Bounty Hunters - What IF?


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Werewolf
January 4, 2006, 08:34 PM
While watching a show that had bounty hunters in it I got to wondering...

A bounty hunter breaks into your home in a make my day state and you kill him.

Is it a good shoot?

Most make my day laws refer to unlawful entry. Is a bounty hunter entering your home unlawfully even if you are a fugitive? Is he entering your home unlawfully if he gets the wrong address (don't laugh - if the police do the same thing they aren't breaking any law) after all in many states bounty hunters are officers of the court.

Makes one wonder. Anyone (like the lawyers among us) know how a situation like postulated above would be treated? Care to enlighten us?

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Optical Serenity
January 4, 2006, 08:39 PM
Almost all states have laws to supplement the federal law providing that if a bounty hunter has reasonable means to believe his fugitive is in your residence, he can make entry.

JJpdxpinkpistols
January 4, 2006, 08:40 PM
Most make my day laws refer to unlawful entry. Is a bounty hunter entering your home unlawfully even if you are a fugitive? Is he entering your home unlawfully if he gets the wrong address (don't laugh - if the police do the same thing they aren't breaking any law) after all in many states bounty hunters are officers of the court.

http://people.howstuffworks.com/bounty-hunting6.htm

Of course, we could just get rid of Habeaus Corpus, and we wouldn't have to worry about silly things like bail and such.

IV Troop
January 4, 2006, 08:42 PM
EVERY bounty hunter I have had to deal with was a wannabe cop. They always tried to dress and act like plainclothes cops and carried little phony badges to decieve people into thinking they were actually a law enforcement officer. Most were no better than the criminals they were after.

R.H. Lee
January 4, 2006, 08:44 PM
If you're already a fugitive to the point you've got a bounty hunter after you, what do you care? ATFOTRAF.

Werewolf
January 4, 2006, 08:50 PM
Hmmm... No definitive answer yet so let's get more specific.

The bounty hunter breaks into your home. He is armed. He got the wrong address. You confront him and blow him into the next life.

Is that a good shoot?

I tend to believe it would be but have nothing to back that belief up.

Comments?

agricola
January 4, 2006, 09:03 PM
Yes.

Even in the UK (so I take it that it would apply to you lot as well) if you honestly believe you are under threat of immediate serious physical harm you can use deadly force to defend yourself.

Its immaterial what the actual intention of the person forcing the door is; indeed over here we have had at least one case where a Police officer was killed by a known criminal who was found not guilty of his murder for the reason listed above (Keith Fordham's death at the hands of Kenneth Noye).

However if you knew, or had reasonable cause to suspect that he was acting in a lawful capacity then you would be expecting to make friends with Bubba very soon.

DHolland
January 4, 2006, 09:28 PM
It's not as unrestricted as most people think. For example:

Tex. Code Crim. P. 17.19 states that bail gent can obtain warrant from court before seeking to arrest defendant, and a judicial warrant is required to arrest with force, Tex. Code Crim. Proc Art 17.19 (Vernon 1977); see Austin v. State, 541 S.W.2d 162 (Tex. Cr. App. 1976). Uniform Criminal Extradition Act requires that bond agent or bounty hunter take defendant before magistrate prior to transporting over state lines. See Landry v. A-Able Bonding, Inc., 75 F.2d 200 (5th Cir. 1996).

Many states are very restricted. You can get some good state by state information from www.americanbailcoalition.com.

I believe a quick look at previous cases show that if you are being arrested by a Bounty Hunter in error, and they are using force, you can use the same degree of force to resist unlawful arrest. False arrest by a Bounty Hunter can, and has, resulted in charges of kidnapping, assault, etc. If you are not innocent, then you are SOL. A quick google search for false arrests by Bounty Hunters will show you a large number of cases, both where the Bounty Hunter ends up injured/in jail and a few others where they are found not guilty.

Myself, if I am innocent, they break in the house to arrest me ... well let's just say I'm not going.

f4t9r
January 4, 2006, 09:34 PM
Thats a good shoot
If he comes busting in and no backup , well its your word against ....
nobody hes not around anymore

Sean85746
January 4, 2006, 09:48 PM
I don't commit crimes.

I am a card carrying good guy. My wife is likewise a solid citizen. My daughter, while a terror, is only 21-months old, and as yet...committed no offenses.

If some so-called bounty hunter enters my house...and is armed...BANG BANG.

mbs357
January 4, 2006, 09:55 PM
Sounds to me like a good shoot.
By the way, Agricola, your sig line is from Yojimbo, yes?
Great movie.

Helmetcase
January 4, 2006, 10:11 PM
If you read up on the link provided, (http://people.howstuffworks.com/bounty-hunting2.htm) it does appear that they can only break and enter the skip's residence. They can't enter yours. Even if the skip happens to be your deadbeat brother in law who tells you he's just staying the night and doesn't mention that people are after you...if armed men enter your house forcefully, fire away.

Hkmp5sd
January 4, 2006, 10:17 PM
About a decade or so ago, a warrant team in Tampa busted the wrong door and the resident shot and killed the first cop through the door. The resident was wounded in the exchange and arrested for murder of a LEO. He was found innocent because he wasn't aware the guy was a cop and acted reasonably to an armed intruder.

A bounty hunter can only enter the house listed on the bail contract. If you notice, even the Dog asks permission before entering private property. If they know the fugitive is at the location and they are refused entry, they will call the local police.

NorthernExtreme
January 4, 2006, 10:19 PM
If you are in fear of death or great bodily harm (reasonable) it's a good shoot. If you are a fugitive, it is not.

There was a thread a long time ago on another site that posed the same question but insert Police and take out BH. The Bad guys learned that if they rush a home screaming Police the people inside are far less likely to respond with force.

What would you do?

Regards,

Helmetcase
January 4, 2006, 10:22 PM
About a decade or so ago, a warrant team in Tampa busted the wrong door and the resident shot and killed the first cop through the door. The resident was wounded in the exchange and arrested for murder of a LEO. He was found innocent because he wasn't aware the guy was a cop and acted reasonably to an armed intruder.
That case might be an important precedent for the Cory Maye case. I haven't followed up on that in a couple weeks...but that's a similar situation. Any chance you've got a link?

A bounty hunter can only enter the house listed on the bail contract. If you notice, even the Dog asks permission before entering private property. If they know the fugitive is at the location and they are refused entry, they will call the local police.
Makes sense. I would think his pay is the same regardless if the guy comes quietly or kicking and screaming, so why take a chance on getting shot? He found the bad guy, mission accomplished.

Sindawe
January 4, 2006, 10:26 PM
What would you do? Same as with police. If its just a mistaken ID or address, we can talk and sort the mistake out.

Door kickers will be served a tasty meal of brass and lead.

progunner1957
January 5, 2006, 12:06 AM
I don't commit crimes.

I am a card carrying good guy. My wife is likewise a solid citizen. My daughter, while a terror, is only 21-months old, and as yet...committed no offenses.

If some so-called bounty hunter enters my house...and is armed...BANG BANG.


+1:D

Bounty hunters have no police powers.

palerider1
January 5, 2006, 12:24 AM
the famous words " it is better to be judged by 12, than carried by 6" comes to mind. if you are a law abiding citizen and someone breaks into your house and says they are a bounty hunter, well, thats a decision that has to be made at that time. do you shoot, or succumb to someone that you dont even know is a bounty hunter. could be a home invasion. you have to make that choice. it is you and your family that are on the line and nobody can make a cookie cutter answer for this question. whatever you do , it is you who have to live with the consequenses.

i am new to this forum,,,,but i can already see that you, werewolf, like to stirr the pot.....i like that, and i like your pot stirring :)

palerider1

Lupinus
January 5, 2006, 12:44 AM
Seems like it would be a good shoot. Someone barges into my house, esspecialy with a waepon, I am going to asume bodily harm is intended or will happen if he discovers a person in the house, I will react with as many rounds of 30-30 as needed to stop however many have entered my home untill they are dead or retreat or I am dead. You would most definatly be on trial but unless you are in an extreme sheeply jury pool I would be willing to bed you would get off.

palerider1
January 5, 2006, 12:53 AM
30-30 is a good round, but it will go through about 4 walls in your house before exiting the house or hitting a 2x4,,,,,i used to keep one behind my desk at work. we dealt with alot of deviates. i miss my 30-30. i bought an old model 94 from a friend who had the gun in his family for probably 75 years. it was in about 75% condition on cosmetics, and about 95% on mechanics. i bought it for 100 bucks under the premise that if i ever sold it i would give him first dibbs, since it was in his family and he sold it to me because he needed money,,, when i needed money 15 years ago i sold it back to him for 100 bucks. i'll buy another one soon. nice round.

palerider1

gremlin_bros
January 5, 2006, 01:07 AM
in my history of deling with bail enforcement agents (bounty hunters) i have found most are very aware of the possability of just this thing happning. so they usaly try to apprehend the bg someplace public. if they do go to a house they usally have others watch the exits and go to the front door and knock,when the door is opened they identify themselves and state thier purpose for being there. then if the bg is there they usally try to run out the back only to be caught. if the bg dosent run out they ***(usally)*** ask to enter to serch and conform the bg isnt in residence. if told no they have this nasty habbit of just going back to thier vehicle and watching the place and waiting for the bg to exit. i know of verry few times where the agent forcefully entered a residence unless they were in pursuit of the bg and phisically saw them enter. most if not all wear clothing identifying then as a bail agent and try to carry a badge stating such not that it means diddly squat but they do try. i meen lets face it they are needed to do a job in society and are not verry appricated for the service they provide. so most who are awear of this try to be professional about thier busness. my experience comes from dealing with a few bail agents during collage when i was on ride alongs with the local police dept. it was not uncomon for the bail agent to inform us he was there and who he was after and even ask for help with a felon who was known to be violent or armed just try to be as safe as possable.

Lupinus
January 5, 2006, 01:17 AM
30-30 is a good round, but it will go through about 4 walls in your house before exiting the house or hitting a 2x4
This is true, but at the moment it is my primary HD weapon. Not my first choice but the best thing at my disposal.

Hkmp5sd
January 5, 2006, 01:23 AM
Any chance you've got a link?

Sorry, no link. Just a local event from long ago.

palerider1
January 5, 2006, 01:28 AM
Lupinus,
its a great gun,,,,keep it for your home defense. mayby there is some home defense round that you can use like the "glasier safety slug" offers. check it out if you want at http://www.dakotaammo.net/ good luck!!!!

palerider1

Lupinus
January 5, 2006, 01:55 AM
Right now it is loaded with winchester 170 grain silvertip CX2 ammo. It may pass through walls...but I dont plan on missing, course if it takes more then a shot or two I likly wont be able to hear for a week lol.

joab
January 5, 2006, 02:31 AM
Hkmp5sd
Is correct there have been at least a couple of cases of homeowners shooting cops serving a warrent on the wrong house and getting off in Fla

Janitor
January 5, 2006, 09:06 AM
If some so-called bounty hunter enters my house...and is armed...BANG BANG.
If somebody breaks into my home in the night I will not even consider that they might be stupid/insane enough to do so w/o being armed.

Bang
Bang
Bang
-

Oldtimer
January 5, 2006, 11:32 AM
I agree with IV Troop, for all of the "bounty hunters" I had contact with during my 31 years as a LEO were "wannabees". Had they tried to become REAL LEO's, they would have been fired!

The "Dog"? HAHA! What a FOOL! He looks like a "wannabee" rock star!

The most unusual bounty hunter that I encountered as a LEO was an ex-con! He had been convicted of armed robbery in New York, and had spent 10 years in prison! He was "armed", but his firearm was a replica .45 auto in a shoulder holster! That replica pistol was realistic, and had an actual 7-round magazine inserted in it....with LIVE rounds in the mag! He told me that he didn't know where to buy "dummy" .45 ACP rounds! BTW, he went to jail for "suspicion of armed robbery", since he was STILL on parole from New York AND he had a woman's nylon stocking in the front seat of his car. The nylon had been cut off and had eye holes cut into the material! I think the he thought that he was "James Bond"! HAHA!

sturmruger
January 5, 2006, 12:37 PM
I live in a suburban neighborhood that rarely sees any criminal activity. If anyone bursts into my house they are going to have some serious issues.


From what I have heard when someone uses a bail bondsmen's money to get out of jail they will usually have to sign over consent to search the houses of family members. Sometime the mother, or sister will even sign consent forms stating that the BH can search their house at any time if their loved one is skipping out.

SomeKid
January 5, 2006, 02:42 PM
From what I have heard when someone uses a bail bondsmen's money to get out of jail they will usually have to sign over consent to search the houses of family members. Sometime the mother, or sister will even sign consent forms stating that the BH can search their house at any time if their loved one is skipping out.

In that instance, I can only laugh.

"My deadbeat bro gave you permission to search my house? And You expect me to let you?"

In the second one, there is a quick fix.

"Yes, I did allow that once upon a time. That privilege is revoked. Get off my property."

Bounty Hunters: Comedy at work.

George Hill
January 5, 2006, 03:04 PM
Yeah, I can see its cool to bash fugitive recovery as wannabees. You could say the same thing for private security. Just a bunch of idiot wannabees but can'tbees.
But they serve a very good and very needed purpose. Even Dog, who I can't stand.
I worked fugitive recover and made dang good money doing it. We worked closely with the local LEOs and had a good relationship with most of them, those who didn't harbor opinions such as those illustrated here. How else is society going to bring those to justice who chose to go the other way? Wait till a cop pulls them over for a traffic citation? I'd rather see them picked up where they hide as soon as possible. That's where the fugitive recovery comes in. Doesn't cost the tax payers anything. Sure, they make mistakes. Everyone does. Even the police make mistakes. In fact, the police make a lot of mistakes... so let's not cast stones here.

Local bondsman out here runs an operation that spans most of Utah and near by states. The guy's house is a blooming mansion. I installed a number of computer systems there and made sure they were networked... the house was amazing. No way in hell a regular cop could ever afford a house like that. Maybe I am smelling some sour grapes in this thread.

On the other hand, yeah, some of the people that do that work are just wannabees. I worked with one for a short (thankfully) time and was glad when he quit. (Helped him make that choice) The guy was true moron. But you can get the same kinda guys as sworn police officers too. I've seen quite a few morons with badges that I wouldn't trust to guard my garbage can out on the curb.

Hey, lets start a thread about Male Nurses who are just Wannabe Doctors!
:cuss:

Sheldon J
January 5, 2006, 03:41 PM
On the other hand, yeah, some of the people that do that work are just wannabees. I worked with one for a short (thankfully) time and was glad when he quit. (Helped him make that choice) The guy was true moron. But you can get the same kinda guys as sworn police officers too. I've seen quite a few morons with badges that I wouldn't trust to guard my garbage can out on the curb.


There are good and bad in every profession, the boy and I were in the Detroit area Sunday on our way to the Pontiac gun show, and low and behold what do we see? Well they had to be bounty hunters, they were in foreign cars dressed to look like LEO mobiles, the give away was the non Ford or GM with non state issued plates.


Hey, lets start a thread about Male Nurses who are just Wannabe Doctors!
:cuss:

Better yet lets start one about the wannabe Doctors that decide if your surgery and stay in the hospital are necessary and will be covered by your insurance.:cuss: :banghead: :fire: :barf:

JAMES77257
January 5, 2006, 04:57 PM
If anyone busts through my door that isn't dressed in SWAT attire w/ 4 or 5 buddies, they're getting dumped. 99% of the time plain clothed cops don't do any door breaching.


Hello all, My first post!

jondar
January 5, 2006, 05:38 PM
Around five or six years ago in my son's home town a snitch gave the local police a tip that a man was dealing drugs out of an apartment at a certain address. It was a quadriplex apartment building and the suspect lived on the first floor. The suspect wasn't a vagrant. He had a job in the downtown area five days a week at a blue collar semi-professional job. the police could have picked him up at his place of employment, but they chose to bust in his apartment at two-thirty in the morning. The officer who used the battering ram was shot by the suspect with a .38 caliber revolver. The police retreated and identified themselves upon which the suspect surrendered. The wounded officer died later in the day. The suspect was charged with Capital murder. At the trial, the other occupants of the quadriplex testified that they did not hear the officers identify themselves; the officers swore they did identify themselves. The jury exonerated the defendant of the capital murder charges but found him guilty of the possession with intent to sell and he received four years for possession with intent to sell. He served two and was paroled. How much pain and suffering would have been saved by arresting the man at his place of employment and then entering his apartment and searching. Since then, I haven't heard another case in that city of battering ram entry.

Nicky Santoro
January 5, 2006, 05:59 PM
Bounty Hunters - What IF?

What if this did happen and someone chose to load the recently deceased Mr. Cop Wannabe up and dump him behind Walmart? Much like the tree falling in the forest, if no one hears it, is there a sound?

In accordance with board policy, the above is presented for discussion purposes only. Personally, I would call the local popo so the local DA could prosecute me into poverty.

Manedwolf
January 5, 2006, 06:09 PM
Almost all states have laws to supplement the federal law providing that if a bounty hunter has reasonable means to believe his fugitive is in your residence, he can make entry.

And what if they have the wrong house?

X Who
January 6, 2006, 01:48 AM
Bounty Hunters - What IF?

What if this did happen and someone chose to load the recently deceased Mr. Cop Wannabe up and dump him behind Walmart? Much like the tree falling in the forest, if no one hears it, is there a sound?

In accordance with board policy, the above is presented for discussion purposes only. Personally, I would call the local popo so the local DA could prosecute me into poverty.

Just as flight equals guilt, the described actions would be taken as guilt if/when this someone is caught. No story told later would be believed. There would also be a number of added charges and a guaranteed indictment.

If it is self-defense, then act like it.

DontBurnMyFlag
January 6, 2006, 04:48 PM
I heard a story once. I dont know how credible it was. But two bounty hunters broke into the wrong guys house in Texas. Apparently, this man was a gun owner and opened up on the Bounty Hunters with an AR-15 and killed them. I dont remember all the details, and I apologize, but from what I remember the shooter wasnt prosecuted.

lbmii
January 6, 2006, 06:44 PM
Well Bounty Hunting is a bit of a high risk type of job.

ctdonath
January 7, 2006, 01:59 AM
Good shoot.

I'll defend the need for, and leeway given to, bounty hunters.
BUT ... when a mistake on the bounty hunter's part leads to a proper indicated response from a normal homeowner (having not been provided certain relevant details in a timely manner, to wit: the guy crashing thru the door wih a gun at 2AM is not, as one may reasonably presume, a criminal), the maker of the mistake (to wit: bounty hunter invades wrong house) bears the responsibility and consequences.

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