[TheOtherOne]

I am NOT looking to convert any weapon to full auto, but I am wondering about all these books I see which explain how to convert an ak/ar/uzi/mac10/etc. to select fire and full auto.

Are these books legal and is it still legal to convert any of these guns to full auto... like if they were pre 1986 or something?

[pax]

Books, no matter what information may be contained within them, are legal under the First Amendment to the Constitution of these here United States of America.

As for the rest, I dunno. Moving this over to L&P so folks can wrangle about it properly and give you educated wrong information. ;)

pax

A computer lets you make more mistakes faster than any invention in human history -- with the possible exceptions of handguns and tequila. -- Mitch Ratliffe

[Jedi_7.62]

To the best of my knowledge.....

The books are legal. I'm not aware of any books being illegal.
It is illegal to change a post ban 86 weapon to full auto.

I would assume can't say for sure that a pre ban would already be select fire.

I briefly looked into this subject when I purchased my SAR 1

Even though it is illegal to do, information is always nice to have.

[hondo68]

The first and second amendments are still the law of the land. All books and arms are still legal. You may have some dificulty convincing certain tyrants holding you in jail however.
:cuss:

"America is at that awkward stage. It's too late to work within the system, but too early to shoot the bastards." -- Claire Wolfe

[Hkmp5sd]

Are these books legal and is it still legal to convert any of these guns to full auto... like if they were pre 1986 or something?

The books are legal. Converting any semiautomatic to full auto is illegal because the '86 ban prevents you from registering the machinegun with ATF. Essentially, you are arrested for possessing an un-taxed machinegun.

One other thing of note. If you possess a semiautomatic firearm and the parts to convert it to full auto, even if they are not installed, ATF considers you in possession of an unregistered machinegun.

[Chris Rhines]

Yup. Also, the ATF considers a semiautomatic weapon with even a single machinegun part (such as an AR-15 with an M16 bolt carrier) to be a machinegun, even if the weapon is not capable of firing full-auto. Nice, huh?

- Chris

[TallPine]

If you possess a semiautomatic firearm and the parts to convert it to full auto, even if they are not installed, ATF considers you in possession of an unregistered machinegun.

I suppose owning a semi-auto and a file are also illegal ... :rolleyes:

[4v50 Gary]

Books are protected under the First Amendment. That's why we just can't shut down the neighborhood porn shop.

However, a book on converting firearms, plus a full auto part and the firearm can be used as evidence of "intent" to convert (illicitly) a semiautomatic firearm to full auto. So, it's the gubmint attorney trying to convince the jury that you're a bad guy and you're attorney trying to convince that same jury that it's academic only and there was no intent.

[Destructo6]

Yup. Also, the ATF considers a semiautomatic weapon with even a single machinegun part (such as an AR-15 with an M16 bolt carrier) to be a machinegun, even if the weapon is not capable of firing full-auto. Nice, huh?

- Chris
Not quite accurate. The AR-15 is a special case in which having a single auto part is considered to be illegal.

HKs are an example of the rest. There's no legal problem installing the auto bolt carrier. The semi sear and trigger are no different for a semi as an auto.

[Standing Wolf]

Too much government.
Too little common sense.

[TheLastBoyScout]

Would the SP1 (Colt's AR15A1 variant) be illegal, because it came standard with a M16 bolt carrier, IIRC?

Just wondering exactly how stupid this law is.

[SquirrelNuts]

Too much government.
Too little common sense. Amen Brother!

-SquirrelNuts

[444]

"Would the SP1 (Colt's AR15A1 variant) be illegal, because it came standard with a M16 bolt carrier, IIRC? "

That depends. It is illegal if they say it is illegal. If "they" are out to get you, they will find something. And contrary to the spirit this country was founded on, it will be up to you to prove it isn't illegal in court. This isn't to say that "they" will come looking for you to see if you have an M16 bolt carrier in your rifle, but if they end up looking at your SP1, odds are you are in trouble.

I have a pre-ban SGW AR15 that had a lot of M16 parts in it. I completely replaced all the lower receiver fire control parts and replaced the bolt. Actually I bought this gun from a Class III dealer. I replaced all the parts before I even took it home; even before I paid him for it. This was never a full auto gun, it just had some full auto parts in it, as did many early AR15s. I am not giving "them" any rope to hang me with.

[dustind]

Are you guys sure all books are legal and protected? I thought anything that convinces or perswades someone to do something illegal, is illegal. If i wrote a book and told everyone to break several laws can't the gov come after me?

As for machine guns, i understood the law as "if one part is a machinegun, the whole gun is a machine gun." It makes sence but sucks if the part doesn't make it a full auto.

[Bonker]

I'm pretty sure it's illegal for a licenced gun dealer to tell you how to do an illegal conversion.

I keep the drilling template and parts to convert my AKs to full auto at a friend's house who doesn't own one. He keeps the full auto m-16 parts at my house since I don't own an AR-15. Nice and legal that way.

[DeltaElite]

The info is legal and full auto is gosh darn fun too.
However, you sure burn up ammo fast. :D

[Feanaro]

I'm pretty sure all books are legal, even "how-to" murder books.

[Hkmp5sd]

ATF has encountered various AR-15 type assault rifles such as those manufactured by Colt, E.A. Company, SGW, Sendra and others, which have been assembled with fire control components designed for use in M16 machineguns. The vast majority of these rifles which have been assembled with an M16 bolt carrier, hammer, trigger, disconnector and selector will fire automatically merely by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector. Many of these rifles using less than the five M16 parts listed above also will shoot automatically by manipulation of the selector or removal of the disconnector.


Any weapon which shoots automatically, more than one shot, without manual reloading, by a single function of the trigger, is a machinegun as defined in 26 U.S.C. 5845(b), the National Firearms Act (NFA). In addition, the definition of a machinegun also includes any combination of parts from which a machinegun may be assembled, if such parts are in possession or under the control of a person. An AR-15 type assault rifle which fires more than one shot by a single function of the trigger is a machinegun under the NFA. Any machinegun is subject to the NFA and the possession of an unregistered machinegun could subject the possessor to criminal prosecution.


Additionally, these rifles could pose a safety hazard in that they may fire automatically without the user being aware that the weapon will fire more than one shot with a single pull of the trigger.


In order to avoid violations of the NFA, M16 hammers, triggers, disconnectors, selectors and bolt carriers must not be used in assembly of AR-15 type semiautomatic rifles, unless the M16 parts have been modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration. Any AR-15 type rifles which have been assembled with M16 internal components should have those parts removed and replaced with AR-15 Model SP1 type parts which are available commercially. The M16 components also may be modified to AR-15 Model SP1 configuration.

http://www.atf.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/complete.htm


Naturally, ATF does not provide a definate answer. Typical, maybe - maybe not

[Steel]

Pay $200 for your Class III and getting one designed to be full auto.

[Thumper]

Don't Bushies also come with a full auto carrier? I know Colts all have the cutout now, but I thought Bushmaster was still shipping the "proper" carrier.

[bogie]

Uh... Stupid question... If you have a Bushy, and the JBTs kick your door in, and they drag it out (after the press conference) and run a few cans of rounds through it until it's so grunged that it'll slam fire through a whole mag, is it a machinegun?

[Daniel T]

Hell, it wouldn't even have to be a whole mag, just "more than one shot".

[Destructo6]

The Bushmaster bolt is probably cut back far enough on the bottom side so as not to trip the auto sear. My Armalite bolt is cut likewise and won't trip an auto sear.

Later Colt bolts have the cutout extend all the way back, as you said.

[buzz_knox]

I just got a Colt M4 upper with 16" barrel. Anyone know if these come with a full-auto or Sporter bolt carrier? How do you tell the difference?

[Carlos Cabeza]

I had a funny incident with an old .22 I bought at a garage sale once. I took it home to try it out and it would empty the entire tube magazine with one pull of the trigger. So I took it to a local 'smith and left it for him to repair. The day I went to pick it up he saw me and immediately told me to "never come to my shop again" ! I asked what was wrong ? Did you fix it ? He replied "someone had filed on the sear and trigger group", and I was in violation of such and such laws. He was implying that I did it, and he was going to call the cops. I hid that rifle in mom's attic and I havn't seen it since. (15 yrs.):D

[Hkmp5sd]

This article is intended to help you to distinguish between semi-auto (we'll call these AR-15) parts and those designed for full-auto rifles (referred to here as M16 parts). The BATF has interpreted the law such that parts which would convert a firearm into an NFA firearm are subject to registration including:

Any combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting weapons into machineguns;

Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for converting a weapon into a machinegun;

Any combination of parts from which machineguns can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a person;

(see ATF FAQ for more details)


Due mostly to ignorance on the part of dealers and the general public, there are many rifles out there that are violating the law unknowingly. Most will have a couple of parts, and though the rifle will not be capable of full-auto fire, will still be in violation of the law. It is important to check your rifles and those you consider purchasing, since the penalties can be harsh:

From: [49 U.S.C. 781-788, 26 U.S.C. 5861, 26 U.S.C. 5872]
Violators may be fined not more than $250,000, and imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both. In addition, any vessel, vehicle or aircraft used to transport, conceal or possess an unregistered NFA firearm is subject to seizure and forfeiture, as is the weapon itself.

Needless to say, the risks are not worth it so it is important to be able to identify the AR-15 vs.. M16 parts; included here are the trigger, disconnector, hammer, selector, bolt carrier, and auto sear. While it is unlikely that you will ever find the auto sear in a non NFA weapon, any combination of the others is possible.

The AR-15 and M16 parts are very similar, and unless you know what you're looking for, would most likely not notice. Many of the AR-15 parts have been made by modifying the plentiful M16 parts. Colt has made a number of modifications over the years to their AR-15 lower receivers to minimize the possibility of "misplaced" M16 parts, but on most non-Colt rifles, M16 parts will fit in place of the semi-auto parts. Let's look at these in detail:

Trigger
Triggers are very similar; only difference is that the M16 trigger has an open channel at the rear. This is to accommodate the M16 disconnector.
http://www.ar15.com/content/docs/AR15-M16Parts/trigger.gif


Disconnector
There are a couple of versions of the AR-15 disconnector. Essentially, they are the same as the M16 part without the "tail" at the rear.
http://www.ar15.com/content/docs/AR15-M16Parts/disconnector.gif


Hammer
The M16 hammer has a "hook" at the upper rear extreme which is caught by the auto sear in the M16. AR-15 will not have this hook.
http://www.ar15.com/content/docs/AR15-M16Parts/hammer.gif


Selector
The M16 selector has a number of additional cut-outs and can be easily distinguished from the AR-15 version. In addition, the M16 selector will be capable of being rotated to the third, auto, position (pointing to the rear) while in the receiver; this is possible because of an additional index on this selector.
http://www.ar15.com/content/docs/AR15-M16Parts/selector.gif


Bolt Carrier
The M16 bolt carrier will have about a 2" closed section at the rear that actually trips the auto sear in full-auto fire. Semi-auto versions have either a reduced closed bottom section (about 1/2"), or a completely open bottom (made so that an adapter to M-16 configuration cannot be installed).
http://www.ar15.com/content/docs/AR15-M16Parts/boltCarrier.gif


Another difference in the bolt carriers is the additional metal removed on the underside to expose the collar of the firing pin. This is intended to catch the hammer and prevent firing if the carrier is not fully forward when the hammer releases. This occurs if the hammer is "riding" the carrier back (i.e. no auto sear is holding back the hammer). On the M16 bolt carriers, the firing pin collar is not exposed.
http://www.ar15.com/content/docs/AR15-M16Parts/boltCarrier2.gif


There are some "hybrid" carriers that do not have this area open and yet only have the 1/2" closed bottom section in the back. There are others that appear to be M16 carriers, but apparently have had 1/4" of the rear "sear trip" section milled, and so do not qualify as M16 carriers because they cannot trip a sear.

Conclusion
As mentioned previously, having M16 parts in you AR does not mean that it will be capable of automatic fire, but it does mean that you could be in violation of the law. The penalties are harsh, and definitely not worth the risks. Check those rifles, and replace any parts that don't belong. Keep in mind that some parts like the bolt carrier, can appear to be M16 and yet actually be legal AR-15 parts... stay legal, and most importantly, stay safe!


http://www.ar15.com/content/docs/AR15-M16Parts/

[alan]

Heard on a radio news broadcast the following. That COMBAT COMMANDERS in Iraq, might be having a problem with their troops, COMBAT TROOPS obtaining Iraqi small arms, those ubiquitous AK-47's, some of which haven't been unwraped, pistols and RPG's. Combat Engineers, who likely have more important things to do, are busy blowing up captured small arms.

I'd likely go along on the destruction of RPG's, but rifles and pistols, for christ sake, these are OUR COMBAT TROOPS, and one would think that THEY HAD EARNED THE DAMNED THINGS, assuming that they wanted any of them.

If the bureaucrats and or ATF's are "upset" at our soldiers being in possession of "assault rifles", let pass the fact that their government has equipped them with same, plus a whole lot more than mere "assault rifles", then I suggest the following. Let these bums get out of their offices, where they plot the entrapment of law abiding citizens who might be guilty of unintended violations of vaugely written laws, as opposed to chasing real criminals. Then lets send them to Iraq, or some other COMBAT AREA, where THEY might THEMSELVES undertake the destruction of what used to be legitimately known as "the spoils of war", or "war mementos", or "bouty".

[4v50 Gary]

Regarding the "moider" book, recall that Paladin Press printed one on something along the lines on "how to be a hit man" or "how to hire a hit man." Sumbuddy killed his wife and the family sued Paladin. Paladin defended on First Amendment grounds and lost. So, while it may not be illegal per se, it may result in a lawsuit (which is de facto suppression of Free Speech sez Paladin - hey, where's the Sibil Liberty peepul when you want them? Sipping latte in some trendy upscale bourgeiou
s cafe I bet).

[alan]

When guns or things related thereto become involved, they seem to strangely loose interest.

[TheOtherOne]

Good info! Thanks!

So I guess starting a web page that explains in detail how to convert to a full auto would be legal, but then you would be opening yourself up to lawsuits.

[mercedesrules]

Gary said:Regarding the "moider" book, recall that Paladin Press printed one on something along the lines on "how to be a hit man" or "how to hire a hit man." Sumbuddy killed his wife and the family sued Paladin. Paladin defended on First Amendment grounds and lost.

It was a civil suit, right? The Southern Poverty Law Center, Morris Dees' outfit, goes around suing KKK and skinhead groups if one of their members kills a black person after hearing the leader encourage it. He has bankrupted a couple of the groups. I don't like these suits; too close to thought crime. It still doesn''t mean that the info is "illegal"; just that if some moron acts on it, a jury might just side with the victim.

MR

[444]

"So I guess starting a web page that explains in detail how to convert to a full auto would be legal, but then you would be opening yourself up to lawsuits."

I think that the result of something like that would be more government scrutiny and possibly harrassment. I hate to say this, but since the conversion of a semi-auto firearm to full auto is illegal for the average Joe, why bring put yourself under the microscope ? I am certainly against any banning of books or information. In fact I am against the fact that any one can't do a full auto conversion, but there are rules and we have to live by them. If you have a burning desire to own a full auto firearm, buy one legally and examine how it works. Or ask someone who owns one to let you examine it and discuss it with them.

[alan]

Years ago, Gun Week used to run ads headed as follows.

WHY WALTZ, WHEN YOU CAN ROCK AND ROLL.

The text that followed offered what were described as "drop-in auto sears" and other parts, which at that time, were legal to sell, and to own, so long as they were NOT installed in a previously "semi-automatic rifle". Of course, the ATF came along and changed the rules, so they no longer are legal to own, UNINSTALLED. I've always wondered as to exactly how they legally managed that, but let that pass.

The fly in the ointment was as follows, from what I had heard. Most of these "conversions" either didn't work at all, were quite far removed from "drop in", or were less than reliable, causing me to wonder as to why the hell anyone would have bothered. No accounting for personal taste though.

As another poster observed, if you really can't live without an automatic or selective fire weapon of some sort, and you live in a machine gun legal state, look into buying one and being legal. All it costs is money, and if the price is to steep, foreget about it. If you live in a state where machine guns are proscribed, consider moving, or once again, forget about it, unless you want to become politically involved, who knows but what miracles might still happen.