Terminated Co-Worker/Guns/Restraining Order


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OneMoreRound
January 9, 2006, 11:52 PM
For the past couple of Years Iíve been a lurker & not a poster. Just recently signed up and today I need some advise.

Recently a co-worker was terminated from my place of employment due to threats against fellow co-workers. Heís a very intimidating guy, having a major attitude. He made many threats and many people are afraid. The company has also hired security guards (unarmed) since his termination.

He recently became interested in guns and people know that I enjoy shooting on the weekends he came to me for advise and I guided him in regards to all aspects of obtaining a handgun in California Legally. He did purchase a couple of Glocks.

I was asked by a Manager who I also consider a friend to put this information in writing & I did so for the companyís records. The Company is now in the process of obtaining a Restraining order and asked of me to sign my statement for our companyís attorneys. I declined today & advised then Iíll think about it over night. The paperwork is just confirming that's he's a gun owner.

I would say he's a little unstable and would consider his threats to be a problem.

What do you guys think? Your advise will be appreciated. Sould I sign?

Thanks,

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UWstudent
January 10, 2006, 12:01 AM
depends if the records are available to the public.. if you can keep this information that you admitted that he's a legal gun owner in a secure database that is unavailable for public viewing (such as himself) then i would go ahead and sign it. but i believe restraining orders are mailed over to this guy to inform him that one has been issued so when he does violate the order, they'll prosecute him knowing he knew not to come over.

i guess it just matters if he asked the company what crediable witness confirmed he was a gun owner and they said it was you, then you could be on his bad list. but he might figure it out anyway since you gave him information to obtain a firearm.

i'm just puzzled that why would would the company put pressure on you? i suggest you ask the company to conduct their own investigation and have them "find out on accident" that he owns guns, on their own so you aren't entitled to being under any pressure when this unstable guy finds out that the company found out on their own.

chrisTx
January 10, 2006, 12:08 AM
i don't know what good a restraining order will really do. violating one is typically nothing more than a civil matter. in other words, if he's on the property, he's committing no criminal offense. the company would have to report his violation to the court and they would call him back in and fine him civilly.

in TX, we have a criminal trespass offense that is arrestable. we typically give out a warning prior to making an arrest though. it is used pretty often in situations like this.

if the company is seeking a restraining order (which as i said won't really do them a whole lot of good), they are going to have to probably have some justification for it, particularly if the premises houses other businesses.

i think if you sign, you could find yourself in court as a witness should a restraining order be issued and a violation reported. i don't really see any harm in doing so though. the company has an obligation to protect its employees. you're just contributing to that.

LSCurrier
January 10, 2006, 12:12 AM
Given that he made "many" threats and that co-workers are justifiably scared - I would make the necessary statement against the guy.

I figure that if the guy has problems due to his actions (his threats) then it is his problem and he should be prepared to pay the consequences. Your statement may assist in protecting against his carrying out his threats if he attempts to.

My 2 cents on the subject.

Luke

Edmond
January 10, 2006, 12:30 AM
Well, I can say for sure that a piece of paper and some unarmed guards aren't going to stop this guy from going in there and shooting people. That may sound harsh but it's the truth.

Standing Wolf
January 10, 2006, 12:48 AM
Well, I can say for sure that a piece of paper and some unarmed guards aren't going to stop this guy from going in there and shooting people. That may sound harsh but it's the truth.

Yep. A restraining order and $3.75 will get you a cup of coffee.

Stiletto Null
January 10, 2006, 12:51 AM
I dunno about signing the thing, but maybe you should consider keeping a couple of carbines around the office. :uhoh:

UWstudent
January 10, 2006, 12:56 AM
get yourself ur own glock and carry it :)

Stiletto Null
January 10, 2006, 12:58 AM
In California? :confused:

Preacherman
January 10, 2006, 01:00 AM
It's a question of being a responsible citizen. If you did teach this guy to shoot (or some things in that connection), then you are a primary witness to the fact that he has enough knowledge of firearms to make him a risk to others. Add that to his violent/threatening/in-your-face behavior, and this is prima facie evidence to support the issuing of a restraining order. Under the circumstances, I'd say you're honor-bound to provide the evidence your employers need to get the order.

I also agree with previous posters that a restraining order, in and of itself, won't protect the company or its employees against anything he might try - but at least it gives them a basis for legal action if he does anything short of going postal. With that order, if he violates it to issue more threats, he can be prosecuted and put away for a while. It can also serve a useful purpose for you - if things continue to escalate, you can talk to your employers about the need for armed security, and perhaps even get permission to be armed on the way to and from work (although for liability reasons, I doubt that they'll let you carry at work itself).

Finally, if you do provide evidence, it will be part of the public record (unless the judge agrees to seal it), and you may need to ramp up your own awaredness and preparedness levels, at least in the short term.

Waitone
January 10, 2006, 01:00 AM
Get to a lawyer. There may be more a work here than just paperwork. :scrutiny:

Waitone
January 10, 2006, 01:02 AM
Get to a lawyer. There may be more at work here than just paperwork. :scrutiny:

lucky_fool
January 10, 2006, 01:04 AM
I'm confused. Did you "guide him in regards to all aspects of obtaining a handgun" before or after you knew "he made many threats and many people are afraid"?

That said, since you live in California and he had to get a permit to purchase the guns the state already knows he has them and will confiscate them upon the issuance of a restraining order.

mete
January 10, 2006, 01:10 AM
If you knew he was unstable you should never have gotten involved with him ! At this point get a lawyer .

rock jock
January 10, 2006, 01:20 AM
I would add one thing: you should talk to the mmgt of your company and ask them what their plan is if this guy decides to "go postal." And I don't mean "DIAL 911."

What I'm getting at is I suggest you have a heart-to-heart with these guys and ask them that if they aren't willing to pay for armed guards will they be willing to sign a letter to the local sheriff supporting your request for a CCW. The first thing out their mouths will be "liability." At this point you should remind them that since they know this former worker is potentially dangerous that they would be liable if he did something that they could have prevented. Its long shot, but might be worth it.

TonkinTwentyMil
January 10, 2006, 01:21 AM
Maintain an openly cooperative attutude with your employer, but do NOT sign anything until you've consulted with an attorney -- YOURS, not your employer's.

I know it's a PITA, but it's an ounce of prevention.

At the very least, I think your employer needs to include some "Hold Harmless" clause with any statement you sign. In some worst case event, it's possible an anti-gun employer -- and the event's victim families -- could try to sue you for "aiding and abetting" said Disturbed/Violence-Prone person's scheme.

The employer also needs to agree to non-disclosure of your name as the "finger."

So, if they're naive enough to think some piece of paper (R.O.) is going to protect them, this betrays their mindset -- which is purely Covering Their A$$.

Have your lawyer prepare such a Hold Harmless agreement. If your employer balks, kiss their little game off. If they do accept such "protection" for you, request that it be documented in your personnel records as an indicator of your loyalty to the company. You might also request a handshake agreement for your employer to reimburse your (few hundred $$) legal expenses via a spot-bonus for loyalty, etc.

Even if nothing happens with this terminated/threatening employee, you don't want certain (anti-gun) corporate managers and lawyers being prejudiced against you in the future... just because you're a (*cough*) "potentially dangerous gun nut" and they ain't.

Been there. Seen that movie.

antsi
January 10, 2006, 01:43 AM
i don't know what good a restraining order will really do.

Well, obviously, if the psycho ex-employee comes back and shoots everyone (plus the unarmed security guards), he can be charged with violating the restraining order.

Ryder
January 10, 2006, 02:10 AM
Lots of people get screwed over by their employer and fellow employees. Some own guns and some don't. So what?

They fired a guy for excercising his first ammendment rights and now they want to work their way up to his second ammendment rights?

This isn't your problem. I would sign nothing.

Car Knocker
January 10, 2006, 02:28 AM
In California? :confused:

Last figures I saw showed something like 45,000 CCW permits in CA.

OneMoreRound
January 10, 2006, 02:46 AM
Thanks for all of your replies and comments. You have given me many more options keep them coming.

When I started to communicate with my co-worker he seemed to be a person of good character. I was not aware of his unstableness until it was too late. Iím not the only person that can verify his Gun Ownership but I believe Iím one of two. Iím totally with everyone a restraining order is just a piece of paper.

Preacherman, I didnít teach him to shoot. He was in the Army; US Govt trained him to shoot about 10 years ago or so. We did talk about safety and the process of obtaining a ďHandgun Safety CertificateĒ explained the 10 day wait period.

Rock Jock, My employers plan is just that call ď911Ē. CCW in Los Angeles County, I have a better chance of winning The California State Lottery or even now Mega Millions! We just got Mega Millions a couple of months ago. Iíll buy a ticket tomorrow.

motoman
January 10, 2006, 03:33 AM
I have often wondered what the point of unarmed security is? I have worked armed security in the past, and I would never consider putting on a uniform without also putting on a gun. If nothing else then for my own protection. A patch on a shirt isn't going to do you any good when a disgruntled ex-employee comes a shootin.

bogie
January 10, 2006, 11:04 AM
Yeah, the company I work for has the "dial 911 and wait" plan for the event that someone comes in shooting. The cop shop is about a half mile down the road, so I figure that the response time will be at least 1-2 minutes, minimum. My plan is to see if I can still run a fast 40 and heaven help whoever gets in my way between my office and the door... I don't turn too well anymore. They can take care of the shooter, and I'll still be around to say "I told you so."

Kramer Krazy
January 10, 2006, 11:07 AM
You're in a "Catch-22" situation. If you don't sign the papewrwork, your boss and others in higher-up positions may look down on you for not being willing to assist them. If the guy does come back and shoots up the place, then all sorts of fingers can be pointed at you......everyone wants a scape-goat. On the other hand, you sign the paperwork and word gets to your ex-coworker, somehow. He gets furious because he feels betrayed and doesn't like the fact that you are assisting your employer......now, you've just become one of the top 2 people he wants to "off" first. If he knows where you live, your family may be at risk, because he may be one of those that will hit your home first, then go to work, hoping that no one sees a connection until it is too late......I'd contact a lawyer and speak with my employer about being able to arm yourself, especially if you have a permit to carry. In my case, I have a permit to carry and I can't have a gun on company property. Several people know that if anything happens to me while on company property, my wife will get the best lawyer she can find and sue the cr*p out of them.

Zundfolge
January 10, 2006, 11:21 AM
So let me see if I have this straight.

Crazy ex employee has guns. Company wants to get restraining order based on this. State of California will send officers to confiscate his registered guns as soon as the ink drys on the paperwork, thus making a possibly nutso guy feel like a victim of statist oppression.


Anyone else here see a stick and a hornets nest? If he didn't really have any plans to "Go Postal" before this I can bet you he will afterward.

Werewolf
January 10, 2006, 11:42 AM
+1 Zundfolge...

You have a way of going right down and into the heart of the matter.

Master Blaster
January 10, 2006, 11:50 AM
Recently a co-worker was terminated from my place of employment due to threats against fellow co-workers. He’s a very intimidating guy, having a major attitude. He made many threats and many people are afraid. The company has also hired security guards (unarmed) since his termination.

He recently became interested in guns and people know that I enjoy shooting on the weekends he came to me for advise and I guided him in regards to all aspects of obtaining a handgun in California Legally. He did purchase a couple of Glocks.

I was asked by a Manager who I also consider a friend to put this information in writing & I did so for the company’s records

First off Never trust your employer, the manager is not your friend, especially if he is asking you to put in writing that you helped this guy get a gun. They want to make you liable if he comes in and starts shooting. Do you have personal liability insurance??? If not get a couple million today from your homeowners/ renters carrier. If he starts shooting and they have that paper you wrote out you will be liable to the victims. That is your employers plan. All they need to say is that he made threats to get a restaining order, they dont need your statement about helping him get a gun unless they are looking to make you liable, to save their own hide from a lawsuit.

Second off get that paper back from them. If they refuse call a lawyer and advise it was written under duress and you felt that your job was threatened if you didnt comply, the statement you wrote was coerced.:(

Third start looking for another job now, you dont want to be there if he comes in shooting. AND obviously the employer is not concerned about any ones safety just their own liability. The unarmed security is evidence of that.

Waitone
January 10, 2006, 12:26 PM
Anyone else here see a stick and a hornets nest? If he didn't really have any plans to "Go Postal" before this I can bet you he will afterward. Pray tell how said employee will "go postal" when the benevolent state of Cali just confiscated the future perp's weapons. The astute THR'er knows instinctively that there are no off the books guns in Cali. They also know badguys don't have access to guns. So please explain to the esteemed forum just how it is a disgruntled (ex)employee could possibly "go postal". Why, even the company is evidently not concerned since it opted to protect the premises with eye candy.

Please, let us not be extremist in our cynicism. :D

HankB
January 10, 2006, 12:52 PM
I have often wondered what the point of unarmed security is? Same as a canary in a coal mine. :rolleyes:

Oldtimer
January 10, 2006, 01:05 PM
First of all, welcome to THR! For the most part, the members are all friendly and very informative.

Secondly, your situation is quite similar to what one of my nephews was involved in. He works for the USPS and is a supervisor. One of the employees had made numerous threats, and my nephew was directly responsible for having gotten that employee terminated. After the termination process had been done, that EX-employee made further verbal threats.....and he was supposedly a HUGE man, with a military background.

While restraining orders can't stop a violent act, they CAN be used as a "tool". If the person listed violates the rules of the restraining order, the loal police CAN arrest him for that violation. If he is gone by the time the police arrive, a CRIME report of the restraining order violation NEEDS to be completed.

Yes, mere "criminal trespass" can be prosecuted, but most restraining orders go beyond the "trespass" law....perhaps as far as 1,000 feet past the physical location of the premises. IF that person is seen within the boundaries set forth in the restraining order, it IS a violation....and a CRIME report should be taken. While that violation may be deemed as a mere infraction or misdemeanor, a massive accumulation of those reports will be reflected in court....and the more there are, the more severe the punishment.

You are NOT responsible for having merely discussed firearms with that former employee. I don't know why your employer is making that some sort of "issue". Of course, there seems to be a "blame game" trend of late, and your having explained that to your boss sort of puts you in the position of being a "patsy"....but so what?

If, from what you posted is correct, that former employee has done nothing "criminal" up to this point. What he has said MIGHT have been construed as "terrorist threats", but you didn't detail anything of that nature. So far, it has been "idle" threats, and the chances are that he will NOT carry out any of them

Johnnybgood
January 10, 2006, 01:26 PM
I Think I would be tempted to get one of many mini 9's that are concealable and strap it on where it isn't seen (leg?). If this guy does show up, then I have an ability to defend myself. Against the law? Yeah. But I would still be alive to defend myself in court. I would also put the paperwork into motion for concealed carry. It may be a crapshoot but it shows you tried to do things legally. Just my 2 cents.

rick_reno
January 10, 2006, 01:34 PM
It doesn't read like your signing this thing is required for them to get a restraining order. If you agree to sign it, will the company offer you any personal protection? I was in a similar situation in the last place I worked (I wasn't asked to sign any documents), but I was offered protection. I wouldn't sign it - all it'll do is put a big target on your back. Under certain types of restraining orders, the person identified in the order cannot possess, have, buy or try to buy firearms. This could push someone on the edge over pretty fast.

CAPTAIN MIKE
January 10, 2006, 01:38 PM
Okay, Let's review:

# 1 - You KNOW this guy made Threats at work.
# 2 - You BELIEVE he is Unstable.
# 3 - You PROVIDED training and guidance for him about Firearms, thus making yourself a likely Co-Defendant in any Wrongful Death action against him.

What in the HECK were you thinking???

Shipwreck
January 10, 2006, 02:00 PM
Okay, Let's review:

# 1 - You KNOW this guy made Threats at work.
# 2 - You BELIEVE he is Unstable.
# 3 - You PROVIDED training and guidance for him about Firearms, thus making yourself a likely Co-Defendant in any Wrongful Death action against him.

What in the HECK were you thinking???

I guess U completely missed the part where he said he did this BEFORE he knew the guy was a problem.

WayneConrad
January 10, 2006, 02:01 PM
What in the HECK were you thinking???

CaptainMike, You probably missed this post:



When I started to communicate with my co-worker he seemed to be a person of good character. I was not aware of his unstableness until it was too late.

...

Preacherman, I didnít teach him to shoot. He was in the Army; US Govt trained him to shoot about 10 years ago or so.

WT
January 10, 2006, 02:18 PM
I would not sign that document. Doing so might place you in the X-ring when the former employee learns of it, as he assuredly will. Are you prepared to handle his intrusion into your workplace if your employer fails to do so? What if you meet him on the street?


Secondly, I would not accept blame for the actions of another. Some may try to lay a guilt trip on you. If this guy wacks out, it is not your fault. The company and its legal counsel can get a restraining order without your name on some document. The HR weenies have experience handling incidents such as this.


Take appropriate actions to protect yourself. When it comes right down to it, YOU are responsible for your safety - not your employer.

SJG26
January 10, 2006, 02:30 PM
So whats to prevent hime from waiting out in the lot---or follow individuals around, etc, etc...............do the individuals that were threatened EACH have an R.O. (plus a CCW) or is this corporate doing a CYA??

Baba Louie
January 10, 2006, 02:33 PM
Company is going CYA, so you should probably do the same... somehow. Be it legally (your own papertrail explaining who, what, when, why, etc) and, (altho' I never condone breaking the law,) tactically, by having something "Handy", just in case, as others here have expressed.

I, personally, would not sign anything that could be used against me, either in a court of law or employment-wise. Probably worth buying your attorney a good lunch and discussion, paying (of course) for sage advice.

This is one of those potential "Rock and Hard Place" scenarios that will, in most likelihood, be much ado about nothing... but like a good Boy Scout, it never hurts to be prepared... does it?

What's the title of that book, Dial 911 and Die?

Here's to hoping that a blowhard venting will remain simply words, in lieu of action worthy of the morning News.

Smurfslayer
January 10, 2006, 05:09 PM
I am of the opinion that signing that paper will ultimately lead to your dismissal from your current job. I also believe that management is trying to indemnify themselves personally and pin the responsibility elsewhere by identifying you as a lynchpin in his potentially losing his marbles and doing something bad. I would believe given just what you have said here that they could easily have a police investigation done to start the paperwork with just what they have. The police will investigate coworkers as part their responsibilities and they will no doubt discover your acquaintence with this person. A lawyer should be obtained for their guidance in this.

This act wreaks of "human resources" involvement, which ultimately will not end up well for you. Once you "rise up on the radar" in this event, your employer will keep in mind your involvement. Merely the mention of a name in one of these (what often end up as) H.R. witch hunts is enough for them to consider you "more trouble" than it is worth to keep you. Even as a victim in the event, if you make too much noise for their comfort, they will conveniently find a way for you to seek other employment. It may not be obvious, or immediate, but given the gravity of the situation, it could be. Your boss could be instructed to "reevaluate" your performance review with some "reminders". This hypothetical "lackluster review" would then be compared to the "company model", and deemed insufficient. You would then be "strongly considered" in the next round of layoffs.

Heck, your statements already are sufficient legal grounds for the company to end your working relationship. More than one court has upheld a company's ability to regulate outside the office conduct if it negatively, or COULD negatively impact the company's reputation.

I'm not certain what the best way to extricate yourself from this mess is, but signing that paper I'm certain is NOT it.

+1 on looking for new employment. In the interim, work from home if you can, avoid contact with the former coworker and exercise your right to remain silent on this, especially to coworkers.

I am going to vehemently disagree with Preacherman in this regard, albeit (hopefully) in polite discourse. Your employer already has all the evidence it needs against the former coworker, you are only obliged and "honor bound" to safeguard yourself, and your family. Your moral compass may perhaps require you to consider strongly the support of your good friends but remember that your first duty must be to your family and yourself.

spacemanspiff
January 10, 2006, 05:18 PM
I was asked by a Manager who I also consider a friend to put this information in writing & I did so for the companyís records. The Company is now in the process of obtaining a Restraining order and asked of me to sign my statement for our companyís attorneys. I declined today & advised then Iíll think about it over night. The paperwork is just confirming that's he's a gun owner.
do not sign! you do NOT need to confirm if he owns guns. it wont make the RO any more valid or useful. let the courts do their own battle with him and his guns.

in the meantime, take a few sick days. encourage others to do such. until your employer either allows you to carry what you need to defend yourself or employs enough well trained armed guards to repel the lunatics attack.

Wayne D
January 10, 2006, 05:45 PM
First of all, you didn’t “help” him buy guns! You answered questions that he asked you about how to legally acquire a firearm – right? You didn’t accompany him to the gun shop, did you? You didn’t give him any information that he wouldn’t have gotten from the Sheriff’s Dept. had he picked up the phone and called them, did you?

Take the paper to a lawyer and have him re-write it to cover your ass, making it clear that you only answered questions concerning the legal acquisition of firearms and that you in no way helped him buy them. Then sign it and tell your employer that this is your statement and it’s the only one you’re signing. If they’re being straight with you then they’ll accept it and that will be it. If they won’t take it, then you know they’re trying to make you the scapegoat.

1%er
January 10, 2006, 06:37 PM
I'm not a lawyer BUT i did stay at a Holiday Inn last nite>>>>>

1) restraining orders do not have to include firearms to be issued

thusly that means

2) they can get one with out your signed letter

and to protect yoursefl

apply for all the permits for your lovely state (even if denied...) then study the legal term MENS REA (hint latin: criminal intent) you might spend a couple of nights eating a green baloney sandwich, but the lawyers are free and your still alive, whats the sily saying here judged by 12 carried by 6 whatever DONT BE A TARGET for him nor your employer !!

P.S. get that resume ready

1%er
January 10, 2006, 06:37 PM
I'm not a lawyer BUT i did stay at a Holiday Inn last nite>>>>>

1) restraining orders do not have to include firearms to be issued

thusly that means

2) they can get one with out your signed letter

and to protect yoursefl

apply for all the permits for your lovely state (even if denied...) then study the legal term MENS REA (hint latin: criminal intent) you might spend a couple of nights eating a green baloney sandwich, but the lawyers are free and your still alive, whats the silly saying here judged by 12 carried by 6 whatever DONT BE A TARGET for him nor your employer !!

P.S. get that resume ready

Double Maduro
January 10, 2006, 07:26 PM
Ryder,
Lots of people get screwed over by their employer and fellow employees. Some own guns and some don't. So what?

They fired a guy for excercising his first ammendment rights and now they want to work their way up to his second ammendment rights?


First, I don't believe the first ammendment gives you the right to threaten or otherwise terrorize your fellow humans.

Secondly, I don't believe that a mentally unstable person, he may not be, he may only be a bully, should be allowed to own firearms.

This is not a 2nd ammendment issue. This is a public safety issue.

Now, the whole thing about the state taking his guns away is bs anyway. I can get one within minutes with no paperwork and no trail. So can he.

Onemoreround,

I, I am not a lawyer, believe that there is a thing called an exclusion order. It basically bars a person from enterring your property. If they do, the consequences are greater than a restraining order.

On another note. Most people who blow up when they are fired, or who exhibit anger at work, never cause any problems, I know, it only takes one. The people most likely to come back and do harm are the ones who go meekly away and accept their termination without showing any emotion.

The advice to see an attorney, sounds good.

Good luck. Let us know what happens.
DM

ARperson
January 10, 2006, 07:34 PM
I wouldn't sign it.

I can see no logical/legal reason why they would need your signature on a piece of paper to confirm whether or not the guy did or did not purchase a firearm. How would you really know anyway unless you were with him when he bought it?

odysseus
January 10, 2006, 07:46 PM
I agree, you need to be careful on this one when it comes to signing said documents. Speaking to an attorney might be of great benefit. Also when it comes to employers, they simply will do anything they can for their advantage for good reasons. Not yours - this is not to say they are not aligned, but I wouldn't expect them to reciprocate easily if things were the other way around.

engineer151515
January 10, 2006, 08:03 PM
+10000 Do not sign.

+ 20000 Consult a lawyer. An initial "first hour free" consultation would be very helpful at this point.

+1 on start looking for new employment (if only for the update/proactice).

You need a CCW permit, a keltec P3AT in a pocket holster, and maintain a low profile until either you leave for new employment or this blows over to your satisfaction.

The above is not to be confused with professional legal or self defense advise.


Good luck.

1 old 0311
January 10, 2006, 08:42 PM
Right now it sounds like he is pissed at your employer. If you sign ANYTHING against him he will be pissed at you. Your employer can afford security. Can you? Lastly YES he can get a copy of the report. A neighbor of mine was running a massage parlor in her house. I filed a complaint. She got a copy from the police. Cover your ass.

Kevin

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