Post YOUR Favorite Self Defense handloads!!


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halvey
January 9, 2006, 11:45 AM
Since 70% of respondents to a recent poll state they use handloads for self defense loads, let's post your favorite loads here!

Me first...
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
.44 mag
300 gr hard cast lead,
18.0 gr Alliant 2400

Post away!

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taliv
January 9, 2006, 01:14 PM
hornady xtp 200g .451
vhitavuori n320
speer nickel brass
fed 150 primers

clocks in right at 900fps

dakotasin
January 9, 2006, 01:21 PM
40 s&w
8.4 power pistol
150 nosler hollow point

1215 f/s +/-.

trickyasafox
January 9, 2006, 05:39 PM
winchester 115 gr hp
5 gr bullseye
remington sp primers
1150 fps and pretty soft shooter out of a g17


this is a max load, approach with caution, no one is responsible for your safety but you

Lennyjoe
January 9, 2006, 06:52 PM
.45 ACP +P load;
Speer 200gr Gold Dot JHP
8.0gr Power Pistol
Winchester LP primers
Winchester brass

Shoots at 925 fps out of my 4" Kimber and is very accurate. Little bit of a flash though. :D

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

10MM;
180gr Hornady XTP
9.6gr 800X (Warning, this exceeds suggested max powder load)
Starline brass
WLP primers.
691 fpe @ 1315 fps.

popbang
January 9, 2006, 08:39 PM
In 45 Colt I use

230 grain Gold Dot
9.8 grains N340
Fed. large pistol primers
Starline Brass
OAL 1.600

Johnny Guest
January 9, 2006, 09:24 PM
In general, it is accepted that there can be some serious drawbacks to using handloads for self defense purposes. That's already been hashed out recently, and I appreciate that no one's trying to veer this thread back to that discussion.

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

.357 magnum: 162 gr. LSWC from a Saeco mold over 7.0 gr. of Unique. Around 1050 fps from a 3" barreled S&W M65. Accurate, highly controlable, good penetration.

.45 Colt: 276 gr. LSWC from an old Lyman mold over 8.0 gr of Unique, H. Universal, OR 231. Not particularly hot, it works very well from my 626-6 S&W Mountain Gun.

These are special purpose loads, unavailable from the factories. Pretty much any other caliber, there's a factory load that suits me quite well.

Best,
Johnny
I can get

The Bushmaster
January 9, 2006, 10:27 PM
House loads in both night stands...Warning: These are over recommended charges by Winchester load manual. Load at your own risk and work up to them slowly...140 grain SJHP (Remington) over 5.0 grains of W231 and WSP primed. I would use my .357 magnum except for the "short" time being I live in an old folk's trailer park.:D

[BOLD FACE added by moderator.] Thank you moderator...

Kurac
January 9, 2006, 11:30 PM
um, OK,

.44 MAG in brand new nickel plated brass
210gr Winchester silver tip lubed with synthetic teflon grease (to make the cartridge waterproof) seated over 27 grains of H110 for a modest 1,550 fps out of a 6" barrel.

Catshooter
January 10, 2006, 12:06 AM
First, the required:

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

9mm

115 gr. JHP from Remington over 5.9 to 6.2 gr of Universal Clays, depending on the lot of powder it runs about 1350 fps.

I individually inspect each round for the following:

Primer: there is an explosive pellet and an anvil

Brass: I use only once-fired as I then know there is indeed a flash hole and that the case is capable of properly containing both a bullet and a primer.

Powder: That level of charge is too big to double charge without spilling it everywhere and I see each charge placed before it gets a bullet.


Cat

PaulTX
January 10, 2006, 12:54 PM
For .45 ACP I like 7.2 grs. of Power Pistol under a 230 gr. XTP bullet. This is max for P. You could go to 7.5 grs. which is +P. I get about 880 fps in a 5" 1911 using 7.2 grs.

Paul

pcf
January 10, 2006, 03:10 PM
357 Magnum:
Starline Case
Hornady 125gr HP
9.4gr VV N340
Federal Small Pistol Primer
1420fps from 4" barrel
(current load)

Starline Case
Winchester 140gr HP
16.8gr VV N110
Federal Magnum Small Pistol primer
1490fps from 4" barrel

Starline case
Hornady 158gr HP
12.6gr VV N110
Federal Magnum Pistol Primer
1400 FPS from 4" barrel
(doubles as hunting load)

I'm a fan a Vihtavouri powders expensive, but they have very low flash.

WmCC
January 10, 2006, 11:12 PM
Howdy,

Here's a slightly different twist on the subject. After 50 years of reloading; including a great deal of time with targets, a chronograph, a Fackler water box, (denim), and a great deal of reading, here's the final result. If I can make a BETTER LOAD than commercially available, I do so and carry it. The following have tested extremely well and are in service at this this time. Note: I have tested virtually all of the premium bullets currently available, including the revised HST...this has required downloading and reloading those bullets not available as components.

1. 380ACP: Quality factory 95g ball at 850fps (out of a relatively short barrel). Penetration is critical with this cartridge.

2. 9mm: 124g Ranger TP...superb.

3. 38 Special +P: Reloaded ammo produced by downloading and uploading factory ammo. Speer 135g Gold Dot, factory case, primer and bullet over 5.4g AA#2, max load per Sierra (ONLY). For comparison, the factory round chrono'd at 860fps out of my S&W 637 and 642,respectively, at 70 deg. F. This reload at 19,000 psi produces 930 fps with no muzzle flash and is an extremely smooth and accurate shooter. Besides, its factory ammo, right! Agencies do not normally test powder/ powder residue when unexpended ammo and the factory box is available following a justified shoot. In developing this load, I tested PP, Unique, AA #5, U. Clays, 231 and Bullseye with this bullet....the AA#2 performed the best out of the short barrel. This is a PRIMARY "light" CCW combo.

4. 357 MAG: Factory Gold Dot. Wife's weapon and load of choice on the horse farm.

5. .40 S&W: 165g Win. Ranger T (factory). Primary home defense choice as well as "medium" CCW...again, superb.

6. 44 MAG: The 200g 44 (Special) Gold Dot over various loads giving 1050 to 1100fps, for felons. I use the 240g Gold Dot, (revved up a bit), out of my Lew Horton 3" Smith for larger critters. I keep this load in the event that a vet is not available and I'm forced to put down one of our horses, or a neighbor's animal.

7. 45ACP: Nothing tests as well as the 230g Ranger T +P at 980fps out of a 5" barrel. This is an incredible load. You just can't do much better without a shotgun.

Bottom-line, again, I carry/use reloads when I can TRUMP factory performance, (read ballistics and TERMINAL PERFORMANCE), and do so safely.

Regards,

robertbank
January 12, 2006, 12:39 AM
This may surprise you folks but I go with what I shoot all the time:

200 Gr LSWC
5.3 Gr Win 231
Win LPP

This load is accurate and manageable in my guns. If this load doesn't solve the problem I am in a world of hurt.

Stay Safe

bogie
January 12, 2006, 12:56 AM
A whole buncha W296.

A cute widdle 125 grain hollowpoint.

A newish .357 case with a magnum primer.

If you miss 'em, the fireball will take care of 'em.

BigSlick
January 12, 2006, 01:36 AM
Hornady 155gr XTP
5.6gr Titegroup
1.115 OAL
WSP
Starline brass (once fired by me)

Freaky accurate, it's like driving nails. A little slower than factory offerings, but much more controllable, and zero muzzle flash. Definitely the sweet spot.

In the Commander, I carry Federal HydraShoks in 230gr.

BigSlick

Werewolf
January 12, 2006, 01:05 PM
.45 ACP
Hornady 230gr XTP
8.2gr AA#5
WLP Primer
Chronos at 860 FPS out of a 5" bbl

EBRDude
January 12, 2006, 08:46 PM
This is not a Max load. Proceed with caution.

357 SIG

125gr Gold Dot
Starline once fired cases
Winchester Small Pistol Primer
10.5 grains Blue Dot
1.135 COAL
Firm crimp

Around 1450-1500fps From my XD357, very accurate, lots of flash and noise too.

Kamicosmos
January 13, 2006, 05:44 AM
Quick question:

Why so many loads using over max data?

You're counting on that load to save your life. What if it's a bit too hot, and you blow a primer out, or split a case? Could lead to an unresolvable weapon malfunction. I don't think the few extra FPS gained are worth that risk.

My self defense loads are the same as my range fodder loads for the most part, as far as powder charge. All of my handloads are well under book max loads. The only change between range and SD loads is bullet quality. Cheapo plated for the range, high quality jacketed for SD. But, that requires changing velocities in some calibers, and means it's 'different' ammo. So I have been using only high quality bullets in my loads for a while now once I ran out of cheap bullets. At the volumes I shoot, the extra couple of bucks per 500 bullets isn't worth the extra fiddling with the powder thrower...and now I don't have to worry about keeping my Magnums under 1300fps. ;)

The Bushmaster
January 13, 2006, 10:03 PM
I agree with you, but I am loading for two Mod 10 S&Ws and they have been shooting this (my above post) "fodder" for the past 20 years without incident and no undue wear on either hand gun. Both are still tight...:cool: As far as why over load (which isn't that much)? to get the job done in a trailer park where a .357 magnum would really be too much...Go to my .45 ACP? Wife's hands are too small to deal with the Colt. Hell...She can't even rack it...:D

trickyasafox
January 13, 2006, 11:47 PM
my guess for the overloading is that many reloading books are conservative to accomodate older firearms that may not be up to modern specs. they'd rather they told us to shoot light, then run a heavy round through an unstable platform

David4516
January 14, 2006, 07:09 AM
After a fair ammount of testing I found the Hornady XTP and Bullseye powder to be a good combo in small blow-back pistols.

The following loads have worked well for me in my partiular handguns. Your results may vary. They are somewhat "hot" and should be used with caution.

9mm Makarov (aka 9 X 18):

Bullet: 95gr Hornady XTP
Powder: 4.1gr Bullseye
Case: Starline or Speer
Primer: CCI
Handgun: Bulgarian Makarov

Results: 1040 FPS, expanded to about .60 caliber when fired into water


.25 ACP (yes, I'm crazy enough to handload for it):

Bullet: 35gr Hornady XTP
Powder: 1.7gr Bullseye
Case: Winchester
Primer: CCI
Handgun: Beretta "Jetfire" Model 950

Results: 975 FPS, expaned to about .32 caliber when fired into water

Powderman
January 14, 2006, 07:45 AM
I am fortunate in that I use Department issue ammunition, which is RA45T.

If I were to reload, though, I would look seriously at (believe it or not) 7.5 of Herco, with the Montana Gold 185 grain bullet. This is a surprisingly controllable load, it cycles a pistol with an 18 pound spring, and is VERY accurate and clean burning.

Or, you could step it up to 8.0, and approach 1000 fps. 8.0 of Unique will get you 1000, as well as 8.0 of Power Pistol, according to the manual.

For defensive use, though, you might think before using Power Pistol. The reason is that this powder is flashy! I heard that this is the powder Federal uses behind the Hydra-Shok bullet; I know that 6.5 of Power Pistol behind a 230 grain slug is a powerful and snappy load. Use with a shok-buff--no kidding here!

gremlin_bros
January 14, 2006, 08:46 AM
i use commercial loads for defensibility in court. same reason the cop's are not allowed to use custom loads. commercial is easer for the lawyer to defend in court. that said i use federal premium hydra-shocks in all my hand guns and 00 buck in my Mossberg.

Navy joe
January 15, 2006, 05:56 PM
9mm
WCC NATO OFB
115gr XTP
WSP
5.0 Titegroup
1.100"

A freakily accurate defense round out of my Glocks.

MachIVshooter
January 17, 2006, 12:40 AM
10mm Auto
Remington Nickel brass
Remington 180 grain Golden Sabre
CCI350 magnum large pistol primers
10.8 grains IMR 800-x

5" barrel: 1406 FPS; 790 ft/lbs
3.5" barrel: 1342 FPS; 720 ft/lbs

This load gives penetration ranging from 13" to 17" in ballistic clay and expansion is ~.8". The same load using Speer 180 gr. TMJ gives over 20" of penetration with no expansion.

I figure if 11 rounds of that doesn't do my bidding, I should have had a rifle.

MM
January 17, 2006, 02:04 AM
Not to piss in the party's punch bowl, but you might give some consideration to the defensibility, in court, of hand loads, should you have to defend yourself with same. Apparently, from my readings, a sharp prosecutor will use this as a premise to try to prove any number of erroneous points which will make little sense to a gunner, but may paint that same gunner in a bad light to a less than gun savvy jury...
SatCong

Lennyjoe
January 17, 2006, 10:10 AM
Concidered.

Werewolf
January 17, 2006, 11:55 AM
Not to piss in the party's punch bowl, but you might give some consideration to the defensibility, in court, of hand loads, should you have to defend yourself with same. Apparently, from my readings, a sharp prosecutor will use this as a premise to try to prove any number of erroneous points which will make little sense to a gunner, but may paint that same gunner in a bad light to a less than gun savvy jury...
SatCongNo one has to this date ever produced even a tiny shred of evidence that using handloads in a self defense shooting has been used by a prosecutor in his argument let alone won a case based on it. Masaad Ayoob postulates what you have noted but at this point that's all it is - postulation.

BUT - if you have evidence to the contrary please cite it as it would end a very long standing argument in the gun community as well as here on the High Road.

MM
January 17, 2006, 03:26 PM
Loup,
My conjecture was the result of reading Mr. Ayoob's writings on the subject. Makes sense to me, as a lawyer would be remiss, in my opinion, if he failed to postulate any arguement that migh help his client win.
SatCong

Al Norris
January 17, 2006, 05:35 PM
SatKong, go read THIS (http://thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=172213) thread. It is here at THR. It is 177 posts long. Mas and several others discuss this very issue. By reading the pros and cons, you may have an informed opinion, which may or may not agree with your present "conjecture."

At least do the homework.

8.5 gr TightGroup
WLP primer
240 gr Hornady XTP
Vaquero in .44 w/5.25 inch barrel.

Sport45
January 17, 2006, 05:58 PM
No one has to this date ever produced even a tiny shred of evidence that using handloads in a self defense shooting has been used by a prosecutor in his argument let alone won a case based on it. Masaad Ayoob postulates what you have noted but at this point that's all it is - postulation.

BUT - if you have evidence to the contrary please cite it as it would end a very long standing argument in the gun community as well as here on the High Road.

That's all fine and dandy, but I don't want to be the benchmark case for this. Kind of like the old west movie where the guy with a 6-shooter holds back the mob. They all know how many shots he has, but nobody wants to be one of the six.......(neither do I)

ChristopherG
January 17, 2006, 06:11 PM
I vote everyone who is worried about the legal implications of using handloads starts thread number 9,987,332,789,434 about that topic, and let others answer the question at the head of this thread, which clearly presupposes a decision one way or the other about that terribly overhashed debate.

Thanks, and here's another one, for open country/woods carry:

Starline 45 AutoRim cases
6.2 gr. 231
255 gr. LSWC (i.e., a '45 colt' bullet)
Roll-crimped at crimp groove.

Does 900 fps from my 4" 625, which is thus made into a reassuring outdoors gun.

callgood
January 17, 2006, 06:17 PM
[QUOTE=ChristopherG]I vote everyone who is worried about the legal implications of using handloads starts thread number 9,987,332,789,434 about that topic, .........................QUOTE]

I second. All in favor, say "aye." All opposed, bye.

MM
January 17, 2006, 06:42 PM
Al,
Do your own homework, I merely suggested it would be reasonable to "consider" the implications. If that suggestion chafes your balls, then you need a liitle salve, boy.
SatCong

The Bushmaster
January 17, 2006, 10:27 PM
Ease up son...As they have said. It has already been discussed. My throw on this is if anyone has been prosecuted and lost because of Hand loads please stand up...No?? Then end of subject...:D

gremlin_bros
January 17, 2006, 11:04 PM
Not to piss in the party's punch bowl, but you might give some consideration to the defensibility, in court, of hand loads, should you have to defend yourself with same. Apparently, from my readings, a sharp prosecutor will use this as a premise to try to prove any number of erroneous points which will make little sense to a gunner, but may paint that same gunner in a bad light to a less than gun savvy jury...
SatCong
is't this what i said in my earler post???

The Bushmaster
January 17, 2006, 11:51 PM
I hate it when this happens...Don't you??

The Bushmaster
January 17, 2006, 11:55 PM
Wait...Let me go back to the beginning...Oh yeah...I see it...This string deals with what is "YOUR favorite Self Defence handload". Has nothing to do with handloads verses factory loads...:banghead:

Clark
January 18, 2006, 02:24 AM
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

I would prefer to defend myself with a 12 gauge with factory ammo, but for carrying other guns, if I wanted a one shot stop I would use one of my overloads.....

25acp 50 gr 3.2 gr Bullseye
32S&W 71 gr 4.5 gr Blue Dot
32acp 110 gr 5.2 gr Power Pistol
32 S&W Long 110 gr 12 gr H110
32-20 86 gr 17 gr H110
7.62x25mm 110 gr 10 gr Power Pistol
380 158 gr 8.5 gr Power Pistol
9mm 158 gr 11 gr Power Pistol
9x23mm 158 gr 16 gr Power Pistol [double the 357 mag load]
38 sp 158 gr 26 gr LIL'GUN
38 S&W 158 gr 7.9 gr Blue Dot
40 S&W 200 gr 15.5 gr 800X [the 44 mag max load]
10mm 200 gr 14.2 gr 800X
45acp 185 gr 16.5 gr AA#5
45 auto rim 230 gr 24 gr H110
45 Colt 405 gr 40 gr H110 [double the 454 load]
45/70 405 gr 32 gr Unique [not quite double the Ruger #1 load]
308 168 gr 52 gr H335
8x57mm 200 gr 52 gr IMR4895

PaulS
January 18, 2006, 02:53 AM
My favorite self-defense handload is:

for the house:
Remington RXP 2 3/4" 12 Ga hull
32 gr of HS-6
WAA12W wad
1 1/4 oz #9 shot
Muzzle Velocity 1340 fps

for carry:
Winchester 357 Magnum case
Speer 140 gr JHP
17.4 gr of H-110 Some manuals list this as above recommended load, some don't
Winchester WSP primer
Muzzle velocity 1450

griz
January 18, 2006, 08:04 AM
Home cast 50 cal HBWC target bullet lubed with bore butter, 85 grains FFG, CCI cap.

Never had to use it so I can't comment on the legal aspects:evil:

Al Norris
January 18, 2006, 09:41 AM
I think someones feathers are a bit ruffled. A bit off topic also.

m0ntels
January 18, 2006, 04:18 PM
38 sp 158 gr 26 gr LIL'GUN

From Hodgdon under 357 MAGNUM!
158 GR. HDY XTP
COL: 1.580"
LIL'GUN 18.0
1577 fps
25,800 CUP

I'd rather be on the receiving end of that J-frame than holding it! :uhoh:

Randy

halvey
January 18, 2006, 04:31 PM
Originally Posted by SatKong
Not to piss in the party's punch bowl, but you might give some consideration to the defensibility, in court, of hand loads, should you have to defend yourself with same. Apparently, from my readings, a sharp prosecutor will use this as a premise to try to prove any number of erroneous points which will make little sense to a gunner, but may paint that same gunner in a bad light to a less than gun savvy jury...
SatCong Massad's big argument concerns GSR and with handloads that cannot be duplicated. Point to consider. Yet, in the following case, sounds like factory ammo doesn't really answer a lot of questions either.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/13654907.htm
Vick trial: Ammo expert tries to bolster state's case

A ballistics expert testified this morning that the bullet lodged in slain St. Paul police Sgt. Gerald Vick's body was a special kind of ammunition that didn't produce gunshot residue when fired.

Prosecutors called consultant Paul Szabo to the stand to try to explain to jurors why police found no gunshot residue on defendant Harry Evan's hands, but did find traces of the substance on the hands of star witness Antonio Kelly.

Evans, 33, is on trial for first- and second-degree murder. Vick was fatally shot in an alley outside of an East Side tavern around 2:20 a.m. on May 6. Vick and his partner had been working undercover investigation prostitution at bars that night when they confronted Evans and his companion Kelly outside Erick's Bar.

Evans has pleaded not guilty and has accused his friend Kelly of pulling the trigger.

Prosecutors told the jury during an opening statement that Evan's DNA was found on the murder weapon, but defense attorneys countered that Kelly had lead and barium particles ó or gunshot residue ó on his hands, proving Kelly fired the gun.

Szabo, who works for the Winchester ammunition division of Olin Corporation, said the Winchester .38-caliber bullet recovered by the medical examiner, labeled Exhibit 2, is a WinClean type that is designed to eliminate airborne lead when fired.

"This is a brand intended for target shooting at indoor ranges," said Szabo.
Szabo said that bullet, which uses a lead-free priming mix and is sealed, would not produce gunshot residue. But under cross-examination by defense attorneys, Szabo testified that while the interior of a WinClean bullet is sealed, it still contains lead. Szabo said he knew of no study that proves that interior lead couldn't escape upon firing.

Police recovered one of the three bullets that struck Vick and five shell casings near the murder weapon.

Szabo examined the shell casings and said he could not tell just by looking at the casings whether all the ammunition found by police was WinClean.

Clark
January 18, 2006, 04:41 PM
From Hodgdon under 357 MAGNUM!
158 GR. HDY XTP
COL: 1.580"
LIL'GUN 18.0
1577 fps
25,800 CUP

I'd rather be on the receiving end of that J-frame than holding it! :uhoh:

Randy


It was all that would fit, gets less velocity than the 18 gr load, but kicks harder and makes more noise. The extra gas might help in self defense.
http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=117070&#2

Carl N. Brown
January 18, 2006, 04:42 PM
Clark's post stated on topic. (atomic loads but on topic)

m0ntels
January 18, 2006, 05:02 PM
Well at least I know I'll have a more than fair safety margin with Lil Gun when I get around to experimenting with it. I dont think I could mentally handle double charging on purpose though...lol As long as Clark is willing to be the guinea pig, keep the atomic data coming :eek: :D

Randy

Lennyjoe
January 18, 2006, 06:34 PM
10mm 200 gr 14.2 gr 800X
:what:

I almost blew up my 1006 with 10.6 gr of 800X under 200gr XTP's. How in the heck did you get up that high without splitting your barrel:confused:

Clark
January 20, 2006, 12:28 AM
The 10mm brass design is weak, weaker than large primer 7.62x39mm brass.
But the Glock 20 feed ramp intrusion is even worse, causing case bulge before the primer falls out.

I got a Bar-Sto aftermarket barrel, and worked up higher than I could with the stock Glock barrel.

My email to the gunzone pops up first on google:
http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=glock+20+feed+ramp&btnG=Google+Search

Anyway, if anyone finds any small primer 10mm brass for sale, tell me about it.

meinbruder
January 20, 2006, 02:43 AM
Massad's big argument concerns GSR and with handloads that cannot be duplicated. Point to consider. Yet, in the following case, sounds like factory ammo doesn't really answer a lot of questions either.

http://www.twincities.com/mld/twincities/13654907.htm
Vick trial: Ammo expert tries to bolster state's case

A ballistics expert testified this morning that the bullet lodged in slain St. Paul police Sgt. Gerald Vick's body was a special kind of ammunition that didn't produce gunshot residue when fired.

Prosecutors called consultant Paul Szabo to the stand to try to explain to jurors why police found no gunshot residue on defendant Harry Evan's hands, but did find traces of the substance on the hands of star witness Antonio Kelly.

Evans, 33, is on trial for first- and second-degree murder. Vick was fatally shot in an alley outside of an East Side tavern around 2:20 a.m. on May 6. Vick and his partner had been working undercover investigation prostitution at bars that night when they confronted Evans and his companion Kelly outside Erick's Bar.

Evans has pleaded not guilty and has accused his friend Kelly of pulling the trigger.

Prosecutors told the jury during an opening statement that Evan's DNA was found on the murder weapon, but defense attorneys countered that Kelly had lead and barium particles ó or gunshot residue ó on his hands, proving Kelly fired the gun.

Szabo, who works for the Winchester ammunition division of Olin Corporation, said the Winchester .38-caliber bullet recovered by the medical examiner, labeled Exhibit 2, is a WinClean type that is designed to eliminate airborne lead when fired.

"This is a brand intended for target shooting at indoor ranges," said Szabo.
Szabo said that bullet, which uses a lead-free priming mix and is sealed, would not produce gunshot residue. But under cross-examination by defense attorneys, Szabo testified that while the interior of a WinClean bullet is sealed, it still contains lead. Szabo said he knew of no study that proves that interior lead couldn't escape upon firing.

Police recovered one of the three bullets that struck Vick and five shell casings near the murder weapon.

Szabo examined the shell casings and said he could not tell just by looking at the casings whether all the ammunition found by police was WinClean.


I donít get something at this point. Two suspects, one gun, clean fire ammo. One suspect (err, witness) has GSR on his hands, the other does not: the second suspect leaves DNA on the gun, the first does not. If this were a riddle, I would have to say that both suspects fired a different gun.

Whatís next? .38 caliber and five cases recovered ďnearĒ the weapon, was the gun reloaded? Was there more than one gun?

So the expert could identify the cartridge cases as WinClean type but couldnít identify it as WinClean Brand? I have some Plus Ones around here if it will help him read the head stamps. If I scratch my head long enough I can find a pair of 1.25ís. He even stated that no study could prove that lead from the interior of the bullet wouldnít escape. Was the jacket intact? Are they sure the expert works for Winchester?!? :confused:

I didnít go to law school, but Iím pretty sure I could drive an 84-passenger school bus through the holes in this testimony.

Iím sorry if this post isnít on topic for a hand loading thread but the story in the paper just doesnít make any sense. :cuss::
Mike
Portland, Or.

palerider1
January 20, 2006, 02:44 AM
.45 caliber 165gr federal hydroshok.........mean little babys

Gewehr98
February 3, 2006, 12:46 PM
Save for one.

No disclaimer needed, either:

500gr swaged spitzer, sized .459" lubed with lard/beeswax mix

Vintage REM-UMC balloon-head .45-70 brass

60.0gr Goex FFFg black powder, drop-tubed from 3' above

5.0gr Winchester 231 "kicker" against the primer

Winchester Large Rifle primer

Ox-Yoke .45 pre-lubed Wonder Wad between powder and bullet

Powder charge compressed about 0.30" during bullet seating

Good for 1200+ fps from my 32" Sharps. 1000 foot-pounds available to nearly 400 yards, then 2-legged critters beyond that. No GSR, btw.

"Yes, your Honor, I know most defensive shootings happen inside of 21 feet..." :D

kimbernut
February 3, 2006, 04:29 PM
CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.

1911 4" & 5" Platform
.45ACP 5.0 gr Titegroup,WLP, 230 gr. Rem. Golden Saber, OAL 1.250

Colt Pocket Nine
9mm Luger 4.4 gr Titegroup,WSP,124 gr. Rem. Golden Saber, OAL 1.090

Oh yeah BTW , aye already. Some folks are ".... more fun than an all night dentist." Borrowed from Gator

JackOfAllTradesMasterAtNone
February 3, 2006, 05:05 PM
In the Colt Cobra for the wife-
Factory Win .38spl 125gn +P j swc hp

In the Colt Officer's for me- Win 185gn JHP

In the Kimber for me- My Bullseye target loads. 4gns of Bullseye pushing the same Lyman molded lead. Deadly accurate.

In the Ruger P85 truck gun- 115gn Hydrashocks or my loads of 115gn Sierra hp's. Double tap would be the rule.

-Steve

azredhawk44
February 3, 2006, 07:11 PM
.44magnum handloads:what:

240gr very soft Rainier hollow point plated over whatever powder I have that will push it at about 1000fps. This is a slow, controllable .44mag:what: load, especially in a big gun like a redhawk. Repeated double action shots are a breeze. That's for home defense. The woods load is a Sierra 300gr JSP under lots of 296 or H110.

.357magnum handloads:what:

158gr LSWC, again with mid-to-low levels of moderate powders that push the pill at about 1100 or so. This is shot out of a sp101 with excellent accuracy and follow-up shot capability.

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