First Self Defense class kicked my butt!!!


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Rockrivr1
January 10, 2006, 12:07 PM
After looking around for a place that had a good Self Defense class, I found a place local that teaches a combination of Kendo Karate, Thai Kickboxing and the Krav Maga.

I chose this place because you get two free one on one orientation classes before you start attending classes with the rest of the group. When I get to the place the guy goes over what a normal class is like. It's one hour long. The first 10 minutes are dedicated to stretching, the next 20 minutes is for callestenic (sp?) (Crunches, Push-ups, Sit Ups etc) and the remaining half hour is for self defense training.

When I heard that I was thinking "only a half hour?" That was until I was actually do it. Now I always thought I was in pretty decent shape. I do the indoor bike and I do weight training at least two times a week. I thought that until I was completely winded and my arms and legs were burning long before the half hour was up. HOLY CRAP, that is one tough workout. First class I was learning Kicks, Jabs, Cross Punches and the proper use of your forearm and elbow as a weapon. Mix that all together with a standing dummy and foot movement I was really working muscled I haven't used in years. I'm sore this morning, but I know that the second day after a work out is a lot worse. Hummmm, not looking forward to tomorrow morning. :uhoh:

To keep this firearms related, the place where they have the Self Defense class also has a class specifically designed for defense against an attacher who has a handgun. I chuckled when I saw the flyer as my first thought was that it must be a BS class. Hummmm, I may have to check it out just to see for myself if it is really BS or something that has some value. Part of the pricing for the Self Defense class is that I can attend any class offered by the school. We'll see.

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rchernandez
January 10, 2006, 12:34 PM
After looking around for a place that had a good Self Defense class, I found a place local that teaches a combination of Kendo Karate, Thai Kickboxing and the Krav Maga.


You must be a glutton for punishment! 1/2 warm up & 1/2 "practice" is just right for the program. For SD against assailant with handgun they should throw in a sprinkling of Aikido and a bit of Arnis (Philippine stick fighting).

Good luck on the program, let us know how it goes.

MedGrl
January 10, 2006, 12:37 PM
I acctualy do teach a self defense class at my college with the university police. There are two classes one is the basic class called PROTECT (Personal Response Options and Tacticaly Effective Counter Techniquess). THat is your basic hold breaks, take downs, and about ten punches kicks and blocks as well as teaching comanding presence and the use of your voice.

We then have a seccond levle that you have to complete the PROTECT training twice before you can take. It doesn't have a fancy accronym but it teaches more advanced hold breaks and take downs and also defense agains attackers who are armed with knives, guns, or other tretening items (one time the Sgt. I work with tried to throw me a curve bal during a demonstration and he pulled a baseball bat out of the equipment bag :evil: )

When a gun is used defensivly it is at a distance (idealy). An attacker who is armed with a gun is going to be in close proximity to you. and so even withought a gun of your own youcan dissarm and dissable the attacker with minimal danger to yourself. SOmeone attacking you while brandishing a firearm is looking to intimidate you into compliance and will rarely use it before getting close and first attempting the intimidation because gun fire draws attention that is unwanted by a BG

In short, A SD class that shows unarmed defense against an armed attacker isn't BS. IMHO:)

Azrael256
January 10, 2006, 12:43 PM
It's good to see somebody teaching a combination class. I see this mindset of "my style is the only way to fight and the rest are crap" from almost everyone who does any kind of training. It's the silliest thing I've ever heard. Somebody start teaching a class on rolling around on the ground kicking, scratching, biting, and gouguing and I'll take it twice. Throw in a couple restraint moves, and you'll have every cop on the planet wanting to sign up. We'll call it the "furious rolly-polly" style. Gonna apply for a TM on that name, so nobody steal it.

WillBrayJr
January 10, 2006, 12:46 PM
I had a blast when I was in the martial arts. I studied at the ATA Black Belt Academy (Taekwondo) in Niles Michigan and at Gillis' Karate School Headquaters (Kyokushin) in Mishawaka Indiana. There was no playing around at the Gillis Dojo, You specifically taught you how to fight. You started full-contact sparring at white belt with hardly any safety equipment.

MedGrl
January 10, 2006, 12:54 PM
We'll call it the "furious rolly-polly" style. Gonna apply for a TM on that name, so nobody steal it.


I'm game...Love the title too. Some people might even think it is some reclusive form of 5 animal kung fu:p

phoglund
January 10, 2006, 02:28 PM
Martial Arts do in my opinion have great benefit for those wishing to be able to protect themselves. If you are learning to protect yourself with a firearm you are also learning a Martial Art. You may also have to be able to protect yourself without a firearm because a firearm may not be avialable, appropriate, or be brought into play quickly enough. It's best to learn techniques for protecting yourself while standing and at a distance (i.e. TaeKwonDo or Kickboxing), standing but in close contact (i.e. Hapkido, Judo), and while on the ground (Brazilian Jui Jitsu). Most people don't have the time to become proficient in all these areas. Therefore it's reasonable to become proficient in one of those areas and capable enough in the other areas to transition the fight to your area of strength if it strays. IMHO any good school of Martial Arts should have as part of it's curriculum Martial "Self Defense" as opposed to Martial "Art". Regular attendance at a Martial Art school also maintains the conditioning for the fight. All other things being equal in a fight, it's the fighter in the best condition that's going to win. Keeping the discussion gun related is easy as I believe the ability to protect oneself with a firearm to be integral to the well rounded Martial Art's practitioner's skills in Martial "Self Defense".

I've been taught the Krav Maga techniques for defense against an individual with a handgun. They would be very effective I believe if that individual was foolish enough to get within contact range. If they stay alert and at a distance you are toast.

P.S. Rockrivr1: I hit 5 - 6 classes a week at the Martial Arts school I have attended for four years and still go home hurting after class sometimes. Often just because of the strenuous nature of the workout not because of any blow I took. Good luck with your new adventure.

boofus
January 10, 2006, 02:55 PM
Don't worry, the soreness will go away. If it's a worthy martial arts class they will bounce it out of you with all the impacts from throws. :D

lostone1413
January 10, 2006, 03:14 PM
Was in the arts myself for quite a few years. Now age and time has got me out of them. I remember when my boy was getting in the arts. I use to tell him to always remember. Billy the Kid can always beat a Bruce Lee

Carl
January 10, 2006, 03:33 PM
When I was in martial arts class, we'd also teach gun and knife defenses to the higher ranking members. Of course we'd always push the idea to never attempt to use the gun defenses if some guy just wants your wallet, because it's not worth risking your life.

hso
January 10, 2006, 03:48 PM
I chuckled when I saw the flyer as my first thought was that it must be a BS class.

Not always.

Hummmm, I may have to check it out just to see for myself if it is really BS or something that has some value.

That's the only way to find out.

Rockrivr1
January 11, 2006, 10:04 AM
I was right. I'm MUCH more sore this morning. Not to mention the second class is tonight. The first half hour of stretching and calestenics should be oh so much fun. :rolleyes: Eh, it will be worth it though I'm sure.

MedGrl
January 11, 2006, 11:52 AM
I was right. I'm MUCH more sore this morning. Not to mention the second class is tonight. The first half hour of stretching and calestenics should be oh so much fun. :rolleyes: Eh, it will be worth it though I'm sure.


acctualy...speaking from experience the stretching and calestenics will feel good. It will loosten up the muscles you have been babying becausse they are so sore now and get you moving...of ourse when you wake up tomorrow you will be just as sore. If I may suggest...try a nice long hot shower/bath (whichever you prefer) and do some mild stretches before you go to bed and again do some mild stretches in the morning when you wake up. It will hurt in the morning when you try to stretch but do it anyways...I promise it will help:) Best of luck in your class tonight and let us know what you decide about the "defense against armed attackers" class

dfaugh
January 11, 2006, 11:56 AM
Yup, when I took my first class, I was 22 and I had worked all summer doing physical labor and was in really good shape...After that first class I thought I was gonna DIE...After a coupla months I found out what REALLY being in shape is... But its worth every bit of pain is you get good training...

As far as taking a weapon/gun away from an attacker....well, after what I learned, if you are too close to me you WILL loose the weapon, and maybe a few body parts...I studied Karate, Kung-Fu, Aikido, and Bando, and some of the instructors could probably dissarm someone standing several feet away...My first Sensei (Karate)was so fast it was incredible..Kinda like in the movies!

phoglund
January 11, 2006, 01:50 PM
FWIW: Listen to MedGrl

Baba Louie
January 11, 2006, 02:05 PM
Ibuprofun and Ben-Gay will be your constant companions. ;)
My female roommate who teaches Aikido and practices Systema 5X a week, still comes home with bruises, aching leg, neck and back muscles requiring serious and deep massage (w/ the aforementioned Ben-Gay) at least twice a week. She's been at it going on 11 years.

The old axiom "No Pain, No Gain" is true in this instance.

As you get older at least you'll have a good reason for being achy, stiff and sore in the mornings. :D

Add a daily 30 min. run/jog/walk to your regimen. It does help loosen your muscles and is good for the cardio.

gripper
January 11, 2006, 07:45 PM
I liove in Ma....where is this school located?? I like the mix of disciplines you've mentioned.I never studied Chinese styles, but I did have an acqauntance with Muay Thai ( and some olde school boxing) . Imay try to find a school near my residence or job, and I was wondering...

UWstudent
January 11, 2006, 08:12 PM
i do brazilian jiujitsu. i'm a 4th strip blue belt. been in it for 4 years. BJJ is the BEST self defense/offense art in the world. why do you think all the UFC fighters use it?

anyway, i did a coule of MMA fights (only during summer when i get back in shape) almost everyone i fought uses BJJ techniques.. for the people that don't use BJJ.. i'll tap them out in seconds. doesn't matter how good of a wrestler you are. (unless they're into muay thai.. those guys are tough)

fluffygrrl
January 11, 2006, 09:11 PM
also good for sore muscles is a couple freshly squeezed lemons, or virtually any form of vitamin c. helps that lactic acid drain.

Danus ex
January 12, 2006, 01:16 AM
If you're sort of 'evaluating' this class, look for this major component: critical evaluation.

Are the instructors and students building a critical dialog centered around what's happening? Or, are they just doing what the instructor says? The thought is ultimately what will help you most, and help generate greater awareness.

You can learn movements anywhere, and the specific art doesn't make the particular training good or bad. For example, of the arts mentioned in this thread, I've found Krav Maga and BJJ particularly underwhelming in the hands of the people I've encountered, but that doesn't make those arts craptastic or anything. Heck, tomorrow, I might train with someone who does Krav Maga who's really got it, you never know. It's all mental.

taliv
January 12, 2006, 01:35 AM
+1 danus

however, it's not unreasonable imho for students to be expected to shut up and do what the instructor says until the reach a certain level of competency.

few things in MA training are more annoying than n00bs who don't even know the basic stances arguing with the instructor because of something they saw in a movie or something. it is inevitable that n00bs think they know more than they do. this (and whether or not it is a uniquely American phenomenon) is a frequent topic of discussion on MA forums

Danus ex
January 12, 2006, 03:28 AM
+1 danus

however, it's not unreasonable imho for students to be expected to shut up and do what the instructor says until the reach a certain level of competency.

few things in MA training are more annoying than n00bs who don't even know the basic stances arguing with the instructor because of something they saw in a movie or something. it is inevitable that n00bs think they know more than they do. this (and whether or not it is a uniquely American phenomenon) is a frequent topic of discussion on MA forums

Oooh yep, let's build on that. This will happen, so watch how the instructors handle it. If they remain patient and try to justify learning certain things first, that's good. If they sink to that person's level and start fighting and nit-picking with them...that's bad--they're forsaking the idea of even being there in the first place.

Rockrivr1
January 12, 2006, 11:17 AM
Hi Gripper, The class is in Marlborough at the World Class Karate school. Their web site is Worldclasskarate.com. I took my second one on one class last night and we worked on how to get out of chock holds and stike zones on the body. Very interesting stuff. Not to mention I haven't been that winded since boot camp.


Danus Ex, actually the instructor seems pretty cool. He's very hands on in showing how things should be done. I was the unlucky fellow who got to put him into a chock hold so he could show everyone some basic moves to get out of it. I'm glad he had good control when he made a shot to my groin!!!! He also wants us to ask questions, which I find good as well. I have real problems with someone who just says to do something but doesn't want to answer some basic questions.

UWstudent
January 12, 2006, 06:14 PM
he wouldn't want me to put a choke hold on him...


a good blood choke (not an air choke...that gives them too much time.. focus the blade of the forearm and the bicepts on the two arteries on ur neck) = 2-3 seconds before you pass out

there is no way into getting around it. legs wrap around stomach (brings victim down), face pointed down and using it as leverage into getting more pressure onto the neck. also, as your arms squeeze into them, your body is kept tight to theirs so there is no area for the victim to move around and get out.

i've been choking people for 4 years at BJJ practice. there is honestly no way to get out of it when a good BJJ artist locks a good blood choke on you. you're done. finished. history.

Rockrivr1
January 12, 2006, 06:26 PM
"i've been choking people for 4 years at BJJ practice. there is honestly no way to get out of it when a good BJJ artist locks a good blood choke on you. you're done. finished. history."


Well, lets hope I never get chocked by a good BJJ artist! :scrutiny:

middy
January 12, 2006, 06:44 PM
there is honestly no way to get out of it when a good BJJ artist locks a good blood choke on you. you're done. finished. history.
So... how well do those chokes work when the chokee's two buddies are standing there kicking you in the kidneys? :scrutiny:

BJJ is great for one-on-one. Self-defense has little to do with one-on-one...

taliv
January 12, 2006, 07:28 PM
Oooh yep, let's build on that. This will happen, so watch how the instructors handle it. If they remain patient and try to justify learning certain things first, that's good. If they sink to that person's level and start fighting and nit-picking with them...that's bad--they're forsaking the idea of even being there in the first place.

i agree completely


another thing to watch for is when people start reading their resume to you unsolicited, or telling you that their techniques are unbeatable, or that they (or their art) are the only one who knows a specific technique.

phoglund
January 12, 2006, 08:03 PM
So... how well do those chokes work when the chokee's two buddies are standing there kicking you in the kidneys? :scrutiny:

BJJ is great for one-on-one. Self-defense has little to do with one-on-one...

There is a lot of truth to this. BJJ is great one on one which does indeed happen. Just last weekend I used the choke mentioned earlier to control a situation. It works quite well, but it only worked for me because nobody else in the room wanted the guy on his feet either. The thing I like about that choke is it's not harmful to the individual choked (as long as you quit when they go unconcious) and it's nearly foolproof once you gain the position.

As I mentioned in an earlier post, it's important to have at least a passing skill in many Martial Arts to be able to effectively defend oneself in all defensible situations.

strambo
January 13, 2006, 04:15 AM
BJJ is the BEST self defense/offense art in the world. why do you think all the UFC fighters use it? Because it works well it in a ring, one on one, against a skilled opponent, within a set of rules when said event goes to the ground.

It is very dangerous to adapt what folks do in any sport and assume it would be "the best" for a different situation. Competitors do whatever works best for their competition because that gets them paid.

Interestingly, BJJ dominated early on in UFC because most people didn't know how to defend against it. Soon everybody was training it and it no longer dominated as a stand alone art. Now, you have to have a good standing game (boxing/muay thai) clinch game, takedowns and defenses as well as ground game where BJJ works quite well. A new term was coined to cover this by calling it 'Mixed Martial Arts". I also find it interesting that early on (and still?) the guard position was considered a position of advantage though not as good as the mount. I watched a lot of recent PRIDE and UFC fights and the guy in the guard is certainly not in an advantageous position. Many KO's and beat downs have been administered from within someone's guard.

I'm not knocking BJJ, you just have to compare apples to apples. The best form of defense for the street is something that takes into account the possibility of multiple armed opponents, short time frames and rapidly changing situations. Awareness/avoidance, positive mindset, tools (a firearm is best) and H to H skills developed for the realities of a hostile situation, as opposed to a sport.

I try to look at fighting systems and skills as objectively as possible...after all the bad guys don't care what I think is the ultimate fighting style. I will either be breathing afterward or not.

Turtle Club
January 13, 2006, 04:22 AM
I reached yellow belt in highschool in Karate before quiting to concentrate on football.

What would be some good mixed martial arts to practice if I wanted to enter my local "Mr. Bar Brawler" Contest. Its sort of like "UFC"/"King Of The Cage"/"Toughman". Its our local boxing promotors version. Basicly it is a caged wrestling ring, is has a few strick rules however far less than UFC or toughman.

I want to just be a self defence / mixed martial arts bad A55.

Danus ex
January 13, 2006, 05:24 AM
Danus Ex, actually the instructor seems pretty cool. He's very hands on in showing how things should be done. I was the unlucky fellow who got to put him into a chock hold so he could show everyone some basic moves to get out of it. I'm glad he had good control when he made a shot to my groin!!!! He also wants us to ask questions, which I find good as well. I have real problems with someone who just says to do something but doesn't want to answer some basic questions.

That's fantastic. I'm glad you're enjoying it, keep it up and keep your brain going--and remember, fun facilitates learning!

middy
January 13, 2006, 12:01 PM
What would be some good mixed martial arts to practice if I wanted to enter my local "Mr. Bar Brawler" Contest.
Look at what most of the UFC champions trained in. Most of them were remarkable wrestlers ealry in life, and some kind of ground game is vital or you are toast once you're clinched. One-on-one, a wrestler will dominate a striker almost every time. The striker will get in a few good punches and then be pinned to the mat and pummelled or choked into submission. Some training in striking styles is necessary also, mostly to learn how to block, take a punch, and effectively use fists, elbows, and knees once you have your opponent pinned.

Almost any combination will be effective if you train hard enough, but I think Greco-Roman wrestling and kickboxing are a particularly potent combination. You should concentrate just as much on conditioning as on technique; your average Joe is not going to last a round in a boxing ring; the first good body blow will knock his wind out and he won't get it back.

Keep in mind that this is for one-on-one unarmed combat. For practical self-defense I would recommend something like Aikido, Jiu Jitsu, Goju Ryu Karate (soft or soft-hard styles that will unbalance attackers and keep you on your feet ready to run).

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