don't the look scary with the scabbards on their mounted M5 bayonets?:rolleyes:

Even easier thing to spot, just look for how many new movie promo posters with someone holding a gun (and not aiming it) have the actor with their finger in the trigger guard.

kentucky_smith
January 4, 2006, 07:44 PM
http://images.amazon.com/images/P/B000BOH8UK.01._SCLZZZZZZZ_.jpg

looks like a hump on the end there, but hard to make out.

Devonai
January 4, 2006, 07:49 PM
Obviously the movie is alluding to the fact that the US government went back in time to supply 9mm pistols to our GIs.

Just like the SIG P-series pistol being held by the guy on the poster for Munich.

I've long suspected that in film production companies there is a great distance between the technical advisors and the ones who cobble together the poster. I would be surprised if there was actually an M9 in the movie.

A quick stroll down the aisles at Blockbuster reveals many covers where a pistol has rather obviously been Photoshopped into the picture, or take for example the standee for Underworld: Evolution I saw in the theatre which shows the world's first P99 with a left-handed ejection port.

Carl N. Brown
January 4, 2006, 08:02 PM
My favorite gripe are the left-to-right reverses like the poster and
VHS/DVD cover for Enemy at the Gates, with the Mosin with the left
hand bolt hah hah. Not funny. Or the Billy the Kid movie
The Left Handed Gun based on a tintype photo of William Bonney:
tintypes were mirror-images (if you see the tintype, notice the
loading gate on the Winchester).

Of course, 9mm pistols seem to be easier to adapt to blanks than
1911 .45s, which is why reel Sgt York used a Luger and real Sgt York
used a GI Colt.

Movie prop departments need historical advisers.

Manedwolf
January 4, 2006, 08:08 PM
One that could have been a decent bit of writing turned out to be a flub, instead.

When the bad guy in Titanic pulls out a 1911 and starts shooting with it, yeah, it is possible that someone with that much wealth and power could have ordered the newest, most advanced pistol that just came out last year. I believe they'd just been available to civilians for a few months in mid-1912, when the movie, obviously, was set.

Except it was a nickel-plated version that didn't yet exist, and if you look at it in his hand and when he throws it, you can quite clearly see by the curved, not straight grip that it's a 1911A1...which wouldn't exist for more than a decade yet.

Oh well.

Manedwolf
January 4, 2006, 08:16 PM
Of course, 9mm pistols seem to be easier to adapt to blanks than
1911 .45s, which is why reel Sgt York used a Luger and real Sgt York
used a GI Colt.
Movie prop departments need historical advisers.

You can get a decent Italian-made replica 1911 that fires 8mm blanks for less than $100. This place has a bunch: http://www.replicaweaponry.com/blanfirgunre.html

I'd helped someone get some for a play. The replicas are semi-auto, and they throw brass with the same action as the real thing. Things like the Beretta 92 replicas are even single/double action! There's no excuse for not having reasonably historically accurate blank-firing prop weapons, not when they're this cheap.

Detritus
January 5, 2006, 01:57 AM
Of course, 9mm pistols seem to be easier to adapt to blanks than
1911 .45s, which is why reel Sgt York used a Luger and real Sgt York
used a GI Colt.


remind me didn't they actually Listen to YORK (yes Alvin york was a tech advisor for teh movie, in fact he demanded gary cooper play him or no dice on permission) and have cooper shooting a M1903, instead of going with what has become a gunny urban legend of York doing it all with a 1917??

for those who don't know Alvin York himself on repeated occasions stated that the guns he used in the capture of all those germans, were his issued 1903 springfield and a 1911 (can not recall where or how he came about having the pistol, it's been awhile).

Oldtimer
January 5, 2006, 01:05 PM
It's HOLLYWOOD! They try to "disguise" Sherman tanks to look like "Panzer" tanks, due to the lack of having actual German-made tanks. In numerous war movies, the "Nazi" planes are actually P-51 Mustangs with Swastika emblems on the wings.

Back when "Sergeant York" was filmed, the 1911 pistol wasn't easily converted to shoot blanks, so they "fibbed" by having York (Cooper) disarming a German officer and using his Luger. By the way, York was ISSUED a 1911, since he was an NCO, but he also carried an issued '03 rifle.

I don't recall the name of the WW-II movie that I recently saw, but it had an American soldier aiming a 1911 at an enemy soldier. The sights on that 1911 had the "three-dot" configuration, which was NOT on any issued WW-II pistols!

BigG
January 5, 2006, 01:53 PM
Alvin C. York was a corporal when he did the action that won the MOH. He was later promoted to sergeant.

entropy
January 5, 2006, 01:55 PM
It's HOLLYWOOD!

Yeah, but Dale Dye was the military/technical adviser for "The Great Raid", and I always thought he was better than that.

looks like a hump on the end there, but hard to make out.

We have a display stand at work and the pistol is about 2/3 actual size on it, and it is plainly an M9/ 92FS. (I had 45 of them in my Arms room, I can say this with certainty.)

Detritus
January 5, 2006, 03:49 PM
Alvin C. York was a corporal when he did the action that won the MOH. He was later promoted to sergeant.

you beat me to it, i wonder at which point the WW1 army issued an NCO a sidearm.

i have one of York's bios around here somewhere, picked it up to read about the man, and never got beyound chapter 1! got to looking it over once i was home and discovered that it should have been placed in the "christian books" section instead of the WW1 area. :banghead:
once i realized i'd not gotten study of his life, but a study of his "good works" with his life as a background, (granted it does seem to give detail in most of the "important" areas of his life that you'd expect, i just didn't like the semi-veiled agenda). i quit reading it and have not yet found a book locally that contains what i was looking for.

BigG
January 5, 2006, 04:08 PM
I found a good bio and details on the Argonne Offensive where York won his MOH, but can't come up with it right off.

York was a backward fellow from a backward area and he was trying to do what he thought was right in not taking anything from the companies that gave him offers. Still, he ended up taking some stuff later on and his life to me looked like a colossal waste when I read about the finagling that went on among family, relatives, etc.

Just a lesson (to me) in what harm fanaticism can do. Not meant to set anybody off, but his story is a textbook example of real exploitation by unworthy peckerwoods. :barf:

mbs357
January 5, 2006, 04:13 PM
I noticed just the opposite in Hot Shots Part Deux the other day.
Nearly every person in the movie was very good for keeping their finger out of the trigger guard (except one scene with Saddam, but he did a good job too).
Pretty crazy.

Carl N. Brown
January 5, 2006, 05:06 PM
There is always the fig leaf that the cover art
for the Great Raid DVD was done by an Ad Agency
with no connection to the production company that
made the movie.

Hollywood needs to realize that historical accounts
are going to be scrutinized for detailed accuracy,
down to the posters, VHS boxes and DVD sleeves.

Manedwolf
January 5, 2006, 05:08 PM
Yeah, but Dale Dye was the military/technical adviser for "The Great Raid", and I always thought he was better than that.


It might not appear that way in the film, itself. The poster art for many things has NOTHING to do with actual filming or even photographs of actual products.

Graphics artists will often use stock imagery that's of the right angle and make composite images that best fit the needed composition. It's not at all unusual for a still ad of, say, a running person in front of a building to have a head and an arm from another stock image, since it fit the needed pose better. At the kind of resolutions you're talking about, you can go in at the pixel level and put things in people's hands, change their head, and nobody will know differently.

You can sometimes spot goofs, like two left shoes on a figure, a finger out of place, or, if the graphic designer is a non-gun knowledgeable sort who wouldn't know a Beretta from a super soaker and won't ask someone who does know, you get the wrong gun in a poster.

outofbattery
January 5, 2006, 05:15 PM
I don't recall the name of the WW-II movie that I recently saw, but it had an American soldier aiming a 1911 at an enemy soldier. The sights on that 1911 had the "three-dot" configuration, which was NOT on any issued WW-II pistols!

In Band of Brothers, the GI threatening the baker when getting bread to take to the concentration camp used a .45 with dot sights. Far worse errors have been commited but I thought it was funny and to be honest,I'm surprised I even caught it.

One gun/editing flub I noticed this past year was watching The Mummy on TV and noticed that the hero's shotgun jammed while he was shooting but they quickly edited it without snipping the flub.

Manedwolf
January 5, 2006, 05:28 PM
One that I'd heard actually did a decent job was the more recent "The Mummy"...that the main character's shoulder holster guns were actually a couple of French 1873 11mm service revolvers.

If so, I'm impressed.

SixForSure
January 5, 2006, 05:43 PM
Throughout the movie, John Wayne, et al, are clearly seen carrying and shooting 1873s. The rifles that the gun runner was trying to sell appeared to be "Yellow Boys" This didn't seem out of place until JW introduced the prisoner he had been chasing to the woman who had been his neighbor. She was a widow and said her husband had been killed 4 years earlier at the Battle of San Jacinto. The battle was fought 21 April, 1836!

Carl N. Brown
January 5, 2006, 06:03 PM
She had been a widow for (1872 - 1836) at least 36 years.
If that's the movie I remember, she looked good for a woman in
her fifties.

afasano
January 5, 2006, 07:01 PM
In the movie "The Big Red One" in the free the death camp scene a GI shoots his M-1 Rifle 18 rounds into an oven before the clip ejects.

BigG
January 5, 2006, 07:10 PM
Afasano: I thought Mark Hammill kept jamming new clips into his Garand until he ran out, then Lee Marvin handed him another one and said something like, "go ahead, kid." :eek:

kentucky_smith
January 5, 2006, 07:41 PM
John Wayne liked carrying 1892 Winchesters in many of his movies, especially ones set around Civil War.

afasano
January 5, 2006, 11:02 PM
Afasano: I thought Mark Hammill kept jamming new clips into his Garand until he ran out, then Lee Marvin handed him another one and said something like, "go ahead, kid." :eek:

Then he must have found one that held 18 rounds because he just kept on shooting in front the camera, then the old "M-1 ping" and he shoved another in but that was off camera.

Carl N. Brown
January 5, 2006, 11:15 PM
The proverbial cutting room floor is probably full of cut scenes
of cowboys sloowly reloading SAAs, gangsters swapping out
mags and WWII soldiers jamming enbloc clips in Garands.

I remember a really bad James Bond clone movie that did impress
us kids because the secret agent did reload in gun fight. We
talked about that in lunch line the next day at school.

Hollywood just doesn't realize that people do appreciate
attention to detail.

el44vaquero
January 5, 2006, 11:42 PM
I like the scenes were a good guy is pinned down behind something and starts reloading while still being shot at. Also thought it was really something as Clint Eastwood would slowly walk up the middle of the street while he was slowly thumbing in bullet by bullet.

Crom
January 5, 2006, 11:53 PM
If you want to watch a movie with gun flubs, check out "Battle Of The Bulge".

Henry Fonda uses an M1 Garand to try a long range shot at the German Panzer Commander. Funny thing is if you look closely at his rifle it has no rear peep-sight (no wonder he missed). Chaffee Tanks are referred to as Shermans, M48 Patton Tanks are used as German Tigers, there is a Browning50 Cal. M-2 mounted on a German half-track, and it's a C-47 that drops the German paratroopers.

Lupinus
January 6, 2006, 12:43 AM
I love when they hide behind a wooden desk and the particle board crap stops everything short of an air strike.

Razor
January 6, 2006, 01:46 AM
Then he must have found one that held 18 rounds because he just kept on shooting in front the camera, then the old "M-1 ping" and he shoved another in but that was off camera.

He didn't actually fire all of his shots in front of the camera. The scene shifts to show the rest of his squad in the camp and their reactions to his shooting.

It's also something that was corrected in the "Reconstruction" Version of the movie. They redid the audio to have the "ping" and reloading sound during the scene. The folks that did the reconstruction said in the documentary that they did a lot of research on the internet, so our complaining actually amounted to something...:)

rem870
January 6, 2006, 07:21 AM
In Saving Private Ryan Barry Pepper fires his '03a4 7 or 8 times without reloading it in the final battle right before he gets killed. Another flop I found was in O Brother Where Art Thou. George Clooney and the other guy are in the theater and when the prisoners come in to watch the movie, the guard with the shotgun has a Remington 870. I believe that movie was set in the 1930's, right?

MechAg94
January 12, 2006, 04:09 PM
remind me didn't they actually Listen to YORK (yes Alvin york was a tech advisor for teh movie, in fact he demanded gary cooper play him or no dice on permission) and have cooper shooting a M1903, instead of going with what has become a gunny urban legend of York doing it all with a 1917??

for those who don't know Alvin York himself on repeated occasions stated that the guns he used in the capture of all those germans, were his issued 1903 springfield and a 1911 (can not recall where or how he came about having the pistol, it's been awhile).
I thought I had read that York was issued a 1917 rifle, but was able to trade/obtain a 1903 because he did not like the aperture sight. He used the 1903 in combat.

entropy
January 12, 2006, 04:23 PM
I noticed another one at work... on the display for Transporter 2, the goofy looking chick with the overdone black eye shadow has two of those $20 "replicas" you see in the ads in the backs of gun magazines....you know the ones; Commando Pistol, and the Mac 10, complete with 'silencer' and 'red dot' sight...:rolleyes: At least his Beretta 92 Stainlesses look real.

Justin
January 12, 2006, 04:37 PM
If you want to watch a movie with gun flubs, check out "Battle Of The Bulge".

Henry Fonda uses an M1 Garand to try a long range shot at the German Panzer Commander. Funny thing is if you look closely at his rifle it has no rear peep-sight (no wonder he missed). Chaffee Tanks are referred to as Shermans, M48 Patton Tanks are used as German Tigers, there is a Browning50 Cal. M-2 mounted on a German half-track, and it's a C-47 that drops the German paratroopers.

Large peices of military equipment are, more often than not, incorrect. For a perfect example, see the large tank battle scene in Patton.

This is because oftentimes production companies will secure the help of actual military forces in filming, and the director is pretty much stuck with running what they brung.

Especially in the days before the ability to hire Digital Domain or Industrial Light and Magic to recreate an entire rolling army of obsolete and (now rare) vehicles.

Oftentimes in these threads people nitpick the innaccuracies in movies with no thought given to what it actually takes to produce a movie in the first place.

Even assuming the director and producer(s) are attempting to be authentic, it's still possible for things to get flubbed in any one of the three major parts of film making- improper research done in Pre-Production can result in anachronisms and incorrect information fed up the line. Screw-ups on set, equipment failure, bad weather, budgetary constraints, or any number of nearly an infinite number of factors can cause flubs during the Production phase, and even more flubs can be introduced during the Post-Production phase as a result of sloppy editing, a lack of footage to work with, an ignorant foley artist, or incorrect texture maps used by the 3d animation firm.

Film is a highly collaborative effort undertaken by literally thousands of people on any given production, and if even one or two of those people aren't in the loop, it can result in visual and audio goofs.

Realize that I didn't even touch on the design firms hired to create the posters, flyers, DVD covers and inserts, publicity stills, television trailers, and websites used to promote a film.

"A movie is never finished, only abandoned."
~ Variously attributed to George Lucas, Martin Scorsese, and Francis Ford Coppola.

Thain
January 12, 2006, 04:49 PM
I'm going to commit heresy, and point out some goops in what most folk consider to be one of the most accurate war flicks (Blackhawk Down) and one of the most chest-thumping All-American war films (Patton)

Blackhawk Down Goofs:

Flying into Mogadishu in Blackhawk Down one soldier holds a paperback edition of Grisham's "The Client." In 1993, this book was only available in hardcover; the paperback was not published until `94 :D

The call to prayer in the beginning was called after the sun had risen. There are no calls to prayer after sunrise until after noon, qhich coming from a highschool with a large Muslim minority (~20%) I found really odd.

When Durant's crash site is overrun, Randy Shugart is shot 11 times with a Tokarev pistol which, IIRC, only holds eight rounds.

Patton Goofs:

The tanks used in the major battle scene in North Africa are all post-War tanks. The Germans use M48 tanks (`53) and the Americans drive the M47 (`52). Ironically, the M47 is popularly called the 'Patton 1'!

Germany is already divided to East and West Germany in the map of Europe seen in the headquarters, and all other national borders are post WWII. It's clear as day, too!

Patton is shown having read a book, "The Tank in Battle", by his arch nemesis, Rommel. Rommel never wrote any book dealing with tanks or armored warfare! (Although, he wrote several books on infantry tactics before the Second World War.)

Lastly, during the first battle scene Patton oversees in the film, he uses a pair of binoculars clearly marked "Japan"!

Lastly, in Glory, as they hand out the Enfield rifles, he calls out each one's serial number. Authentic Enfield rifles don't have serial numbers... (But the reproductions do!)

thorazine
January 12, 2006, 07:43 PM
I remember a really bad James Bond clone movie that did impress us kids because the secret agent did reload in gun fight. We
talked about that in lunch line the next day at school.

Not sure if this is the same one you're thinking of,

Pierce Brosnam as 007 (forget the movie title) - The sceene: during a virtual training simulation he performed a tactical reload after firing perhaps four to six rounds.

Carl N. Brown
January 12, 2006, 08:02 PM
No, I was a kid in lunch line over 40 years ago.
The movie was a British spy flick that tried to
cash in on the success of Dr. No and From Russia
with Love.

jtward01
January 13, 2006, 09:31 AM
John Wayne liked carrying 1892 Winchesters in many of his movies, especially ones set around Civil War.

Many of the old Bonanza episodes were set just before and just after the Civil War, yet Ben and the boys always carried Colt SAAs, even though they weren't invented for another nine years or so.

armoredman
January 13, 2006, 01:00 PM
Movie makers wanting real German WWII tanks have always been stymied - ONE running Tiger in the world, in England, and ONE running Tiger II, in fr*nce. Computer work is the only way. There are maybe 40 running Panzer IVs left all over the world - hence the T-34s in Kelly's Heros being called Tigers!
BTW, with the fall of the Soviet Union, and the outpouring of C&R stuff, like WWII Mosins and captured Mausers, I would love to see the armor they have stashed....They refurbished EVERYTHING they captured, and stashed it...

HEAVY METAL 1
January 13, 2006, 09:27 PM
I always find these threads entertaining. When my wife & I saw Titanic :barf: and the rich man's valet was shooting with his 1911 I mentioned to my wife about the chrome plating possibly not being avialable to consumers yet at that time and if the guy gets more than 8 shots out of it it's bogus (score one for me ), but I did not catch the mainspring housing detail. You guys are just amazing on your attention to detail about guns in movies. I have spotted a few things over the years, but you guys are WAY outta my league. I have actually went back and rerented some movies just to see the mistakes I have read about in such threads.

KriegHund
January 13, 2006, 09:37 PM
I love when they hide behind a wooden desk and the particle board crap stops everything short of an air strike.


Lol, so true...

CrazyIrishman
January 14, 2006, 04:02 AM
It's HOLLYWOOD! They try to "disguise" Sherman tanks to look like "Panzer" tanks, due to the lack of having actual German-made tanks. In numerous war movies, the "Nazi" planes are actually P-51 Mustangs with Swastika emblems on the wings.

Back when "Sergeant York" was filmed, the 1911 pistol wasn't easily converted to shoot blanks, so they "fibbed" by having York (Cooper) disarming a German officer and using his Luger. By the way, York was ISSUED a 1911, since he was an NCO, but he also carried an issued '03 rifle.

I don't recall the name of the WW-II movie that I recently saw, but it had an American soldier aiming a 1911 at an enemy soldier. The sights on that 1911 had the "three-dot" configuration, which was NOT on any issued WW-II pistols!

Hey Oldtimer,

I do recall seeing a WWII movie with the Luftwaffe using P-51's in place of ME-109's. I don't recall the title but the P-51's were painted olive drab and the US Army Air Corp was using P-47 Thunderbolts to escort B-17 bombers.

Razor
January 14, 2006, 04:16 AM
I don't recall the name of the WW-II movie that I recently saw, but it had an American soldier aiming a 1911 at an enemy soldier. The sights on that 1911 had the "three-dot" configuration, which was NOT on any issued WW-II pistols!

It might of been a Band of Brothers episode.

Private Webster had one when he confronted the German baker in "Why We Fight".

jtward01
January 14, 2006, 07:36 AM
Hey Oldtimer,

I do recall seeing a WWII movie with the Luftwaffe using P-51's in place of ME-109's. I don't recall the title but the P-51's were painted olive drab and the US Army Air Corp was using P-47 Thunderbolts to escort B-17 bombers.


The movie is Fighter Squadron with Robert Stack and Edmund O'Brien. The Germans were portrayed by a US Air National Guard squadron, I think from Oregon (they're credited at the end of the film). They're flying P-51 Mustangs painted gray with black iron crosses and swastikas on them. The movie uses a lot of real WWII combat and gun camera film, so it's pretty cool.

McCall911
January 14, 2006, 10:10 AM
Ah, some of those silly old Westerns from the 30s to as late as the 50s!

I still get the giggles watching those gun-clueless actors trying to sling those bullets out of those SAA Colts!

So I guess gun flubs will continue to amuse us for many years to come!

Husker1911
January 14, 2006, 12:24 PM
Where can I get one of those nifty 55 gallon oil drums that, even when empty, cause bullets to richochet off and protect the actor?

Checkman
May 16, 2006, 04:19 PM
I saw a Gary Cooper "Southern" set in Florida during the Seminole Indian war(s). Now I'm hazy on that time period but I know that it took place many years before the Civil War.

Everyone is running around with Colt SAA and 1863 Springfield muskets. My understanding is that Cooper was quite a shooter and owned many guns. Guess he didn't worry about Hollywierd getting the details so screwed up. As long as his check cleared guess he wasn't worried about it.

Jguy101
May 16, 2006, 04:53 PM
The left-handed guns on posters may be from the cameras making everything look backwards. Apple's iSight webcam does that.

gopguy
May 16, 2006, 05:25 PM
Carl mentioned James Bond movies.....I think back to the first one. Dr. No when Dent comes to kill Bond in the bungalo of the Chinese secretary and Bond has rolled the mattress to make it look like someone is lying in the bed. Dent opens the door and clearly aims a 1911 at the bed firing it six times. Bond then gets the drop on him. Dent drops the gun but then grabs it while Bond is looking away.He aims and pulls the trigger dropping the hammer on a empty chamber and then Sean Connery says "Thats a Smith and Wesson and you have had your six" then he shoots Dent.....not with a PPK but a supressed FN 1922....I saw a lot of interesting rubbish about guns in Bond flicks as a kid. :rolleyes:

Deanimator
May 16, 2006, 05:26 PM
Just look at the cover of any paperback novel that has firearms on it more exotic than a Colt Detective Special. Sights on M16s will be backward. There will be no, wrong or extra controls. Entire cartridges will exit barrels.

Deanimator
May 16, 2006, 05:44 PM
Everyone is running around with Colt SAA and 1863 Springfield muskets.
This sort of thing was extremely common back in the '30s and '40s.

Francis Bannerman & Co. in NY had a huge supply of .50-70 and .45-70 Trapdoor Springfields that the studios took advantage of. Movies like "Northwest Passage" (about Rogers' Rangers) routinely substituted Trapdoors for flintlocks, on rare occasions adding dummy frizzens. Black powder wasn't anything like as popular as it is today, so unlike "The Patriot" and other period pieces, there were few authentic flintlocks to be issued to the "cast of thousands".

For a very interesting substitution, watch "Objective Burma" with Errol Flynn. There were apparently no M1919A4 Brownings available, so aircooled Maxims of some sort were substituted. You can see the "fusee spring covers" on the left side. In addition, a number of poorly made dummy Thompsons were also used. The Japanese are armed with long Mauser rifles, probably GEW98s.

John G
May 16, 2006, 06:19 PM
In The Blue Max, First World War German infantrymen are shown carrying Lee-Enfield #4 rifles. Not only is the #4 a British, not German, rifle, it didn't exist for another 20+ years.

RecoilRob
May 16, 2006, 08:56 PM
Speaking of the Blue Max, the director wanted the shooting to look as realistic as possible so they used live ammo wherever they could safely.

Only thing was, the camera only caught the occasional muzzle flash....as it will in the real world. Ended up looking less 'real' than the usual long duration flash blanks used by everyone else.

But, how could we talk about the Blue Max without mentioning Ursula Undress???!!

DRZinn
May 17, 2006, 10:03 PM
http://www.nitpickers.com/

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