TEOTWAWKI gun


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iapetus
January 4, 2006, 07:08 PM
Daft subject, but since when has that mattered here ;)

I was watching Mad Max 2 (http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0082694/) the other day, and started wondering about what would be the best sort of gun for such a scenario.

The setting:
Post-Apocalyptic Australia.

Terrain:
Flat, open, semi-desert. Good roads (when not blocked by destroyed vehicles).

Technology:
Limited, and unreliable. Motor vehicles still available, but fuel very scarce (so much so that Max was willing to collect fuel from a destroyed enemy vehicle while there were still hostiles in the vicinity). Firearms exist, but are very rare, and ammo is in very short supply (Max has a sawn-off shotgun, with is empty for about half the film; the leader of the barbarians has a revolver; that's about it). Most people using bows/crossbows, or axes/iron bars from close combat.

The bad guys:
Roaming barbarian hordes in cars/ bikes/ dune buggies, etc, armed as above.

The good guys:
Living in isolated fortified camps, or trying to cross country in trucks/busses, with faster vehicles as escorts.


Given that some of the "main characters" have access to much better technology than average (Max with "the last of the V8 interceptors", the Gyro Captain with his gyrocopter), we can assume you can also have a much better gun than most people, plus ammunition, but resupply may be a problem.

So: what would be most useful?

My thoughts have narrowed it down to three possibilities:

AK/similar self-loading / select fire rifle with large magazines. Good for defending encampment from barbarians trying to scale the walls, or once they have got inside. Also good for defending your fuel truck or transport bus from bandits trying to hijack it.

Full-bore bolt-action hunting or sniping rifle. Can take out the enemy before they are aware of you, and keep them away from your camp, and ammo isn't too bulky. But not too great once they get in close.

50BMG sniper rifle. Long range, so you can take out the barbarian chief when he has camped outside your walls at a distance too great for other rifles. Also can disable enemy vehicles before you make your sortie from camp. But ammo will be bulky and probably harder to replenish than for other weapons.

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nfl1990
January 4, 2006, 07:26 PM
Ruger 10/22, better than a bow/axe, and small light rounds.

bogie
January 4, 2006, 07:35 PM
A little research into siege engines would go a LONG way...

Lay back a few hundred yards, and start chunkin' 50# boulders...

Devonai
January 4, 2006, 07:45 PM
A little research into the search engine would also go a long way.

mustanger98
January 4, 2006, 09:01 PM
My own thoughts on this, considering the quotes...

Technology:
Limited, and unreliable. Motor vehicles still available, but fuel very scarce (so much so that Max was willing to collect fuel from a destroyed enemy vehicle while there were still hostiles in the vicinity). Firearms exist, but are very rare, and ammo is in very short supply (Max has a sawn-off shotgun, with is empty for about half the film; the leader of the barbarians has a revolver; that's about it). Most people using bows/crossbows, or axes/iron bars from close combat.

Notice the shortage of ammo and fuel. You do not want them to get within bow range much less close enough to use axes and clubs. Common sense. I think anything that requires fuel would be a mistake, but I hate to recommend horses because some people would be liable to shoot your horse out from under you for the meat.

Given that some of the "main characters" have access to much better technology than average (Max with "the last of the V8 interceptors", the Gyro Captain with his gyrocopter), we can assume you can also have a much better gun than most people, plus ammunition, but resupply may be a problem.

The V8 is obviously a gas hog. An ultralight aircraft of any sort might be viable but that's not a long-range aircraft. It's not a good idea to assume you can get anything. You get what you can, when you can. When it gives out, it's gone or cannibalized for parts for something else. Ammunition? Who's manufacturing ammunition? Don't assume there will be smokeless powder, primers, and jacketed bullets being manufactured either much less fully reloadable boxer primed brass cases. It'll more likely be blackpowder and it requires other methods and slightly different equipment, such as brass measures and drop tubes, to load. A Sharps sounds good to me in this context, but again, the other components.

AK/similar self-loading / select fire rifle with large magazines. Good for defending encampment from barbarians trying to scale the walls, or once they have got inside. Also good for defending your fuel truck or transport bus from bandits trying to hijack it.

Large magazines... to spray fire en masse from select fire weapons. Again, where are you gonna get ammo? It's tactically good in this context if you can get it, but not a sure thing. Knowledge and use of explosives would be good. Molotov Cocktails sound good if you can get enough gas. Blackpowder charges in metal cans with additional shrapnel may be more viable.

Full-bore bolt-action hunting or sniping rifle. Can take out the enemy before they are aware of you, and keep them away from your camp, and ammo isn't too bulky. But not too great once they get in close.

Once they get in close, anything is better than nothing, but you still have the ammo supply problem. Shotguns would be good for in-close work, but once they're inside the wire, you have to take a chance on hitting your own people as the shot pattern expands. It's not what you want, but it's what the situation degenerates to.

50BMG sniper rifle. Long range, so you can take out the barbarian chief when he has camped outside your walls at a distance too great for other rifles. Also can disable enemy vehicles before you make your sortie from camp. But ammo will be bulky and probably harder to replenish than for other weapons.

There you go again... assuming you can get ammo in the first place.

Tell you what the best firearms will be in this case... flintlock muzzleloading rifles and shotguns. To keep them running, you'll need a knowledge of blacksmithing, how to make FFg blackpowder, where to find flint and how to knap it (because if you can't get primers, you can't get #11 caps either), and how to mold lead into ball or conical bullet after you procure it from the ground.

In the situation where the enemy gets in close inside the wire, those muzzleloading shotguns would be real handy, but everybody better have several apeice loaded and ready.

You think the enemy will have anything better? Maybe, but a Mad Max world, he'll have the same ammo problems you have. Get the select fire stuff if you can, but have a steady back-up that'll be as reliable as possible because you have to be able to conserve on the technologically advanced. Once your supplies of .50BMG, 7.62x39, and whatever other metalic cartridges are gone, you cannot afford to bet on finding more.

Wllm. Legrand
January 4, 2006, 09:44 PM
One year after the ballon goes up the lowly .22 will probably come into its own.

Ubiquitous. Lethal. How many people hae been killed by head shots from a .22? A lot.

Nobody wants to get shot; even with a .22.

A serious wound without today's ER treatment could make a world of difference.

Quantity of ammo.

Any shot to the central nervous system will stop the animal/person in its tracks, almost all of the time.

12 ga. shotgun also, but the quantity of ammunition available will be a factor.

Black powder equivalence will become a new science/art form.

Lead bullets and roll your own shotgun shells (such as the Kachin in WWII) will become significant.

The PRIMER is the weak spot in a time of such scarcity. Without primers, it a whole new ball game.
Just a few thoughts off the top of my head.

longeyes
January 4, 2006, 09:48 PM
.22: head shots up-close, leg shots and knee shots farther out. If you're not ambulatory and can't deal with infected wounds, you won't last long when the balloon goes up.

R.H. Lee
January 4, 2006, 09:48 PM
An M16 with an M203 grenade launcher and a pickup truck full of ammo.

BothellBob
January 4, 2006, 09:59 PM
A flintlock and a set of instructions for how to build and refine saltpeter, charcoal, and where and how to extract sulphur. Add the chemistry and metalurgy of fulminate of mercury and you can change that to a cap and ball.
-BothellBob
Where's the spell checker?

mustanger98
January 4, 2006, 10:03 PM
A flintlock and a set of instructions for how to build and refine saltpeter, charcoal, and where and how to extract sulphur. Add the chemistry and metalurgy of fulminate of mercury and you can change that to a cap and ball.-BothellBob
Where's the spell checker?

I thought of that too. And if someone can make #11 caps, they can make Large Rifle primers and 209 shotgun primers. Now it's only a matter of brass and rebuilding the machines (or using found technology) to draw straight-wall brass cases.

Herself
January 4, 2006, 10:14 PM
Stick with the flintlocks, guys; you'll be having trouble enough trying to bore gun barrels without adding in brass-drawing and mercuric chemistry.

Me, I'd go for a brace of crossbows amd plenty of spare bowstrings. Ammo is often recoverable, they are silent, and there's no digging under dungheaps for niter! Making black powder in a state of nature is not simple or easy. And every time you shoot, you're putting up a big sign: "I gotta gun, it's yours if you can ambush me!"

And lay as low as you can for as long as you can. Until ammunition gets scarce, the guys with the big guns who can use 'em well are king. After they run low or out, it's a different game and archers have a chance.

--Herself

Dionysusigma
January 4, 2006, 10:27 PM
A trebuchet, and a herd of cattle. :neener: "Fetchez la vache!"

http://slacker.com/~snax/photos/albums/MontyPythonhumor/HolyGrail056.jpg


http://www.mwscomp.com/movies/grail/jpgs/lavache.jpg


:evil:

mustanger98
January 5, 2006, 12:03 AM
Stick with the flintlocks, guys; you'll be having trouble enough trying to bore gun barrels without adding in brass-drawing and mercuric chemistry.

That part about boring gun barrels... they're not bored. I watched a film on the Williamsburg riflesmiths and they showed the process. I know from watching G&A/GunTech/whatever, with modern rifles they take bar stock and lathe, bore, and rifle. The Williamsburg smiths actually hammer forged the barrel around a core they removed. Then they slicked up the bore and cut the grooves- that was a slick set-up they showed with that machine that ran the cutters on the spiral. They proof fired the barrel before they rifled it though... with 4X the normal charge. If they still had a barrel, they went ahead and built a rifle with it.

Me, I'd go for a brace of crossbows amd plenty of spare bowstrings. Ammo is often recoverable, they are silent, and there's no digging under dungheaps for niter! Making black powder in a state of nature is not simple or easy. And every time you shoot, you're putting up a big sign: "I gotta gun, it's yours if you can ambush me!"

Good points there too. But I subscribe to the theory that firearms and archery all have their place if they're available. You don't make unnecessary shots in this type situation. If you can use archery to good effect, go for it. Save the firearms for when there's no other way.

And lay as low as you can for as long as you can. Until ammunition gets scarce, the guys with the big guns who can use 'em well are king. After they run low or out, it's a different game and archers have a chance.

Stealth is the key.

whm1974
January 5, 2006, 04:42 AM
The setting:
Post-Apocalyptic Australia.


In Post-Apocalyptic America it would be years before we would run out of ammo.

Primers are not very high tech. For that matter, if any decent machinly is still intack ammo can still be made assuming the matarals can still be had.

Off hand stockpiles of .22 LR would last the longest.

-Bill

Nematocyst
January 5, 2006, 05:07 AM
I'm in the camp with Wllm, LongEyes & WHM: .22LR for me, please.

In fact, make mine a double (since they're so light weight they can be carried in large numbers in a pack or bike) with beer chaser.

CZ452 let's me use one at a time with (mad) max efficiency.

Every bullet counts though, so I'm not plinking in that case.
______

So, there's currently a requested restriction on shtf threads in some forums. (Seems we got a bit carried away with them after Ms. Katrina came through.)

Is this a new genre? TEOTWAWKI threads?

Nem

hoppinglark
January 5, 2006, 05:16 AM
www.primitiveweapons.com (http://www.primitiveweapons.com/home.html)

I think we ALL should consider ordering as much as we can afford from this guy before Hillary gets elected...

Oh and to you NSA agents who are reading this, I was just kidding !!!
LOL hee hee good one huh guys!

Nematocyst
January 5, 2006, 05:30 AM
www.primitiveweapons.com (http://www.primitiveweapons.com/home.html)
The page includes slingshots & slings among it's weapons.

I remember both from kidhood.

My favorite slingshot (among several) was a 'wrist rocket'. Imagine a standard slingshot but with a steel tube coming off the bottom and looping back over your support wrist. It also had tube rubber instead of thick rubber bands. It was an advance in technology at the time. I'm sure now they are radar guided and fire tomahawks.

But my favorite weapon (pre-.22 days) was my sling.

Made from a diamond-shaped piece of cowhide cut from a former football, with holes cut in the corners, through which were strung two pieces of nylon cord ~3' long.

One of them had a loop on the hand-hold end.

Put your middle finger of your right hand (if you're a right handed person) through the loop, with the other non-looped end between thumb & forefinger.

Load a well-chosen smooth stone into the pouch. With cord held according to above algorithm, and stone pulling pouch downward (via gravity), swing the sling slightly backwards from about 10 degrees to nearly horizontal. Then, using momentum of the return forward swing, SLING the pouch (on the cords) 360 degrees around, allowing your thumb and fore finger to 'let go' of the non-looped cord as it got to 360.

This action propelled said stone at a relatively high muzzle velocity (higher at least than one could throw it).

We used to have contest to see who was most accurate, where the target was a bottle, can or piece of wood at 25'.

Why, I remember the time I took a whitetail with one at 13 yds. :cool:

And if you believe that, I've got a very nice piece of bridge front property for sale under the Golden Gate.

Nem

Jubei
January 5, 2006, 09:39 AM
I would imagine that the weapons we have "post-apocolyps" will depend on what's available. By that I mean that we would constantly be taking what's available from where ever possible, aka scavenging.

Jubei

TarpleyG
January 5, 2006, 09:44 AM
http://www.slingshots.com/JPGS/slingshots.jpg

Leatherneck
January 5, 2006, 09:55 AM
The drawback of a .22 weapon is that when you're out of ammo, you're out of luck. I'd prefer ammo that was reloadable with home-cast bullets. Primers last forever of stored well, as does smokeless powder. Lead should be widely available. So a carbine in .30 to .40-something would be my choice. Plus the trusty 1911 .45 ACP, of course. :neener:

TC

Onmilo
January 5, 2006, 10:49 AM
A little research into siege engines would go a LONG way...

Lay back a few hundred yards, and start chunkin' 50# boulders...
LOL, And if that doesn't work, start lobbing dead animals!

Sheldon J
January 5, 2006, 02:55 PM
and get the heck out of anit gun Aussie land and head to the good ol gun loving U.S. where the bullets grow on trees, (except in Calif), and the streets are paved with reloads.:D

dasmi
January 5, 2006, 03:01 PM
12 gauge, and when ammo for that runs out, I'll break into my .22 stockpile, which is ample, and growing.

jtward01
January 5, 2006, 06:12 PM
I'd want a long barreled .22LR handgun for small game, a small, light, single-shot 20 gauge shotgun for birds, a 1911A1 or Beretta 92FS for personal defense and an M1A1 for camp defense and larger game such as hogs, deer, elk, bear, buffalo, etc.

Once ammo was no longer available a crossbow would be my first choice.

mustanger98
January 5, 2006, 06:30 PM
Ya'll notice the sights on TarpleyG's wristrocket? Hey, what's battlesight zero for that?:D

I'd prefer ammo that was reloadable with home-cast bullets. Primers last forever of stored well, as does smokeless powder. Lead should be widely available. So a carbine in .30 to .40-something would be my choice.

Sounds like .30-30, .32WinSpl, .45-70, and .45Colt to me.:D Good lead bullet and 7-12grs of Unique or 20grs of 2400 depending on which one you're loading. Of course, two of those can take a compressed charge of blackpowder too, so if you run out of smokeless and know how to make black, you're not out of luck.

.22 is good too, but... for the home-loaded stuff and lack of reloading equipment in some cases, this is where blackpowder and a Hawken or flintlock comes into its own. All you really gotta have there is a bullet mold, a pile of lead, and know what to do with it.

NineseveN
January 5, 2006, 06:35 PM
A little research into the search engine would also go a long way.

LMAO, but yeah, +1. :banghead:

Mad Bodhi
January 5, 2006, 08:00 PM
http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/photos/bandit_profile.jpghttp://www.quackenbushairguns.com/bandit_1.html
.50 caliber AIR GUN !!! Rig up a hand cranked compressor and your'e good to go.Some large caliber air guns were used by Napolean way back in the day with a precharged flask serving as the butt of the rifle.Multiple shots by quickly switching the flask.No gun powder,no primers,very few moving parts.I wonder if I could convert one of my M14's:scrutiny: .

VirgilCaine
January 5, 2006, 10:20 PM
Some large caliber air guns were used by Napolean way back in the day with a precharged flask serving as the butt of the rifle.Multiple shots by quickly switching the flask.No gun powder,no primers,very few moving parts.I wonder if I could convert one of my M14's:scrutiny: .

IIRC they were used against Napoleon, by the Swiss or the Austrians or some country around there.

biere
January 5, 2006, 11:02 PM
I prefer to bridge the gap from flintlock to modern stuff.

Give me a 45/70 rifle in lever action and you can load it with black powder.

For a handgun the 45 colt should have some black powder loads as well.

Personally I like buried smokeless powder and brass and primers and even bullets or at least some lead and a thing to cast the bullet shape with.

Pay attention to some of the cowboy shoots, they have some blackpowder shoots and stuff like the black powder ruger revolver is almost just like the single action big size rugers. I don't know what is available today other than the vaquero or whatever got downsized a bit so I don't know what happened with the black powder single action ruger.

Overall, if you plan to use it a lot you will run out of ammo. Even if you have 1 million rounds stored in your fortress, you will use your ammo up protecting that which you are using up.

Far better to appear poor and broke and wandering with some stuff buried here and there and over there as well.

whm1974
January 6, 2006, 03:57 AM
The drawback of a .22 weapon is that when you're out of ammo, you're out of luck. I'd prefer ammo that was reloadable with home-cast bullets. Primers last forever of stored well, as does smokeless powder. Lead should be widely available. So a carbine in .30 to .40-something would be my choice. Plus the trusty 1911 .45 ACP, of course.

Keep in mind that bricks of .22's are cheap and easy to store. It easy to have a big enough stockpile to last until the world recovers.

.50 caliber AIR GUN !!! Rig up a hand cranked compressor and your'e good to go.Some large caliber air guns were used by Napolean way back in the day with a precharged flask serving as the butt of the rifle.Multiple shots by quickly switching the flask.No gun powder,no primers,very few moving parts.I wonder if I could convert one of my M14's .

Get a mold and you will have ammo anywhere there is lead... keep some spare parts though.

-Bill

Mad Bodhi
January 6, 2006, 08:36 PM
IIRC they were used against Napoleon, by the Swiss or the Austrians or some country around there.

Quite right,my mistake.
http://www.quackenbushairguns.com/photos/50pig11.jpg
I still want one.Their are pics on the FALfiles of a nice spike and doe a member killed with a big bore air rifle.

mustanger98
January 6, 2006, 08:45 PM
I won't say it can't be done because I've heard plenty of times of squirells and rabbits being killed with Sheridan Blue Streak which is 5mm (=.20cal.). It takes 8 pumps, IIRC. However, in the context of pre-Apocalysp America, I wonder where this is legal. I know in GA, it's any centerfire rifle .22caliber or larger, any centerfire handgun, and any shotgun w/slugs 20guage or larger. Our state hunting regs don't say anything about airguns.:scrutiny: Post-Apocalyps, if it'll kill 'em, anything goes if it puts meat on the table or keeps the bad guys away.

whm1974
January 6, 2006, 09:38 PM
Here in IL, this large bore air rifle would be considered a firearm.

-Bill

Travis McGee
January 7, 2006, 02:50 AM
There are zillions of bullets around. There will be bullets after most of the sheeple have died off from starvation, disease, and civil war. Mad Max had it all wrong: guns and ammo will still be around after cars.

whm1974
January 7, 2006, 05:51 AM
There are zillions of bullets around. There will be bullets after most of the sheeple have died off from starvation, disease, and civil war. Mad Max had it all wrong: guns and ammo will still be around after cars.

I would have to agree. Most gunowners ussally have way more then one gun, and almost 1000 rnds for each one, in partickal .22 LR ammo. And this is not even counting survivalist types.

Plus some of the biggest ammo manufacters are located in small towns. Such as Olin/Winchester in E. Alton. So that town wouldn't be nuked. Plus as long as they could get the materals some ammo could still be produced.

-Bill

Kodiaz
January 7, 2006, 10:23 AM
Most gun owners do not have a thousand rounds for every firearm they own. My father's ammo cabinet probably has less than 1000 rounds total. And if were talking defense capable rounds less than 200. He had 3 12 ga. shotguns 1 20 ga. 1 .308 rifle 1 .22. And a revolver he hasn't shot in years. I hope my folks come to their senses and move here to Fl. as for me and I'm an aspiring survivalist. I have 700 rounds for the 1911, 500 for the .40, 170 00 Buck, 130 slugs. I have no EBR the minute I get my tax return I'm getting one.

wizard of oz
January 7, 2006, 10:49 AM
the true teotwawki gun here in oz is the .22lr rifle. You can use it to 'trade up' as well as hunting and self-defense in a pinch. We have such a huge problem with feral animals that it is impossible that such a firearm will ever be outlawed - rabbits would be in plague proportions even in the cities without them. Easiest ammo to stock up on.

kjeff50cal
January 7, 2006, 11:54 AM
The problem with Mad Max is the way Australia is banning guns you may only have the crossbow/bow & arrow/sling option. If you think that folks might raid the local millitary base, it may be a glowing field of slag or become the base of operations of an army commander turned warload who wants to setup his own country or the bad guys have had the idea first and then you have a situation that is worse than the movie.... BGs with Stingers and mortars not to mention heavy & light MGs.

kjeff50cal

mustanger98
January 7, 2006, 05:13 PM
The problem with Mad Max is the way Australia is banning guns you may only have the crossbow/bow & arrow/sling option. If you think that folks might raid the local millitary base, it may be a glowing field of slag or become the base of operations of an army commander turned warload who wants to setup his own country or the bad guys have had the idea first and then you have a situation that is worse than the movie.... BGs with Stingers and mortars not to mention heavy & light MGs.

Is it me or does that sound like present day Somalia?

Deadman
January 7, 2006, 07:34 PM
The most obvious choice would be a .22lr rifle.
Second choice would be a 5.56x45 based rifle due to civilian, military & law enforcement stocks.
Third choice would be something in .243 winchester as it is apparently the most popular (highest selling) centerfire cartridge here in Aus.

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