Vermont Carry Law (or lack of)


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Boogyman
January 9, 2006, 01:56 AM
Food for thought (or thread)... The famous Vermont Carry Law is actually the absence of a law. In Vermont it is legal for any citizen to carry a concealed weapon without any permit whatsoever, provided he/she has never been convicted of a felony, drug or alchohol related violent crime, or firearm related crime.
Vermont also has the highest educational test scores of any state, one of the lowest in taxes, and a very low crime rate.
Not to mention the best health care program, and NO state budget deficit. Surplus, actually.
Who was governor of Vermont throughout the establishment of most of these standards?
Howard Dean.
Not bad for a so-called left-wing liberal.

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Devonai
January 9, 2006, 02:08 AM
It only proves he was smart enough to avoid an issue that would be political suicide to oppose.

44Brent
January 9, 2006, 10:26 AM
Vermont also has the highest educational test scores of any state, one of the lowest in taxes, and a very low crime rate.

No evidence was provided for any of the these claims. I do know that Vermont does NOT have one of the lowest sets of tax rates. They go up to a 9% marginal state income tax rate, compared with zero for Alaska, Washington, Wyoming, Texas, South Dakota, Tennessee, Florida, and New Hampshire.

http://taxes.yahoo.com/statereport3.html

yucaipa
January 9, 2006, 11:30 AM
Who was governor of Vermont throughout the establishment of most of these standards?


You really think HD was/is responsible for creating Vermont's Firearms policy ?

:D

You been smoking mothers "medical marijuana" again, haven't you ?

:D

BTR
January 9, 2006, 12:22 PM
Their ban on carry was overturned by a court decades ago.

Dean supported the assault weapon ban, and opposed lawsuit protection for gun makers.

He did nothing anti gun as a gov, but his stance on fed. regs was different.

Flyboy
January 9, 2006, 12:32 PM
I do know that Vermont does NOT have one of the lowest sets of tax rates. They go up to a 9% marginal state income tax rate, compared with zero for Alaska, Washington, Wyoming, Texas, South Dakota, Tennessee, Florida, and New Hampshire.
Not to bust your chops, but there's more to taxes than income tax. Sales, property, vehicle, and so forth. Again, the author needs to provide sources to validate his claims.

Boogyman
January 9, 2006, 04:06 PM
When I said taxes, I meant the total sum of all taxes not just income tax.
I didn't say Dean created Vermont's firearms policy, he did and still does support it.
As far as my other statements, it's easy enough to validate ot disprove by using your search engine. Look it up.

Standing Wolf
January 9, 2006, 10:44 PM
Who was governor of Vermont throughout the establishment of most of these standards?

Yeah, and Snopes Clinton presided over an economic boom that was engendered by Ronald Reagan's tax cuts, and Bush is presiding over an eruption of Islamic terrorist savagry that was wholly ignored and thus encouraged during the aforesaid Snopes Clinton's time in the White House.

Coincidence isn't causality.

Flyboy
January 9, 2006, 11:33 PM
Boogeyman:
When I said taxes, I meant the total sum of all taxes not just income tax.
That's what I figured. My comment was directed to 44Brent. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Boogyman
January 10, 2006, 04:42 AM
Boogeyman:

That's what I figured. My comment was directed to 44Brent. Sorry I wasn't clear.

Hey no problem, I was also replying to 44brent.

Boogyman
January 10, 2006, 04:45 AM
Yeah, and Snopes Clinton presided over an economic boom that was engendered by Ronald Reagan's tax cuts, and Bush is presiding over an eruption of Islamic terrorist savagry that was wholly ignored and thus encouraged during the aforesaid Snopes Clinton's time in the White House.

Coincidence isn't causality.

Geez you Clinton-bashers are really clutching at straws anymore.
Guess I can't blame you, considering the state of the republican party and the whitehouse these days...

1911 guy
January 10, 2006, 09:25 AM
The "straw" about Clinton riding the coat tails of Reagan and Bush is entirely fact. It is also true that Clinton ignored a plausable threat from militant islam, but I can't pin that entirely on him. The threat had been brewing and ignored for a while, stretching back to pre-Carter days.

Preacherman
January 10, 2006, 10:56 AM
As far as my other statements, it's easy enough to validate ot disprove by using your search engine. Look it up.

Boogyman, point of order here. If you make assertions, it's your job to back them up with citations, references, etc. It is NOT the job of your readers to do the research for you. So, if you make assertions without supporting evidence, expect to be called on this.

Camp David
January 10, 2006, 11:16 AM
Food for thought (or thread)... The famous Vermont Carry Law is actually the absence of a law. In Vermont it is legal for any citizen to carry a concealed weapon without any permit whatsoever, provided he/she has never been convicted of a felony, drug or alchohol related violent crime, or firearm related crime.
Vermont also has the highest educational test scores of any state, one of the lowest in taxes, and a very low crime rate.
Not to mention the best health care program, and NO state budget deficit. Surplus, actually.
Who was governor of Vermont throughout the establishment of most of these standards?
Howard Dean.
Not bad for a so-called left-wing liberal.

Boogyman... As one who lived in Vermont through the 1970s and 1980s, I would be remiss if I didn't point out that some of what you are crediting former Governor Dean with was ably accomplished by his predecessor, Governor Richard Snelling. Snelling was a rigid supporter of the state's open carry policy on handguns and lack of restrictions (despite many hard state Congress bills in the 70's and 80's to overturn such)... further, the state's education and health care foundation was established by Snelling's Administration through hard-fought legislation, on which Dean later built. Governor Snelling was also a frugal administrator, who initiated the state's balanced budget. While Vermonters credit Dean with continuing the state's success, they are fully knowledeable about its earlier Governor, particularly Richard Snelling, who put the state on firm footing. Dean, by the way, was Snelling's deputy.

Nonetheless, you are right to cite the state as an excellent example of freedom of use for handguns; it is actually quite nice each November, during deer season, to take advantage of the state's freedoms.

Boogyman
January 10, 2006, 02:43 PM
Camp David, thank you for your "civil" disagreement. I did state that Howard Dean was governor during the establishment of most of these standards. I didn't claim that he initiated the carry policies, I only claim that he supported them, along with the budget initiatives. But he was instrumental in furthering the budget policies to the point of creating a surplus, and his tax initiatives and social programs such as health care have been outstanding for the good of the state. Let's give some credit where it is due.

EddieCoyle
January 10, 2006, 04:26 PM
Who was governor of Vermont throughout the establishment of most of these standards?
Howard Dean.


Too bad he couldn't have gone to ... New Hampshire, we're going to South Carolina and Oklahoma and Arizona and North Dakota and New Mexico, and we're going to California and Texas and New York...And we're going to South Dakota and Oregon and Washington and Michigan. And then we're going to Washington, D.C., to take back the White House! !!!" Yeeeeeaaaaaaaahhh!!!!

geekWithA.45
January 10, 2006, 09:20 PM
Dean has diddly divided by squat to do with Vermont's gun friendlyness.

His "support" or lack thereof has NO BEARING.

Vermont is a gun friendly place for two reasons, and two reasons alone:

1) A Solid RKBA clause in the state constitution :


"That the people have a right to bear arms for the defense of themselves and the State -- as standing armies in time of peace are dangerous to liberty, they ought not to be kept up; and that the military should be kept under strict subordination to and governed by the civil power." Chapter 1, Article 16.


Coupled With

2) A State supreme court that when, in 1905 (? IIRC), a city tried to enact a municipal handgun registration and permit scheme, ruled firmly that the RKBA clause prevented ANY of such nonsense from taking root.

If those judges had been on SCOTUS in 1934, none of this nonsense would be happening.

Boogyman
January 10, 2006, 09:29 PM
Too bad he couldn't have gone to ... New Hampshire, we're going to South Carolina and Oklahoma and Arizona and North Dakota and New Mexico, and we're going to California and Texas and New York...And we're going to South Dakota and Oregon and Washington and Michigan. And then we're going to Washington, D.C., to take back the White House! !!!" Yeeeeeaaaaaaaahhh!!!!

He hee... I knew it was only a matter of time before somebody brought that up... :scrutiny:

BTW like your Grateful Dead sig line. Here's one...

"Married me a wife, she's been trouble all my life.
Run me out in the cold rain and snow..."

As in what the press did to Dean for his "unbridled excuberance"...

geoff40
January 10, 2006, 10:56 PM
Vermont also has the highest educational test scores of any state, one of the lowest in taxes, and a very low crime rate.

No evidence was provided for any of the these claims. I do know that Vermont does NOT have one of the lowest sets of tax rates. They go up to a 9% marginal state income tax rate, compared with zero for Alaska, Washington, Wyoming, Texas, South Dakota, Tennessee, Florida, and New Hampshire.

http://taxes.yahoo.com/statereport3.html

Here in NH, we have property taxes that would turn your hair white. Car registration costs far more here than anywhere else I ever heard about. I can list a bunch more, but there is no point. Many people point at us like we are some kind of example to follow (no sales or income tax) but let me tell you, they get you in other ways, and in amounts you wouldn't believe. There is only a "New Hampshire advantage" if you are very wealthy, with enough income so that your property taxes are far more affordable than an income tax would be.
I pay over 4 grand a year in property tax for a 1 story, 2 bedroom house.
My car costs over $400 a year to register, and I know people who pay $800 to register 4WD F250's.

Vermont is a dream to CCW in. I don't care who did or who didn't start or support the Vermont carry law. It is the epitome of what CCW law ought to be across the country. Howard Dean let it stand as it was.

cosine
January 11, 2006, 12:39 PM
[QUOTE=hugh damright] Reference deleted by Art QUOTE]

Um, what point are you trying to make? Or are you just trying to stir the pot up a little again?

gezzer
January 12, 2006, 01:36 AM
I pay over 4 grand a year in property tax for a 1 story, 2 bedroom house.
My car costs over $400 a year to register, and I know people who pay $800 to register 4WD F250's.


Gee Same size house 1600 year reg three vehicles and 2 trailers for under 500.
When was the last time you registered a car in MA, cheap to reg but then the 2.5% excise tax bites it.

Get political and control your town, You can have an impact on the taxes.

Vermont carry is the way it should be everywhere, thier NFA laws though could be better as I hate leaving the suppresors home when we go to shoots over ther.

Cosmoline
January 12, 2006, 01:52 AM
Vermont, NH and Maine were once noted for their fierce independence. Now they're degenerating into blue state suburbs, with massive migration from Mass, NY, NJ and similar states. I don't expect Vermont's eponymous carry law to last another decade. The southern reaches of the state are already dominated by hordes from the south, and they are moving further north every year. I don't see how it can be saved.

Devonai
January 12, 2006, 07:34 AM
With all due respect, Cosmoline, I don't think things are as bad as you say. The NH attorney general made a strong public statement against Massachusetts' claims that our state was responsible for "gun crime" in theirs twice last month. FWIW, everybody that I know (including myself) who's moved north of the border did so for greater freedoms, not to import the Kennedys, but then my experience is limited.

Moto
January 12, 2006, 07:44 AM
Here in NH, we have property taxes that would turn your hair white. Car registration costs far more here than anywhere else I ever heard about. I can list a bunch more, but there is no point. Many people point at us like we are some kind of example to follow (no sales or income tax) but let me tell you, they get you in other ways, and in amounts you wouldn't believe. There is only a "New Hampshire advantage" if you are very wealthy, with enough income so that your property taxes are far more affordable than an income tax would be.
I pay over 4 grand a year in property tax for a 1 story, 2 bedroom house.
My car costs over $400 a year to register, and I know people who pay $800 to register 4WD F250's.

Vermont is a dream to CCW in. I don't care who did or who didn't start or support the Vermont carry law. It is the epitome of what CCW law ought to be across the country. Howard Dean let it stand as it was.


The "New Hampshire advantage" benefits the people in Massachusetts that live near the border. Just cross the border, pay no sales tax, get to buy discount goods like fireworks, Tobacco, Alcohol, and fuel. And then they get to come back home pay much lower property tax. Just like the people from RI do when they come to MA to do thier shopping.

Camp David
January 12, 2006, 09:05 AM
Vermont, NH and Maine were once noted for their fierce independence. Now they're degenerating into blue state suburbs, with massive migration from Mass, NY, NJ and similar states. I don't expect Vermont's eponymous carry law to last another decade. The southern reaches of the state are already dominated by hordes from the south, and they are moving further north every year. I don't see how it can be saved.
Cosmoline: I agree with you here 100%...all three states are being invaded by the flatlanders, but there is some hope... all three, VT, NH, and ME, have a sort of dividing line, north/south, where the southern parts of the states seem to be liberal democrat bastions, and the northern parts conservative republican... Vermont is particularly unique in this respect...just north of Burlington the state suddenly turns conservative... New Hampshire too, just north of Concord....Since both states best hunting areas are along their northern borders this works out well for residents knowing their liberal flatlander breathren are to their south, while the north, mostly dairy farms and agricultural, are maintained conservative. And recall that Pres. Chester Arthur came from Northern Vermont...

Flyboy
January 15, 2006, 01:02 PM
A few days late, but still topical:Here in NH, we have property taxes that would turn your hair white. Car registration costs far more here than anywhere else I ever heard about. I can list a bunch more, but there is no point. Many people point at us like we are some kind of example to follow (no sales or income tax) but let me tell you, they get you in other ways, and in amounts you wouldn't believe. There is only a "New Hampshire advantage" if you are very wealthy, with enough income so that your property taxes are far more affordable than an income tax would be.
I pay over 4 grand a year in property tax for a 1 story, 2 bedroom house.
My car costs over $400 a year to register, and I know people who pay $800 to register 4WD F250's.
http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/468.html
NH has the second-lowest state and local tax burden as a percentage of income of any state in the country. It's been one of the five lowest for the past decade.

NH looks more and more appealing every day.

Art Eatman
January 15, 2006, 01:12 PM
Enough about taxes; back to the thread, please...

Art

mattx109
January 16, 2006, 03:09 AM
Vermont's stance on carry is excellent, certainly. I've carried since it was legal for me to do so and have never once had a problem. No ambiguity about how one needs to carry in a vehicle, or confusion about whether or not a "no firearms" sign is to code.

That said, Vermont's politics are varied. There isn't a north-south division as some have stated; the division is vague. The mayor of Burlington, Clavelle, is a progressive, but he's on his way out. The chances that a conservative will be voted in are slim. Burlington's population is quite liberal. Between here and Canada there's a striking absence of that viewpoint, and in the rural southern and northeastern parts of the state it's the same. The urban (if you can really call them that) areas tend to see the largest liberal influence, but it's mostly around Burlington.

A lot of the people who might oppose Vermont's carry stance don't really seem to know much about it. It's a non-issue here on the street. Bring it up with a high-income Burlingtonian unfamiliar with the laws and you're likely to get a wide-eyed look of disbelief, and maybe a few words of disagreement, but nothing more. We don't have the high crime rates needed by carry opponents to convince the general public of their views.

Cosmoline
January 16, 2006, 04:44 AM
Cosmoline: I agree with you here 100%...all three states are being invaded by the flatlanders, but there is some hope... all three, VT, NH, and ME, have a sort of dividing line, north/south, where the southern parts of the states seem to be liberal democrat bastions, and the northern parts conservative republican... .

I saw the same thing happen to my former home state of Oregon, as more and more and more and more **********n scum infiltrated the state. There are patches of the old Oregon, but they are getting fewer and fewer. Bend, which was a logging town when I was growing up, is now a yuppified upscale subdivision. Ashland might as well be in **********. The bulk of the valley has gone over to the enemy. I can't even stand being back there now.

Silver Bullet
January 16, 2006, 09:45 AM
Who was governor of Vermont throughout the establishment of most of these standards?
Howard Dean.
Not bad for a so-called left-wing liberal.
Sounds like he had sense enough to stay back out of the way while people with skills and vision went to work. Unusual for a socialist.

You're right: "not bad" !

Camp David
January 16, 2006, 10:33 AM
Vermont's stance on carry is excellent, certainly. I've carried since it was legal for me to do so and have never once had a problem. No ambiguity about how one needs to carry in a vehicle, or confusion about whether or not a "no firearms" sign is to code.

That said, Vermont's politics are varied. There isn't a north-south division as some have stated; the division is vague. The mayor of Burlington, Clavelle, is a progressive, but he's on his way out. The chances that a conservative will be voted in are slim. Burlington's population is quite liberal. Between here and Canada there's a striking absence of that viewpoint, and in the rural southern and northeastern parts of the state it's the same. The urban (if you can really call them that) areas tend to see the largest liberal influence, but it's mostly around Burlington.

A lot of the people who might oppose Vermont's carry stance don't really seem to know much about it. It's a non-issue here on the street. Bring it up with a high-income Burlingtonian unfamiliar with the laws and you're likely to get a wide-eyed look of disbelief, and maybe a few words of disagreement, but nothing more. We don't have the high crime rates needed by carry opponents to convince the general public of their views.

Matt... Thanks for your post but I humbly disagree... I think you confirmed yourself (see highlighted portion of your post above) that Montpelier and Burlington's progressive and largely anti-gun policies are not shared by communities to the north (Milton, St. Albans, Highgate, etc.) thus my point about a seeming dividing line in the state....wherein pro-gun support is high. Try following the state's law to the letter and wearing a gun down Main Street in Montpelier or Barre (!)... you would not get far... yet this is common practice in St. Albans, Swanton, and points north east: Fairfax, Cambridge, Jeffersonville, etc. ! Thus I feel the dividing line in state is a valid observation....

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