Open carry.


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V4Vendetta
January 9, 2006, 08:15 PM
In North Carolina, if I have a permit for the gun & carry a gun openly on my hip, is that illegal? I know that you must have a permit for a handgun & another to carry concealed, but I'm not sure about open carry. Any LEO's or lawyers know?:confused:

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1911Tuner
January 9, 2006, 08:25 PM
Howdy V4,

Legal, BUT...There's also a statute on the books called "Going armed to the terror of the public." All it takes is one little old granny lady or soccer mom to
cause you some grief. Then, there's the matter of being openly armed
at the potential scene of a robbery making you the first target to take out.
Better to just slip it under your shirt or jacket and go about your business,
IMO.

Bruce333
January 9, 2006, 08:27 PM
I don't know of any law that prohibits open carry , but, GOING ARMED TO THE TERROR OF THE PEOPLE
By common law in North Carolina, it is unlawful for a person to arm himself with any
unusual and dangerous weapon, for the purpose of terrifying others, and go about on public
highways in a manner to cause terror to others. The N.C. Supreme Court has said that any
gun is an unusual and dangerous weapon for purposes of this offense. Therefore persons
are cautioned as to the areas they frequent with firearms.

http://www.jus.state.nc.us/NCJA/ncfirearmslaws.pdf

Add to that all the places you can't carry anyway.
I prefer concealed at all times...

geekWithA.45
January 9, 2006, 09:48 PM
This is a perfect example of bad jurisprudence leading what _might_ have been a good law down the drain.


As written, there are two elements of significance that the original drafters were trying to capture:

"unusual weapons": something on the order of giant flaming axes, or perhaps large spring loaded blades attached to the arm under the sleeve.

AND

"for the purpose of terrifying others": This strikes me as one of those laws where intentionality is key to the offence, evidence of such intention being linked to the persons behavior. Was the man simply transporting his flaming axe in his cart, or was he waving it around, shouting "yarg! hand over the booty?"

Stiletto Null
January 9, 2006, 09:51 PM
I dunno, man, a flaming axe is kinda "out there", regardless of carry condition. Maybe if it was turned off first.

outofbattery
January 9, 2006, 10:07 PM
"Armed to the Terror of the People" is a blanket charge that could easily land you in a world of suck.If you can legally CCW,why take the chance?
When I lived down there,it was most commonly used as an additional charge when someone had a firearm unlawfully carried in their car.You DO NOT have to be engaged in any activity that would in any way constitute terrorizing the people to be charged with it.For example,you're on your way back from the range and come up to a license checkpoint.Your unloaded rifle is being carried in the back of your SUV but the rear glass is darkly tinted.That rifle is now concealed and you're also armed to the terror of the people.At least that's what happened to someone I know.

V4Vendetta
January 10, 2006, 03:20 PM
That stinks. I was hoping to skip paying the $80.00 permit fee.:cuss: :fire: Thanks for the help anyway.

1911Tuner
January 10, 2006, 04:37 PM
Many places in North Carolina are diverse in how an openly displayed firearm is viewed. In one area, it may not even draw a second glance, while just 10 miles away, you get surrounded by nervous police officers...maybe issuing a verbal challenge to "freeze" with guns drawn, or at least with hands on'em.

Where in NC are you?

V4Vendetta
January 10, 2006, 05:02 PM
Stokes County. Close to Winston-Salem. I'm not going to reveal my full address on the internet:rolleyes: .

Smurfslayer
January 10, 2006, 06:29 PM
Legal, BUT...There's also a statute on the books called "Going armed to the terror of the public." All it takes is one little old granny lady or soccer mom to cause you some grief.

SS: True enough. This violation stems from the common law, but in NC's case they codified it. That PDF doesn't give a citation to read, soo....

It would appear that the author is referring to this case:

http://www.guncite.com/court/state/25nc418.html

Please see the closing sentence:

"For any lawful purpose--either of business or amusement--the citizen is at perfect liberty to carry his gun. It is the wicked purpose, and the mischievous result, which essentially constitute the crime. He shall not carry about this or any other weapon of death to terrify and alarm, and in such manner as naturally will terrify and alarm a peaceful people"

The court is drawing a distinction, which likely holds through present day that the element of intent is essential to conviction. As is commonly the case, a snippet is posted from a significant case leading one to believe something contrary to the actual findings of the court.

here's another significant NC case.

http://www.guncite.com/court/state/107se222.html

Tuner, I mean no affront (or "affray" :) ) or anything personal...

But, as always in the discussion of open carry, we have the ubiquitous:
Then, there's the matter of being openly armed
at the potential scene of a robbery making you the first target to take out.


:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

c'mon. This has been dubunked time and time again. I wonder if this really began as an Ayoobian myth, or if it is pre-Ayoob?

Now I'm not saying that in the realm of possibilities there isn't a viciously bitter and vindictive socialist soccer moms of Amerika, left of Stalin controller who might be either offended, or terrorized by a holstered gun, but in the realm of reality they will find that such activity is not going armed to the terror of the public.

Johnny_Yuma
January 10, 2006, 08:35 PM
It stems from common law, as posted. We also have numerous court cases that uphold the right to carry arms openly.

The "Open Carry to the Terror of the People" is the much mis-understood bogeyman of North Carolina jurisprudence that LE agencies have been using for years to scare people out of exercising their rights. There have been few convictions for this offense, most seeming to center around Klan-type activities or other instances of intimidation and harassment.

There are three parts to this offense, roughly: 1)The actor armed himself with an unusual and dangerous weapon, 2)went about the highways and by-ways of the state, and 3)in a manner and with the intent of causing terror amongst the people. It is a specific intent crime, meaning that the bad intent of the activity is a part of the offense and must be proved in court. Proving that a man carrying an ordinary pistol in a belt holster while he walks his poodle is out to cause terror is a big issue. The big issue that I see with this offense is that in some parts of the state (CARY comes to mind) it would be easy to find 12 namby-pamby panty-wetters transplanted from out of state who would gleefully overlook the specific-intent part of the crime. Indeed, there are many around here from out of state who simply could not belive that carrying a weapon is legal and that the bad man must be punished. That's a big IF that makes me a little cautious about open-carry in certain areas.

Most DAs seem to realize this is a loser case in most of the state, however. It is rarely charged, even in Mecklenburg county (urban Charlotte). Some cops, however, get a kick out of harassing open-carriers. Some of the local guys I've had to work with like to brag about harassing law-abiding citizens who are carrying. Their rationale is that the guy has a firearm, they need to go make certain he's not a convicted felon by running him through NCIC/NLETS. I tell them BS when I hear that. Do they check everyone walking in proximity to schools to make certain they aren't sex offenders? Do they shake down people standing in line to vote to make certain they aren't felons? Feh!

In urban areas around here, even the plainclothes LE keep their weapons covered. I've seen LEOs in some rural areas wearing street clothes, a badge, cuffs, and a pistol. In some of those same areas I've seen citizens open carrying - one old codger had a snub-nose revolver in the bib pocket of his overalls at the Thomasville Diner.

I am not a lawyer blah blah blah.

Smurfslayer
January 11, 2006, 02:42 AM
Ok so it's not codified... :confused: I meant no affray! ;)

We all have our "legal boogeymen", but oftent times the myth is far greater than the law, or it's enforcement and prosecution. Open carry was once described that way in Virginia not too many years ago - by Dave Workman as I recall.

Regardless of who did the particular write up, they couldn't have been more wrong. Just because people claim to have been to Virginia and "never saw anyone carrying a gun" has no basis in rational fact how often it's done. It happens far more than apologists care to admit, and not as often as it should. A very large contingent of VCDL refuse to be disarmed victims, as well as non members in VA. Does harassment happen? It did. Twice in recent memory and not once since because somebody stood up to them.

If you continue to give the bully your milk money, he's only going to demand more the next time.

1911Tuner
January 11, 2006, 09:01 AM
Smurflayer...Are you annoying me?:p

Don't be too sure it's a myth. Look up the case involving the WSPD officer
(Won't reveal his name here, but he's a friend of mine) who was moonlighting in a seafood restaurant on Main Street in...1989 I believe...Four little pukes staked it out for a robbery, and sat on a hill during the planning stages before embarking on their mission. They knew the cop was there, and when they entered the restaurant, one walked straight to him and shot him out of his seat. The cop was able to return fire and killed his assailant...and killed another one that was trying to get behind him after the first one dropped. The other two fled and were arrested later. One was caught by my brother-in-law at a MacDonalds in another part of the city about 6 hours after the shooting.

The officer survided his wounds...barely...with a left arm that's almost totally useless...and is now retired and living near the NC coast with his wife.

mbs357
January 11, 2006, 09:13 AM
"unusual weapons": something on the order of giant flaming axes,
:uhoh:

*puts Clutterbane away to pillage another day*

fletcher
January 11, 2006, 11:17 AM
Pretty much ditto on what everyone else said.

NC does not prohibit open carry, but local governments can. For example, near where I live, the town of Cary prohibits open carry (sounds funny), whereas none of the surrounding towns do.

Smurfslayer
January 11, 2006, 12:34 PM
They knew the cop was there, and when they entered the restaurant, one walked straight to him and shot him out of his seat.

Tuner? Do we need Seconds?
http://www.gutenberg.org/dirs/etext04/cduel10h.htm

:neener:

I look at your post and see 3 possible scenarios - they knew an actual cop was there, they saw a uniform and assumed security or cop, or saw the gun or otherwise knew of it. Drawing from your written text as accurate, you state they knew the cop was there. Yet they robbed anyway. These kinds of dirt bags aren't going to be deterred by any measure, if they're not going to be deterred by Johnny law. So in this instance it seems he was targeted because he was a cop - and of course, an armed threat.

I think this bolsters my point - you can point to one incident you are familiar with ... But this "workmanian/Ayoobian" myth has been perpetuated for years now with no - or very little - credible basis in fact. If it was true that open carry made you a "target" then patrol officers the country over would be dying in mass numbers. Most people just don't notice the gun no matter how big, shiny & obvious it is - I've had my 5" 627 go unnoticed by a great deal of people with a few observant examples catching it.

I think we've soundly established that tarheel open carry is just not as commonplace as in the Old Dominion... or as 'acceptable' I guess...

ball3006
January 11, 2006, 01:27 PM
but never in public. John Q does not have the need to know if I am armed or not.......chris3

Taipei Personality
January 11, 2006, 01:29 PM
Originally posted by fletcher
NC does not prohibit open carry, but local governments can. For example, near where I live, the town of Cary prohibits open carry (sounds funny), whereas none of the surrounding towns do.

I believe Cary is doing so illegally.

From the NC Statutes: LINK (http://www.ncga.state.nc.us/EnactedLegislation/Statutes/HTML/BySection/Chapter_14/GS_14-415.23.html)
14‑415.23. Statewide uniformity.

It is the intent of the General Assembly to prescribe a uniform system for the regulation of legally carrying a concealed handgun. To insure uniformity, no political subdivisions, boards, or agencies of the State nor any county, city, municipality, municipal corporation, town, township, village, nor any department or agency thereof, may enact ordinances, rules, or regulations concerning legally carrying a concealed handgun. A unit of local government may adopt an ordinance to permit the posting of a prohibition against carrying a concealed handgun, in accordance with G.S. 14‑415.11(c), on local government buildings, their appurtenant premises, and parks. (1995, c. 398, s. 1.)


Never mind. I suddenly realized that this statute specifically addresses concealed carry only. :o

WayneConrad
January 11, 2006, 01:37 PM
Even supposing open carry makes one a target, it's more important than my own personal safety: It's about not going to the back of the bus.

Johnny_Yuma
January 11, 2006, 10:18 PM
Crap, once again the unheard tone-of-voice on the Internet has been to my undoing.:eek:

I didn't mean that to sound the way you took it, but I can see why you might have read it that way.

Take care,

JY

1911Tuner
January 11, 2006, 10:38 PM
Smurf,

I'm aware that one incident does not a precedent make...but the account does make the point that there ARE people out there who will do that...and if they'd deliberately and with malice aforethought seek to take out a uniformed cop...would they heistate to do it to Joe Citizen?

Yes. The story was accurate. The uniformed officer saw them standing some distance away before the incident occurred...while he was out in the parking lot. They knew he was there. Later, when they walked in the door and started searching. Sgt. "D" saw them and wondered what they were looking for.
He told me that a heartbeat before they spotted him, he realized that they were looking for HIM. By that time, the first one, who had gone in a different direction was on him.

The shooting occurred at the Steamboat Seafood Restaurant on South Main in Winston-Salem...can't remember if it was May of '88 or '89, but I can find out. More than that I won't add, and I'll ask that if anyone here researches it and gets the details, that they not reveal his name.

Besides which...as ball stated...nobody needs to know that I'm armed. Consider that open carry also lays you open to a gun snatch, and it can be easily done if approached carefully from behind or assailed by two or more persons intent on getting your gun.

So...go ahead and carry openly if you feel the need. Me? I'll just cover it up and go about my business. No sense in alarming the soccer moms.

Smurfslayer
January 12, 2006, 10:57 AM
Crap, once again the unheard tone-of-voice on the Internet has been to my undoing.

Yuma - I took no offense, really, and meant no offense similarly. 'Affray' was mentioned in the case I linked. ;)

Tuner - Was the motivation for this incident actually the robbery, or was the robbery merely a target of opportunity as a side effect of the attack on Sgt. D?

You're right - in either answer to my question above, they would not be deterred uniform or not. But this is the statistical oddball, or patrol officers would be getting shot en masse... which they're not.
You're further right quoting Ball - nobody needs to know you're armed, or Ball, or anybody else for that matter.

Unfortunately for us the courts disagree with this sentiment. Universally. But for Vermont, and the original ruling in KY - Bliss vs. Commonwealth, courts have held that bearing arms as a protected right requires the arms be borne openly and that the states legislatures may prohibit concealment.

I've never induced soccer mom panic, nor have any of my friends here in VA. Although we have been approached by about half a dozen soccer moms asking for gun advice. One wanted some RKBA information for an accompanying 'soccer youngling'.

http://bighammer.net/pages/12/index.htm

The soccer mom youngling story is in there somewhere... I think it was at a Famous Dave's... I'll continue to open carry... and not alarm soccer moms:neener:

shotgunner
January 12, 2006, 11:06 AM
Not only all of that. My buddy lives in NC and he tells me that a LOT of people who do openly carry always get harassed by people who think they are tougher than them. He also says that people will instigate with you a LOT more because of this. If you have a CCWP then it's best that you just not let anybody know about it and keep it concealed.
Also another thing. I, myself, wouldn't want the world knowing that I'm carrying just for the simple fact that anonimity is a good thing. Especially because the LEO's would also harass you a LOT more often too. So it's best to avoid situations like that and just keep your secret to yourself.

I guess here in Michigan open carry is technically legal, but once you get in your car it becomes concealed and I've never seen anybody openly carrying because you'd just be inviting trouble.

Fred Fuller
January 12, 2006, 01:30 PM
In North Carolina, if I have a permit for the gun & carry a gun openly on my hip, is that illegal? I know that you must have a permit for a handgun & another to carry concealed, but I'm not sure about open carry.
====================

Disclaimers: IANAL, IANALEO

You have to get a permit to purchase in NC, but that is not 'a permit for the gun.' That's just assurance to the seller that you have jumped thru the hoop with the sheriff to prove you are a good law abiding citizen, and it has nothing to do with you carrying the gun after you buy it. In fact, the seller will keep the purchase permit...

As to getting a concealed carry permit, the cost of the entire process is less than the fee a decent attorney will charge for one mere hour of rendering professional services. Get a concealed carry permit if you want to carry, and memorize the following: Concealed means concealed. Of course there is a lot of yaddayadda about open carry in NC, there has been for decades. It is as "legal" as some local LEO wants it to be under whatever set of circumstances you find yourself mired in. It might take a goodly while at $300- 500 an hour to sort the whole thing out (with the help of your attorney of course). And it still might not get sorted out in your favor after all is said and done. Talk is cheap until your attorney opens his/her mouth...

But it's your money, and your life. Have fun. One more bit of free advice- take a day off, or a couple of days, and go down to the Superior Court (where felony criminal cases are tried) in your county when it is in session. Sit through a few hours of what passes for normal in a courtroom. The first time you are exposed to the 'sausage factory' at work shouldn't be when YOU are the one getting stuffed into the meatgrinder. Take a look at http://www.nccourts.org/County/Stokes/Default.asp and find the court calendar to plan your visit... or just go to http://www1.aoc.state.nc.us/www/calendars/Criminal.jsp?county=STOKES .

lpl/nc

1911Tuner
January 12, 2006, 03:27 PM
Question:

>Tuner - Was the motivation for this incident actually the robbery, or was the robbery merely a target of opportunity as a side effect of the attack on Sgt. D?<
***************

According to the two who escaped and got caught, they had planned the robbery for a few days, and decided at the moment of truth to "take the cop out" because it was evident that Sgt. D wasn't going to take a day off and get out of their way. Further investigation revealed a letter that one of the deceased had written to his girlfriend about money that would soon be available for their beach trip. Guess she went with somebody else. One of the casualties also had a folded grocery bag stuffed in his pants, probably intended to hold all they cash that they hoped to get.

"D" also reported that he hadn't had any sort of altercation with any of the suspects, either as juveniles or as adults. The oldest one killed was 22 or 23. The other one was 20. The two who survived were about 18 I think.

Smurfslayer
January 12, 2006, 04:47 PM
What a bunch of maroons....

It's good that D has lived to tell this tale. It sucks that there are people that stupid in the world as these clowns who tried to rob the place.

1911Tuner
January 12, 2006, 05:42 PM
What a bunch of maroons....

It's good that D has lived to tell this tale. It sucks that there are people that stupid in the world as these clowns who tried to rob the place.

Yep. One thing good that came from it was that armed robberies around Winston dropped to zip for about 3 months afterward. Guess they figured that WS's finest were completely serious about their jobs.;)

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