Latest youth violence unnerves France


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K-Romulus
January 5, 2006, 05:43 PM
Not sure if people knew about this incident. I myself just heard a BBC story about it. The show interviewed a young French woman said that she is PO'd that the train with 600 passengers just ssat there and let these 30-some teenagers get away with what they did.

The same BBC show said that French talk shows were ablaze with people complaining about how the government failed to protect the passengers, and that maybe a new way of thinking was needed among the French people (i.e., actually defending themselves or others in need without waiting for the govt to do it for them) :rolleyes: . . .

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002721144_train05.html?syndication=rss

Thursday, January 5, 2006 - 12:00 AM

Latest youth violence unnerves France

By Sebastian Rotella
Los Angeles Times

PARIS — France confronted a new incident of violence Wednesday, a rampage that terrorized passengers as their train rolled east along the Riviera on New Year's Day.

The ordeal became front-page news Wednesday in the nation still on edge from riots in immigrant-dominated urban areas in November. Authorities were criticized for leaving about 600 passengers at the mercy of young people who robbed and sexually assaulted victims for at least 25 minutes as the train traveled from Nice to Marseilles.

The young people were among about 100 police had rounded up earlier after incidents of vandalism in Nice and put on the train to send them home to communities near Marseilles and Avignon.

Passengers tried to barricade themselves in compartments as assailants trashed the train and threatened to kill victims who used cellphones to call for help, authorities said. After police boarded the train in Les Arcs-Draguignan station, shaken passengers took refuge in a cafe, a waitress said Wednesday.

"They had tears in their eyes," said Linda Gasmi in statements reported by French media. "They said women were molested. They mentioned sexual aggression."

Police identified four victims and arrested six suspects for robbery, making death threats and sexual molestation. Witness accounts suggested more assailants and victims were involved but could not be identified.

Two suspects are 19-year-old Moroccan immigrants living in Avignon. Four others are juveniles, who in accord with French law, were not identified.

Police said the national railroad company, SNCF, had assigned a four-man private security team to watch the suspects when the train left Nice. But the guards got off a few stops later.

Many of the young people, all male, were drunk and belligerent when police herded them onto the train in Nice about 6 a.m. Sunday, witnesses said.

Some had been detained and released the previous night for allegedly vandalizing a train arriving from Marseilles for the New Year's Eve celebrations, authorities said. Groups of young people from tough neighborhoods with large North African immigrant populations were drawn to Nice by low-cost holiday fares.

The high-level, if slow, response by senior officials reflected lingering worries about crime, youth gangs and potential new strife in immigrant neighborhoods.

President Jacques Chirac expressed indignation Wednesday. Interior Minister Nicolas Sarkozy promised to create a national railroad police, expanding an existing force that has cut transport crime in the Paris area. Security aboard national trains is handled by the private security force.

"I have asked for a very precise investigation into what happened and who failed in their responsibility," Sarkozy said on TV Wednesday night. "It's not a republic and not a democratic society if you are scared to take the bus, the subway or the train."

The opposition Socialist Party accused the government of downplaying the unrest. Jack Lang, a Socialist leader, said the attack on the train passengers "shows the contrast between the official propaganda intended to lull the French to sleep and the sad reality of worsening insecurity nationwide."

Troubles continued even after authorities made arrests and permitted the train to leave Les Arcs-Draguignan about 9 a.m. Sunday with police aboard, authorities said. Police arrested three more suspects for possession of drugs and weapons.

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Glock Glockler
January 5, 2006, 05:55 PM
Every time an immigrant crosses the French border they get stronger:evil:

Pilgrim
January 5, 2006, 05:56 PM
Police said the national railroad company, SNCF, had assigned a four-man private security team to watch the suspects when the train left Nice. But the guards got off a few stops later.
But, but, they promised to behave.

Standing Wolf
January 5, 2006, 06:05 PM
It's not a republic and not a democratic society if you are scared to take the bus, the subway or the train.

Perhaps it's a thugocracy.

shermacman
January 5, 2006, 06:16 PM
It's not a republic and not a democratic society if you are scared to take the bus, the subway or the train.
Yup, this will wake up the Franco-Socialists. The sheeple will become too afraid to take public transportation when they leave their public housing to go to their public health care providers on their days off from their public government "jobs".

sturmruger
January 5, 2006, 06:39 PM
I read about this over on Drudge.

I kind of wonder what would have happened on a US train. I like to think they would have gotten the crap beat out of them, but taking on 30 punks is a big job.

CAnnoneer
January 5, 2006, 06:49 PM
What an excellent textbook example of why "the .gov will protect you" mantra is so deeply flawed. In this case, and as often as not, it is the gov that created/exacerbated the problem in the first place.

Also, since when do perps under arrest get to be shipped unattended through public transportation? France knows best?

Sindawe
January 5, 2006, 07:01 PM
I too read about this a few days ago. The people of France could do well to take a few lessons from Mr. Goetz (http://www.heroism.org/class/1980/goetz.htm).

CletusFudd
January 5, 2006, 07:12 PM
I read about this over on Drudge.

I kind of wonder what would have happened on a US train. I like to think they would have gotten the crap beat out of them, but taking on 30 punks is a big job.

I think if you cut the liver out of one the rest would get really quiet.

joab
January 5, 2006, 07:14 PM
20 to 1 odds in their favor and the French still get their asses kicked?
Is it possible that an entire country recieve the Darwin award?

hksw
January 5, 2006, 07:18 PM
IMO, if enough of the thugs, say a couple hundred, get together and dress up with knee high shiny black boots, they should be able to take over the country.

Sindawe
January 5, 2006, 07:23 PM
IMO, if enough of the thugs, say a couple hundred, get together and dress up with knee high shiny black boots, they should be able to take over the country.Yea, but then we'd have to liberate France again. And while taking Pointe-Du-Hoc is great fun on the PC, its not something I'd want to do in real life.I think if you cut the liver out of one the rest would get really quiet. My thoughts exactly.

Lupinus
January 5, 2006, 07:27 PM
Sad, truly sad and the idiots that sat there watching girls get "sexualy molested" (whatever that is under the definition of french law, not sure if it is just rubbing or something or if it is actual rape, either way still bout as bad) deserve to have the crap kicked out of them along with the punks that did it. You try raping a girl in front of me I know her or not and Im pulling the bolt cutters out cutting something out and then beating you into a bloddy pile of goo with them.

Janitor
January 5, 2006, 07:36 PM
Im pulling the bolt cutters out cutting something out and then beating you into a bloddy pile of goo with them.
You would make a horrible Frenchman.

(You're welcome)
-

Lupinus
January 5, 2006, 07:47 PM
You would make a horrible Frenchman.
I hope to god

bill2
January 5, 2006, 08:11 PM
While I don't wish this sort of thing on anyone, part of me hopes it continues until the French people (not the government, they don't care) will wake up and realize what it takes to confront this kind of behavior. and that doesn't mean hoping that someone from the government will come along and rescue you. and maybe the rest of Europe will do the same. Just imagine - gun shows in Europe that we could travel abroad and see. and they might be better than the ones we have here!

hksw
January 5, 2006, 09:25 PM
While I don't wish this sort of thing on anyone, part of me hopes it continues until the French people (not the government, they don't care) will wake up and realize what it takes to confront this kind of behavior.

I'm sorry to say this but that was the first thing I thought. Some folks need to be pushed farther than others before they start pushing back.

DontBurnMyFlag
January 5, 2006, 10:42 PM
its only gonna get worse. :fire: then it will spill over and attempt to enter America. then it will be pushed back by members of THR. :D

Seriously. Stand up and do something. Damn, Im sure in those 600 people there was someone who wanted to do something but was afraid the police would arrest him and call him a racist.

Pilgrim
January 5, 2006, 11:22 PM
You try raping a girl in front of me I know her or not and Im pulling the bolt cutters out cutting something out and then beating you into a bloddy pile of goo with them.
Be careful, kids. I suggested something similar for American gang bangers in Bakersfield, CA and a moderator edited out my post.

Pilgrim

XLMiguel
January 5, 2006, 11:38 PM
Sheep are for shearing.:barf:

Yet another example of the hypocracy of the socialist elite - too gutless to fight for thier own lifes, but want to call some underpaid civil servant to do it for them. Don't like weapons, but the first thing they do when they're in troble is call for someone with a gun to come save them.:barf::barf:

longeyes
January 5, 2006, 11:46 PM
Just a little of the old ultra-violence, my brothers.:evil:

John Hicks
January 6, 2006, 12:33 AM
IMO, if enough of the thugs, say a couple hundred, get together and dress up with knee high shiny black boots, they should be able to take over the country.

Especially if they spoke german. :evil:

svtruth
January 6, 2006, 11:10 AM
riot over EU regs on cheese, but sit by while thugs sexually assault women on a train.
Tres gallant.

TheEgg
January 6, 2006, 02:30 PM
Don't feel too smug.

Over the holiday's I saw a video of a bank robbery here in the US. (sorry, I don't remember where.) Anyway, there were several people in line at the teller window when the robber walked up, pulled a gun and leapt over the counter. He stuffed a bag with a lot of money, jumped back over the counter, and walked out.

What stunned me was that the people in line just stood there. They did not scream, holler, run, hide, duck down, nothing. They just stood there, like sheep. They watched, from just a couple of feet away, a man pull a gun and commit armed robbery.

I can't understand why they did not at least RUN!!!!!!!! After all, they did not know that this guys next act might be to eliminate all witnesses, or take hostages, or what. Instead they stood there, waiting for whatever the robber had in mind for them, seemingly unable to react in any way.

I think we have a very large number of sheep in this country that would have reacted in exactly the same passive manner as the French people did on that train.

longeyes
January 6, 2006, 02:44 PM
This is already, in scope, a military problem, not a problem of standing up on an individual basis, though obviously national RKBA rights would mitigate the threat. France needs to remove the velvet glove; one hopes there's an iron fist inside.

cosine
January 6, 2006, 02:48 PM
Perhaps it's a thugocracy.

Hehe, Preacherman won't beat that one! :D

Seriously, though, it's really saddening that this happened in France. The French have come to the point where they expect "mommy government" to save them. 600 people, and they can't subdue some young mob violence themselves? That is really disappointing.

Pilgrim
January 6, 2006, 02:55 PM
I can't understand why they did not at least RUN!!!!!!!! After all, they did not know that this guys next act might be to eliminate all witnesses, or take hostages, or what. Instead they stood there, waiting for whatever the robber had in mind for them, seemingly unable to react in any way.
Understandable prey reaction. Sit quiet, don't attract attention to one's self.

Pilgrim

longeyes
January 6, 2006, 03:00 PM
Seriously, though, it's really saddening that this happened in France. The French have come to the point where they expect "mommy government" to save them. 600 people, and they can't subdue some young mob violence themselves? That is really disappointing.

The people terrorized had something to lose, wanted to live--unlike the punks. Of course that gives the thugs the edge, even if outnumbered. People who want annihilation should be given their wish.

Shalako
January 6, 2006, 06:05 PM
I'm left wondering what I would do if on that train.

First of all, look for a weapon. Bare fists don't go too far against multiple assailants. I think maybe a handrail could be pried off, a fire extinguisher, some electrical wiring (garrotte), the food car might have a broomstick and a steakknife to sharpen it, heck I could take out at least one dirtbag with a rolling food cart.

I'm no Steven Segal, but I wouldn't just sit there with a pannicked look on my face.

Tactics would be key so you did not get overpowered or surrounded. Maybe use steath and ambush? (Now I'm sounding like hardin or whatever his name is..)

Then would it be worth it try to rally a few others to take back the train with me, or would the other passengers feel more threatend by my courage and report me as the aggressor....? This is France afterall...

longeyes
January 6, 2006, 06:34 PM
This is not a tactical CQB issue, this is a cultural, political, and police power issue. Theoretical scenarios of whether you're going to hurl fire extinguishers or smother thugs with street cushions or break windows and use glass shards for daggers seem, to me, to miss the point. Want to stop it? Go to where these savages live and punish creatively.

lbmii
January 6, 2006, 06:35 PM
I don't know guys.

Yeah the French do need a good spanking.

But the fact is that the vast majority of people in any country would behave in a similar way if placed in the same situation. Cower and look the other way. Hope the wolves donít pick you out of the crowd (herd).

There are two types of people in this world; Weasels and Weasel Slappers. Which are you?

longeyes
January 6, 2006, 06:56 PM
Young, strong, highly aggressive thugs, probably fueled by "stimulants," are always going to be able to intimidate the good citizen, even if outnumbered. No surprise there. This is, at that level, a RKBA issue. We on this forum, of all people, should understand the importance of The Equalizer--thank you, Sam Colt!--and realize the moral here: without firearms available to the citizen at large the bad guys are going to have a serious advantage. If we're going to bash the French, let's bash them for their gun laws, not for being wimps.

CAnnoneer
January 6, 2006, 07:11 PM
+1 longeyes

with the caveat that there is a correlation between excessive gun laws and the wimpery of the general populace, and therefore the French, and all other eurosocialists, need some spanking on both issues. A gun with a non-existent will to use it is about as an ineffectual combination as the will to use a non-existent gun.

Shalako
January 6, 2006, 07:15 PM
Well, to me, without the RKBA, the problem becomes 'what do you use to fight with instead of a gun?'

I'm in much the same predicament as those poor French bastrds. I dont have a CA CCW permit, and sometimes ride the public transit lightrail. Believe me there are thugs full of drugs on there too. If I saw some gal getting molested I'd have to step up. I don't like my chances though.

If the topic boils down to 'they need RKBA' well then no kidding. What you do NOW when threatened seems as important as long term planning to restore your rights.

If given a choice, I'd prefer to just carry my newly customized 1911 and call it good.

longeyes
January 6, 2006, 08:29 PM
France should be an illuminating picture of what things could be here, and what we could face, if the lefties ever manage to take away our ability to defend ourselves.

A few armed people on that train would have ended that problem very quickly.

ka50
January 6, 2006, 08:33 PM
They need to expedite the cure for violent agression by about 1200fps.

Old Dog
January 6, 2006, 08:39 PM
One thing I find interesting about THR is that not a day goes by without some degree of France-bashing ... or Britain-bashing ... or Canada-bashing ...

How many of you have actually spent any time in France?

I have; I've also taken the train between Marseille and Nice a few times ... I find, as a general rule, people behave far worse on public transportation in this country than anywhere else I've been (well, there is a lot of groping goin' on in the trains in Japan) ...

TheEgg's statements:Don't feel too smug.andI think we have a very large number of sheep in this country that would have reacted in exactly the same passive manner as the French people did on that train.were right on target. France doesn't have the monopoly on "sheeple" just as the U.S. doesn't have the monopoly on bystanders who will courageously get involved if bad behavior or criminal acts begin ...

cosine
January 6, 2006, 08:42 PM
Listen to longeyes and CAnnoner. What they wrote is a much better aspect to focus on about this than what I wrote in my last post.

Shalako
January 6, 2006, 09:11 PM
I guess I see this as more of a SHTF type thread than an RKBA thread or a bash France thread.

These types of things happen and there just might not be a citizen with a CCW there to step up. It would be hard to take on the hooligans by yourself without some sort of serious gumption, training, or forethought.

Ryder
January 6, 2006, 11:25 PM
Run and scream in a bank robbery? They're after money, not lives. Odds strongly favor no shot being fired. The odds of a person being shot are even more remote. Check the stats.

The mere sight of a gun doesn't cause me to run and scream either. I'll take action if I perceive danger but that doesn't include getting shot in the back running and screaming.

In a Harlan, Kentuky bank robbery last month two customers held the bankrobber at gunpoint until police arrived. They must have been "black sheep"? :D

CAnnoneer
January 6, 2006, 11:48 PM
How many of you have actually spent any time in France?

Do we also have to have spent time living in Nazi Germany, Bolshevik Russia, Imperial Japan, Communist China, or Khmer Cambodia before we open up on them too?

While some criticisms are over the top, the French have a lot to answer for, not the least being setting the tone for our homegrown leftists and thereby endangering our own freedoms.

dpesec
January 7, 2006, 12:16 AM
Yea, but then we'd have to liberate France again. And while taking Pointe-Du-Hoc is great fun on the PC, its not something I'd want to do in real life. My thoughts exactly.
Since these are thugs not soldiers, I suspect they'd wet their pants and run away.

mountainclmbr
January 7, 2006, 12:23 AM
I think this is really good news. In a few months there will be cheap french rifles on the surplus market. Never fired, only dropped once!

Headless Thompson Gunner
January 7, 2006, 12:34 AM
I read about this over on Drudge.

I kind of wonder what would have happened on a US train. I like to think they would have gotten the crap beat out of them, but taking on 30 punks is a big job.
I don't think you have to take on all 30. All it takes is a prevailing attitude that beligerence will not be tolerated.

The French people are entirely unwilling to stand up to these thugs. The thugs (and the average citizens) all know it.

TheEgg
January 7, 2006, 11:46 PM
Run and scream in a bank robbery? They're after money, not lives. Odds strongly favor no shot being fired. The odds of a person being shot are even more remote. Check the stats.

The mere sight of a gun doesn't cause me to run and scream either. I'll take action if I perceive danger but that doesn't include getting shot in the back running and screaming.

In a Harlan, Kentuky bank robbery last month two customers held the bankrobber at gunpoint until police arrived. They must have been "black sheep"?

I guess I did not make my point clear -- I was stunned that they did NOTHING, just stood there slack jawed with drool running down their chin. I am sure that they were contemplating the statistics about shots fired in bank robberies, just as you apparently would.:rolleyes:
__________________

Ryder
January 8, 2006, 12:51 AM
I don't have to contemplate things I already know and I know that in general there is "NOTHING" an unarmed person should do in that situation unless they want to be the victim of the first shot. There are exceptions but standing in the middle of a big open room it's hard for me to imagine one. Maybe hide behind another person?

I agree with you that they were sheep ripe for shearing simply because because they were unarmed but they were not totally without protection. The badguy would do life in prison or get the death penalty if he killed them (if caught and convicted). Most people believe that is protection enough to gamble their lives on, unlike us.

Waitone
January 8, 2006, 08:27 AM
I don't consider it <insert country of choice>-bashing. Those countries have merely arrived at the end of the road the US now travels. We would be idiotic to ignore their experiences.

oh blanky
January 8, 2006, 08:35 AM
The French culture of surrender.

1 old 0311
January 8, 2006, 08:39 AM
What would happen in this Country???????? Does the phrase "Lets Roll" ring a bell????????

Kevin

joab
January 8, 2006, 08:45 AM
France doesn't have the monopoly on "sheeple" just as the U.S. doesn't have the monopoly on bystanders who will courageously get involved if bad behavior or criminal acts begin ...40 passengers on Flight 93 and 600 French citizens do little to support that theory

LAK
January 8, 2006, 09:57 AM
Ah; the joys of multiculture.
-----------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

swampsniper
January 8, 2006, 01:10 PM
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