Role of knife with gun


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billcameron
January 2, 2003, 06:17 PM
Another thread going on about what knife people carry with gun. I am interested in what you view the role of the knife when it is carried with a gun. Also how/where do you carry knife to fullfill the role you have assigned to the knife. For instance if you see the knife as a retention device you probably want to be able to reach it with off hand to cut someone trying to get your gun. If you see knife as an alternative to gun in close quarters fight that is another role. Maybe you see knife as something better to use than gun if mugged from behind. So how and where do you carry your knife(s) and why do you carry them in particular manner.

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El Tejon
January 2, 2003, 06:24 PM
Mostly just to open packages from UPS.

As a weapon for retention (go to bug first) and fighting at rolling around range. Carry right hand pants pocket and left hand in waist line because I like access from either side (same reason carry bug).

Mike Irwin
January 2, 2003, 09:23 PM
I rarely carry a knife.

Blueduck
January 2, 2003, 10:08 PM
Common sense, gun, pepper,cell phone for self defense IMHO.

Somehow have managed to open all my mail, packages, and even eat apples without a "Tactical" folder so popular around the office.;)

a9mmfan
January 2, 2003, 10:12 PM
I guess I fall into the catagory of a "Knife Nut" with an interest in guns as well. Until the changes brought on by 9/11 I could carry my knife pretty much anywhere in the world. I always carry some type of folding lockblade, but am very seldom out of reach of a more substantial blade. That said, my CHL piece compliments my knife very well. I did have a clever experience in Belgium getting on a train. They kept refereing to me as "The American with the WEAPON" (pronounced weeeepon). They had me move it from my pants pocket to my carry on luggage, and let me proceed.:confused:

Marko Kloos
January 2, 2003, 11:07 PM
I am interested in what you view the role of the knife when it is carried with a gun.

Even when loaded with .38 Special +P, my S&W M65 still has a tendency to scare the dogs and upset the neighbors when I try to open packages with it. The knife is the better tool for some jobs. :)

PATH
January 2, 2003, 11:25 PM
My Swiss armey knife is good for opening packages and some other sundry chores. It does not fall into a self defense type category.

Okiecruffler
January 3, 2003, 05:34 AM
I carry my knife to clean my fingernails, pick my teeth, and sharpen if I'm doing any serious thinking.

sm
January 3, 2003, 05:45 AM
Viewed as another tool. Some places CCW not allowed, Knife becomes primary.With CCW , retention, position change with need.

riverdog
January 3, 2003, 11:23 AM
I can carry a knife just about anywhere I care to go. I don't go near airports these days so good knife is usually with me. A pistol is purely a PD tool when it's not on the range punching paper. A knife OTOH can be used for everything from opening letters and packages to CQB. These days my EDC is a Benchmade 806D2 AFCK, a very well designed knife with a great edge.

okeydoke
January 3, 2003, 11:25 AM
the knife as a retention item, especially a folder. You know how unlikely it is for you to be able to access and open and still use a folder, while being actually assaulted? Do you know how fast you can lose an eye? .010 of one second, that's how fast. Getting a grasp on a folder, opening it, and applying it in any sort of a useful manner will take at least 10x as long. You can stab and slash at a man for a full minute with a short blade, and have no immediate effect, if you don't get his eye, his carotid, or his wrist-hand. Even those cuts can be without-effect for many seconds, which means they are unlikely to be of more than psychological effect.

I suggest that you quit kidding yourself about how "effective" a folding knife is as a weapon, and get a lot more hand to hand training, and carry a walking-stick-cane as well. Punks can see that, and just avoid you in the first place. If approached, I suggest that you "casually" raise the cane and begin scratching the back of your neck with it. That looks innocuous to everyone else, but puts the cane where you can strike with it in 1/5th of a second, and reach 5 ft without taking a step, and 8 ft if you lunge.

Lunging slows your move to 1/3rd second or so, but many men will be surprised by how far you can reach with such a move. If the attacker has a weapon in an extended arm, his chest can be 10 ft from yours, and you can still disarm him, far faster than anyone can draw a gun from a concealed belt rig and get a chest hit, espeically if the coat is fastened against bad weather, wind, etc. Furthermore, the cane can be carried almost anywhere, and a punk may be a lot less certain that you wont whack him one, as vs that you won't shoot him. Also, of course, the cane is quiet, and you needn't worry about the use of lethal-force, nor about innocent people behind the attacker.

a9mmfan
January 3, 2003, 11:54 AM
okeydoke: Your post prompted me to post a clarification on mine. I do not consider my knife a weapon. It's a standard Puma lockblade not a "Tactical". In my opinion it is a utility device. The only time I see it being used is to convince someone to let go of me, but as you said, advanced training could handle that as well.

MacPelto
January 3, 2003, 12:02 PM
The knife, in it's early form, is THE tool that raised man above his surroundings. It isn't just a tool for opening the mail (which it does), but a symbol of how humans can be more than just animals. It's a sign of being a 'grown-up', of being able to take care of yourself. As such, I never go without one (don't know what I'd do if I had to fly, mostly I try not to), and no self respecting person should, either.

Chris Rhines
January 3, 2003, 01:09 PM
I like knives, but I hate, hate, HATE knife fighting. For the same reason I hate hospitals, stitches, scaring, and permanent crippling injury.

I usually carry three knives, one of them a Leatherman tool which sees more use than all the others put together. It opens packages, snips threads, trims my fingernails, strips wire, turns screws, et cetera. That's what I use a knife for.

I recently started wearing a little CRKT fixed-blade neck knife, and I don't know how I managed to live without it. Much easier to access with either hand, faster to deploy (when such speed is required) and stronger to boot. Concealment is no problem. I'm thinking about buying another for my pocket and putting my beloved old Spyderco into semi-retirement.

- Chris

P.S. Why does okeydoke seem so... familiar? :D

JohnKSa
January 3, 2003, 09:59 PM
Why does okeydoke seem so... familiar?
I was just about to make a similar comment. Shall we start a pool on how many posts he reaches before he starts namecalling and gets "Volked"?

I carry a large folder that I can access pretty quickly. I would use it in a situation when I don't have a gun or for when I've lost my gun. Not to get my gun back, but to trim up the fellow who took it so that he suits me better. I don't figure I would have a good chance of surviving in a situation like that, but I like the idea of resisting better than running away from someone who's shooting at me with my own pistol.

Good shooting,

John

WonderNine
January 3, 2003, 10:20 PM
The only time I see it being used is to convince someone to let go of me, but as you said, advanced training could handle that as well.

I agree as it's much preferable to have to flash a knife than a gun, especially in a public place. But knives have so many other uses.

Spark
January 3, 2003, 10:41 PM
Sorry Okeydoke, that statement was ridiculous. A knife is much smaller and much more damaging than a cane - not to mention easier to carry. There's 7 places on the human body where a little 1" incision will kill a man. It takes a lot to bludgeon someone to death - or unconcious.

Hitting with a cane is considered hitting with a bludgeon or bat, especially if you don't have a medical "need" to use on. In other words, it's lethal force in most states. Check out the laws.

Someone comes at me with a cane, I'm shooting them. Good luck concealing it as you approach as well. I'm much more worried about a suprised concealed knife attack than any cane.

Carrying a cane with you will only slow down presentation for your CCW when you need to use it. A good folding knife will not. If a person steps inside your swing, there goes your cane advantage. Chances are, someone comes near you with a knife, they are getting cut.

I carry an Emerson Commander daily. It's design opens it when it's drawn from the pocket - and I can do from pocket to strike in less than a second. Each second that someone's trying to rip my firearm from it's holster, is another second I'm slashing their arms, face, throat, etc.

I'd suggest you get some good hand to hand training and real knife training. And leave the canes to the senior citizens.

Kevin

riverdog
January 3, 2003, 11:53 PM
When did the thread turn into a knife fighting thread? I don't carry an ACFK because I want to go hand to hand with another guy with a knife. I carry a good solid folder as a utility knife that can cut a lot of things real well. I always have a knife. It goes back to my Naval Aviation days when carrying survival equipment was a normal thing to do. Unfortunately, the typical aviation survival knife OTOH was a fixed blade chunk of 1095 steel that didn't carry well outside a survival vest.

A knife is a basic tool. I prefer to carry a knife that can do more than just open letters. I prefer a knife that's tough, has good steel that stays sharp and carries easily. The BenchMade 806D2 is just that. Although it's large for a folder, it carries easily, has great steel and a very good overall design.

I've never been in a knife fight and would go out of my way to avoid one.

faustulus
January 4, 2003, 12:52 AM
The ever popular "let go of my gun" drill

okeydoke
January 4, 2003, 01:07 AM
cane, or the knife, or stopping ability, or fighting, for that matter. I'd have no trouble justifying strikes at a man's limbs with a cane. Noone said anything about attacking anyone with a cane., either. Your places to kill a man with a 1" deep cut are not likely to be cut during an assault, and the knife use CERTAINLY is lethal force. The cane doesn't slow your gun presentation down in the slightest if it's not in the hand that you clear your outer garment with, but then that would require knowing how to use either hand at something besides scratching your butt, wouldn't it?

You don't have to kill a man in order to stop him. If I strike your weapon arm with a proper cane-stick, you wont HAVE that weapon any more. If I strike your leg, you won't be standing on that leg anymore, either. A proper stick-cane is made of hollow metal, and has 3 sides., you see. :-) It takes MANY seconds, even for MULTIPLE cuts or stab wounds to render a man unable to function, in nearly all cases. At knife cut distances, you are not going to HAVE that time. What you are talking-about, obviously, is using a knife on an unarmed man, and that will get you sent to prison.

I am still one of the top pistoleros in the world, and the hand to hand instruction I got (300+ hours of 1-4 guys in class, from a 5th dan TKD, 1st Dan Judo man, in Korea) is quite adequate, thank you very much. For instance, I can react, draw from a concealed belt rig, and hit 2 separate 10" disks, at 10 ft, 5 ft between them, any time you care to see it, from hands at shoulder height, in 1.2 seconds. That aint too shabby, considering it's done with a lw commander .45 and full charge loads, from under a shirttail.

Mike Irwin
January 4, 2003, 02:29 AM
"I am still one of the top pistoleros in the world, and the hand to hand instruction I got (300+ hours of 1-4 guys in class, from a 5th dan TKD, 1st Dan Judo man, in Korea) is quite adequate, thank you very much. For instance, I can react, draw from a concealed belt rig, and hit 2 separate 10" disks, at 10 ft, 5 ft between them, any time you care to see it, from hands at shoulder height, in 1.2 seconds. That aint too shabby, considering it's done with a lw commander .45 and full charge loads, from under a shirttail."

And I can climb walls with my felt ninja boots and have a tactical golfcart that goes 8 mph...

And did you know you can lose an eye in .010 seconds?

:rolleyes:

Mike Irwin
January 4, 2003, 02:33 AM
"I am still one of the top pistoleros in the world, and the hand to hand instruction I got (300+ hours of 1-4 guys in class, from a 5th dan TKD, 1st Dan Judo man, in Korea) is quite adequate, thank you very much. For instance, I can react, draw from a concealed belt rig, and hit 2 separate 10" disks, at 10 ft, 5 ft between them, any time you care to see it, from hands at shoulder height, in 1.2 seconds. That aint too shabby, considering it's done with a lw commander .45 and full charge loads, from under a shirttail."

And I can climb walls with my felt ninja boots and have a tactical golfcart that goes 8 mph...

:rolleyes:

sixgun_symphony
January 4, 2003, 04:15 AM
http://www.a-human-right.com/RKBA/quacks_s.jpg

saki302
January 4, 2003, 06:57 AM
I know firsthand of an incident where a girl was attacked- she reacted with a 3" bladed knife (spyderco jess horn). One stab+slash exit to the stomach area ended the fight INSTANTLY. The guy had his hands on her throat, but not for long ;)

In another incident I know of (spoke to the guy it happened to also- he is a martial arts instructor/ex bounty hunter), the good guy got attacked by his perp- got a nice 5-6" cut on his forearm to show for it - and reacted with a sideways slash- aimed at the throat, but connected with the shoulder, severing the muscle completely. This also ended the fight instantly- they picked the bad guy up later on at a local hospital. This incident also made him never carry a folder again- only fixed blades were3 deemed quick enough.

I don't believe for a minute a knife isn't an effective weapon!

-Dave

Smoke
January 4, 2003, 08:31 AM
Okeydoke:

It sounds like maybe you have trained with a cane. I don't.

I have trained with a knife for CQB. Its a matter of choice, training, and comfort. I personally can't see the role of a cane/walking stick for me in my PD system.

I stick with gun/knife/maglight/kubotan.

Thank you.

Soap
January 4, 2003, 08:39 AM
I am still one of the top pistoleros in the world, and the hand to hand instruction I got (300+ hours of 1-4 guys in class, from a 5th dan TKD, 1st Dan Judo man, in Korea) is quite adequate, thank you very much. For instance, I can react, draw from a concealed belt rig, and hit 2 separate 10" disks, at 10 ft, 5 ft between them, any time you care to see it, from hands at shoulder height, in 1.2 seconds. That aint too shabby, considering it's done with a lw commander .45 and full charge loads, from under a shirttail.

I care to see it. Find a buddy with a digital camera (or use your own) and record an .mpeg of it. Be sure to include shots of the readout on the shot timer. Then just ask someone here on the High Road to host the file for you. When should we expect this video?

Gray_Fallen
January 4, 2003, 01:03 PM
I dont carry a pistol, not 21 yet. I do carry on my families 2000 acres of property in the middle of now-where, but not off it. On the ranch, weapons retention is the last thing I worry about. So in situations like that, my knife is a utility tool.

But lets say for the sake of argument I was carrying a defensive pistol regularly. I'd keep my EDC folder (EKI Commander) in my right front pocket, I'd put one of my lefty-folders in my left front pocket or tucked int he waist band, behind my hip, on the left side (probably an Endura with a Wave modification, or a lefty EKI P-Sark) and I'd put something like a Camillus CQB-2 IWB on my left side, a little forward, and angled forward for a lefty reverse grip draw, or righty cross draw.
For a "let go of my gun" situation, go for one of the lefty knives, and go for arm, throat, face & eyes, and anything else I could.
For a contact distance (I.E. no distance at all) encounter, I'd go for the knife to get them off me and away from me, so I could get back, draw, and respond with neccassary force if they were still coming at me.
For the most part though, a knife carried with a gun, would be a utility tool... but, I am not going to cut myself off from a posible weapon, by discounting its viability or neglecting to train for even an un-likely situation such as this.
I have a great deal of faith in the knife as a deadly weapon... I know just how fast someone without much training, can do damage to someone not expecting it, and even to someone expecting it.
I dont like defensive knife use, I dont like the idea of it... the cuts, blood, etc., but I also dont like the idea of dying... one I can get over, the other I cant. (and the term knife fighting implies knife on knife, which is really rare, so I didnt use it.)


Non-lethal force in the form of WW-II style combatives, and pocket carried impact weapons (I have almost no use at all for pepper spray) is always a step before lethal force, of course, but thats not what this is a discussion of.

And above that, trying to keep my young arse out of such troubles. :p

This post has been edited by TheBluesMan, 1/4/03, 10:49 p.m.

JShirley
January 5, 2003, 05:20 AM
I use knives to open things, mostly. In civie guise, with concealed carry, I would be unlikely to reach for both blade and shootin' iron simultaneously; after all, I want a two-handed grip whenever possible! If I'm carrying a shoulder arm and have a very close-range "encounter", I can use my carbine as an impact tool.

I have a good bit of training using the 3' stick, but I have the hardest time slipping one into my pocket, when I'm headed out to drive to the store. Puzzling...

HS/LD
January 11, 2003, 06:44 PM
Gun first.

Knife if things get really, really, messy.

I have a little swiss army knife to open packages and a 4"+ folder to open people.

HS/LD

VaughnT
January 11, 2003, 07:37 PM
I'll go out on a limb and agree with okeydoke. The staff is every bit as dangerous/deadly as a knife. It offers a greater reach and greater blunt trauma, quite capable of breaking bones, than a knife. They are also quite common in these parts with walkers/runners, though they are often nothing more than a 2'-3' length of broomstick. And my momma taught me from early on to steer clear of anyone with a switch in hand!!:D

But, let's not forget that a cane/staff is often impractical, making the folder the logical choice for defensive purposes.

As to the "best pistoleros" comment, I'll not call anyone a liar. Validation has been offered. The offer has been accepted. Where it goes from here will determine the truth.

saki302
January 12, 2003, 11:39 AM
Another thing to consider:

Here in CA, a baton, or club (even a bat in the car withoutball and glove) are highly illegal, where a folding knife is legal.
Otherwise, I'd be happy to carry a 26" collapsible ASP baton!

Bring the folder and some duct tape, and you can have yourself a mini Naginata ;)

-Dave

scotjute
January 15, 2003, 10:30 AM
I "carry" 5-6" bladed sheath knives and small pocket knife when
hunting. Main focus of course is on my gun, the sheath knife is there in case I kill a deer (cut throat, initial bleeding) or need it for some other reason.
I carry a knife (5" blade sheath knife & small pocket knife)and walking stick when hiking in public parks because its allowed and I don't have concealed carry permit. Here it actually is emergency self-protection, as well as other uses.
Always carry a small pocket knife.
The role of the knife as a self-protection tool decreased greatly with the advent of cartridge ammunition.

Pheonix
January 22, 2003, 03:28 PM
So, in a defend your gun situation would you rather have a fixed blade knife or a a stun gun?

WonderNine
January 22, 2003, 10:50 PM
the knife.

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