Ever ask your rifle what it "did" during the war?


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Shrinkmd
January 6, 2006, 10:03 AM
That NY Times article about the silliness in Maine got me thinking about it. Ever look at your milsurp recievers dated 1930 whatever and the dinged up stock and wonder what its been through? Was it used to shoot anyone, how many original owners, did the other side capture it, etc? I doubt that the original owner could have ever imagined them sitting in our safes, going to the range, getting cleaned with Hoppe's Elite, benchrests...

As far as Mosins go, I wonder if mine helped defeat the Germans, or did it take part in forced collectivism and the famines before the war. Or both? Or did some guard in Far East russia have it leaning against his guardpost for the whole war and it kept warm by the fire. Unlike the K31's there is obviously a much higher chance that reciever did "something" during the war, and there is no tag under the buttstock to write to anyone about it.

Makes you wonder, eh?

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entropy
January 6, 2006, 10:24 AM
we wonder about that all the time over at www.russian-mosin-nagant.com ; I think my 1930 Tula M91/30 must have either been an inside guard duty rifle, or an Arms Room queen,because it is in impeccable shape, I've dinged it more handling it than it was prior to me buying it.

My 1899 Izhevsk M91 with SA stamp, oh what tales it could tell! :) Probably served in at least two wars, and possibly as many as six! (Russo-Japanese, WWI, 1918 Finnish Wars of independence and subsequent Karelian campaigns, The Winter War, The Continuation War, and WWII.) She still can dish out decent accuracy 107 years later, though I shoot her sparingly, as befits her age and dignity.;)

Rembrandt
January 6, 2006, 10:31 AM
Ever look at your milsurp recievers dated 1930 whatever and the dinged up stock and wonder what its been through? Was it used to shoot anyone, how many original owners, did the other side capture it, etc?
My son brought this British made 1873 Martini back from Afghanistan last year, possibly one of the rifles used in the many battles for the Khyber Pass. If only guns could talk....found it in a local market in Kabul. Who knows how many Turks, British, Afghany's, Russians, Pakistany's were shot or used it.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/Rembrandt51/Martini5.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v405/Rembrandt51/Martini6.jpg

Preacherman
January 6, 2006, 11:10 AM
Yes, and with all the Yugoslavian M48's, SKS's, etc. flooding into the USA, one does wonder how many of them participated in the recent unpleasantness there, and how many were used to massacre the innocent... Of course, the same could be said of many German WW2 weapons!

kjeff50cal
January 6, 2006, 11:27 AM
I have a 1942 MN 91/30 that from the looks of it may have a part of the Soviet infantry tactic of if the soldier with the gun falls the one without a rifle picks it up and continues the charge. It definately has been "at war". And I would not have it any other way. I think if it could talk it would speak volumes about war and peace.

kjeff50cal

carlrodd
January 6, 2006, 11:29 AM
i asked my sks if it had ever had a confirmed kill and i was told to f**k off.

Working Man
January 6, 2006, 11:38 AM
That would make a great book.... a story told from the POV of an old war gun.
What it has seen and done. Who has used it when and where.

Any writers here want to take up that torch?

Firehand
January 6, 2006, 11:39 AM
First milsurp I ever bought was a #4 Mk1 Enfield made in 1943. Can't tell condition at the end of the war as it had obviously been FTR'd, but there's a row of small, faint 'x' marks along the bottom edge of the stock; I think someone was keeping count.

Rembrandt
January 6, 2006, 12:10 PM
That would make a great book.... a story told from the POV of an old war gun. What it has seen and done. Who has used it when and where. Any writers here want to take up that torch?

Jimmy Stewart's movie "Winchester 73" was an attempt at following the life of the rifle through it's various owners.

A historically accurate movie or book on a military firearm wouldn't make it in today's Hollywood....all violence and killing with no female lead roles or love stories for the chick flick audience.

Zundfolge
January 6, 2006, 12:16 PM
I wonder where my VZ24 has been ... what its seen ... what battles (if any) its fought.

Of course none of the numbers on mine match so parts of it have probably done more than others.

dolanp
January 6, 2006, 12:46 PM
I think my K31 got kicked around by a bunch of hobnailed Swiss boots. :D

ball3006
January 6, 2006, 01:12 PM
I have a Sino-Soviet SKS that, by all indications, is a Vietnam war bringback, no import mark, fairly crude replacement stock........all matching though......chris3

benEzra
January 6, 2006, 01:15 PM
My M39 is built on a 1905 M1891 receiver, still embossed with the czar's imperial crest, so it was likely in Finland when the Finns broke away; did it see action in Russian service 1905-1917? Once in Finn hands, it probably served in the Winter War and the Continuation War. Was rebarreled in 1942 at VKT and converted to M39 configuration, and appears to have seen lots of action after that, by the condition of the stock. At some point, it appears to have been carried by a Finn soldier with the initials "E.T.", since those initials are artistically scratched into the rear sight base underneath the sight. Possibly helped kick the Nazis out of Finland in 1944-45.

Is there any way to track down the name of an individual Finnish soldier who was issued a particular rifle, by the rifle's serial number, i.e. does Finland even retain those records? I'd love to contact "E.T." or his surviving descendants and get the rifle's post-1942 stories.

Mad Bodhi
January 6, 2006, 06:34 PM
My 1942 Winchester Garand has definetly put foot to ass for it's country.You can tell because the real badasses don't brag about it and my Winnie doesn't say a word:evil: .

Roadkill
January 6, 2006, 06:47 PM
My possibly most "involved" gun is a 1917 DWM Gw98. It probably was used in WWI, has Weimar stamps from the 20's (street fighting, ect), 1930s era, has a S42 Mauser rebuild stampand the sights replaced, probably used in invasion of Poland and France, a friend was drafted in 1943, he told me they used the Gw98s for basic traing, then they were issued to civilians for home defense.

rk

ewb45acp
January 6, 2006, 07:11 PM
I've got a Garand, a 1942 Colt "U S property" 1911, and a nazi marked P-35 (hi-power) and I think about that every time I have one of them out.

Rembrandt: That Martini is terrific. Makes me want to go watch ZULU again.

trickyasafox
January 6, 2006, 08:02 PM
i have no milsurps so no tales there, but my fathers colt python was stolen in 86 and returned to us in 87 or 88. turned up in a drug bust and we got it back. i'd like to know what happened during its short life of crime.

Rockrivr1
January 6, 2006, 08:12 PM
When I did a serial number search on my CMP Garand it came back as being manufactured in 1943. Whenever I bring it to the range I always wonder what the rifle would tell me of it's history if it could talk. Who knows it might be stewing with history.

chuckles
January 6, 2006, 08:42 PM
ewb45acp wrote:Rembrandt: That Martini is terrific. Makes me want to go watch ZULU again.
Or GUNGA DIN since it was A-Stan.:cool:

chuckles
January 6, 2006, 08:45 PM
My 1861 Springfield just cries when I ask.:(

spacemanspiff
January 6, 2006, 08:50 PM
i'm not really curious if my yugo-wiped-clean k98 killed anyone. what i'd like to know is if the axis solder who was carrying it gave it up willingly.

though the yugos wiped most everything off the action, it still has 's42/g' stamped on it, according to my research that makes its origin the Obendorf factory in 1935.

Hardtarget
January 6, 2006, 09:02 PM
I have a 1903 A2, a K98, a 303 Enfield, and a .30 carbine. I've always wondered. If you only have one milsurp, you have to wonder where its been and what happened during those travels. Fun to think about...might not have been fun to be there!
Mark.

Trebor
January 6, 2006, 10:01 PM
I don't have to wonder about one of my rifles that much. My Finn 28/30 has shrapneal embedded in the stock. I don't think the previous user made out very well...

CZ-100
January 6, 2006, 10:48 PM
My 1861 Springfield just cries when I ask.:(

Kinda like my 1863 Springfield... :-(

M.E.Eldridge
January 6, 2006, 11:23 PM
I've always wondered about mine. I've a 91/30 made in '43 at Izhevsk so I assume it was issued, wheteher it saw combat, who knows and its been re-arsenaled.

White Horseradish
January 6, 2006, 11:49 PM
I've got a Type 53 (Chinese M44 Mosin) It's real beat up and looks like it spent a lot of time someplace real humid. Jungles of Vietnam come to mind...

JohnKSa
January 7, 2006, 12:22 AM
A collector friend of mine bought a batch of K98 rifles from one of the big wholesalers using his C&R and found that one had a bullet hole in the stock and what appeared to be bloodstains on the wood.

I've got a Swedish Lahti that did some time as a police firearm after its military service. No notches on the grips. ;)

armoredman
January 7, 2006, 12:25 AM
I would love to know the history behind my Babushka Thunderboomer, aka the 1943 Mosin M38, rearsenalled in a newer M44 stock, counterbored, so lots of wear in the field, but all matching numbers....hurried stampings, rough finishing, built in the dark days of the war...
I'd ask her, but I speak very little Russian!

f4t9r
January 7, 2006, 12:28 AM
Ever ask your rifle what it "did" during the war?

I did and it said if it told me , it would have to kill me !!!!!!!!
so I do not ask anymore

mcooper
January 7, 2006, 12:28 AM
It matters not what these rifles did in their past
except that if they were used in the oppresion of freedom
we should remember that.
And vow that it will now be used in the defense of freedom.
It is not the gun or what it was used for, that is done.
It is what we do with it if ever a day comes that we might need to use it.

wingnutx
January 7, 2006, 02:11 AM
I think my e-tool once beat a guy to death.

It had help, though.

Beetle Bailey
January 7, 2006, 03:17 AM
My 1943 Springfield Armory M1 is my favorite to play this game with because, well, it's American.

Finn M39s: My "commie killers" :D

Soviet M91/30: My "fascist killer" :D

German 98k: This is where I am in agreement with mcooper. This rifle is a RC re-build, but the receiver was made in 1936 so it could well have oppressed people all across Europe before being carried into battle against the Soviets. I jokingly tell my friends she spent 60 years in a Russian salt mine to pay for her crimes but really it's only what you do with the gun now that matters.

I had a notion to maybe try my hand at hunting with the Mauser, since I've gotten a few two inch groups with her, but a friend said a scoped rifle might be better since a clean kill is necessary.

While the rifle is in good shape and shoots straight, I have others that would be more suitable for defending freedom.

With this rifle in particular, I just try to share it with fellow shooters so that the rifle can be involved in something positive in her "second life."

losangeles
January 7, 2006, 04:32 AM
My Schmidt Rubin K-31 looks like it had lived a few weeks in mud back in the day.

kentucky_smith
January 7, 2006, 09:37 AM
MY K98 asked for cigarettes and a beer...

kentucky_smith
January 7, 2006, 09:39 AM
German 98k: This is where I am in agreement with mcooper. This rifle is a RC re-build, but the receiver was made in 1936 so it could well have oppressed people all across Europe before being carried into battle against the Soviets. I jokingly tell my friends she spent 60 years in a Russian salt mine to pay for her crimes but really it's only what you do with the gun now that matters.

I had a notion to maybe try my hand at hunting with the Mauser, since I've gotten a few two inch groups with her, but a friend said a scoped rifle might be better since a clean kill is necessary.

While the rifle is in good shape and shoots straight, I have others that would be more suitable for defending freedom.

With this rifle in particular, I just try to share it with fellow shooters so that the rifle can be involved in something positive in her "second life."


Think about it like this. The Israelis had no qualms using these for their own good.

Working Man
January 7, 2006, 01:38 PM
Jimmy Stewart's movie "Winchester 73" was an attempt at following the life of the rifle through it's various owners.

A historically accurate movie or book on a military firearm wouldn't make it in today's Hollywood....all violence and killing with no female lead roles or love stories for the chick flick audience.

Good movie.... kinda like a bad day getting worse, till the end of course.

chrisTx
January 7, 2006, 02:31 PM
i'm assuming my 1938 98K saw some action. i'm sure it's german owner probably died holding it since the russians didn't leave many alive.

i have two enfields that likely saw their fair share of WWII.

my 1944 garand looks like it may have continued whooping azz through korea too.

my mosins don't look that bad, so they must have belonged to one of the many ruskies who were too scared to do a lot of shooting and just stayed down in their fox hole.

my 03A3 looks like it made a nice storage piece.

my K31 looks like it went to hell and back. it's the worst of the bunch. it looks like someone used the butt stock as a shovel. now i can't for the life of me figure out why the one gun i have that probably never left someone's closet looks the worst of them all.

dasmi
January 7, 2006, 02:35 PM
This question is one of the reasons I bought my 1928 Mosin-Nagant 91/30. I'm sure it's seen many things.

Stickjockey
January 7, 2006, 04:00 PM
My 1915-production SMLE just goes all cold and shiver-y, and mutters unintelligibly. I thought I caught the words "Passchendaele" and "Somme" a couple of times, but I can't be sure.

MICHAEL T
January 7, 2006, 04:34 PM
I asked my M-1 carbine and it said if told me .It would have to kill me. :what:

Deadman
January 7, 2006, 06:27 PM
I've got an Israeli Mauser originally manufactured in the German Odendorf factory in 1943.
Not to sound to macabre, but I wonder how many Russian,British,American,Australian,Palestinian etc. soldiers it faced. If any at all.

jtward01
January 8, 2006, 05:39 AM
Two stories. My uncle had an Arisaka 99 he picked up on Iwo Jima. The rifle had what appeared to be a .30 cal slug (M1 Garand maybe?) imbedded in the stock. (My aunt gave all his guns and military memorabila away after he died.)

A friend has the Japanese bayonet that killed his uncle. Dave's uncle was found after a battle alive, but impaled by a bayonet. Surgeons removed the bayonet and when he woke up he said he wanted it for a souvenier. Dave's uncle made it back to a military hospital stateside, but eventually died of an infection caused by his wounds. The bayonet was in his personal effects when they were given to the family and they've kept it in his memory.

ZEN.45
January 8, 2006, 06:16 AM
Winchester Garand made in '44

Ithaca 1911A1 made in '44

Mauser K98 made in '39

Luger P08 made in '43

Springfield 1903 made in '20

I didn't find any other information on these, but ...

according to the 'Springfield research center' my Colt 1911 was made and issued in 1916 to the 10th Cavalry (Buffalo soldiers) for the Mexican punitive expedition (Pershin going after Pancho Villa).

rust collector
January 8, 2006, 09:14 AM
I don't speak the language, so the 1938 Turk, 96 Swede, VZ24 Czech and Yugo 24/47 just sulk in the corner. I asked my Dad's four-digit 1861 Colt navy pistol that question, but it likes to keep me guessing. It was produced in 1861 and the butt once wore an inscription of a name, but has been used to hammer with and I suspect it was misappropriated at least once in its life. The state crime lab looked at it to see if they could discern the name, but couldn't. It's been in retirement for the last 60 years or so.

A letter of provenance since lost indicated it had been sold to the US government or an officer, and it was bequeathed to Dad from an uncle who was a horse trader who did a lot of business with the Lakota. The pins between the nipples were filed off, which was sometimes done so the hammer could be fanned. May have been a real "life and times" piece, but reckon we'll never know for sure.

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