What the troops are buying with their own money


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Stebalo
January 7, 2006, 07:26 AM
http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20060105.aspx

What the Troops Buy With Their Own Money

January 5, 2006: American troops in Iraq are discovering, through combat experience, that more changes are needed in the type of weapons they should carry. As the U.S. Army Special Forces have discovered, if you are well trained and know what you are doing, you should carry a pistol, in addition to your rifle. But not the official issue 9mm pistol, but something with a bit more stopping power. The Special Forces prefer a new model .45 caliber (11.43mm) pistol, although 10mm weapons are also popular. The reason for this is that you are most likely to be using the pistol indoors, where your target is going to be really close. You want to knock him down quickly, before he can get at you with a knife, or even his hands. Many troops are getting their own pistols, and most commanders have been lenient on this issue. The same applies to shotguns. Although the army and marines have bought a lot of them (the Benelli M4 Combat Shotgun is a particular favorite), there never seem to be enough of them for some units (that spend a lot of time raiding buildings in hostile neighborhoods.)

Some troops also buy high tech electronic sights, when the army or marines has not gotten enough good stuff to equip everyone. Combat troops have also found it useful to learn how to use the AK-47, whose larger bullet has more punch at close range, and is more useful when firing through ceilings and interior walls. Some units collect captured AK-47s, select the ones in the best shape, clean them up and keep them handy for some types of operations. But just knowing the basics of operating an AK-47 is useful knowledge, which you’ll never know when you’ll need.

The troops also appreciated the getting the most realistic urban combat training possible. This included the use of modified (to fire slower bullets that sting, but don’t break the skin) pistols and rifles in “kill houses.” Here, training can be carried out with live ammo. Kill houses are also equipped with vidcams, and the troops particularly like to watch the vids of their performances. Seeing your mistakes apparently makes it easier to correct them.

All of this stuff is old news to the Special Forces, which have been doing all of this for years. But the army and marine grunts are smarter, better trained and better led than at any time in the past. That’s always been the description of the Special Forces, so it’s not surprising that the better quality “regular infantry” are starting to adopt Special Forces techniques.

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Fly320s
January 7, 2006, 09:02 AM
To sum up:

1. Bigger is better.

2. Knowledge is power.

:)

Highland Ranger
January 7, 2006, 09:08 AM
Good article . . .

Steve in PA
January 7, 2006, 09:19 AM
Yeah, those .45's just knock people completely down or all the way across rooms. :rolleyes:

1911 guy
January 7, 2006, 09:50 AM
Gear upgrades are common and popular with "the grunts" right now, but personal weapons are very tabboo. This was true before and it is true now. Oddball calibers are out, even if P.W.'s are allowed because of supply, oddball designs are out because of armorers. We have standard platforms and calibers for a reason. C.O. discretion is applicable with the unconventional forces, but it just ain't happenin' in the mainline.

Lebben-B
January 7, 2006, 09:54 AM
The Hague Conventions, which the US generally abides by, prevents the use of open-tip bullets like hollow points. 9mm FMJ isn't the optimum round to use to "Make the bad man stop."

I do not like the M9, but that dislike is based on personal preferences. But it's not the pistol in the main, it's the ammo. IF I must use FMJ, THEN I need a bigger round to poke a bigger hole in the bad guy, which is all I'm going to do with an FMJ pistol round.

Mike

armoredman
January 7, 2006, 10:02 AM
Does Hague prevent EFMJ?

Preacherman
January 7, 2006, 10:30 AM
Yes, Hague prevents any bullet designed to expand or fragment inside the human body. OTOH, Hague does not apply to terrorist conflicts - only to wars between sovereign nations that are signatories to the convention. The USA is not a signatory to the Hague conventions, but has elected to apply its provisions to its armed forces.

LSCurrier
January 7, 2006, 11:11 AM
This article was very good.

I agree that our troops should be armed in a manner that they CAN do their job. If handguns better than 9mm are required then give it to them. If they need shotguns or rifles then give it to them.

I understand why they would want to use the enemys AK47 as noted in the article, however I would be concerned with that this makes for a confusing and possibly dangerous situation. Not that I want to quote a movie for a statement of fact, but having no firsthand experience and believing the statement to be true, Clint Eastwood noted in Heartbreak Ridge:

“This is an AK47, the preferred weapon of your enemy. It makes a very distinct sound...”

With this in mind I don't know how I like our guys using the same weapon as the enemy and the possibilities that this creates a situation where a mistake is made by an AK47 being used and our guy gets fired upon accidently. I understand that the Iraqi Police/Soldiers are using the AK47 alongside our guys and perhaps this not an issue for this reason. Dunno??

Again, I feel that our guys should be given the tools they need. However, I understand the logistic issues with getting "every" soldier the tools he needs or would like to have and that decisions are sometimes made of who gets what. This concerns me because I know those that are against the Iraq war try to take anything they can and show how Bush and those in control of this war are screwing it up in any way they can. They would be particularly happy to say:

"Our soldiers are not even supplied with proper weapons! They have to use captured AK47 from the enemy."

Perhaps I've been thinking about this too much. :rolleyes:

Luke

grimjaw
January 7, 2006, 11:49 AM
"Our soldiers are not even supplied with proper weapons! They have to use captured AK47 from the enemy."

They could just chamber the M16 for 7.62x39 and give it the best of both worlds.

jmm

TexasRifleman
January 7, 2006, 12:32 PM
although 10mm weapons are also popular

Only with the best and brightest of the bunch :evil:

Where the heck are they getting hold of 10mm while in country?
Does ammoman ship to Iraq?

Somehow that one smells a little.....

CypherNinja
January 7, 2006, 12:38 PM
Does ammoman ship to Iraq?

LOL. Maybe they're ordering from DoubleTap.

Double Naught Spy
January 7, 2006, 12:54 PM
"Our soldiers are not even supplied with proper weapons! They have to use captured AK47 from the enemy."

The second sentence is wholly untrue. Whether or not troops are supplied with proper weapons is always an issue for any military

From the article, Combat troops have also found it useful to learn how to use the AK-47, whose larger bullet has more punch at close range, and is more useful when firing through ceilings and interior walls. Some units collect captured AK-47s, select the ones in the best shape, clean them up and keep them handy for some types of operations.

It is not that US Troops have to use captured AK-47s. It is that they find captured AK-47s useful for certain types of work than by using M16s. It has not been uncommon for American troops to use captured implements against their enemies. It has been done by Americans since as early as the Revolutionary War.

Similarly, captured American weapons have been used by the opposition to fight Americans as well.

If you could equip a soldier with every type of weapon and protection needed for all circumstances, for example CQB urban fighting, jungle fighting, short range open field, long range open field, riparian, mountain, littoral, hot, dry, wet, cold, frozen, etc. etc. etc. then you would have a soldier so overloaded as to not be of sufficient size and strength to actually move with the all inclusive gear.

Part of the reason for using captured weapons is that they may be situationally better to use than the standard US gear, but like US gear, also have significant limitations.

lance22
January 7, 2006, 01:14 PM
Unless a head shot is attained, stopping power is about making an enemy lose blood until either their muscles don't work or they can't breath. As already pointed out, it has nothing to do with "knocking them down".

A larger diameter hole will tear a greater area of tissue than a smaller hole. This has little to do with kinetic energy, save for a deeper hole will expidite more bleeding than a shallow hole. If a .40 and a .45 hole were punched into the same mass delivering the same kinetic energy, which subject would bleed out faster?

I think these lessons were learned 100 years ago when our military in the Philippines wanted to replace the service revolvers and it's amazing that we have to keep learning as it is history repeating itself.

Taurus 617 CCW
January 7, 2006, 01:54 PM
I sold a lot of Glock 17's to GI's being deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq last year. The only problem was that they wouldn't be able to get them back in country once they left. That makes for an extreme out-of-pocket experience. I would feel better knowing that my weapon was better than the "average issued" though. I guess you can't put a price on something that saves your life.

Parker Dean
January 7, 2006, 02:29 PM
...although 10mm weapons are also popular.

I, too, would like to know more about this. Like what kind of gun are they buying (1911, Glock, etc.), where are they getting their ammo, and what kind of ammo do they like? Inquiring minds want to know, dammit! :)

fluffygrrl
January 7, 2006, 02:45 PM
the problem with bigger is better comes from your own wrist.

sure, if there´s one you and one bad guy and one shot to decide the matter, give me as big a caliber as i can possibly hold still, and the DE hand cannon comes to mind.

but, if you are stuck in a baricaded room that you can´t leave because of enemy armor patrols out in the street, on enemy snipers up on buildings or whatever reason, and there´s a bunch of bad guys stumbling in, you need to be able to fire two, three, maybe half a dozen clips. with the .5 caliber any human being has stiff wrists after maybe 6 or 9 shots. you may think you personally are made of steel, but you are not, your hand will go stiff, you won´t be able to aim and then you die.

which is why the side arm is lower caliber than you can possibly hold. the side arm is there to give you a chance all around in unexpected situations, otherwise you could just carry a 1 shot tank blaster and that´d be it.

Jeff White
January 7, 2006, 03:04 PM
There is very little truth in that article.....just another internet site passing on military urban legends.........Jeff

bogie
January 7, 2006, 03:18 PM
Fluffster, the .45 isn't gonna make your hand go dead after 100 or so rounds. Plus, if you're shooting folks in close quarters, and you've got a moment or three in there, you'll have a very nice 7.62x39 automatic carbine that you can use for a while...

progunner1957
January 7, 2006, 03:23 PM
The Hague Conventions, which the US generally abides by, prevents the use of open-tip bullets like hollow points. 9mm FMJ isn't the optimum round to use to "Make the bad man stop."
Since terrorists do not qualify for the terms of the Hague Conventions, why not use hollowpoint ammo?? It makes sense - it's called "keeping your troops alive."

Some will say, "But then the terrorists will use HPs against us." If it were me, I'd be willing to take that chance in exchange for more effective pistol ammo. The terrorists can and will do worse than using HPs against our troops. Every time a U.S. soldier fights, it's a fight to the death - its kill or be killed.

To be captured by the terrorists guarantees having their heads hacked off on the internet - just like these savages have done to helpless, bound civilian non-combatants they have captured.

Terminate 'em all with extreme prejudice - let God sort 'em out. That's what I think.

f4t9r
January 7, 2006, 03:26 PM
interesting
i better go get a bigger gun

PistolPackin'Papa
January 7, 2006, 04:26 PM
f4t9r, I agree with both your sentiments. Getting older is the pits, so I might as well get a bigger gun, cause I am not running anywhere very fast.:D

Mannlicher
January 7, 2006, 04:50 PM
the prohibitions on using expanding bullets also says:
The present Declaration is only binding for the Contracting Powers in the case of a war between two or more of them.

It shall cease to be binding from the time when, in a war between the Contracting Parties, one of the belligerents is joined by a non-Contracting Power. "

Since insurgents in Iraq are not co signers, the use of expanding bullets against them is not prohibited by the Hague Convention.

Warbow
January 7, 2006, 06:58 PM
There is very little truth in that article.....just another internet site passing on military urban legends.........Jeff

I think I'll trust Jeff White on this.

The article lists no sources and doesn't quote even one serviceman who is in Afghanistan or Iraq.

Where did StrategyPage get this information?

DukeNukem
January 7, 2006, 07:12 PM
I don't really understand our adherence to the Hague Conventions. Aren't shotguns also banned under the Hague Conventions? We use shotguns, so why not expanding ammo, as well?

joab
January 7, 2006, 07:55 PM
fluffygrrl
My normal range session is 100 to 200 rounds of .45 and on occasion as much as 500
Followed by about 100 rounds of .38 from a light wieght snub and sometimes another 100 from a 9mm, and I'm a light wieght compared to some of these guys.
I doubt 6 to 9 rounds is going to cripple me in an adrenaline charged firefight

Not that I want to quote a movie for a statement of fact, but having no firsthand experience and believing the statement to be true, Clint Eastwood noted in Heartbreak Ridge:

“This is an AK47, the preferred weapon of your enemy. It makes a very distinct sound...”When I was in Basic (before the movie came out)
They took us to the range and demonstrated this very thing.
A three shot string was fired from a concealed spot with an AK and another from an M16
The difference is distinct and memorable.
From this simple exercise and having no further intraction with AKs I was able to ID my neighbors New Years celebratory gun as an AK from a single shot ten years later

Lebben-B
January 7, 2006, 08:09 PM
As far as the use of AKs and their derivatives in Big Army - It ain't happening. Taking an AK, for the individual Soldier/Sailor/Airman/Marine, is a violation of the Uniform Code of Military Justice (Disobeying Order, Directive or Regulation). Unless the weapon is to be deactivated as part of a unit display, the taking of enemy weapons is forbidden. Then there is the common sense aspect of it. Joe Snuffy takes an AK and decides to use it. Where's he going to get an adequate and steady supply of 7.62x39? He isn't. 99% of weapons and ammo captured/found are turned over to the IA for their use.

Mike

Gifted
January 7, 2006, 08:22 PM
It was mentioning UNITs doing this though. With a unit doing it, they store it in the armory, this isn't private Joe Blow grabbing an AK, it's the army taking captured weapons, and putting select ones to use. Big issue I've heard is sabotage. You don't use captured weapons unless they've been inspected. I'm going with those calling BS on this though, I'm not so sure they use alot of captured stuff, and I believe there was some furor a while back about the U.S. buying brand new AKs for the Iraqis, rather than salvaging.

tango3065
January 7, 2006, 11:01 PM
Yeah, those .45's just knock people completely down or all the way across rooms.


I was watching Mail call the other night and the host (popular guy can't think of his name though) was doing the show on military arms and was compairing the slow moving bullet of a 1911 compared to the fast moving bullet of a 9mm in a luger. He had 2 same size large pieces of wood hanging a tree and shot one with the 1911, and one with the luger, lets just say the one shot with 1911 had alot more movement.;)

Lebben-B
January 8, 2006, 12:17 AM
It was mentioning UNITs doing this though. With a unit doing it, they store it in the armory, this isn't private Joe Blow grabbing an AK, it's the army taking captured weapons, and putting select ones to use.

I just returned from Iraq and I saw none of this.

The only unit specifically mentioned in the article was Special Forces and it was vague at that (Each SF group is roughly the size of a brigade, that's a lot of ground to cover). No names or attributable quotes were given in the "article". You would get more accurate info if you were to read the National Enquirer. As far as the regular Army goes - NO FOREIGN WEAPONS. Again, even if "The unit" were to authorize taking AKs, where would they get the ammo to feed them? Order it from Ammoman?

"Stored in the Armory" What's the point of storing an individual-type weapon in the armory? If one of my guys is going to have an AK, he's going to carry it with him.

And what happens when it's time for the unit to rotate home? They can't keep the foreign weapon, because it hasn't been deactivated. If the unit is found to have active foreign weapons, the unit isn't going to be going ANYWHERE until the investigation is complete. Likewise, the relieving unit won't want the weapon, either. Why? Because it's against the reg, that's why.

I don't presume to speak for SF, that's not my lane

Mike

rero360
January 8, 2006, 01:04 AM
I can't speak from personal experience, haven't been over yet, thats the key word, yet, I'll find out tomorrow, my brigade commander is giving us a briefing. Anyways I can't imagine units using captured weapons, none of my buddies who've been over said anything about it, now I can see a soldier picking up an AK and using it during a firefight becuase he ran out of ammo for his M4 but once you get a resupply the AK gets lost and you go right back to the M4. again I could be wrong but it seems like common sense. Also the reason we do not use HPs even though it wouldn't be violating the hogue agreement, is probably most likely a supply issue, theres millions, if not billions of FMJ rounds in stockpile, it just does not make any sense from a logistical standpoint to switch to a different type of ammunition when theres allready a ton of useful ammo pressent. an example would be is we have M4s but they're sitting in a warehouse somewheres, some bigwig isn't giving them to us because if I understand correctly, our M16A2s are doing the job just fine and still have many years of service left in them. well I got to get some sleep, have to be up in 5 hours to go to drill and do a ton of paperwork, SRCs oh well, perhaps they'll kiss my ass into reenlisting early. they allready gave me a 31b school slot for the summer.:D lets see what else I can get out of them.

Manedwolf
January 8, 2006, 02:33 AM
I sold a lot of Glock 17's to GI's being deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq last year. The only problem was that they wouldn't be able to get them back in country once they left. That makes for an extreme out-of-pocket experience. I would feel better knowing that my weapon was better than the "average issued" though. I guess you can't put a price on something that saves your life.

Plastic gun, in a place where it can get over 120 degrees in the sun, with unairconditioned vehicles you might have to stash some of your gear in.

Uh...no.

twency
January 8, 2006, 02:43 AM
Plastic gun, in a place where it can get over 120 degrees in the sun, with unairconditioned vehicles you might have to stash some of your gear in.

Uh...no.

"Plastic gun", as if the gun is going to melt into a puddle onto the floor of a transport vehicle.

Uh...no.

MatthewVanitas
January 8, 2006, 03:10 AM
Plastic gun, in a place where it can get over 120 degrees in the sun, with unairconditioned vehicles you might have to stash some of your gear in.

Uh...no.

I'm told that ground temp hit 140 while during the second of my two tours. Yet my boots didn't melt. I've never so much as seen a melted handguard over the course of the 14 months I spent overseas.

If a Glock frame and AR-15 furniture can deal with pieces of lead going Mach1/Mach3 through the barrel right next to the plastic, I wouldn't worry about a little heat. For what it's worth, I've been more miserable wearing shorts and T-shirt in a muggy Ohio summer than I was wearing a MOPP suit or SAPI plates in my Interceptor in Iraq. Not to say it isn't hot, but once you get away from the rivers, it's a really, really dry heat.

I'll also vote for the article being either a fake, or written by some random pogue who think's he's high-speed (note, I do not claim to be high-speed myself). I saw tons of folks buy their own holsters and lanyards, but not a single uniformed servicemen with a US-bought pistol. I saw exactly one man carrying an issue 1911 (was with some sort of CQB training unit stateside and was pulling security for Civil Affairs in Ramadi). I knew maybe eight uniformed Marines who carried confiscated weapons on a regular basis, seven of whom were in an EOD unit run by a gun-buff Gunny who let his boys carry AK, Persian G3, and Brit Sterling in addition to their regular gear.

-MV

chopinbloc
January 8, 2006, 03:57 AM
Plastic gun, in a place where it can get over 120 degrees in the sun, with unairconditioned vehicles you might have to stash some of your gear in.


yeah, and uh, don't throw it on the bbq, either.:banghead: i'm not sure why this idea persists. maybe he was joking and i'm the one being thick headed. let me say this very clearly, though: any temperature high enough to melt a glock frame would kill the end user as well.

that article is mostly crap. there is a somewhat relaxed atmosphere in some units and i wouldn't be surprised to see someone using a foreign weapon but i haven't; not a u.s. serviceman, anyway. i have, however seen the ana, asf, 'terps and other contractors carrying kalashnikov style rifles and/or makarovs. the fbi here carries m4s and glocks. many contractors also use glocks. no, there would not be an ammo supply issue because of the fact that so many legitimate users have the ak.

personal gear is ok, including sights and knives. the army doesn't like anything that goes "bang" that wasn't issued. though i'm sure it would be illegal, you would have no problem at all getting a weapon INTO the country and i've heard rumors of such but getting one out would be basically impossible.

Jeff White
January 8, 2006, 05:07 AM
The Special Forces prefer a new model .45 caliber (11.43mm) pistol, although 10mm weapons are also popular.

First off, there is a program in place right now that is supposed to select a new service pistol. And yes, it's supposed to be a .45. That much is true. However, I'm not even sure that the date for the manufacturers to submit their prototypes for testing is here yet. That makes it highly unlikely that anyone in Iraq or Afghanistan has one. They don't exist yet.

As for the 10mm claim. This is the second time in a week I've seen someone post about it. The first time was on www.tacticalforums.com . I moderate the Army Forum there. A poser who we ended up banning also made that claim, and it was soundly refuted by the moderator of the Navy SEALS forum there who is a real deal SEAL.

You can read the whole story here:

http://www.tacticalforums.com/cgi-bin/tacticalubb/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=66;t=000474;p=2

Many troops are getting their own pistols, and most commanders have been lenient on this issue.

CENTCOM General Order Number One forbids the possession and use of personally owned firearms. Commanders who are lenient on the issue take their career in their hands. So in reality most of them aren't. You may have seen photos of soldiers with Glock pistols in their holsters. Many of the advisors and trainers for the Iraqi police force have been issued Glocks that were provided to the Iraqi police forces. They aren't taking them in country, mom and dad aren't sending them to the troops from home. Uncle Sam bought them and the soldiers working with the Iraqi police are getting them.

Combat troops have also found it useful to learn how to use the AK-47, whose larger bullet has more punch at close range, and is more useful when firing through ceilings and interior walls. Some units collect captured AK-47s, select the ones in the best shape, clean them up and keep them handy for some types of operations. But just knowing the basics of operating an AK-47 is useful knowledge, which you’ll never know when you’ll need.

This also has some basis in fact. In the Summer of 2003, when the insurgency was just getting started, troops from other combat arms branches other then Infantry were pressed into service to do dismounted patrolling. Many Artillerymen and tankers found themselves conducting Infantry operations. Neither branch was equipped to handle this mission, but the tankers were in really bad shape, as they had very few rifles. A tank crew is armed with a pistol and there are two M4 carbines in each tank that can be used when the crew has to dismount. One Armor battalion used captured AKs to augment their M4s until additional M16s and M4s could be found to arm the tank crews.

There are few places on the internet I would trust to have the right information. Strategy Page isn't one of them.

Jeff

1911 guy
January 8, 2006, 08:52 AM
Posted by Taurus 617 CCW:
I sold a lot of Glock 17's to GI's being deployed to Afghanistan and Iraq last year. The only problem was that they wouldn't be able to get them back in country once they left. That makes for an extreme out-of-pocket experience. I would feel better knowing that my weapon was better than the "average issued" though. I guess you can't put a price on something that saves your life.

I'll bet you dollars to doughnuts that those pistols went to wives and girlfriends. I've seen it happen before with myself and friends right before deployment time. We'll be gone, get something for the gal that's left behind.

PvtPyle
January 8, 2006, 10:04 AM
Not good article, bad article, filled with many inaccuracies.

http://www.strategypage.com/htmw/htweap/articles/20060105.aspx

What the Troops Buy With Their Own Money

January 5, 2006: American troops in Iraq are discovering, through combat experience, that more changes are needed in the type of weapons they should carry. As the U.S. Army Special Forces have discovered, if you are well trained and know what you are doing, you should carry a pistol, in addition to your rifle. But not the official issue 9mm pistol, but something with a bit more stopping power. The Special Forces prefer a new model .45 caliber (11.43mm) pistol, although 10mm weapons are also popular. .

SF is getting issued the new .45's, not buying and bringing their own to war. And it is a violation of several policies, from USASOC up to DOA for them to do so.


.[/QUOTE]The reason for this is that you are most likely to be using the pistol indoors, where your target is going to be really close. You want to knock him down quickly, before he can get at you with a knife, or even his hands. Many troops are getting their own pistols, and most commanders have been lenient on this issue. [/QUOTE]

I also find this EXCEEDINGLY hard to believe. Having been there and seen the way upper level SF officers think and act, I call BS on this one too.

[/QUOTE]The same applies to shotguns. Although the army and marines have bought a lot of them (the Benelli M4 Combat Shotgun is a particular favorite), there never seem to be enough of them for some units (that spend a lot of time raiding buildings in hostile neighborhoods.) [/QUOTE]

Again, they do not belong to the troops. They are bought with SOR money and added to the books, because they do not have them in the normal inventories.

[/QUOTE]Some troops also buy high tech electronic sights, when the army or marines [/QUOTE] A real author who had done any kind of real homework on the military would know that Army and Marines especially should have been capitalized.[/QUOTE]has not gotten enough good stuff to equip everyone. Combat troops have also found it useful to learn how to use the AK-47, whose larger bullet has more punch at close range, and is more useful when firing through ceilings and interior walls. Some units collect captured AK-47s, select the ones in the best shape, clean them up and keep them handy for some types of operations. But just knowing the basics of operating an AK-47 is useful knowledge, which you’ll never know when you’ll need.

The troops also appreciated the getting the most realistic urban combat training possible. This included the use of modified (to fire slower bullets that sting, but don’t break the skin) pistols and rifles in “kill houses.” Here, training can be carried out with live ammo. Kill houses are also equipped with vidcams, and the troops particularly like to watch the vids of their performances. Seeing your mistakes apparently makes it easier to correct them.

All of this stuff is old news to the Special Forces, which have been doing all of this for years. But the army and marine grunts are smarter, better trained and better led than at any time in the past. That’s always been the description of the Special Forces, so it’s not surprising that the better quality “regular infantry” are starting to adopt Special Forces techniques.[/QUOTE]

Those are not SF techniques, those are nessasary training POIs. The modern battlefield has changed, and like it or not, the conventional forces need to change with it.

FrankGrimeyGrimes
January 8, 2006, 02:26 PM
I seem to recall photos of armor crews - particularly those manning pintle mounted M240s using AKs or having AK's within arms' reach as secondary weapons...

I just wish I could find some of the pics... :confused:

PvtPyle
January 8, 2006, 03:02 PM
That is not uncommon. Sometimes, in the cities it is easier to bring your secondary weapon to bear than the mounted gun. With the MK-19, it could also be within danger close of the HE rounds. So having a secondary weapon, that you wont be charged for the loss of destruction of is a good idea.

Double Naught Spy
January 8, 2006, 06:56 PM
Plastic gun, in a place where it can get over 120 degrees in the sun, with unairconditioned vehicles you might have to stash some of your gear in.


yeah, and uh, don't throw it on the bbq, either.:banghead: i'm not sure why this idea persists. maybe he was joking and i'm the one being thick headed. let me say this very clearly, though: any temperature high enough to melt a glock frame would kill the end user as well.


Folks store their guns in their cars all the time. In AZ and some other areas like Death Valley, temps into the 120s aren't terribly uncommon. That means temps inside parked cars are up to about 150 or so. I have yet to ever read of a Glock or other polymer gun melting down in a hot car that wasn't actually on fire.

As chopinbloc said, if it is hot enough to melt the gun, it is hot enough to kill the troops with it.

I find it strange that we have some of the best equipped soldiers ever and yet people complain how poorly outfitted the soldiers are. Sure, we can always do better, but compared to any time in the past, we have soldiers in the field with better all sorts of better gear, certainly better armor, better coms, etc.

Given a choice, what folks are thinking are poorly outfit American soldiers of today are exponentially better off than the best outfitted American soldiers of just a few decades ago who were doing the same jobs.

IndianaDean
January 8, 2006, 08:57 PM
First off, there is a program in place right now that is supposed to select a new service pistol. And yes, it's supposed to be a .45. That much is true. However, I'm not even sure that the date for the manufacturers to submit their prototypes for testing is here yet. That makes it highly unlikely that anyone in Iraq or Afghanistan has one. They don't exist yet.


The Marines special forces are already using the Kimber .45 that the new Kimber Warrior is modelled on.

I've switched to a .45 for ccw, and I'm glad to have it. And, my Ultra Carry doesn't have that much more of a kick than similarly sized 9mms I've fired.

Jeff White
January 8, 2006, 09:25 PM
The Marines special forces are already using the Kimber .45 that the new Kimber Warrior is modelled on.

I am aware of that. I carry a Kimber Warrior as my duty weapon at work. But you're looking at 100 pistols for MARSOC Det 1. Force Recon is using the custom 1911 built by Marine armorers and just gave Springfield Armory a contract for new pistols. But again we're talking about small numbers.

Army SOF is using the M9 and some 1911A1s. A coupld Army SOF units that DA doesn't talk about are using custom 1911s and Glocks. Naval special warfare is still pretty much using the SIG.

The truth is, that there aren't a lot of issued .45s in theater. This is the program that I think the article on Strategy Page is referring to:

Solicitation number : H92222-05-R-0017
Title : 10 -- Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) System

http://www1.eps.gov/spg/ODA/USSOCOM.../SynopsisP.html

General Information

Document Type: Presolicitation Notice
Solicitation Number: H92222-05-R-0017
Posted Date: Aug 26, 2005
Original Response Date: Nov 29, 2005
Current Response Date: Nov 29, 2005
Original Archive Date: Oct 14, 2005
Current Archive Date: Oct 14, 2005
Classification Code: 10 -- Weapons
Naics Code: 332994 -- Small Arms Manufacturing

Contracting Office AddressOther Defense Agencies, U.S. Special Operations Command, Headquarters Procurement Division, 7701 Tampa Point Blvd, MacDill AFB, FL, 33621-5323

Description

The USSOCOM intends to issue a solicitation to obtain commercially available non-developmental item (NDI) Joint Combat Pistol (JCP) system, Caliber .45 (ACP). The Program will use full and open competition to fulfill the JCP requirement.
The JCP will be delivered in accordance with specification entitled "Performance Specification Joint Combat Pistol" to be provided with issuance of the solicitation.
Two configurations of the pistol will be required.
One configuration will have no external safety and the other configuration will have an external safety.
The Combat Pistol System consists of: a Caliber .45 pistol and its ancillary equipment including: Magazines (standard and high-capacity); Suppressor Attachment Kit for operation of the pistol with and without sound suppressor; Holster; Magazine Holder (standard and high-capacity); Cleaning Kit; and Operator's Manual.
The contract type will be an Indefinite Delivery/Indefinite Quantity (IDIQ) issuing Firm-Fixed Price (FFP) delivery orders. The contract period of performance shall be Five (5)years with an option to extend for an additional Five (5) years.
The Minimum Quantity is 24 each Engineering Test Units (ETU's), 12 each with external manual safety and 12 each without external manual safety. The estimated Maximum quantities are: 45,000 no external safety JCP configuration and 600,000 JCP with the external safety configuration; 649,000 Holsters; 96,050 Standard Capacity Magazines; 192,099 High Capacity Magazines; 667,000 Magazine Holders; 132,037 Suppressor attachment kits; Provisioning Item Order, Technical Data Package and associated Data.
Transportation shall be F.O.B. Destination.
The solicitation will require, free of charge to the government, delivery of 24 each product samples along with a concise written proposal all due on the closing date stated in the solicitation. The 24-each product sample from the successful offeror may be accepted as the Minimum Quantity. Any subsequent delivery orders for JCP's will order between 50 each and 200,000 each with a maximum monthly delivery rate of 5,000 each.
Any subsequent orders for the ancillary items will require delivery to commence within 60 days after receipt of order. The product samples and written proposal will be evaluated on a best value basis and the Government will reserve the right to award to other than the lowest priced offeror and other than the highest technically rated offeror.
Product samples from unsuccessful offerors will be returned to the offerors upon request and at the offeror's expense. The Government cannot guarantee the condition of the product samples after testing.
All responsible sources may submit a proposal, which shall be considered by the agency.
The Government intend to issue a draft solicitation. Notifications, Solicitation, and other communication will be posted via FEDBIZOPS.
Questions may be emailed to Contract Specialist,

Jeff

IndianaDean
January 8, 2006, 09:31 PM
Thanks for the info. I was actually wondering if any Marines in combat in Iraq were using the Warrior, or if that wasn't the case.

fluffygrrl
January 10, 2006, 08:56 PM
fluffygrrl
My normal range session is 100 to 200 rounds of .45 and on occasion as much as 500
Followed by about 100 rounds of .38 from a light wieght snub and sometimes another 100 from a 9mm, and I'm a light wieght compared to some of these guys.
I doubt 6 to 9 rounds is going to cripple me in an adrenaline charged firefight


ok,so how whats your deadly shot ratio in the first 10 as compared to the 100-110 shots ? and i hope you are talking moving or popping targets, not some stationary.

joab
January 11, 2006, 12:10 AM
i hope you are talking moving or popping targets, not some stationary.What difference is moving or stationary targets going to make as to the impact of the felt recoil on the wrist, which is what you said would be stiff after 6 shots.

Also in your scenario you are sitting in a barricaded room shooting people as they come through the door or window.

Your assertion that 6 to 9 shots would be the physical limit of any body not made of steel is the issue that you brought up, not degrading accuracy or whether the target is moving or stationary.

Travis McGee
January 11, 2006, 01:21 AM
I can vouch that in SEAL team personal side arms were tolerated. No problemo.

As far as this article, I think it's the usual mish mash of scuttlebutt and rumors. My BS flag went up when I read about 10mm. Who has 10mm? Only the FBI and some other feds, in their own MP-5/10s.

Travis McGee
January 11, 2006, 01:31 AM
Fluffygirl, can you tell me about any 100+ round PISTOL ONLY firefights you have heard of lately? Doesn't happen.

In combat, there is a reason pistols are called SIDEARMS. They are for transitioning to when your rifle won't go bang, or for folks doing special duties that require them to use their hands for technical duties (searching prisoners, etc) while in a hostile area.

Don't worry about your wrists getting tired from shooting .45 compared to 9mm. Worry about stopping bad guys at room distance right now, compared to putting lots of ineffective 9mm FMJ holes in them.

If you gotta shoot FMJ, then .45 is the ONLY caliber for combat.

1911 guy
January 11, 2006, 06:32 AM
Sorry, don't think so. I and many here have fired numerous rounds at one stretch with out the amount of fatigue proposed by fluffygirl. Granted, a pistol is not a primary arm, but neither is it a limb deadening beast. Any good weps training requires not only "classroom" knowledge, but firing several hundred rounds during the course of training, usually in a few days, sometimes hours. I regularly burn through one or two hundred rounds out of oh-so-dreaded .45ACP in an afternoon. Wrists of steel? I think not, I'm getting old and fat.

MechAg94
January 11, 2006, 10:57 AM
I am not plastics/polymer engineer or anything, but I was taught that there are two types of polymers in general. A thermoplastic material is the type that gets soft when heated. A thermoset polymer is a type that sets to a shape and does not get soft when heated. I believe "plastic" firearms use the latter type not the former. It would be pretty stupid to design a gun with a frame that melts or goes soft when the barrel gets hot. :)

johnnymenudo
January 11, 2006, 11:30 AM
Everything this article says seems to ring true with the independent contractors in IRAQ. I wonder if there was some confusion between government and independent employees?

JM

Bartholomew Roberts
January 11, 2006, 11:33 AM
Unless a head shot is attained, stopping power is about making an enemy lose blood until either their muscles don't work or they can't breath. As already pointed out, it has nothing to do with "knocking them down".

A larger diameter hole will tear a greater area of tissue than a smaller hole. This has little to do with kinetic energy, save for a deeper hole will expidite more bleeding than a shallow hole. If a .40 and a .45 hole were punched into the same mass delivering the same kinetic energy, which subject would bleed out faster?

Well that is the question isn't it? At the rate a human heart pumps out blood, exactly how much difference does 0.05" or 0.10" make in how long it takes for the pressure to reach a level where the body is physiologically incapable of fighting back?

I think if we were to do the math, we would discover that there is effectively no difference between these calibers in real-world practical terms as long as they penetrate deeply enough to reach vital organs.

pete f
January 11, 2006, 12:16 PM
Just talked to a navy DR attached to marines who is out in the field over there, I asked him about this. his response.
Some marines were carrying AK's, The ones that were all seemed to either be instructors or liasons (maybe samething, but his words) with Iraqi DF or ING. These units were all armed with Glocks and AK's. He said at first he carried a Glock 17 that was given him by a marine that was stamps USDOJ. So somewhere a DOJ had a glock and turned it in for a Sig and the Glock ended up in Iraq. He also said there was one unit of Navy personel on his location, he declined to call them SEAL's who had a wide variety of weapons and on occaison used AK's on night ops when it was felt that AK fire would be less conspicous as sound signature.

Partly through his tour his CO changed and it was decreed that it would be US issued weapons only. Shortly after he said that an ammended order came down saying that without specific Authorizaton, it was US weapons only. he was issued a M9 and kit. (i sent him a Sparks IWB for the 17 which he continued to wear under his scrubs.)

As for ammo, he said they had literally a city block sized warehouse of captured arms and ammo. He said the ING and the IDF were going thru scads of AK rounds in training and not even making a dent on what they had. As far as captured ammo, unless it was in a battle pack, it was destroyed as much of it was tinkered with.

He said he saw no US personnel carrying .45 1911's at all except for certain navy personel. He did find several that were captures, including one minty rem rand 1911a1. He was surprised by the variety of AK variants that they would capture, thinking that most of these would have been military liberation, but there were polish, bulg, yugo, russian, chinese, and some unknowns. there were also a lot of HK and FN FAL's captured. These were not given out to the indiginous forces.

One thing he did confirm was soldier purchased sights. Lots of EO techs and ACOGS. Lots of soldier purchased web gear, hydration pacs, etc.
This is his second trip over there, he is a trauma surgeon/ anesthesiologist dual board certified MD.

MAUSER88
January 11, 2006, 12:24 PM
Interesting article. Thanks.

fluffygrrl
January 11, 2006, 01:49 PM
if you properly aim, you can kill someone with a .22 caliber. 9 mm is a lethal weapon. if you put plenty of useless 9 mm holes in anyone, it means you need more shooting practice, not a bigger gun. trying to improve your aim by increasing caliber is akin to trying to improve plane landing safety by adding more engines.

and even if you were in a baricaded room, you wouldn´t have the luxury of someone always coming in the same exact place. you will have to aim. to kill them you will have to aim good.

now i understand all you boys are real men and all, shoting billions of shots with no sore wrists and such, but do this simple experiment. see what your letal shot ratio is on a fresh clip against moving or popping targets, go fire 50 or so .45 shots and come back.

so, you say, it drops 10%. what does that matter ? if you were in hospital preparing for surgery and your surgeon came to you and said, well, your procedure normally has a 99.5% survival rate, but i spent all last night drinking with the boys, so it´s probably going to be in the high 80´s for you, what would you do ?

note the number of that lawyer down, and see if he´s willing to represent you against yourself sometime.

joab
January 11, 2006, 05:51 PM
now i understand all you boys are real men and all, shooting billions of shots with no sore wrists and such, but do this simple experiment. see what your letal shot ratio is on a fresh clip against moving or popping targets, go fire 50 or so .45 shots and come back.That statement assumes that none of us have done this, or are you just projecting your own experience on us boys.
And again you are waffling. Your original premise was that nobody but the man of steel could shoot more than 6 to 9 large bore rounds, which simply has no basis in reality.
Your lack of experience is showing

it means you need more shooting practice, not a bigger gunHow much training can you get at 6 to 9 shots per session

fluffygrrl
January 11, 2006, 08:04 PM
thank you for the free personal assesment.

my original statement was that simply increasing the caliber is not necessarily a wise measure, given that it comes with a drop in accuracy, especially over longer shooting sessions. if you want to flame, feel free to, but pick someone else. if you want to say that increasing caliber does not decrease accuracy, feel free to, but i´d like to see some data.

the main point to be remembered here is that while gun afficionados mostly have their guns because they like them, military people mostly have them because they need them. projecting gun afficionado fantasies on the military profession is ... well... i´m sure you can figure it out.

joab
January 11, 2006, 08:48 PM
projecting gun afficionado fantasies on the military profession is ... well... i´m sure you can figure it out.Making assessments of someone's professional and/or military experience based solely on the fact that they called you out on a faulty theory and for further changing that theory when you are unable to back it up is ,well, you know..

Your first statement (the one I repeatedly refer to)
any human being has stiff wrists after maybe 6 or 9 shots.you may think you personally are made of steel, but you are not, your hand will go stiff, you won´t be able to aim and then you die.
Please explain to me what difference it makes what kind of targets you are sooting at.
Recoil is recoil whether you are shooting into the air or at peanuts on strings. or running Hogans Alley.

Your assertion that 6 to 9 rounds will impact a shooter's wrist to the point of degraded accuracy on a human size target at barricaded room distances is the issue that I addressed. It shows a level of inexperience with large bore guns

And of course anybody that disagrees with you is a wannabe with testosterone issues:rolleyes:

Just because you can't do it doesn't mean others can't

Kodiaz
January 11, 2006, 09:29 PM
6 to 9 rounds from a .45 thats it. I shoot 200 rounds thru mine (Kimber TLE 2 in stainless) every weekend. All my shots are good but I don't shoot at popup targets(oh I'd probably go every day then).

joab
January 11, 2006, 09:57 PM
6 to 9 rounds from a .45 thats it. I shoot 200 rounds thru mine (Kimber TLE 2 in stainless) every weekend.Doesn't count if you're only an aficionado:rolleyes:

ajax
January 11, 2006, 10:30 PM
Yea fluff not to bash or anything personal but you dont know what your talking about. Your in over your head.

LawDog
January 11, 2006, 11:18 PM
fluffygrrl,

I joined the U.S. Army in 1985. At the time, my unit was still issuing the M1911A1 pistol. Qualification on this pistol was done by shooting 100 rounds through it for 're-familiarization', and then firing the fifty round qualification course.

Considerably more than 6-9 rounds. Note, do, that we fired the 50 rounds to qualify only after we fired the first 100 rounds. Not only did I see no loss in accuracy with the last fifty rounds, but I usually saw a great increase in accuracy with them.

In addition, I took an Advanced Handgun course with a Colt Lightweight Commander some years back. Druing this four-day course, I fired somewhere in the neighborhood of 1,000 to 1,200 rounds of .45 ACP ammunition out of a pistol that is lighter (greater recoil) than the standard M1911A1 .45 ACP. I fired the .45 two-handed, weak side hand only, with one hand from behind a ballistic shield, and every other possible combination of handedness.

There was no appreciable degradation in accuracy from Day 1 through the last day.

LawDog

hso
January 12, 2006, 02:11 AM
the problem with bigger is better comes from your own wrist....any human being has stiff wrists after maybe 6 or 9 shots. you may think you personally are made of steel, but you are not, your hand will go stiff, you won´t be able to aim and then you die..

That just doesn't track with personal experience.

My wife is 5'4" and shoots a .45. She does this infrequently. After 100 rounds she does not have a stiff wrist and she doesn't have any problem aiming.

Tamara is 5'12" and shoots a .45. She does this frequently. After 100 rounds she does not have a stiff wrist and she doesn't have any problem aiming.

I'm a portly 5'8" with spindley chicken wing wrists and I shoot a .45. I do this frequently. After 100 rounds I do not have a stiff wrist and don't have any more problem aiming than I did with the first round.

The handgun carry certification in TN requires applicants to shoot well in excess of 6 to 9 shots (more like 20+) and requires them to aim and hit the target. Many women shoot these 20+ rounds and aim and hit the target. Some of them even shoot the course with .357s and .45s. They do not fail to hit the targe after 6 to 9 shots.

Anyone that has the problem you describe should consult a physician.

1911 guy
January 12, 2006, 09:18 AM
Short and to the point. Fluffygirl is in over her head. Actually, I hope she gets some training and learns to shoot well before she gives it up as an unattainable skill.

PigPen
January 16, 2006, 12:18 PM
if you properly aim, you can kill someone with a .22 caliber. 9 mm is a lethal weapon. if you put ....................................now i understand all you boys are real men and all, shoting billions of shots with no sore wrists and such, but do this simple experiment. see what your letal shot ratio is on a fresh clip against moving or popping targets, go fire 50 or so .45 shots and come back. ..................




Somehow, I think this thread misses the point. sorry :eek: !! When shooting someone, you are unlikely to fire 50 rounds before taking one shot to try and hit them. Given, firing round 51 is probably less accurate than round number one. But when trying to hit someone, I will not be firing 50 rounds first!

Also adrenaline will help when it's for all the marbles!

I hope that this is not taken as just wanting to argue. I understand that the situation might vary in Iraq right now. But I am unlikely to be in Iraq right now unless they have started drafting again and people in their 60's at that.

PigPen

wingnutx
January 16, 2006, 02:14 PM
Some of us picked up AKs:

http://www.punk-rock.com/iraq/goldak-x.jpg

but we didn't get to keep them.

Yes, that is gold :D

wingnutx
January 16, 2006, 02:15 PM
My friend's Marine unit told them they would not be searched for backup pistols on the way over, but they would on the way back, nudge nudge hint hint.

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