LEO's--how do you really feel


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Mayo
January 7, 2006, 11:15 PM
about people with CCW? I have 2 LEO's that I'm good friends with. 1 has no problems with it while the other says he would prefer that people not carry. If you pull someone over, are you generally favorable to a person with a CCW or treat them differently? Thanks.

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IV Troop
January 7, 2006, 11:55 PM
It is all about the behavior of the person. If you act like a decent and considerate human being you tend to get treated one way. If you act like a jackass or a whack job you tend to get treated another. Overall, I could care less. I have had many a "quick" traffic stop end up in a twenty minute discussion on cool guns, places to hunt or shoot and other things.

Mayo
January 8, 2006, 12:28 AM
Well, I haven't been pulled over since I got my CCW, but before I did I always got my license, Reg. and insurance out, rolled down the window, turned on the dome light and put my hands at 10 and 2.
My point however is do you treat them differently knowing they have a
concealed weapon on them before you approach?

stevelyn
January 8, 2006, 12:02 PM
I couldn't care less and believe people should carry whatever they wish. The one's I've stopped that have presented a CHL to me, I've cut loose with a warning simply because as a CHL holder they're responsible citizens and a citation is unnecessary to get them to comply.

A lot is to be said about the attitude check, as I don't believe in using traffic enforcement to extort revenue for govt. Good attitude will get you a warning. Being confrontational and acting like an honor graduate from the Outhouse University School of Law and I'll get writers cramp from the cites you'll be issued.

LE is a 95-5 proposition. IOW we deal with about 5% of the population about 95% of the time. Those 5% are the frequent fliers and problem children.
Other than the occassional first time DUIs we generally don't have much contact with the rest of the population.

Fed168
January 9, 2006, 12:53 AM
It's a good thing. Everyone I have had business dealings with has been forthcoming in the fact that they are carrying. I like to see folks who believe in self preservation. And we chat about guns, etc as well.

nyresq
January 9, 2006, 03:16 AM
As a LEO I fully support citizens with concieled handguns as long as they are willing to get some training in the proper use and handling of firearms as it relates to concieled carry.

Along that same line I do have a problem and its not as a LEO, its as a regular joe on the street.

my problem is with the fact that you send away $50 and two months later can strap on a hogleg and go struttin around looking for the oppertunity to be a hero and stop a hold up at the local 7-11, or to go looking for a fight at the local Bar cause you know you got "some backup" tucked under your "armed and dangerous" T-shirt. If you don't think it happens, believe me it does, and when some idiot jumps into something and screws the pooch, thats the one the media blasts all over the TV and front page... They never show the good citizen who holds the mugger down while waiting for the cops, or the one who stops the home invasion with his grampa's .38, that doesn't make good headlines and doesn't feed the anti gun liberals who want to outlaw guns.
The wackos are not the majority, or even a large percentage, but in all seriousness how many people out there with a ccw permit have had ANY formal training and I don't mean the stupid 8 hours in a class room so I can get my permit BS? That percentage is going to be very, very small.
There are very few "shall issue" states that mandate any kind of training to get a ccw permit and the ones that do offer up some joke of a class and send people on their way. Even the states that make it incredibly hard to get a permit (NY,NJ etc) don't have any requirements once you get through the red tape phase of the process.

Leo's in every agency from federal and state, to the local podunk police force send their officers through days and weeks of firearms training to allow them to carry a gun. The law has nothing to do with firearms training. Sending rounds down range has nothing to do with the decision to take a life or the legal justification that has to be questioned before doing so. firearms training only teaches proper firearms handling and procedures.

I am sure to start a flame war, :fire: but my opinion as a citizen and as a LEO is that I don't think $50 or $100 and being able to properly fill out the paperwork should be the only requirements to carry a handgun in public.
Yes, everyone has a right to defend themselves, but not while placing my life in danger while doing so because you can't handle your weapon in a proper manner.

fire at will:rolleyes:

hwp
January 9, 2006, 03:27 AM
I have to be honest and say that the above post sounds exactly like what I would expect from a NY police officer.

I left police work for greener pastures 4 years ago but I never met another officer at my dept. that had a problem with ccw. Then again I didn't work in the northeast.

Boogyman
January 9, 2006, 03:47 AM
I had a CCW when I lived in Washington State and the two times I was pulled over I was asked to get out of my vehicle and allow the officer to remove my weapon from my holster. Then I was detained for about 45 minutes while the officer ran every check in the book on me and my weapon. They then reluctantly returned my pistol when they couldn't find anything else to hassle me with.
When I moved to this small town in Missouri they didn't have permits here until last year. When I applied for mine our County Sherriff bent over backwards to help me every way he could to assure that I got my permit no problem, to the point of recommending an NRA Practical class taught by his brother at a reduced fee. He encourages everyone in his jurisdiction to get their CCW and to carry a weapon. Our county has the lowest crime rate in the state.

nyresq
January 9, 2006, 03:48 AM
haven't been a NY cop since 1998..... been in federal law enforcement since dec 1998... CITP 901 for those in the know... aside from that I can't be more specific. still work in ny though and have traveled all over this country and several overseas in an official capacity.

I have no problem with citizens CCW, but I don't think a check and some paperwork, that may or may not have even been filled out by them, proves they are responsible enough to carry a gun in public. go get some training and take what they teach you and use it to hone your skill with a pistol. I see far too many people in gun stores that bring in guns and ask the guy behind the counter how to unload it with out pulling the trigger, or whats the best way to carry it, or is this revolver safe with the hammer cocked back etc etc etc..... I saw a man walk in the other day with an empty 9mm ammo box and tell the man behind the counter "I need another box of these..." the saleman told the box holder he didn't carry that brand (norma) but had some federal in the same weight. The clueless wonder then said "well, are those the right bullets for my gun????" and before you question if he was refering to the gr weight, no.. he didn't know what caliber his pistol was, he only knew that the place where he bought it sold him a box of bullets at the same time and he just always got the same ones.... this idiot showed his carry license (full carry, no restrictions guy was a lawyer who had a few friends in police HQ pistol section), paid his money and walked out the door with his box of bullets.

yea, he makes the streets safer cause he has a gun under his jacket...

IndianaDean
January 9, 2006, 04:00 AM
I took a couple of different courses from instructors who are LEOs when I first got my ccw. I'm very glad I did too. Because there are alot of things that can happen that can trip up an untrained ccw'er. I recommend folks get as much training as they can afford.

Alex45ACP
January 9, 2006, 04:15 AM
Yes training is always good, but it should definitely not be a requirement.

swampsniper
January 9, 2006, 04:15 AM
I have a retired NYC cop as a friend. Several years ago, he asked me what the best home defense shotgun was. In talking with this guy, it became obvious that he knew less about guns and gun handling than my 13 year old grandson does. He knows more now, most of it learned from my grandson and I.
I wonder how many NYC cops can go out with an iron sighted .22, and consistently make head shots on squirrels. The kids around here make fun of people that mess up good meat with body shots.
Maybe some folks need long courses of training, but others get well trained, by beginning not long after they are weaned.
Out here where I live there is not a house that is not armed. People push their lawnmowers with a pistol on their belt, you don't want to hit a cottonmouth with the mower, you never know which side the head is coming out on. For some reason, no one gets careless, no one gets crazy.
It is too bad you have a lot of problems with misuse of guns in NYC. Maybe you just have more crazy people there.
I have no problem with whatever y'all want to do up there, but every time I turn around, some New Yorker, or some Canadian, and now, even some Mexicans, are whining because no one else meets their standards for being "allowed" freedom. I sure do get tired of all that whining!:D

UWstudent
January 9, 2006, 04:52 AM
I had a CCW when I lived in Washington State and the two times I was pulled over I was asked to get out of my vehicle and allow the officer to remove my weapon from my holster. Then I was detained for about 45 minutes while the officer ran every check in the book on me and my weapon. They then reluctantly returned my pistol when they couldn't find anything else to hassle me with.


I agree.
In the state of WA, if you EVER get pulled over.. you will be given a citation (100% on highways). I have not been pulled over since I got my CCW, but the few times I have been pulled over (for even going a few mph over), they'll find something to get you for. And please, for the people that are getting ahead of themselves and think it's something that's character or attitude related, its not. I'm one of the most modest guys I know and everyone else I know of that lives in this state has similar experiences (unless they're a hot blonde chick of course)..

I do not know what kind of pressure WA LEO's are under, but whatever it is.. it's messed them up.

pax
January 9, 2006, 05:32 AM
Hmmmm.

I've been pulled over *mumbletymummblemumble* times here in WA, and haven't had a ticket in years. Fact is, last time I got pulled over (speeding, again, dangit, I do try but when I get daydreaming my foot lives a life of its own...) where was I? Oh yeah. Got pulled over, after dark. Pulled off, turned my dome light on, got the window down, shut the engine, tossed wallet on dash and put hands on steering wheel. Up comes officer. Apologized straight up for speeding. He asked for license & registration & insurance. I very slowly picked up wallet, handed him license & CPL. He barely glanced at CPL. I said, the registration & insurance are in glove box, okay to have the kid in passenger seat dig 'em out? He agreed, kid produced the paperwork after much digging. Officer looked at names on paperwork, noted that they matched the name on the driver's license, told me to slow down and have a good evening. End of story.

Not an unusual encounter. Past ten years or so ...

Husband got pulled over for a busted tail light. Had a good visit with officer.

I got pulled over for "swerving" -- officer thought I might be drunk. (Hadn't had a drink in I dunno how long before that, years though.) Pretty well just glanced in the window, did the routine above, commented that he could tell I hadn't been drinking, and told me to drive safe now. Again, no visible reaction to CPL but he did relax slightly.

Husband got pulled over for a busted tail light. (Different vehicle.) Officer told him the deal and that was all.

I got pulled over for speeding. Apologized as officer came up to the window. Kid in the back seat, then age 3, started fussying/worrying about mommy going to jail. I said, "excuse me officer," turned to the kid and said, "mommy's not going to go to jail. The officer is just telling me that I should not have been driving so fast. He might give me a piece of paper that says I have to pay a special tax because I broke the speed limit, but he doesn't like to put people in jail unless they deserve it. I was speeding, so I deserve to have to pay so I won't do it again, but the officer is a good officer so he won't put anyone in jail." Officer said, "That's right, ma'am. You drive more carefully now." End of story.

Worst one I know of was when I was riding in the van with a friend driving. He got pulled over for a busted tail light (NO, not the same one. We're just good at this stuff, k?) Officer came up to the window. Buddy handed out driver's license & CPL. Officer wanted to take control of the gun, no big deal, his perogative. But in doing so, he swept me. GRRRR. I ducked, he apologized, he took the gun back to his car to do whatever. Officer was plainly much relieved to have control of that gun. Funny thing was, every other adult in the vehicle was armed, and he was relieved because he'd just gotten the firearm away from the only person for whom he had positive ID. Uh, no ticket then, either.

I did get a ticket 9 or maybe 10 years back, when we first moved here. Pretty sure I flunked the attitude test on that one. Not intentionally, but I was about to bust my bladder (which was why I was speeding home) and so I'm sure I wasn't pleasant & relaxed and officer figured something wasn't right. *shrug* Had it coming to me, because I was speeding. They don't have to let you off!

pax

Eisande
January 9, 2006, 06:30 AM
i have no problems with my fellow citizens carrying protection. and I don't mean condoms.

seriously, I have responded to calls where armed citizens were present. I am ok with it and just ask that they don't carry when we are actually on scene.

i once had a newer officer ask me to assist him on a traffic stop. turns out the guy he stopped was the manager of a restaurant in a tough part of town. the manager, who closes up shop (where he is the only guy, and has about 6 teen age girl waitresses as staff) was stopped and was found out to be carrying a pistol under his seat. the pistol was in a case, loaded, but concealed. misdemeanor if you go by the letter of the law in our state.
this guy is super clean, no record, very cooperative, and has a pretty darn good reason to be carrying IMHO.
i suggested we advise him of the letter of the law, we made sure the pistol was not reported stolen (serial # check) and then disassembled it for him and sent him home.

spirit of the law vs. letter of the law

grimjaw
January 9, 2006, 07:08 AM
WA state, must be where you get pulled over. :scrutiny:

I'm still driving without my front license plate, and haven't been pulled over yet. If I did, I worry more about what they'll think of the garbage strewn about my car than my pistol. Honestly, since I left the east coast, I rarely feel the need to speed. I've had remarkably fewer encounters with law enforcement since I started doing that. Imagine that! :rolleyes:

jmm

UWstudent
January 9, 2006, 07:42 AM
in the great city of tacoma. where the PD has the best reputation in the nation.. in fact, just type in "David Brame" in google and just see how cool we are

Shootcraps
January 9, 2006, 08:17 AM
nyresq makes a good point. There probably are a lot of citizens carrying that could benefit from a little extra training beyond what their license calls for. I have seen people at the range who knew little beyond, "Point it that way and pull the trigger". Carrying concealed IS a big responsibility.

But, even though they get a fair amount of training, not all LEOs are gun folks. It's been estimated that 60-75% of them just look at it as part of their job and do the minimum necessary to qualify. I've heard of cops who only visit the range a week before their quals so they can practice up. ;)

I've been back in Virginia almost two years and haven't been pulled over yet (knock on wood). I have heard the city cops are generally unfriendly to CCW. With luck, I'll never find out. ;)

The Drew
January 9, 2006, 10:09 AM
The wackos are not the majority, or even a large percentage, but in all seriousness how many people out there with a ccw permit have had ANY formal training and I don't mean the stupid 8 hours in a class room so I can get my permit BS? That percentage is going to be very, very small.

In all seriousness, how many LEO's get any more training than that? It's a pretty small percentage. Add to that the fact that MOST LEO's don't give a damn about their marksmanship because their gun is just another tool. All the armed citizens I know who carry regularly practice with their weapons on a regular basis (not just once or twice a year for qualification). They also know the law, and know when drawing that weapon is appropriate according to the law, and when firing that weapon is appropriate within the law.

I suggest you check the stats in florida, and see how many times their CCW was abused, they have plenty of real good detailed data about revocations, and crimes committed by CCW holders. The "wackos" are such a small minority that they are negligible. What is the percentage if "wackos" that get hired into Law enforcement? I'll bet the percentage is much higher, since there is much greater opportunity to abuse their power...

The Drew
January 9, 2006, 10:13 AM
seriously, I have responded to calls where armed citizens were present. I am ok with it and just ask that they don't carry when we are actually on scene.



Do you have them draw their pistol and unload it there? Seems to me it would be a better policy to just leave it holstered.

Harve Curry
January 9, 2006, 02:02 PM
The problem with New York and firearms/handguns is the Sullivan Law which has effected the knowledge, understanding, and thinking of the general population about handguns and the 2nd Amendment for 100 years now. It is a rarity to see handguns there or people who really know much about them.

Eisande
January 9, 2006, 02:35 PM
----"Do you have them draw their pistol and unload it there? Seems to me it would be a better policy to just leave it holstered."

The times we encounter the situation is when responding to a residence or business, in which case I would ask them to leave the weapon inside (assuming the BG isn't in there of course).

Since I am in the Los Angeles area we RARELY see CCW permits, but if that was the case, CCW holder detaining BG's, we would probably have them set the gun down, we pick it up, determine who is who in the zoo, and then I would give them their gun back. I am probably in the minority in LE due to a greater interest in firearms AND second amendment issues.

EghtySx
January 9, 2006, 02:35 PM
What kills me are people who think that just because they are in NY or Kali they can make rules for the rest of us. What you people do there, how you live, your habits and knowledge, are so different from someone living in ... well, pretty much anywhere else, that you have no idea what it is like in the real world. Your culture is entirely different from the cultures of other areas. That's why we have states. Do what you want in your own backyard and leave the rest of us alone. Just because you big city wierdos can't handle something doesn't mean you have to try and pass laws controlling the rest of us. Many of us grew up with our guns and with no formal training can handle them better in our teens than you ever will.

Point is, every place is different. Do what you gotta do in in freakville, leave the normals alone.

Boogyman
January 9, 2006, 05:57 PM
Hmmmm.

I've been pulled over *mumbletymummblemumble* times here in WA, and haven't had a ticket in years. Fact is, last time I got pulled over (speeding, again, dangit, I do try but when I get daydreaming my foot lives a life of its own...) where was I? Oh yeah. Got pulled over, after dark. Pulled off, turned my dome light on, got the window down, shut the engine, tossed wallet on dash and put hands on steering wheel. Up comes officer. Apologized straight up for speeding. He asked for license & registration & insurance. I very slowly picked up wallet, handed him license & CPL. He barely glanced at CPL. I said, the registration & insurance are in glove box, okay to have the kid in passenger seat dig 'em out? He agreed, kid produced the paperwork after much digging. Officer looked at names on paperwork, noted that they matched the name on the driver's license, told me to slow down and have a good evening. End of story.

Not an unusual encounter.

pax

No offense, Pax, but you are a woman, and possibly an attractive one, and male police officers do tend to treat women differently. I'm not saying it's o.k, but it is a reality. Having kids in the car helps also.
As a single male, my experiences in WA have been a little different. (see my earlier post)
Having said that, I believe if I had broken the speed limit as often as you do, I probably would have gotten a lot more tickets, therefore learning my lesson.
This may be a good argument for more female officers, just to balance things out...:p

pax
January 9, 2006, 06:02 PM
No offense, Pax, but you are a woman, and possibly an attractive one...
Fat. Middle aged.

Notice how often my husband has had the same experience. He drives at least 50,000 miles a year (often more), no kids in the car most the time. Hasn't had a ticket here in at least 9 years, though he's been pulled over a few times.

pax

Boogyman
January 9, 2006, 06:15 PM
Hey, don't be hard on yourself. Beauty comes from within... (I'm a fat, middle-aged guy)
Hey, just the fact that your a women with kids in the car makes a difference. I know I would be less leary if I was an LEO in that situation.

Coronach
January 9, 2006, 06:18 PM
I have no problems with the law-abiding citizenry CCWing. I have a grave problem with the criminals doing it. I'm also bright enough to recognize that the latter group does it anyway, regardless of the state of CCW laws. ;)

While merely possessing a CCW license does not automatically make someone a good guy (we've had a few arrests: trafficking in narcotics, legally CCWing a gun taken in a burglary), I can't think of too many better indicators of someone being OK. I'm much less worried about the nervous guy with the S&W 642 and the CCW card than I am the hard thug with a rap sheet as long as my arm and a Lorcin in his pocket.

Mike

Coronach
January 9, 2006, 06:21 PM
Oh, and I agree with the comment about the Sullivan Law skewing people's perceptions in NYC. RIght now, the only people NYPD encounter with guns CCWed are other cops and criminals. We're going through the same thing here in the Buckeye State. The more excitable officers and politicians are still waiting for the tidal surge of blood to roll down the streets, now that CCW is legal. It has to happen...it must...Toby Hoover told us it would...

In a few years we'll wonder what all the fuss was about.

Mike

c_yeager
January 9, 2006, 06:34 PM
No offense, Pax, but you are a woman, and possibly an attractive one, and male police officers do tend to treat women differently. I'm not saying it's o.k, but it is a reality. Having kids in the car helps also.
As a single male, my experiences in WA have been a little different. (see my earlier post)
Having said that, I believe if I had broken the speed limit as often as you do, I probably would have gotten a lot more tickets, therefore learning my lesson.
This may be a good argument for more female officers, just to balance things out...:p

Im a 26 year old male in metro Seattle, not particularly clean-cut and have had a CPL since my 21st birthday. I've been pulled over a dozen or so times, never recieved a ticket. I have met some real jerks though (state patrol).

It really depends on which agency is pulling you over. If you get nailed by a motorcycle cop or a WSP car you are gonna get a ticket, otherwise it depends on various factors, but no guarantees.

I've met the full spectrum of attitudes towards CCW from police officers. Everything from the blindingly ignorant MMM types to outright libertarians. We dont get anything approaching a random-sample on this site so there isnt really much stock in what we read here.

280PLUS
January 9, 2006, 06:43 PM
I too would like to see more people take it upon themselves to train regularly with their CCWs. Here in CT we have some local guys with fairly decent credentials willing to take their spare time and show you stuff for FREE and I am always surprised that so few people take advantage of this. At the very least they will improve you and your loved ones chances of survival and lessen those of the BGs. I'd go so far as to say that IMHO it is irresponsible for a CCW to not strive to become and remain proficient with their weapon.

Michael Courtney
January 9, 2006, 07:07 PM
but in all seriousness how many people out there with a ccw permit have had ANY formal training and I don't mean the stupid 8 hours in a class room so I can get my permit BS? That percentage is going to be very, very small.



I teach the class required for a CHL in Ohio.

My experience is that most students who take my CHL course already have considerable firearms experience, are knowledgable and responsible shooters, and have had considerable practice and training in addition to the course.
Many are also hunters, which means that they have also had the benefit of a hunter education course, which includes many of the same aspects of firearms safety.

Ohio also requires students to re-take a CHL course on a regular basis to maintain their license.

Personally, I've been averaging about two training courses per year and thousands of rounds of ammunition. This is a bit higher than most of my students, but your suggestion that most CHL holders have no training other than the 8 hour course (Ohio requires 12 hours) is simply not born out by my experience.

Michael Courtney

The Drew
January 9, 2006, 07:08 PM
The reason I shoot IDPA and attend other club shoots is to improve my gun skills, preferably while under stress. I have no dillusions that IDPA will give me super goblin killing powers, but I take it for what it is, an exercise that makes you think on your feet and are required to shoot well and fast if you intend to do well.

Shootcraps
January 9, 2006, 08:12 PM
What kills me are people who think that just because they are in NY or Kali they can make rules for the rest of us. What you people do there, how you live, your habits and knowledge, are so different from someone living in ... well, pretty much anywhere else, that you have no idea what it is like in the real world. Your culture is entirely different from the cultures of other areas. That's why we have states. Do what you want in your own backyard and leave the rest of us alone. Just because you big city wierdos can't handle something doesn't mean you have to try and pass laws controlling the rest of us. Many of us grew up with our guns and with no formal training can handle them better in our teens than you ever will.

Point is, every place is different. Do what you gotta do in in freakville, leave the normals alone.


Very passionate. ;) And a good post.

Shootcraps
January 9, 2006, 08:13 PM
The problem with New York and firearms/handguns is the Sullivan Law which has effected the knowledge, understanding, and thinking of the general population about handguns and the 2nd Amendment for 100 years now. It is a rarity to see handguns there or people who really know much about them.


Very good post. A lot of people don't understand the affect that law has had.

perpster
February 15, 2006, 11:36 AM
nyresq makes a good point. There probably are a lot of citizens carrying that could benefit from a little extra training beyond what their license calls for. I have seen people at the range who knew little beyond, "Point it that way and pull the trigger". Carrying concealed IS a big responsibility.

But, even though they get a fair amount of training, not all LEOs are gun folks. It's been estimated that 60-75% of them just look at it as part of their job and do the minimum necessary to qualify. I've heard of cops who only visit the range a week before their quals so they can practice up. ;)

I realize this is an oldish thread, but I just had to say that many LEO's DON'T just visit the range a week before their quals to practice up---they just go to the range to qualify period!

BTW, you can't get a driver's license without at least a written and road test. Why shouldn't there be at least one or the other to get a gun license? I'm not a hunter, but if I'm not mistaken, to get a hunting license you have to take a hunter's safety course, right?

engineer151515
February 15, 2006, 11:50 AM
<<< Not LEO.

Not even ex-LEO.

But ... with all the comments regarding CCW training, wouldn't it be nice if a proper gun safety course (complete with CCW regs review) be part of a high school elective offering?




< POP >


Oh man, I was dreaming again.


Just to show how drastically things have changed, my JrROTC high school class did the same before we went out to the back 40 on the school property and marksman qualified with 22 rifles. That was 1979. I bet they don't do that today.

:(

Harve Curry
February 15, 2006, 12:45 PM
We should ALL have to train and qualify on the same test. The only paper work required should be your birth certificate and a photo ID (like your drivers license).
LEO's prove everyday their no better then the rest of us, and some are alot worse.

GruntII
February 15, 2006, 01:31 PM
I'm a 15 year veteran of LE and I am a constitutionalist. I think you should be able to carry without a permit and the only place you can't carry should be court rooms(not court houses but rooms) and jails/prisons. Cops don't carry in those 2 places either except for those working and doing the job. I would love to see the current hoopla over Katrina bring communities back to having town/city/community sponsored militias. I don't believe in quailification or tests to carry becasue the government has no business saying who may or may not carry.As the saying goes "what part of shall not be infrimnged don't people get"?

Currently I am seriously considering leaving LE due to the changes I see in the caliber of the people, the attitudes of the people , and the coming internal problems in america. The police today have an attitude of I will because I can and I am above you. It is an arrogant , damn near facist attitude and it is growing.Do not get me wrong there are good people out ther but they are becoming fewer and fewer. I know what side I am on and it is of the people and constitution so it may be best for me to leave.

exoduster18
February 15, 2006, 01:31 PM
Engineer151515 - I think that would be a great idea. In the elementary school I went to we had to pass the Hunter's Safety Course in order to go from 6th grade into seventh. I think more schools should do this. I enjoyed it.

Harve Curry
February 15, 2006, 03:04 PM
GruntII , Could be we need more people like you on the job or their won't be any.

AllisonDT
February 15, 2006, 03:13 PM
I realize this is an oldish thread, but I just had to say that many LEO's DON'T just visit the range a week before their quals to practice up---they just go to the range to qualify period!

BTW, you can't get a driver's license without at least a written and road test. Why shouldn't there be at least one or the other to get a gun license? I'm not a hunter, but if I'm not mistaken, to get a hunting license you have to take a hunter's safety course, right?

Why? Because there isn't an Amendment to the Constitution of this country that says your right to drive a car shall never be infringed. THAT'S why.

Just_a_dude_with_a_gun
February 15, 2006, 04:04 PM
I'm not a LEO, and being from the N.E., I understand what the former NY LEO was saying, and it is valid. However, I see a parallel situation very similarly, one that some may not like to hear.

These days, (last 10-20 years) the NYPD (or any other N.E. anti-zone) police academy is packed full of people that, thanks to the restrictive laws in NY/NYC//NJ, haven't a clue how a gun works, and had no prior interest.
That could be equally as dangerous Infact, the only Accidental discharge I have ever witnessed in a range or gunshop was a "new-ish" policeman putting one in the floor of Scott Moss/Forest and Field in Norwalk, Ct.

The aptitude for safe handling firearms covers both sides of the fence.

Highland Ranger
February 15, 2006, 10:04 PM
I'd submit that you're not going to get the most scientific results from the members of THR as we're, for the most part on the RKBA side of the fence.

Optical Serenity
February 15, 2006, 10:43 PM
I'm an LEO at the State level, and no...I don't mind people having a GA Firearms License or an out of state CCW. In fact, I wish more people had it!

That doesn't mean I think everyone with a CCW is responsible enough to have a gun on all the time, but then, I don't think every person with a driver's license is responsible enough to drive.

Here in GA we praise people with a GA Firearms License... Sometimes I give tips to people who carry open, like if they have a really junky holster and it looks like the gun is gonna fall off or if they just look like a hoodlum open carrying.

Like I tell people, there is responsibility when you carry. Especially when you OPEN carry. Regardless of who you are, a cop or citizen. Sometimes I see people wearing t-shirts that say something wild like "Your mama tasted great last night" and they have a nylon piece of junk holster that doesn't even have a top snap on it with a gun hanging off their shorts that don't even have a belt. I tell them if they wear some nice khaki's, a polo shirt with no logo, and a nice belt, nice holster...people won't even notice.

Here in GA, its great...rarely do people notice a gun on someone...

Back on topic though, LEOs for the most part support CCW and the 2nd Amendment.

In fact, More LEOs support CCW/2nd Amendment/Gun hobby than the other way around. There's more hatred for LEOs here than most anywhere else on the net I've seen. And before you say it, two of my good friends work for the BATFE, both are NRA life members, both are members of gun clubs, and both support the 2nd Amendment and the gun hobby 100%...

Travis McGee
February 15, 2006, 11:52 PM
Great thread.
And God bless all those who have to strap on armor to go to work, so that I don't.

Harve Curry
February 16, 2006, 12:16 AM
Optical Serenity; QUOTE: "......In fact, More LEOs support CCW/2nd Amendment/Gun hobby than the other way around. There's more hatred for LEOs here than most anywhere else on the net I've seen. And before you say it, two of my good friends work for the BATFE, both are NRA life members, both are members of gun clubs, and both support the 2nd Amendment and the gun hobby 100%...
_________________________________________________________________

I've noticed critisism more then hate.

BATFE, NRA life and support the 2nd Amendment? Somebody's confused and it ain't me. You cannot work for that organization, believe in your job and support the 2nd Amendment (or the Constitution for that matter) at the same time.

"Support the gun hobby"? must be a LEO phrase.

I had a good friend (now deceased) who was an accomplished lifelong shooter. He won the National Metalic Sillouttes at 3 Points Range in Arizona with a Ruger SB he customized and ammo he loaded. When one of his sons told him he was joining the BATF in California he said "son, when you visit you come see me after 11pm and leave before 6am." And he wasn't kidding.

beerslurpy
February 16, 2006, 01:10 AM
I have no problems with the law-abiding citizenry CCWing. I have a grave problem with the criminals doing it. I'm also bright enough to recognize that the latter group does it anyway, regardless of the state of CCW laws. ;)

While merely possessing a CCW license does not automatically make someone a good guy (we've had a few arrests: trafficking in narcotics, legally CCWing a gun taken in a burglary), I can't think of too many better indicators of someone being OK. I'm much less worried about the nervous guy with the S&W 642 and the CCW card than I am the hard thug with a rap sheet as long as my arm and a Lorcin in his pocket.

Mike

OMG common sense!

About the WA state cops, that sucks, but it reminds me of FL State troopers. I have had pleasant dealings with Pasco and Hernando deputies but the state troopers are ass-hats, as are the deputies in Clearwater/St Pete area. Too many bored cops and not enough criminals to chase. The state guys are basically just revenuers.

I have heard rumors that Sheriff Nugent is hostile to CCW and gun ownership in general, but since I didnt have to ask his permission, it never came up. May have just been an axe to grind with the guy who told me though.

edit: I'm not law enforcement, but I'm hoping to become a law arguer in the next 3 years.

fantacmet
February 16, 2006, 01:16 AM
Citizen here.

"Worst one I know of was when I was riding in the van with a friend driving. He got pulled over for a busted tail light (NO, not the same one. We're just good at this stuff, k?) Officer came up to the window. Buddy handed out driver's license & CPL. Officer wanted to take control of the gun, no big deal, his perogative. But in doing so, he swept me. GRRRR. I ducked, he apologized, he took the gun back to his car to do whatever. Officer was plainly much relieved to have control of that gun. Funny thing was, every other adult in the vehicle was armed, and he was relieved because he'd just gotten the firearm away from the only person for whom he had positive ID. Uh, no ticket then, either." I find that absolutely hilarious for some strange reason.

On the guy who feels everyone should have training. I hve a mixed bag on this one. Surely the idiot in the gun store is the exception rather then the rule. While I can agree we should all have training, I for one can't afford the 200+ per class. Hell my biggest obstacle for getting my CHL was the 65 bucks for the thing for crying out loud, but finally swallowed it and went without foor for a week to get it. One of the best decisions I've ever made too I can tell you that, one of my guns has already saved my life. I can't afford any extra training. I do however read alot, and ingrain things into my own head by going over different situations in myhead over and over and over again when I have nothing better to do(sadly more often then not it seems:( ) and I go shooting every chance I get. I strictly adhere to gun safety, and whenever someone handling a firearm doesn't follow even basic guidelines for safety I usually give them the third degree, which often results in an apology and a I didn't think it was so serious which results in another third degree and an yeah you're right.

While people should get more training it isn't always possible, should these people have less right to defend themselves just because they don't have the money to? These people are more at risk because they are forced to live in undesirable area's, but then we have always punished the poor for trying to get ahead. I could go into that to give you examples from my own life but I won't get off the subject. Plain and simple, everyone should get training, but it would be most definately a violation of our rights to require that much training or any training at all. Regardless of how much safer the few idiots might be. Those who give up liberty for safety deserve neither. Simple as that. If there were free training classes offered up by the county or state, I can promise you I would attend. Granted the class her ein Multnomah County Oregon is sort of a joke sort of not, I am still damn proud of my certificate of completion even though I did nothing to get it other then pay my 20 bucks and sit there. The class is officially an hour and a half but generally turns into over 3 hours most of it being back and forth discussion and Q&A, and even some friendly debate resulting in both the citizen and the officer learning a few things. Again I could provide an example where one of his examples dealt with a family incident that was well publicized and I had to correct him on the matter, but I will end up writing about that in another thread somewhere probably.

Sorry for the long post. I seem to do that alot here, but there is so much to say with so many good people on sucha good forum.

Rev. Michael

ArmedBear
February 16, 2006, 01:33 AM
There's more hatred for LEOs here than most anywhere else on the net I've seen.

Probably not for you, or LEO's in GA.

Remember, CA, NY, NJ, MD, IL are populous states and our experiences are not like those of people in GA.

Not that I hate LEO's, but I'm sure I'd like y'all a lot more if I lived where you're a cop!

Thanks and keep it up!

Autolycus
February 16, 2006, 04:16 AM
I couldn't care less and believe people should carry whatever they wish. The one's I've stopped that have presented a CHL to me, I've cut loose with a warning simply because as a CHL holder they're responsible citizens and a citation is unnecessary to get them to comply.

A lot is to be said about the attitude check, as I don't believe in using traffic enforcement to extort revenue for govt. Good attitude will get you a warning. Being confrontational and acting like an honor graduate from the Outhouse University School of Law and I'll get writers cramp from the cites you'll be issued.

LE is a 95-5 proposition. IOW we deal with about 5% of the population about 95% of the time. Those 5% are the frequent fliers and problem children.
Other than the occassional first time DUIs we generally don't have much contact with the rest of the population.

Out of curiosity I see that your in Alaska. What do you do if they do not have a CCW permit as it is not required in Alaska? I assume you treat them as you describe above if they inform you anyways?

harvester of sorrow
February 16, 2006, 04:30 AM
I've been a LEO for 8 years now, and I think ALL people should carry whatever they want to, whenever they want to, wherever they want to, with no permit whatsoever.....the criminals are going to anyways, and the law-abiding are no threat. Limiting where people can carry only creates free-fire zones where the victims are certain to be defenseless.

Autolycus
February 16, 2006, 04:46 AM
Optical Serenity; QUOTE: "......In fact, More LEOs support CCW/2nd Amendment/Gun hobby than the other way around. There's more hatred for LEOs here than most anywhere else on the net I've seen. And before you say it, two of my good friends work for the BATFE, both are NRA life members, both are members of gun clubs, and both support the 2nd Amendment and the gun hobby 100%...
_________________________________________________________________

I've noticed critisism more then hate.

BATFE, NRA life and support the 2nd Amendment? Somebody's confused and it ain't me. You cannot work for that organization, believe in your job and support the 2nd Amendment (or the Constitution for that matter) at the same time.

"Support the gun hobby"? must be a LEO phrase.

I had a good friend (now deceased) who was an accomplished lifelong shooter. He won the National Metalic Sillouttes at 3 Points Range in Arizona with a Ruger SB he customized and ammo he loaded. When one of his sons told him he was joining the BATF in California he said "son, when you visit you come see me after 11pm and leave before 6am." And he wasn't kidding.

I notice that a lot of LEOs on Pro-Gun websites say that. However on the TV, the Newspapers, and some internet sites I see a disdain for people who want to CCW. An example I like to use is the HR218 (the bill that grants Retired / Off-duty/ on vacation LEOs the right to CCW nationally. There was a lot of promises for support for a non-LEO version allowing national reciprocity. I do not hear any support for that. I believe LEAA supports CCW but the majority are not helping. On a few other sites I hear the old, vote in new lawmakers bit. Well the same can be said of those who are members in LEO and Police Unions. You elect your leadership and we do not. The fact is that we are all on the same side (at least I hope!) but the blame cannot be solely placed on either side. I am hesitant to give the LEOs of this nation any more priveledges in this country then I have. I have told the LEOs on one board this... "Its not a right until everyone is allowed to do it." in reference to me complaining that they can CCW and I cannot. (I am in IL for now.)

So I say I will not vote for Police Protection from criminals and non-LEO citizens until I am granted those same protections from criminals and LEOs. :)

U.S.SFC_RET
February 16, 2006, 08:46 AM
CCW is a responsibility. Before people scream infringment,RBKA, ect. Take it upon yourselves if you wish to educate the uneducated about CCW. That means you the CCW holder. IMHO it is our responsibilty as a whole to disiminate to the lowest level the duties and responsibilities therof. If it is gun familiarization show him. If it's about holsters show em the proper way to wear that holster or make a recommendation to get a better one if the need calls for it but don't just give him a look of comtempt and walk away.
Gun Rights,Gun Rights,Gun Rights. If you are one those that espouses Gun Rights then do something about it to help your fellow man.
LEOs are right about one thing "the lack of training of typical CCWs" I agree. State Required training? maybe maybe not. But training itself is a definite need.

Northwet
February 16, 2006, 08:50 AM
The local sheriff there was highlighted in Women & Guns magazine. I think she's been the sheriff for three years now.
Also saw where the Tacoma police force is going to, or allows 1911s in .45 ACP for their officers.
North"wet"


in the great city of tacoma. where the PD has the best reputation in the nation.. in fact, just type in "David Brame" in google and just see how cool we are

Molon Labe
February 16, 2006, 08:56 AM
Yes training is always good, but it should definitely not be a requirement.+1.

Training should never be a prerequisite for exercising an inalienable right.

CCW is a responsibility.Yes. But more importantly it is an inalienable right.

SSN Vet
February 16, 2006, 11:00 AM
Calling all LEO....I love you! Thankyou for stepping up to the plate!

BUT REMEMBER THIS.....

You are the publics SERVANTS!!!

NOT

The publics MASTERS!!!

This is the key distinction between the Gestapo and the police of a free people.

SSN Vet
February 16, 2006, 11:02 AM
I'm sorry but I have to say it...
----------------------------------------
HAS ANYONE ACTUALLY READ THE CONSTITUTION OF THIS FINE COUNTRY???
-----------------------------------------
Driver's license.... NOT a constitutional right, test me and charge your fees.

Health Care.... NOT a constitutional right, rack that bill up and send me to collections.

Government social services.... NOT a constitutional right, get your hands out of my wallet.
--------------------------------------------
Freedom from government regulation of my religious faith.... IS a constitutional right...get out of my head (and that of my kids)

RKBA.... IS a constitutional right.... get out of my closet.

Freedom to call politicians crooks.... IS a constitutional right...get your HUSH RUSH gag off my mouth.
------------------------------------------------
If the constitution secures a specific right for me....... don't tell me I have to prove I'm responsible to exercise it. YOU PROVE that I'm irresponsible and then take it away via. due process.

I'm appalled at the elitist-socialist CR@P that seemingly thinking people so readily buy into...

Oh poor little untrained, uneducated (a.k.a. un-indoctrinated) peon of an ordinary citizen.... let us "professionals" with government credentials take care of you.

HAVEN'T THE LIBERALS/LETISTS FIGURED IT OUT YET.... THEIR IDEAS HAVE ONLY SUCCEEDED IN ONE THING.... DESTROYING THIS COUNTRY!!:fire: :fire: :fire:

Meplat
February 16, 2006, 12:46 PM
I wonder how many NYC cops can go out with an iron sighted .22, and consistently make head shots on squirrels.


I take it sir, that you are not familiar with the great Southern delicacy of squirrel heads, biscuits and red-eye gravy for breakfast? :D

Meplat
February 16, 2006, 12:53 PM
I've been a LEO for 8 years now, and I think ALL people should carry whatever they want to, whenever they want to, wherever they want to, with no permit whatsoever.....the criminals are going to anyways, and the law-abiding are no threat. Limiting where people can carry only creates free-fire zones where the victims are certain to be defenseless.

Ya know, it seems to me that I run across this attitude far to seldom these days. Too many people don't understand that their birth certificate IS their carry permit. We ARE the "people", no matter what anyone says, and there is no way to "bear" arms without...well...BEARING arms. Last time I looked, to "bear" meant to "carry" or "transport on one's person". I wonder if those fellers in Concorde had the requisite paperwork on them?

Meplat
February 16, 2006, 01:03 PM
BTW, you can't get a driver's license without at least a written and road test. Why shouldn't there be at least one or the other to get a gun license? I'm not a hunter, but if I'm not mistaken, to get a hunting license you have to take a hunter's safety course, right?


Errr...how about this? Driving is not a Constitutionally recognized and protected RIGHT. Nor is hunting.

Next?

Molon Labe
February 16, 2006, 01:05 PM
RKBA.... IS a constitutional rightDoes this mean people did not have the right to keep and bear arms before 1791?

The right to keep and bear arms is a natural right. Is does not depend on the Constitution for its existence.

I've been a LEO for 8 years now, and I think ALL people should carry whatever they want to, whenever they want to, wherever they want to, with no permit whatsoever.++1. Wish more LEOs understood freedom as well as you, harvester.

Zen21Tao
February 16, 2006, 02:17 PM
I just wanted to come in a give my opinion. Let me begin by saying that I am not a LEO so anything I say about LEO training is coming from second accounts from that I have that are or have been in law enforcement. However, I was in the Army infantry so can speak from first hand knowledge in that case.

With that said, I think that many are putting law enforcement firearms training up on a pedestal where it doesnít necessarily belong. Like in the military many LEOs receive some degree of basic firearms training but after that they only time you see some of them at the range is for periodic re-qualification periods. However, others take what they learned in their basic firearms training courses to the range at least every week (or more). I have known many LEOs and Non-infantry soldiers that knew very little about firearms other than how to operate the specific weapon they were trained on and, in the case of the LEO, they carry.

It has been my experience, (including what I have heard from my LEO friends), that the LEOs who are opposed to civilian concealed carry usually tend to be the under trained LEOs noted above. They think that because they know so little about firearms and train so infrequently with them they think that the average citizen must necessarily know anjd train even less. They fail to see the great number of gun enthusiasts the learn everything they can about firearms and visit their local range very frequently.

Donít get me wrong. I do agree that average citizens should have gun safety training and visit a range (al least) semi-regularly if they intend to carry a concealed weapon. But to think that a LEO, just because he is a LEO, knows more about firearms than any given citizen is very naive.

Also, I keep my CCW in my glove compartment under my vehicle papers while driving. Every time I have been pulled over I informed the LEO it was there and that I am a CCW holder. Every time I have been cut a break on tickets. I definitely think most respect a CCW holder knowing he (or she) is a law abiding citizen.

Meplat
February 16, 2006, 08:17 PM
I'm a 15 year veteran of LE and I am a constitutionalist. I think you should be able to carry without a permit and the only place you can't carry should be court rooms(not court houses but rooms) and jails/prisons. Cops don't carry in those 2 places either except for those working and doing the job. I would love to see the current hoopla over Katrina bring communities back to having town/city/community sponsored militias. I don't believe in quailification or tests to carry becasue the government has no business saying who may or may not carry.As the saying goes "what part of shall not be infrimnged don't people get"?

http://www.tradergator.com/auctions/auctiondetails.php?id=110226

35631

Currently I am seriously considering leaving LE due to the changes I see in the caliber of the people, the attitudes of the people , and the coming internal problems in america. The police today have an attitude of I will because I can and I am above you. It is an arrogant , damn near facist attitude and it is growing.Do not get me wrong there are good people out ther but they are becoming fewer and fewer. I know what side I am on and it is of the people and constitution so it may be best for me to leave.

Sir, we need MORE people like yourself in LE. From my point of view, I'd hate to see you leave.

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