[Keith]

Does it seem like the army has shown more flexibility, power and speed than the marines in this current war? It just seems like the right prong (the marines) have been lagging far behind the left (army) for the last weeks.

I have no doubt that the marines are equal (or even superior) as individual fighting men, but I can't help wondering if there is some deficiency in equipment, tactics or firepower.

Please, please, please don't take this as a criticism of the marines as a fighting force - they've certainly kicked butt all the way up Iraq. They just haven't kicked butt as fast as the army has done.

I don't know squat about mechanized warfare (ex-Coast Guard), so I'm wondering if standard army weaponry is simply superior, or is there some other reason?

[dude]

rest assured that there is no deficiency

............they both have VERY different missions and your observations are quite correct

they both perform their missions quite well btw

[bogie]

From what I've seen in Army vs. Marine conflicts, the MPs and the Shore Patrol usually end up on the winning side...

:neener:

[Jeff White]

Dude has it right. The Army is organized and equipped for the mission they are performing. And so are the Marines. The Marines are organized and equipped for forced entry from the sea. They have a limited armor capability. It appears that all the forces are being utilized in accordance with their strengths. A heavy Army division like the 3d ID would have a hard time making an amphibious assault or a vertical envelopment with all those Abrams and Bradleys.

Jeff

[Al Thompson]

Same church, different pews. Have zero knowledge of what was in front of them, but looks to me like CENTCOM selected the best tool(s) for the job(s).

[4v50 Gary]

What Dude says.

[Keith]

Well...

In light of all the trouble the marines are having getting to the center of Baghdad, wouldn't a second army division have been a better choice? Is the marine armor more vulnerable to the anti-tank weapons being used by the Iraqi's? I'm thinking marine armor is fairly light stuff compared to the M1 - is that true?

Or did the army people just have an easier road into the city?

The goal here is to cut the city in half. The army has been in the center of town for two days while the marines are still battling it out on the east side of town.

[Jeff White]

The Marines use the M1 Abrams as their MBT just like the Army does. They Marines don't have M2 Bradley IFVs. Their mechanized troops for the most part ride on amphibious tracks designed to carry Marines from a landing ship and across the beach. They do have a few battalions of LAV-25 wheeled vehicles that have essentially the same turrert the Bradley does (minus the TOW).

There is a 2d Army heavy division on the way. it remains to be seen if Baghdad will fall before the 4th ID gets there.

We're doing fine....

Jeff

[Scott Evans]

The Marines have been heavily engaged their entire course toward Baghdad. At what point have they not preformed to satisfaction?

There is a big difference between an Army Armor division and a MEF. A more rational comparison would be a Ranger or airborne division. A Marine Expeditionary Force brings an infantry element that is superbly blended with supporting assets (armor, artillery, air and so on). As such the Marines are far more flexible a force than an army armored division but as a unit they put forth more firepower then either Rangers or Airborne.

The ability of theater commanders to select units and match them to specific roles suited to their designed purpose is part of what makes the US Armed Forces so incredibility efficient they can overthrow whole countries in a matter of a few weeks.

All the US forces however; are composed of well trained, courageous, selfless individuals. I love them all!

[Leatherneck]

Look at the assault routes of the respective forces. The Third ID gets to run fast through the desert, circumnavigating all cities before Baghdad; the Marines skirt Basra in coordination with the Brits, then get to slog the more marshy lowlands through town after town all the way to Baghdad.

The public reaction is "The attack has bogged down." This is where it gets interesting. Remember Colonel Dowdy, Commander of the First Marine Regiment that got relieved? Watch the news tomorrow for a story relating these two themes. :cool:

TC
TFL Survivor
edited for typo

[moa]

Leatherneck, why was Col. Dowdy removed from command?

Marine Gen. Peter Pace was on Meet the Press last week-end, and he refused to say why the Colonel was replaced.

I think Gen. Pace is Deputy Chief of the Joint Chiefs.

Please advise. Cannot depend on being here tomorrow to see the news. :D

[ZekeLuvs1911]

My guess about Col. Dowdy is that he was not aggressive nor fast enough up to Baghdad as his superiors wanted him to be......:rolleyes:

[Blackhawk]

dude nailed it.

I'm EXTREMELY proud of all our branches in this war.

[Waitone]

A paintbrush makes a poor axe. Can't effective cut wood with a paintbrush.

Different tools for different jobs.

Armored units just love open ground, not happy around water.

Marine units are not as heavily armed but the do much better around water.

IIRC the eastern flank in Iraq had significantly more water than the western flank.

If the Marines were slowed down it was because the opposition was different. I heard a report the Marines were encountering considerable transnational Arab terrs to the extent of having to fix bayonets to deal with the problem.

Army, Navy, Air Force, Marines. . . .makes no difference. The taxpayer gets full value for its investment.

[telewinz]

I admit right off that I am an Army man and always have been. I have always felt the Army had the overall best techniques and mind-set. That being said I feel their is more to the situation than the amount of armor available. Commanders of both branches were pretty much given a blank check for any "extra units" they might feel the need for. The Marines fight just as hard and well as the Army and can be just as well armed. I have a feeling someone at the highest levels of the Marine Corps made a mis-judgement about what the Marines would need against Iraq. The 3rd ID isn't an armored division but the Army almost always has the built-in ability to"hedge" its bets and inherently travels heavier than a similar sized Marine unit. This and the fact that the Marines will often times go out of their way to rely on their own Marine air power when a little more help from the Air Force should be in the asking. 90% of the time this has worked out well for the Marines because it does have its advantages but this time I think they may be traveling too light and have not gained the inherent (expected) benefit. Who created their T.O.E for the mission and signed-off on it? The Marines could have asked for some Army armor to be attached to their units if they felt the need, and maybe they should have.

[TheLastBoyScout]

The Marines are not up to doing what the army has been doing. The army division is heavily mechanized infantry, while the Marines are extremely well trained shock infantry.

Mechanized infantry can cover huge land distances by the use of vehicles, but the Marines do not have the numbers of fighting vehicles to do that.

However, the Marines have been owning whatever ground they DID reach.

[SquirrelNuts]

The Marine Corps was never designed to cover large areas of land. Part of the theory behind the training and organization of the Marine Corps is that almost every major city in the world is within 50 miles of a body of water, be it a river or ocean. Marines are naval infantry, not plain infantry.

-SquirrelNuts

[Blackhawk]

moa, check this thread about Col Dowdy: http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=17596

[ahadams]

Okay my experience has been entirely Army, but it looks more to me as though CENTCOM threw the Brits at Basra and sent the US Marines up one route with the idea that the Republican Guard would see them as a major threat which had to be neutralized before they could link up with anyone (remember that 1000 vehicle column that came south out of Baghdad trying to use that sandstorm as cover...and *almost* made it? they weren't aimed at 3rd ID (Mech)). Meanwhile 3 ID comes trundling up the other route and ends up knocking on Baghdad's front door with Bradley's and a bunch of heavy armor and *whoops* the Republican Guard almost all got themselves massacred trying to hit back at the Brits and Marines.

Of course both 3 ID and the Marines are now doing the really hard part which is taking out the remaining diehards in Baghdad proper, but it sure was nice of SH to let a whole Mech division get all the way to his door step with the loss of one maintenance company, and less than a dozen armored vehicles, don't you think?