[Ari]

I was hoping to get some input. I was looking for a rifle that'll do a few things.

1) SHTF
2) fun benchrest shooter/target shooting 200y+
3) cheap to feed

And I'm kinda stuck on a dilemma. Should I get one rifle that does all 3? Or should I get two rifles, both of which, are very good at each aspect.

-AR15/DPMS 16" bull barrel : good shtf rifle, cheap to feed and is an okay plinker/target rifle.

Right around my humble budget of $650.

-- OR --

-Savage 10fp .308 w/accutrigger: great accurate out the box shooter.

-- and --

- Russian SKS. Cheap to feed, and a very reliable SHTF rifle.

Both of which, are within' my lil' budget.

I'd like to hear arguements on either. Thanks!!

Ari-

[craigz]

Sounds to me as though the Savage/SKS option does not include any part of your humble budget for a scope. I don't think you'll get very much satisfaction from the Savage with a $50 scope and surplus ammo. A precision bolt-action deserves good glass and good ammo. You're probably better off with the AR at this point.

[yankytrash]

Think of it this way, ie "cheap to feed":
Two calibers is two calibers to buy for. That includes inevitable accesories for both calibers.

The AR's accessories are more widely available, and you can go as cheap or as high as you want. The AR's ammo can cheapo surplus or high-dollar 600yd X-wreckers.

The AR's more flexible. Go for it. You get the Savage and SKS, you'll always wonder if you shoulda got the AR. Get the AR, you'll be sayin, "Savage what? What SKS?".

[Blain]

Replace AR with M14. Now we are cooking!

[444]

1) SHTF
2) fun benchrest shooter/target shooting 200y+
3) cheap to feed

Ah, let me see; #1-AR15, #2-AR15, and #3 AR15

SHTF- those boys over in Iraq are using the longest lived military rifle in US history. It has proven itself all over the world: Africa, Panama, Vietnam, Granada, Iraq, you name it and it has been there. Also the carbine of choice for many law enforcement agencies as a squad car weapon, SWAT weapon, you name it weapon.
Accuracy- The AR will be as accurate as the Savage right out of the box. The AR15 has replaced the M14/M1A and the M1 in service rifle match shooting. If you buy a flat top you can scope it, put an Aimpoint on it, or shoot iron sights with ability to switch between them in seconds.
Cheap to feed- You can buy Wolf ammo for somewhere around $90/1000 rounds. I have fired 3000 rounds of it and had no problems at all. You can handload .223 for about the same money. You can buy surplus ammo for more, and you can buy factory ammo from basically any factory that makes ammo. If you stick to 55 grain FMJ bullets this caliber is very cheap. Or you can load or buy any bullet configuration there is with bullets from 40 grains up to 80 grains.

But don't listen to me, I am an AR fanatic and that is my answer to every question like this.

[TechBrute]

Two calibers is two calibers to buy for. Yes, but one caliber doesn't always mean one bullet. I've got 2 different sets of ammo for my .223 "tactical varmit bolt gun,";) and my AR15. I'm of the opinion that a gun's shooting can be optimized with different ammo. Therefore, 2 different guns, 2 different bullets in a lot of cases.
The AR will be as accurate as the Savage right out of the box. Cough... cough... <raises hand> um... I'd like to repsectfully disagree. You might be able to compare a $1200 NM AR to a Savage bolt gun, accuracy wise, but when you are talking about the sub-$700 ARs, they can't touch the Savage. My Savage 12FV varmit rifle is shoots sub-3/4MOA out of the box following a proper break-in. That's a ligitimate, consistant sub-3/4MOA with 5 shot groups, not "it shot a 3/4 inch group with 3 rounds once." I won't say I haven't seen an AR do that, but it sure wasn't a sub-$700 one.But don't listen to me, I am an AR fanatic and that is my answer to every question like this. Now that I can respect.:D

Personally, after making all that noise, I'd probably go out and buy a Rock River AR Carbine if I had a $650 budget to cover all those bases.

[Dorrin79]

I filled my rifle needs (a fun SHTF semi-auto truck gun and a accurate, powerful bolty) by buying a Yugo SKS and a Yugo M48 Mauser

Total Price:

Mauser $150
380 rds surplus 8mm $30

SKS $180
700 rds surplus 7.62x39 $60

so, for a total of $450 I got everything I wanted, in the form of two great mil-surps

Eventually I plan on scoping the Mauser, which will add another couple hundred to the total cost.

[cratz2]

Well, I'm a believer in rather having one nice gun than two not-so-nice guns, not that any that you have listed are in the not-so-nice category. I'm also more of a fan of bolt guns than semi autos and don't often plan for the SHTF scenarios but in your situation, I'd personally go for the AR now and add a bolt rifle in .308 or similar later when additional funds allow.

The SKS is a pretty heavy and cumbersome rifle compared to the AR not to mention the near limitless, near instant ammo supply the AR affords.

If I really had to take to the hills, I'd be much more confident with an AR than with an SKS.

[444]

TechBrute
To be honest, I don't know if there are any sub $700 AR15s. But there are excellent ARs available for the high $700s. And the AR15 is a very accurate rifle. I have never put a big scope on one of my ARs and shot it from a benchrest for groups so I can't give you any bragging sized groups. The difference between an $800 AR and your $1200 NM AR is very little. Trigger, and free floated barrel. I was shooting several of my ARs today on paper. I was only checking my zero, so again, I didn't shoot at 100 yards, and I was using the fender of my pickup for a bench and my left hand for sandbags. But my main AR ate one hole (granted it was maybe 1/2" diameter hole) at 50 yards with the back up iron sights. Pretty much the only mod done to the rifle is a KAC RAS II which floats the barrel. Admitedly this isn't a $700 rifle, but I probably paid $800 for the rifle not counting the RAS II. I am sure that I could duplicate that group at 100 yards with a scope. I have nothing but respect for the accuracy of the AR15.

[yzguy]

I just went through that....

I ended up with an SAR-1 (AK clone) and a Savage 10FP in .308

I was considering an AR for a do everything rifle, but then started thinking that my "rapid fire fun" would also be eating into my precision barrel life. I kinda liked the idea of only 1 more round to add (.223) but then the more I think about it, it would probably be 2 types of that round anyway (one cheap type for playing, and one better type for accuracy) and since I'm not reloading (well not yet anyway) it may as well be 2 different types of rounds.

So now I have 2 guns (after all isn't 2 better than 1??) and in the SHTF scenario, I can hand the AK off to someone else to watch my back while I use the Savage, can't do that with 1 AR... Also I can shoot the AK without having to worry about barrel life or messing up accuracy. Another great thing is the $7 30 round mags!!

BTW I also ended up with a Choate stock on both, Kobra Red dot on the AK and the Bushnell Elite 3200 5X15X40 scope on the savage. With all the extras I did end up spending a bit more than I planned, but am happier with what I ended up with.

my AK:
http://www.1bad69.com/gallery/?path=/gallery/GunStuff/ak/&MaxCol=4&MaxRow=4

my Savage:
http://www.1bad69.com/gallery/?path=/gallery/GunStuff/savage/&MaxCol=4&MaxRow=4

[9mmepiphany]

i'd go with the two gun combo. the savage is a great value for the accuracy provided. the sks is heavier than the ar, but will also put up with more abuse and less care while still perking along.

last time i looked, surplus 7.62x51mm was going for the same price as surplus 5.56x45mm (i won't shot wolf anything) and 7.62x39mm was running about 2/3rds that price. adding the mauser to a sks combo has a lot to say for it, as 8x57mm ammo is extremely cheap...if you are willing to move into the 30-'06 power range.

i like old guns and my personal choice would be pairing an enfield #4 mk1 (.303, you did say 200+ yards right?), for #1 and #2, with the sks, for #1 and #3.

a side benefit of the savage/sks or enfield/sks combos is that they can still be had in CA

[Ari]

Great input so far! But just to clear some things.

- I already have a good Mil-Surp bolt. 91-30 M-N, that I love! But I do also have plans to add a few Mausers (m48 and a Finn) very very soon, along with a FR8.

- I already have a cheap 44 mag scope I'll put on either the AR or Savage "FOR NOW". Meaning, B-Day is coming up and a Leupold VX2 is on top of that list!

- This WILL NOT be my only rifle purchases. $650 is just the amount I have now that I've been saving for a couple of months that is just burning a hole in my pocket. And NO, I can not refrain from holding off any longer to save for anything else! My soul is just too weak. :D

- Buying multiple bullets is not a big deal to me. I usually stock up and only bring 2 rifles and a few pistols with me at a time to the range.

- The AR I have in my current sights is the DPMS Classic hi-pro Carbine w/ Bull barrell. So if anyone else can comment on that, that'll also be great!

Thanks again!

[BusMaster007]

My buddy just recently decided he needed an AR and a .308.

He went to look at the same DPMS you mentioned and someone had just traded in a Bushmaster A3 Shorty.
After looking at both, he said, "no contest", and bought the Bushmaster.
It was a great choice. He's very glad he chose that one.

As for the .308?
Someone had brought in a Browning BLR 81. Almost perfect.
He looked it over and bought it, too.
Got a deal on both for buying them at the same time.
Browning just brought out the BLR 81 again this year.

Your dilemma is a tough one.
Can you exercise some patience and self-control?
:p

Check out some Bushmaster carbines and maybe hold out for the Savage 110FP in .308.
That'd be a heckuva combo --- if you can wait just a little bit longer.

I'm thinkin' you'd like to do more .308 target shooting and more .223 blasting!!!!!
Have fun.:D

[dude]

Savage 10T in .308 or .223 (.308!!) with some decent optics and a good SKS



.........there is no 'plinker' rifle that is more fun & cheaper to feed than a nice SKS.
And I dialed in a Savage 10T in .308 with a Springfield Armory 6X tactical w/ drop compensator scope to hit 16" ballons out to 700 yards more often than not. It took a while and lots of practice, but it taught me alot about long range shooting!! Need I mention it was quite fun?

[Art Eatman]

Ari, you're gonna have to figure out YOUR notion of a SHTF scenario. Urban/rural; poor/medium/upscale neighborhood; detached house or apartment; LA Riots-style or "worster" collapse. Stay at home? Evacuate? Family needs? All that determines what you might need.

I live in a near-wilderness area. The standing joke in our community is that we wouldn't know about WW III until the beer truck stopped delivering...

Art

[Rob96]

DPMS makes a great rifle. Super accurate out of the box. The teflon finish over the mil-spec hard coat anodize coating gives it a deep black look. My Classic Sixteen has been 100% reliable. When I bought it, I had compared it to 4 other Bushmasters and chose the DPMS.

[BusMaster007]

I should mention that my buddy liked the DPMS just fine.
He just liked the Bushmaster carbine better for his purposes.
For a target shooter, the results may well be "no contest" in favor of the DPMS. :)

[Fatelvis]

One rifle is a good idea. Shoot it alot, and get to know its every in-and -out. And make sure its a M1A.

[geojap]

The FAL is my favorite all-around rifle. You can buy one fairly cheaply, shoot out to ranges of hundreds of yards accurately and it is super-friendly to the would-be gunsmith. M1's are very nice too, but not quite as cheap to feed.

[Ari]

Hey Geo,
My mind and ears are wide open. This was a wild card I had in the back of my mind. The only FALS I see around here are the Century L1a1's and when I attempted to shoulder the rifle, it felt awkward. But honestly, I don't do alot of off hand shooting. Which one would you recommend, and how hard would they be to scope?

[Ari]

yeah, but, I already have a couple of rifles. I think one day when I get all of this, try this and try that out of my system, I'll settle down and actually get to know my rifles more. Kinda like dating in my early 20's! Then I got married...

[Ari]

I'm a child of the 80's. So, to be totally honest, I KNOW FOR SURE, that this scenario will never happen, but you know what they say about never being over prepared. Well, as corny as this may sound. I always envision a "night of the living dead" kinda deal. But realisticly, it would be more like, something to protect my little 1/2 acre home in the suburbs type deal. I don't know, it just makes me feel secure to know if it ever did come down to a "Hollywood" ending, that I was prepared. LOL

[geojap]

There are many makers of FALs out there. I did a lot of research before I bought mine, and I waited months, but then all of a sudden, an unfired DS Arms SA-58 fell into my lap for $850 out the door. That's $1500 (approximately), new.

Anyway, Century makes an inch version on their receiver with an L1A1 kit (british) for $400. Their QC isn't the best, so sometimes people get ones that malfunction. You can send them back to Century though, and they are easy to work on yourself, so for a $400 FAL that will work initally or eventually, that's probably not too bad of an option. Lots of those Century FALs shoot fine, and when you have a $400 FAL that shoots fine, that's a good deal.

Other sources are Dan's Sporting Goods (www.falparts.com) who sells an Imbel FAL (great quality, great QC and customer serivce) for $675. The Imbels are made from Brazilian kits that are very high quality. DS Arms sells the best quality FALs around for $850-$1500, if you have the money for that. DS Arms makes all their parts new and their receivers are of the utmost quality. Their cheaper rifles (the $900 range) are made with STG-58 parts kits (Austrian) and are of superior quality. There are several excellent FAL gunsmiths that can build one from parts kits. Or you can get the parts and build one yourself. That is very easy to do, with just a few tools.

The FAL is easy to work on, very reliable, shoots a great round: the 308, that is optimum for those distances you said that you wanted to shoot out to. I would expect a good FAL to shoot between 2 and 4 MOA with a scope (ammo makes a big difference too), which is what any un-modified, semi-auto battle rifle will shoot. You can get a scope mount that will mount onto the receiver (better than those that mount onto the receiver cover) for less than $100. DSA makes the best scope mounts. My friend had a scoped FAL, and it was very cool, but it adds to the weight of the rifle significantly. The scope mount is a large aparatus. FAL magazines are really affordable ($4-$10) and surplus 308 ammo will run you about 15 cents/round, so you won't go broke buying ammo and mags. The FAL also allows you to control the amount of gas that cycles the next round. So if it gets dirty out in the field and you can't clean it right away, you can adjust the gas system so that the hole widens, enough gas gets into the gas system, and it won't jam on the next round. That's a nice design feature.

The only knocks against the FAL are that it is long (about 40-42" long), the 308 ammo is heavier than 223 (for those doomsday people who will be packing around hundreds of rounds of ammo someday), and it's sights aren't as good as the national match sights you can put on an M1 or M14 (M1A). There isn't anything "National Match" about a FAL. But all its standard parts are as good as any standard part from another good rifle like an M1 or M14 (unless you get a Century, and you may want to replace a few of those parts, like the gas piston and trigger group). It is of the heavier variety of rifle, up there at 9 pounds, with an M14, M1, VEPR, etc. Most people say that the FAL is very ergonomic, but that depends on your own taste. I find it to be fairly ergonomic, but not the best I've ever shouldered. Mine is a damn good bench shooter, though.

One good place to look around regarding FALs is the FAL Files: www.falfiles.com They are down this week for maintenance, but when they get back online next week, go look at their forum that is titled "FAQ's". There are lots of threads that those who are new to FALs have asked questions and had them answered.

FALs are very handy/fun rifles and they do a lot of things very well. They are hard to beat when you are looking for a rifle that will do as many things as you had listed (shoot effectively out past a few hundred yards, a nice SHTF rifle and cheap ammo/mags). Plus they are super-easy to work on, compared to many other rifles.

The M1A/M14's that everyone recommends here are excellent rifles, but mags are terribly expensive. To alleviate that problem, an M1 Garand would be an excellent alternate choice. They only have an 8 round clip, but it is quick to change, and functions as well as any other semi-auto battle rifle. An M1 is an excellent homeland defense weapon. I just got an OUTSTANDING Springfield M1 from the CMP for $525. That's a helluva deal.

Whatever you choose, enjoy it.