Question about FL concealed carry laws.


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thumper723
January 7, 2006, 01:41 PM
Below is an excerpt of the law, as quoted on the FL state website. I am concerned with what exactly it means, as I have been given 3 different answers by 3 different "experts".

790.06(12) - No license issued pursuant to this section shall authorize any person to carry a concealed weapon or firearm into any place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05; any police, sheriff, or highway patrol station; any detention facility, prison, or jail; any courthouse; any courtroom, except that nothing in this section would preclude a judge from carrying a concealed weapon or determining who will carry a concealed weapon in his or her courtroom; any polling place; any meeting of the governing body of a county, public school district, municipality, or special district; any meeting of the Legislature or a committee thereof; any school, college, or professional athletic event not related to firearms; any school administration building; any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose; any elementary or secondary school facility; any area vocational-technical center; any college or university facility unless the licensee is a registered student, employee, or faculty member of such college or university and the weapon is a stun gun or nonlethal electric weapon or device designed solely for defensive purposes and the weapon does not fire a dart or projectile; inside the passenger terminal and sterile area of any airport, provided that no person shall be prohibited from carrying any legal firearm into the terminal, which firearm is encased for shipment for purposes of checking such firearm as baggage to be lawfully transported on any aircraft; or any place where the carrying of firearms is prohibited by federal law. Any person who willfully violates any provision of this subsection commits a misdemeanor of the second degree, punishable as provided in s 775.082 or s. 775.083.

From a Jacksonville Sherriff Officer, you can carry in a place like Applebees, Outback, Chilis, but not Hooters, "Bar and Grill" type sports restaurants (Fast Boys Wings, Sneakers, etc).

From a Navy JAG lawyer (who is a gun nut), If they serve ANY alcohol, you cannot go in. Eliminates most any restaurant except fast food and sub shops. Most pizza places here serve beer.

From a retired GMCM (Gunners' Mate Master Chief) that has had a CCW since they issued them (and is a RSO at a local range), the legal interpretation of this has been if greater than 50% of the income is from Alcohol, off limits. Which does not apply to most of the places I go.

Would any FL experts like to chime in on this, I'll run with the JAG's conservative interpretation until I can be shown otherwise.

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TarpleyG
January 7, 2006, 02:00 PM
You can sit anywhere except for the "bar" area which is usually sectioned off and is apparent. Places like Hooters is not off limts. You just can't sit at the bar proper. There is an English pub near my house that serves food. The bar is on one side of a small partition and the tables on the other side. While it is a bar in the traditional sense, they server enough food there to ban smoking so I assume it is considered a restaurant. I think you're okay as long as you aren't bellied up to the bar and drinking. As usual, IANAL and YMMV.

Greg

Hkmp5sd
January 7, 2006, 02:16 PM
From a Florida CCW Instructor (that has been teaching the course since the CCW was started in 1987), what TarpleyG said. :)

USNCHIEF
January 7, 2006, 02:27 PM
Basically, If you enter a "eating" place and they allow smoking you should not carry there. Florida allows smoking in Bars.....Bars are not considered resturants because they are not allowed to have the majority of their income from food. Now I know a "lawyer" can pick this statement apart but it is a good general rule to follow. However, even if I go to a Chili's or any other resturant.....I will not have a drink just to be safe.

k_dawg
January 7, 2006, 08:23 PM
As always, the law often times hides itself in smoke. How does a patron know what percentages of alchohol to food is? What about at a strip joint?

It seems to be the "common sense" consensus is that the seperate bar area of resturants is "taboo". Of course, since we dont know exactly where the line in the floor maybe [ with out looking at the building plans ]..that raises questions.. what if the door to the bathroom is "thru" the bar?

You can thank lawyers for this mess.. :cuss:

IMHO: the area should not matter. But rather, ones sobriety. Drinking 10 beers at a table is worse than drinking one beer at the bar.

Winzeler
January 7, 2006, 11:42 PM
Thumper, (off topic) you're obviously from the Jacksonville area. That's pretty cool. I did three years on USS The Sullivans in Mayport. Are you Navy, too?

drinks
January 8, 2006, 12:19 AM
Texas makes it slightly more clear, a place to be off limits due to alcohol service, has to have a sign at the entrance , sign to be a 51% figure inside a circle, with a diagonal bar across it.
It denotes the establishment makes at least 51% of its revenue from the sale of alcoholic beverages.
Perhaps Florida can be persuaded to require some similar sign.

thumper723
January 8, 2006, 12:19 AM
Yep, Live up in Oceanway, I'm a pilot at HSL-42.

Cruised on the JFK, Vicksburg, and Anzio.

Seminole
January 8, 2006, 03:04 AM
TarpleyG is correct. Legally, you just need to stay out of the "bar" area of a restaurant. I response to k_dawg's question about the restroom, if the only way to get to the restroom is through the "bar" area, I don't go to the restroom (and since I have a pretty small bladder, that means I don't usually go back to that restaurant!). :D

My guess is that strip joints count as bars, but since I don't visit them I've never had a reason to think about it before.

Andrew Rothman
June 18, 2006, 03:14 PM
Sorry to revive an old thread, but I'm hoping a Floridian can elaborate further.

What about a nightclub? Presumably, the dance floor isn't "which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to..." dispensing alcohol.

Or am I parsing it too fine?

And while I'm at it, is there any way to neuter the gun (unload it, take it apart, lock it up) so that it can be taken into an otherwise-prohibited place?

Hkmp5sd
June 18, 2006, 04:01 PM
Or am I parsing it too fine?

Yep. It is still a bar, so leave the gun outside.

And while I'm at it, is there any way to neuter the gun (unload it, take it apart, lock it up) so that it can be taken into an otherwise-prohibited place?

There is nothing in the law that allows for disassembling the gun and keeping it with you. If you're going in a bar, leave the gun in the car. If you are concerned about theft, weld a lockbox in the trunk somewhere out of sight and lock the gun up when needed.

hirundo82
June 18, 2006, 04:13 PM
Texas makes it slightly more clear, a place to be off limits due to alcohol service, has to have a sign at the entrance , sign to be a 51% figure inside a circle, with a diagonal bar across it.
It denotes the establishment makes at least 51% of its revenue from the sale of alcoholic beverages.
Perhaps Florida can be persuaded to require some similar sign.Just wanted to point out that this is not completely correct. Texas law says that places that get more than 51% of their revenue from alcohol are off-limits. Unlike 30.06 signs, there is no requirement for posting the 51% signs at the entrance. Often it is hidden somewhere, like above a doorway or bahind the bar.

It is not a defense to prosecution that the sign was not posted. We are supposed to know if it is a 51% establishment or not, and I do not know how to know that for certain short of calling TABC. My policy is that I do not carry anywhere that would be considered a bar. If I see one of the "Unlicensed Possession" signs posted, I assume it is OK to carry with a CHL as only establishments with <51% alcohol revenue are supposed to post those signs. I also do not drink any alcohol at all while carrying.

Mannlicher
June 18, 2006, 06:17 PM
My friend at the State's Attorney's office says that in FL, you can't CCW in a Quota license establishment. That would cover most dance clubs and night clubs. You can't CCW in the bar area of a COP (Consume on premises) license establishment. That would be a restaurant like Red Lobster or Chilis.

gezzer
June 18, 2006, 11:28 PM
NH is easy, you can carry in a bar or anywhere that serves. Never has been a problem.

beerslurpy
June 18, 2006, 11:45 PM
Go into any restaurant, just dont sit at the bar. Most "bars" serve appetizers and stuff and have non-bar areas. In other words, dont worry about it.

Zen21Tao
June 20, 2006, 04:23 AM
What about a nightclub? Presumably, the dance floor isn't "which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to..." dispensing alcohol.

What else is sold in a night club to generate revenue? While people may do other things than drink it still makes the majority of its profit off of its drink sales. This means NO GUN.

Go into any restaurant, just dont sit at the bar. Most "bars" serve appetizers and stuff and have non-bar areas. In other words, dont worry about it.

The law specifically says you can not be where the majority of the profits come from alcohol sales. At the bar more profit is taken in from alcohol sales than food. On the other hand, at tables in a sectioned off area where food is served it is more than reasonable to assume the more sales come from food than alcohol. The simple rule of thumb in Florida is quite simple. Guns at a table while eating is ok. A gun at the bar anytime is illegal.

Billy_H
June 20, 2006, 01:38 PM
Not really much else left to say on the topic since it seems to have been covered pretty well.

I will recommend a book for anyone who is interested in Florida CCW laws. The book is written by one of the foremost authorities in Florida gun laws and does a great job of breaking down the laws into everyday wording, uses case law as examples and gives some pretty good insight into how ones actions can effect the legal outcome during a trial.

The author updates the book about every 2 years or when a new, large law is coming out (ie: Castle Doctrine in Oct, 05). He also gives updates on his website.

The book was given out as part of the CCW class that my wife and I took. I find myself going back to it often to refresh my memory on certain issues and to help answer questions from friends and other permit holders.


The book is called:
Florida Firearms
Law, Use & Ownership
by : Jon H. Gutmacher, Esq.

His Website HERE (http://www.floridafirearmslaw.com/index.shtml)

Andrew Rothman
June 23, 2006, 05:29 PM
Thanks to all for the info.

I read this sentence -- "any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose" -- to mean that any portion of an establishment NOT primarily devoted to dispensing alcohol is NOT prohibited.

The primary purpose of a dance floor is dancing; the primary purpose of the bar is dispensing.

Where's the flaw in that logic?

Billy_H, does the Gutmacher book say anything about this?

Hkmp5sd
June 23, 2006, 06:37 PM
Where's the flaw in that logic?


And you plan on spending the entire evening on the dance floor dancing?

And the dance floor has its own doorway leading to the parking lot so you do not need to pass through the illegal part of the establishment?

Sometimes you just need common sense. Logically, you could probably hang out in the restrooms, storeroom and broom closet as they don't normally serve drinks in those areas either. On the other hand, the cops might consider the entire location "a place of nuisance as defined in s. 823.05" and bust you anyway.

iiibdsiil
June 24, 2006, 01:22 AM
Most of the clubs here in Tampa you don't have to go anywhere near the bar, unless you are trying to buy a cute girl a drink ;)

And, here in Tampa, I think a club is one of the places you DEFINTELY need to carry. But, I also agree that it is NOT allowed, although I understand why there is some questions on the subject.

Some things to think about, do they do more in alcohol sales, or more on cover charges? Some of these clubs are $10, $12 to get in alone. I guess that if each person buys 2 or 3 drinks, it wouldn't be hard to beat that in alcohol sales, although there are a TON of people that can't buy alcohol in these places. The dance floor is FOR dancing, although people do drink there. Likewise, in a restaurant, the bar is for drinking, the tables are for eating. But you can drink at the tables that are not in the bar area.

any portion of an establishment licensed to dispense alcoholic beverages for consumption on the premises, which portion of the establishment is primarily devoted to such purpose;

What is the "such purpose" to be primarily devoted to in the statement? Such purpose to dispense, or such purpose to consume? Is the dance floor primarily devoted to either? Judging by the name "dance floor" I assume not.

But, like I said, I agree that carry at a club is not allowed. Although if one were to try it, I would hope their attorney was bright enough to at least try to poke some holes in it.

beerslurpy
June 24, 2006, 01:29 AM
Ok genius, ask to audit their books so you can determine what portions of the establishment you can sit in. Or you can just trust me on the "not at bar, youre fine" rule.

Even if you are at the bar, the cops arent going to bother you. More likely, they will never even know you are packing. Remember, CCW restrictions are all about resolving shoots than about controlling your behavior precisely. I have been in Florida for quite some time now and the cops have never asked to if I was carrying, nor have they ever frisked me. Even when I sit at a bar. Was I carrying at the time? Nobody will ever know.

If you have to draw your gun while sitting at the bar (say it gets robbed), YES, if they wanted to be pricks, they could charge you with a misdemeanor for having your gun while at the bar. Oh noes. That being said, as long as it was a good shoot, it still wouldnt make a difference in the civil suit afterwards because Florida has laws barring such suits from being brought as long as it was in self defense.

iiibdsiil
June 24, 2006, 01:33 AM
So, then are you saying as long as I'm not at the bar portion of a club I am okay?

beerslurpy
June 24, 2006, 01:41 AM
I dont know about a club. Many clubs serve no food whatsoever. But I dont hang out at clubs due to being an old fart. Well, oldish.

But many clubs, if I remember correctly, also have restaurant areas that serve food as well as drinks. You would be ok there as long as the "food" wasnt something like beer nuts or free pretzels. It has to be food you pay for.

iiibdsiil
June 24, 2006, 01:47 AM
Where does the food requirement come in? Am I missing a section of law here? Seriously.

Under what I posted up above, there is no requirement for food. It just requires that portion be not primarily devoted to whatever. What about a pool hall? They have a bar, and you can shoot pool. If they have a $12 to get in, play as much pool as you want, then the circumstance is the same as a club, no? Or are pool halls that serve alcohol at a bar off limits?

beerslurpy
June 24, 2006, 01:53 AM
Well that is the test right there. If people in that portion of the establishment are mostly consuming booze in place of doing other things, you cant hang out there when carrying. If people are mostly playing pool, then beverages arent the primary purpose of that area.

Food is important because if you go to a place like say "Bob's BBQ Pit" that has a bar and a dining area- there are places where people are eating meals and having a drink or two with the meal and there is a place where old guys hang out and drink beer for the most part. Carry is off limits there.

It would help to answer your questions if I had access to some sort of database of florida trials, but I have never heard of this ever being an issue that someone was arrested over.

I got a surprise in the florida statues. Apparently "using a firearm while intoxicated" refers only to discharging or holding a loaded firearm while drunk, not merely having it on your person. And you can claim self defense as a way out of this one as well.

iiibdsiil
June 24, 2006, 02:04 AM
So, it goes by what people are actually doing there, and not what the area is technically devoted to? If more people are in the bathroom drinking at a restaurant that serves alcohol, does that mean you can't go in there and take a leak? Since the door is closed before you go in, how do you know if you can go in legally? ;) Although probably not something that is gonna happen, point is the bathroom is primarily devoted to taking a leak. Wouldn't the area with pool tables be primarily devoted to playing pool? Or the dance floor (especially with that name) primarily devoted to dancing? Would we be in less of a gray area if they were labeled like bathrooms?

And, on a fun note, what about when the girls are dancing on the bar? :neener: :p

beerslurpy
June 24, 2006, 02:10 AM
No, the owners of the establishment primarily devote something. If people carry their drinks into another area, it doesnt change that. It's a vague section, but I think it is pretty easy to construe it using common sense. Obviously a bathroom isnt primarily devoted to serving beverages. It also isnt licensed to serve alcohol, the other element of the offense.

It has to be:
a) a place licensed to serve alcohol
b) and that place has to be primarily devoted to serving said alcohol

Affected:
-bar
-stand with a keg dispensing free beer
-booth with lady giving out samples of scotch

Not affected:
-tables where people are eating food or doing something other than primarily being served booze
-pool tables
-swimming pool
-tennis court
-bathroom
-coat room
-dog kennel
-etc

iiibdsiil
June 24, 2006, 02:23 AM
Well, of course the bathroom isn't licensed to serve alcohol, the establishment in general is.

But, your second part of the post supports my dance floor theory.

So, does the law apply to where the alcohol is primarily consumed, or primarily served?

I'm not trying to bicker little things, just trying to understand what the law is really trying to say. My common sense, your common sense, the policemans common sense, and the judges common sense might be ALL different.

beerslurpy
June 24, 2006, 06:53 AM
The website seems to be down at the moment, but look up the definition of place of nuisance under concealed carry. It is where the alcohol is served. "primarily devoted to serving alcohol." If they said bar, some clever lawyer type might make an alcohol serving area that didnt look like a traditional bar.

iiibdsiil
June 24, 2006, 11:43 AM
823.05 Places declared a nuisance; may be abated and enjoined.--Whoever shall erect, establish, continue, or maintain, own or lease any building, booth, tent or place which tends to annoy the community or injure the health of the community, or become manifestly injurious to the morals or manners of the people as described in s. 823.01, or shall be frequented by the class of persons mentioned in 1s. 856.02, or any house or place of prostitution, assignation, lewdness or place or building where games of chance are engaged in violation of law or any place where any law of the state is violated, shall be deemed guilty of maintaining a nuisance, and the building, erection, place, tent or booth and the furniture, fixtures and contents are declared a nuisance. All such places or persons shall be abated or enjoined as provided in ss. 60.05 and 60.06.

History.--s. 1, ch. 7367, 1917; RGS 5639; CGL 7832; s. 24, ch. 57-1; s. 66, ch. 74-383; s. 1, ch. 75-24; s. 41, ch. 75-298.

1Note.--Repealed by s. 3, ch. 72-133.


856.02 would be under the drunkeness statues, but there is no 856.02, there is an 856.021.

Still :confused:

Hkmp5sd
June 24, 2006, 11:51 AM
I'm not trying to bicker little things, just trying to understand what the law is really trying to say. My common sense, your common sense, the policemans common sense, and the judges common sense might be ALL different.

You and everyone else on the planet knows the what a bar is when they see one. Trying to break it down into specific areas of the bar is just stupid. Its like getting caught in a police raid of a massage parlor and trying to convince the cops that since you were in the bathroom at the time, they can't bust you for soliciting.

What the law is doing is allowing you to enter a Red Lobster and eat in the dining room while prohibiting you from entering the bar area where they are serving alcohol and no one is eating. When you walk into a Ruby Tuesdays, Hooters or any other similar establishment, you can tell right away where people are sitting and eating meals and the bar area where people are mostly drinking alcohol.

If you want to be a test case, go for it. It would be entertaining to watch the trial on Court TV.

iiibdsiil
June 24, 2006, 11:56 AM
So you are saying it is quite obvious a club is a bar? I'm not arguing bars, I'm arguing clubs. Club = for dancing, bar = for drinking

gunsmith
June 24, 2006, 12:09 PM
I don't drink at all, period. New Years eve, birthdays...nada!
That being said I will venture into bars for a soda at night or if there is a band
or an open mike so I can play my guitar and sing really offensive (to liberals)
songs about politicians...

FL,AZ etc need to update these dumb laws.
It's one on the reasons I love Reno.
I carry almost anywhere, it's never a hassle.

Hkmp5sd
June 24, 2006, 12:09 PM
So you are saying it is quite obvious a club is a bar?

Yes. The establishment is there to sell alcohol. They have a license to do so. The do not sell dances. Dancing, pool, video games and other activities are merely things you can do while drinking. You could argue that a topless bar is actually a place to sit and look at nude women dance and the only reason to go inside is because you want to watch. I'd agree completely. However, attempt to enter one and watch without ordering a drink. The bouncers will let you know real fast the purpose of the place is to sell alcohol.

It comes down to how far are you willing to push it. If you want to go into "clubs" and dance while armed, do so. You are the one that has to deal with the cops if there is ever a problem.

lacoochee
June 24, 2006, 03:35 PM
a second degree misdemeanor at the most, assuming you have a CWP.

MIL-DOT
June 24, 2006, 03:58 PM
FWIW, i got a permit in florida about two years ago. our instructor told us that bars were off limits, a restaraunt with a bar could be OK if the bar area was separate from the restaraunt and we stayed out of the bar area, this meant not even walking through it to go to the restroom.

beerslurpy
June 24, 2006, 07:41 PM
Are you intentionally being obtuse? "Place of nuisance" is a term that is defined within the concealed carry statute.

Damyanky
June 24, 2006, 07:56 PM
GO HERE AND READ IT FROM A FIREARMS ATTORNEY POV.. MOST FLORIDA PD'S USE IT FOR REFERENCE.


WWW.FLORIDAFIREARMSLAW.COM

Hkmp5sd
June 24, 2006, 08:17 PM
Are you intentionally being obtuse?

Actually, I'd say I'm remarkably patient. I was trying to demonstrate the purpose, goal, and/or reason of existing of such places is the sell acoholic beverages for consumption on the premises. Those places include dance floors and pool table areas. It doesn't matter what extra curricular activity is taking place, the primary function is the consumption of alcohol. Repeatedly trying to argue these areas would be excluded from areas where alcoholic beverages are consumed is the definition of obtuse.

FWIW, i got a permit in florida about two years ago. our instructor told us that bars were off limits, a restaraunt with a bar could be OK if the bar area was separate from the restaraunt and we stayed out of the bar area, this meant not even walking through it to go to the restroom.

As one that has been teaching the Florida CCW course for the past 18 years, that is exactly what I tell those attending my class.

lacoochee
June 24, 2006, 08:21 PM
Florida laws says you cannot carry in bars (we all know a bar when we see one). Having said that walking through the bar area to use a restroom or retrieve a coke will not get you arrested. Why? Because you are carrying concealed and you aren't doing anything wrong. If God forbid some maniac runs into the restaurant with an AK and you drop him, I highly doubt you will be prosecuted for carrying a concealed weapon in a bar, and bottom line even if you are, it's a second degree misdemeanor (because you have a CWP), you pay a fine and you don't lose the right to carry. Great!! Now we can all get along again. Now you want to have a real argument? Did you know you cannot carry a concealed weapon during a declared state of emergency in Florida? Found that out the other day, when I was looking at our 6 newest "pro" gun laws, you know, the one where they don't have the right now to confiscate firearms during a declared state of emergency. Saw that in there and was floored.

http://www.myfloridahouse.gov/Sections/Documents/loaddoc.aspx?FileName=_h0285__.doc&DocumentType=Bill&BillNumber=0285&Session=2006

Read line 42.

Hkmp5sd
June 24, 2006, 08:42 PM
Calm down. The law has read that way for at least 15 years that I know of. It isn't some new insertion.

lacoochee
June 24, 2006, 09:05 PM
I mean given that during an emergency is when I would most likely actually "need" my firearm. Also had I not read that particular law due to it's new portion, I would have had no clue that it would be illegal to carry a concealed weapon during a state of emergency (and if there is one place in the world that has a lot of emegencies it's Florida).

Fred Thompson
June 25, 2006, 08:21 PM
I have to agree with the Chief. If you can smoke in the establishment, you shouldn't be carrying there. It's a Florida thing...:D

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