Double Action ONLY


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SSN Vet
January 5, 2006, 10:22 AM
I'm familiar with single and double action revolvers and I used to own a 1911 45 ACP.....but....I'm not sure what the term double action ONLY means when applied to magazine fed pistols.

Any body willing to set me straight??

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Inline_6
January 5, 2006, 10:25 AM
I'm familiar with single and double action revolvers and I used to own a 1911 45 ACP.....but....I'm not sure what the term double action ONLY means when applied to magazine fed pistols.

Any body willing to set me straight??
On SA or DA/SA guns, the cycling of the slide cocks the hammer, making each shot SA. For a 1911 or BHP, all shots are this way. For a Sig, the first is DA, then the action of the slide renders the rest SA until decocked.

On DAO guns, the hammer returns to an upright position with the slide as it returns to battery, forcing the user to complete a DA pull for each shot.

Now... while I generally thought this was/is a terrible idea, the gun companies have caught on. The Para LDAs, Sig DAKs and H&K LEMs have DAO triggers that are nice and light (5 - 7lbs). This gives a user-friendly, consistent pull for each round. Hope this helps.

SSN Vet
January 5, 2006, 11:14 AM
I don't have an instrument to measure trigger pull and only own one hand gun to compare....a Taurus .357.

"About" what pull am I feeling in SA? DA?

sgt127
January 5, 2006, 11:28 AM
Realize I'm just giving a ballpark figure...
SA 2-4 pounds
DA 11-13 pounds

There are so many variables. But, those numbers should give you SOME idea of the difference in weight of trigger pull.

However, a very smooth double action with a wide smooth trigger face that weighs 12 pounds might feel much lighter than a crappy gritty double action with a sharp serrated trigger that only weighs 10 pounds....Does that make sense?

kage genin
January 5, 2006, 12:11 PM
I've been wondering about DAO triggers... is there a 'reset'? Or does the trigger need to be let all the way out before another press is made for a subsequent shot?

sgt127
January 5, 2006, 06:26 PM
They all have a reset. The length of the reset depends on the gun. Most behave pretty much like a DA revolver. The reset is almost at the front of the trigger stroke. The new Sig DAK has two resets. A short, slightly heavier one and a long lighter one. But, you gain a second strike capability that others, like the Kahr, don't have. Confused yet?

Black Majik
January 5, 2006, 06:32 PM
Yup everyone gave good advice. To expand on SGT127's post, while Kahrs and Glocks are often referred to as a DAO gun, they dont have second strike capability because they are striker fired.

MCgunner
January 5, 2006, 07:57 PM
I like a long DAO of 8-12 lbs. It matches my DA revolvers petty much, though smoother on an auto because you're not turning a cylinder with the trigger. It's safe and always ready, no safeties to worry about, and accurate once you learn how to shoot it. It's a good system for CCW carry, but not for a target gun. Different jobs, different tools. Games and paper targets rarely relate to the real world.

P95Carry
January 5, 2006, 10:16 PM
The Rohrbaugh R9 has perhaps the slickest pull of any DAO's.

It is quite a long travel but - smooth as butter all the way (due mainly to a very clever design) - and, a mere 7lbs!!!!

SSN Vet
January 6, 2006, 09:44 AM
Yet another unfamiliar term....

trigger reset?

second strike capability?

Anyone care to help me out?

MCgunner
January 6, 2006, 09:54 AM
Yet another unfamiliar term....

trigger reset?


Anyone care to help me out?

Point on the return of the trigger where the sear mechanism re-engages the hammer to fire another shot, or something like that. I'm not good with creating definitions. :D

second strike capability?

Ability to create another hammer strike on the same loaded round. IOW, if the primer fails to fire (I don't know if I've ever had a centerfire do that), you can just pull the trigger again to strike the same primer. On some of the striker fired guns like the Glock, the striker is preloaded, partially cocked. Once it drops, the slide has to cycles to reset it for another shot. Not so on a DAO that simply cycles a hammer.

SSN Vet
January 6, 2006, 11:05 AM
So let me see if I have it right...

in the rare event of a quality manufactured round failing to 'pop'...say in a Kahr KP9 or CW9....you have to cycle the battery by hand to eject the 'dud' and chamber the next round.

where on a pistol with the second strike ability, you can just give the same round another go by pulling the trigger again (after it clears the reset point.....and some weapons have two trigger reset points).

Have I got it straight?

P95Carry
January 6, 2006, 12:07 PM
SSN - yep - you got it :)

benEzra
January 6, 2006, 04:34 PM
There is such a thing as a DAO revolver, which is merely a revolver that cannot be thumb-cocked. The trigger pull on a DAO semiauto is a lot like shooting a revolver double-action for every shot.

I like DA/SA's myself; first shot is a long, fairly heavy double-action pull that reduces the risk of an accidental discharge, but once you start shooting, you have short resets and light, crisp letoff for potentially better accuracy.

SSN Vet
January 6, 2006, 05:11 PM
Is there a 9x19 (or bigger) pistol out there as small as a Kahr KP/CW that is DA/SA?

I like the idea of a stiffer 1st pull for safety and light pulls for accuracy.

I'm leaning heavilly towards the Kahr CW9 for CCW at this point......9" wide!!

I've read the DA only trigger pull is only 6-1/2 lbs. That doesn't sound to heavy!

I have med. size hands with shorter & "chunkier" fingers...so I'm thinking the narrow handle on the Kahr will work well.

I can get a CW9 for $400 NIB off the GA network.....but no local gun shops near me deal with them.

rockstar.esq
January 6, 2006, 05:13 PM
Only thing I might add to the above is that generally speaking, a DA/SA auto will have a decocking lever on it. Whereas either the DAO or the SAO generally don't. You'll know that lever by it's generally longish throw. Aside from Sig's it's generally the lever closest to the rear of the weapon. The second strike option has always seemed like an unnecessary dodad on a defense piece as any dud I'd encounter would be subjected to a clearance drill. That being said, on a plinker I'd welcome the convience. One last point to consider, beware of replacement grips as I have found that many times they bind the decocking lever when said lever is frame mounted! My friend has one such situation on a Taurus PT99 with Pachmyer grips.

MCgunner
January 6, 2006, 05:31 PM
I've never had a factory round dud. I have had "high primers" caused by a worn hand priming tool on handloads. I quickly learned, after that experience, to check the primer height of my loads as a matter of routine in my reloading process and it has never happened again.

Double strike capability is not something to make you want one gun over another IMHO. The only rounds I've found needed it were rimfire. The cheap Federals I buy sometimes dud on me because the priming compound isn't consistent in the rim, another reason I'd never use a .22 for primary self defense, as if the weakness of the round wasn't enough reason.

Mainsail
January 6, 2006, 05:49 PM
So let me see if I have it right...

in the rare event of a quality manufactured round failing to 'pop'...say in a Kahr KP9 or CW9....you have to cycle the battery by hand to eject the 'dud' and chamber the next round.

where on a pistol with the second strike ability, you can just give the same round another go by pulling the trigger again (after it clears the reset point.....and some weapons have two trigger reset points).

Have I got it straight?

Sheesh, not only did you 'get it', you explained it back better than it was explained to you to begin with! :D

Walt Sherrill
January 6, 2006, 09:31 PM
Is there a 9x19 (or bigger) pistol out there as small as a Kahr KP/CW that is DA/SA?The new polymer CZ RAMI is pretty close, and can be carried hammer down, on half-cock, or cocked and locked. (It has a firing pin block that makes the hammer down/half-cock carry options safe.)

They're just starting to get into the pipeline, so it may be a while before you see one. Same basic gun as the CZ RAMI, but thinner and lighter.

The RAMI in steel is available in 9mm and .40; I'm assuming the polymer model will be in the same calibers.

benEzra
January 6, 2006, 09:41 PM
Is there a 9x19 (or bigger) pistol out there as small as a Kahr KP/CW that is DA/SA?

I like the idea of a stiffer 1st pull for safety and light pulls for accuracy.

I'm leaning heavilly towards the Kahr CW9 for CCW at this point......9" wide!!

I've read the DA only trigger pull is only 6-1/2 lbs. That doesn't sound to heavy!

I have med. size hands with shorter & "chunkier" fingers...so I'm thinking the narrow handle on the Kahr will work well.

I can get a CW9 for $400 NIB off the GA network.....but no local gun shops near me deal with them.
Smith & Wesson CS9 is DA/SA (a relative of mine has one, and I've shot it; really nice, accurate, and reliable).

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?catalogId=10001&storeId=10001&productId=12755&langId=-1&isFirearm=Y
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/103887_thumb.jpg

An S&W 3913LS is slightly bigger, but not all that much. Still easy to conceal and very, very accurate and reliable.

http://www.smith-wesson.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/CatalogSearchResultView?storeId=10001&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&pageSize=10&published=1&beginIndex=0&resultType=2&attributeName1=Model&attributeValue1=3913LS&attributeValueType1=STRING&attributeValueOperator1=EQUAL&isFirearm=Y
http://www.smith-wesson.com/wcsstore/SmWesson/upload/images/firearms/108290_thumb.jpg

Both guns also come with flat-based magazines (at least the 3913 does, I think the CS9 does too), which make them more concealable than the finger-rest magazine bases shown.

I believe the SIG P229 is also a single-stack 9mm, but I may have the model number wrong.

MCgunner
January 6, 2006, 10:54 PM
I had the hots big time for a 3913 for a while, but then the P11 KT came out and I fell in love with it. The 3913 is a very good gun, though, and oh, so sexy to my eye.

Mudboy
January 7, 2006, 05:56 PM
(edited)
Double strike capability is not something to make you want one gun over another IMHO. The only rounds I've found needed it were rimfire. The cheap Federals I buy sometimes dud on me because the priming compound isn't consistent in the rim, another reason I'd never use a .22 for primary self defense, as if the weakness of the round wasn't enough reason.

I believe that having double strike capability was a requirement when the US military was selecting a sidearm to replace the 1911. It may not be something to make YOU want one gun over another, but it IS important to some people who carry firearms for a living.

gunfan
January 7, 2006, 06:07 PM
I like to "stage" my DA hammers (DA/SA ignition systems) with DAO-type revolvers, I still like the "feel" of "staging" the DAO setup. Any competent gunsmith should have the capability of accomplishing this.

By "staging" I mean having the ability to bring the hammer to the "edge" of the sear's "breaking point", thus sustaining the capability of maintaining a sight picture with this mode of operation.

Scott

Inline_6
January 7, 2006, 06:10 PM
I believe that having double strike capability was a requirement when the US military was selecting a sidearm to replace the 1911. It may not be something to make YOU want one gun over another, but it IS important to some people who carry firearms for a living.
Ya know... when I read that was in the RFP for the new joint combat pistol I kind of scratched my head. In 11 years of qualifying on the M9 we have never been taught to re-strike a dud. I for one will be cycling the slide if I get a "click" when I need a "bang". Second strike was something I always heard the DA/SA and DAO crowd use to try and tell me why their guns were superior to my SA 1911/BHP type weapons. I just laughed then, and still do now. Has anyone ever heard of someone being saved by re-striking a chambered round?

Only thing I might add to the above is that generally speaking, a DA/SA auto will have a decocking lever on it. Whereas either the DAO or the SAO generally don't.

Depends on the make/model. For many (S&W, Beretta, Ruger) the safety is the decocker.

1911Tuner
January 7, 2006, 07:22 PM
Double-Action Only is a little misleading. Traditionally, double-action has meant that the gun can be fired either by trigger-cocking or by manually cocking the hammer before pulling the trigger. If the gun can only be fired one way...regardless of whether it's by pulling the trigger to cock and release
the hammer...or by cocking the hammer and pulling the trigger...it's technically a single-action. I suppose that they could be referred to as
"Trigger-Cocking Only" pistols, but that would only serve to confuse everybody...and it wouldn't sound as cool and tactical and all.

MCgunner
January 7, 2006, 07:35 PM
I believe that having double strike capability was a requirement when the US military was selecting a sidearm to replace the 1911. It may not be something to make YOU want one gun over another, but it IS important to some people who carry firearms for a living.

Seems to me the "pros" should be learning tap, rack, bang drills. And, considering our boys in harms way might be getting issued 50 year old ammo stored since Korea, they might need to worry more about a second strike capability, though it ain't that difficult to cock the hammer again on a 1911.:rolleyes:

I do not, however, carry old ammo and I've never had a gun need a second strike and if it went "click" I'd automatically out of habit rack the slide cause I'd figure somehow, a round didn't feed, since my rounds always go bang.

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