[perpster]

I have S&W revolvers and Glock semi-auto handguns in .38/.357 and 9mm calibers, respectively [I don't touch S&W semi-autos and Glock doesn't make revolvers].

I'm thinking of getting a Marlin 1894C (Winchester Model 94 Trails End??) to complement my S&W .38's and .357, and a Kel-Tec Sub 2000 and/or other 9mm carbine to complement the Glock 9mm's.

Would be used for SHTF, suburban family/home defense, target and plinking.

Any thoughts on the pistol caliber carbine concept in general and these carbines in particular? One of my goals is to limit the different number of calibers of ammo to stock and to have ammo interoperability (to KISS). Thanks.

Perp

[VinnyT]

Get a HI-Point 9mm carbine. I used to have one. They're very accurate and one could be had for $150 +/-.

[MCgunner]

I originally bought my M92 Rossi in .357 magnum because most of my reloading was for the caliber (and .38) at the time. I sorta fell in love with the versatility of the little rifle for outdoor use, though. A 20" barrel really woke up the .357 loads. Out of a rifle, it's a whole nuther caliber, capable of killing deer efficiently to 100 yards. With light .38 loads, it is effectively a reloadable .22 lever gun for small game. However, I've not found it to be quite as accurate as a good .22 for squirrel hunting, so haven't used it in that roll. It shoots about 1.5" groups at 25 yards, near 3" at 50, which I consider not quite good enough for squirrel hunting.

In the urban defense roll, it would pack a lot more punch than the revolver and be a lot easier to shoot accurately, especially at extended ranges. However, I've found that you don't really wanna leave that tube magazine loaded for extended periods. The spring pressure tends to deform the nose of the bullet after while. I would suspect this would be the case with the Marlin, too, similar magazine. Mine holds 10 rounds and you really don't need to load that many, though. With five rounds in the tube, there's a lot less spring pressure on the rounds.

I don't use mine in the self defense roll at all, but it'd be a good gun for that. The only advantage a 9mm or .45ACP carbine have is ease of shooting, because of the faster burning powders they use are burned pretty efficiently in shorter barrels. You don't get the big velocity increases with these rounds like you do with magnum revolver rounds. I really don't have a use for such a gun, but self defense is one legit use for them. They lack the penetration of rifle rounds in an urban environment, which is a good thing. Many, like the Marlin, are magazine fed, sure the KT is too, though I've never looked at it that close.

Anyway, if it's ballistic improvement you're looking for, the magnum rounds benefit most. The auto rounds are just a bit easier to shoot accurately out of a carbine, won't improve much in range or energy.

Check out the IMI Timberwolf pump .357 magnum carbine. That one looks really, really cool to me and would be faster to shoot than a lever gun. The lever gun has the traditional looks, of course.

[Bobarino]

i have a Sub 2000 and i dig it! its quite fun to shoot, ammo is cheap and its more accurate than one might expect. the trigger is pretty bad but its no match rifle to begin with. you can get a short picatinny rail to mount under the forearm for a flashlight or other gizmo, and you can pick up glock 33 round mags for about $22 each nowadays. i like lever guns too, but for a potential defensive rifle, i'll take capacity and semi-auto speed anyday. and heck for $299-ish, you can't go too wrong.

Bobby

[sm]

Lever Action.

I like the compact, easy to tote, non-dependent on magazines to run package.

.22 long rifle .357, .44 mag, and not pistol caliber 45-70. Proven and continue to work today as they will tomorrow.

Born and raised Southern Gentleman myself, too many folks just use these.

I have piddled some with Marlin camp carbines in 9mm and 45ACP, just not as dependable, and parts today are hard to get, as is a gunsmith who knows what he is doing.

Find a good used lever action, tweak the fit, tweak the sights [NO scopes for me] and use it. Pass it down to your grandkids.

There is that political correct bit as well...it is as American as Mom, Chevy and Apple Pie.
Make mine a fried apple pie if you please.

*grin* I know some Southern Belle's Toting Lever Actions, cutest little grins, and beautiful as all get out. Don't mess with a Southern Belle and her lever action. She can shoot a gnats butt at 50 yrds. "You want me hit the right cheek or left one darling ?".

Darling damn Southern Belle's have that way of saying that too!

:D

[perpster]

SM: I want to buy US whenever I can. That's why my shotgun will be a Mossberg, not the Benelli the gunshop tried to sell me on. Owning a levergun will fit right in with my love of America and my CMP M1 Garand.

Bobarino: Good points. I think I'll have to buy BOTH a Sub 2000 AND a Marlin 1894C. Heck, they're both American, right!?

McG: I've seen posts about the Timberwolf but apparently it is no longer made? It's not US-made, but it seems to be the only pump .357 out there (and Israel is a democratic ally). Good point about the longer tube only boosting the magnum load, but I'd like to be able to reach out and touch accurately a little further than I can with a 4" barrel on my 9mm Glock.

Great replies; keep the thread going.

[craig]

i have both a sub 2000, and a hi point 9mm carbine. they are great all around fun guns. wouldn't hesitate/feel undergunned using either in a defensive role. my wife's got an 1894 marlin in .357. that gun has amazed me how accurate and reliable it is. gonna put a scope on it soon and it'll be even better. my suggestion is, buy all 3.:)

[MCgunner]

The Marlin SHOULD (not sure) be drilled and tapped for a receiver aperture sight. I LOVE apertures, adapted one to my Rossi. For self defense, use irons or at most a red dot style sight, nothing with magnification. If you go with a receiver, ghost ring it. You'll be quick and accurate with a ghost ring aperture. My little carbine will group 4" at 100 yards with my own gas checked, cast 158 grainers. Pretty amazing little carbine and the Marlins are stronger, too. That 92 action is an open top style. Lever guns are just CLASSIC and purposeful with a receiver sight.

[Old John]

Hi Y'all,
Yeah, I do. I love Leverguns. I have a few, in .22, 357Mag., .45Colt,
and 30/30.
Nothing like them.

The Pistol caliber carbines match my Rugers, in the same.
You can't beat a GP 100, .357m\Mag. with a Trapper Special
to match.
Or, likewise, hard to beat, is a .45Colt Vaquero with a Trails End,
to match.
Or, shoot, a .22 Single-six, with a little Henry levergun to match.

Good for Fun or Home defense. Great for the Homesteader, out in
the woods.

Yiup, I like my 1911's too. I just can't find a levergun to match 'em
Have fun.
Old John

[Z_Infidel]

If you want to go with a .357 Magnum such as the Marlin 1894C and be able to share ammo between that and a revolver, then 158 gr bullets will probably be a good choice. Select hollow or soft points depending on your application -- I use soft points. There are revolvers that shoot the 158 gr bullet very well and some that don't, so you might need to do some experimenting to find the combination that works best for you. My S&W 586 and Ruger GP-100 both shoot 158 gr bullets nicely.

I have the XS Sights ghost ring setup on my 1894C and it works very well. Easy to install, too.

I have found that the .357 Mag carbine is a good choice for plinking and varmint control around my property (rural area) since it doesn't have the range and power of a rifle round. Obviously, care must still be taken to be sure what is beyond your target.

The 1894C would make a good defensive weapon should circumstances warrant. It actually can serve a good many purposes. My .30-30 is my favorite lever gun, but I'm glad to have the 1894C around -- it's just so handy and easy to shoot.

[sm]

While I appreciate pistol calibers in lever actions - make mine a OLD Model 94 in 30-30 for general purpose.

Now if my next sentence don't convince ya, nothing will.

Darn sexy to watch a tall Texan Gal, hot sun beating down, little beads of sweat, tight jeans, tanned, with a green cotton shirt, ponytail tied back with a length of rawhide, Ray-Ban Aviators, straw cowboy hat, bone stock Gov't Model of 1911 on her hip - hike a boot on the back bumper of a pick-em truck , or lean across the hood and take out feral cats with a Model 94 in thutty-thutty.

I was riding shotgun and spotting shots.

[MCgunner]

Why is it this thread keeps going porno???:D

[1911 guy]

I personally don't have any use for them. If it's a pistol calber, you can have it in a convenient pistol sized package. If the weapon is larger, go with a rifle caliber and make the best use of a larger weapon. Again, just my opinion.

[perpster]

1911 Guy, I agree it's best to use the right tool for the right job. But, there are times where your rifle might not be available but a small carbine is, and if you have your handgun with you and they share the same ammo/mags, you've got an intermediate range weapon.

I don't think pistol caliber carbines are the greatest thing since sliced bread, but I can see where they fill a niche for a handgun owner.

Also, there may be times when you have a rifle but overpenetration is a concern. Pistol size carbines would minimize that problem.

[roscoe]

Also, .357 and .44 are a lot more powerful from a rifle. .357 can be brought up to 30-30 levels. 9mm does not gain much from a longer barrel.

A short .357 lever gun is pretty versatile - it has enough rounds, power, and speed, and is compact enough to be reasonable at home defense, plus it can easily be used for hunting out to 100 yards.

Add the PC factor, and is a reasonable solution to some problems. Granted, there are specialty weapons that fill all these roles better, but if you only have one rifle, it is not bad.

[perpster]

well said, Roscoe.

[1911 guy]

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. I know there is a velocity gain in the longer barrel, but a 30-30 doles out more than a .44 mag. Rifles is rifles, handguns is handguns. Magazine interchangeability narrows the field even more.

[wanderinwalker]

Also, .357 and .44 are a lot more powerful from a rifle. .357 can be brought up to 30-30 levels. 9mm does not gain much from a longer barrel.

A short .357 lever gun is pretty versatile - it has enough rounds, power, and speed, and is compact enough to be reasonable at home defense, plus it can easily be used for hunting out to 100 yards.

Add the PC factor, and is a reasonable solution to some problems. Granted, there are specialty weapons that fill all these roles better, but if you only have one rifle, it is not bad.

I confess, the PC factor is a reason behind my Marlin 1894PG. Face it, my AR-15 is great and with a few uppers can be very versatile, but it is persona non grata in some places (as is my Glock 17). People just don't seem to be so frightened when they see a "cowboy gun."

Plus, the .44 Magnum makes a handy 100-150 yard game cartridge out of a carbine, I'll shoot it in some areas where I'd rather have a shotgun than a "real" rifle and it is lightweight. It is reliable and holds 10 +1 of .44 Magnum and is far easier to shoot past 25 yards than any handgun I've ever held.

Needless to say, I like the idea of pistol caliber carbines myself and all I have to say to those who tell me to get a rifle cartridge if I'm carrying a rifle is :neener: !! ;)

[albanian]

"I have S&W revolvers and Glock semi-auto handguns in .38/.357 and 9mm calibers, respectively [I don't touch S&W semi-autos and Glock doesn't make revolvers]."

What is wrong with S&W autos? Just curious because I used to think they were junk before I owned any. Now that I have tried some of them, I respect them. I have the 3913 and the 6906 and they are very good guns that are 100% reliable and pretty accurate. I used to think they were average or below average pistols but now I know they are above average.

I have only owned three makes of semi-suto pistol that have never jammed, S&W, Ruger and Beretta. I have owned just about every type, make and caliber out there but one of the above three would be my choice if I had to grab a gun and know it would work without breaking it in or tweaking it. Kahrs will break in nicely but out of the box, they may have some problems until break in is over.

[roscoe]

I'm not sure I'd agree with that. I know there is a velocity gain in the longer barrel, but a 30-30 doles out more than a .44 mag.

Check the Buffal Bore website:
.357 from an 18.5" barrel - 158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps


I don't know what the gain is for a .44, however.

[Shooter973]

I have a few of these in 357, and 44 mag. and they are handy little rifles. One or two more things about them that I like is, The hit probability is a lot higher with the rifle than with a handgun, and if you watch out for a good deal they are much less expensive to buy that a Handgun in the same calibers. :) And since I already have the handguns and reload for them why not get another firearm that uses the same ammo?

[MCgunner]

Check the Buffal Bore website:
.357 from an 18.5" barrel - 158gr. Speer Uni Core = 2153 fps


I don't know what the gain is for a .44, however.

I have to say that sounds rather optimistic. I get 1827 fps out of a 20 Inch barrel using a 158 Grain SWC gas checked in front of 14.5 grains of 2400, which is a pretty hot load, hot as I wanna go anyway. That load gives 1171 ft lbs at the muzzle. That's pretty respectable, though. Out of my Blackhawk that load is moving 1472 fps (6.5" barrel) for 760 ft lbs.

The load you're showing rivals .30-30 ballistics and there's just no way.

[nipprdog]

I have to say that sounds rather optimistic. I get 1827 fps out of a 20 Inch barrel using a 158 Grain SWC gas checked in front of 14.5 grains of 2400, which is a pretty hot load, hot as I wanna go anyway. That load gives 1171 ft lbs at the muzzle. That's pretty respectable, though. Out of my Blackhawk that load is moving 1472 fps (6.5" barrel) for 760 ft lbs.

The load you're showing rivals .30-30 ballistics and there's just no way.

:rolleyes:

http://www.buffalobore.com/ammunition/default.htm#357

[roscoe]

The load you're showing rivals .30-30 ballistics and there's just no way.

That's exactly what I'm a-sayin.

[106rr]

For a catastophe weapon I would vote for the most PC carbine you can buy. Usually a Marlin, Rossi or Winchester 357 lever action. I hope that you all remember what happened in New Orleans after the flood. There is a video of police officers disarming and roughing up an old woman. These guys were VOLUNTEERS and at least one was from CA. It apparently is not hard to convince them to disarm legally armed people. They used the trust generated by the police uniforms to get close enough to attack her.
The lever action carbines are suitable for any member of the family. If you get something really PC, maybe they won't rough up your mom and take the gun

[1911 guy]

All ammo manufacturers pad the data a bit, it's a sort of tradition to garner more sales. Even off the data is 100% on the level, it would be unsafe to use the ammo in a revolver, so the point of having a carbine in your chosen pistol caliber is moot once again, you're back to two seperate batches of ammo. So why not get the 30-30?

I'm not against them entirely, I had a Winchester 94 in .44Mag I took a few deer with and liked it. But it didn't do much a .44 revolver couldn't do. I just don't see the ammo interchangeability to be a selling point, which was one of the points raised by the initial post.

[MCgunner]

I may order a box of these things and test 'em for myself. They may be exaggerating, but that's a heck of a tall tale there. If it's true, maybe they've found some sort of magic powder or something that no one else knows about. It would be kinda cool if my little .357 carbine could shoot like a .30-30, worth a box of their ammo to find out. Heck, they might shoot at least shoot better than anything I've tried, but I ain't holding my breath for 2100+ fps.:rolleyes: There's but one way to find out, though. Just wish I had a strain gauge to test the pressures, but surely they wouldn't be selling these loads if they were unsafe.

[roscoe]

Even off the data is 100% on the level, it would be unsafe to use the ammo in a revolver

I don't have a chronometer, although no one I know has ever said that Buffalo Bore's numbers are off.

As for using them in a revolver, I shoot the 180 grain hardcast from my Ruger Service Six occasionally (less than I might otherwise because of the expense) and have no problem. They explicitly say that the loads are save for steel revolvers. It definitely snaps, I will say that much, and the Service Six is pretty heavy.

My understanding is that they load up heavily with slow-burning powders; hence the better performance out of a rifle.

You can see a chrono of their 180 grain load here:
http://www.gunblast.com/MilesFortis-AKChurch_BuffaloBore.htm

They averaged 1847 fps from the 180 grain load, out of a 16" barrel, which is almost exactly what Buffalo Bore site lists for a 18.5" barrel. Again, I don't know about the other loads thay make, and I have never chronoed one myself.

[PI Rob]

I'm still waiting for a levergun in .45acp to come out to go with my .45 revo. There has to be a way to make it work.

[GigaBuist]

I'm still waiting for a levergun in .45acp to come out to go with my .45 revo. There has to be a way to make it work.I'm sure there is, but not easily. Lever guns have traditionally been designed to work with rimmed rounds, at least when they're done up with a tubular magazine. You can do 30-06 in a box magazine lever gun which I think was an 1895 model by Winchester. Putting .45ACP a box magazine on a lever gun would be rather odd looking and awkward I think.

If it was up to me I'd say the original poster should just go head and get both a Marlin 1894C and the KT in 9mm that takes Glock magazines -- but that's because I've done the exact same thing. :)

Presuming the Buffalo Bore claim to getting 30-30 energies is true here's why you'd still buy a .357 instead of a 30-30: Cheap plinking ammo with .38 specials. That's fun, and not too costly. Besdies, going to 30-30 levels is only going to be useful for hunting. If you're looking for two legged critter control I'd be very interested in hearing why .357 out of an 18" or 20" barrel isn't enough gun, assuming we're talking about 50 yards or less.

I have had my Marlin bind up on me a couple of times. Once not in my hands and once in my hands. I'm not too happy about that, and I should probably look into the issue more.

With the Kel-Tec I've had a few problems. One is that the original front sight on them is pathetic. I tried zeroing the thing in after I was irked that it shot low and discovered that there's no way to adjust the front sight in a controlled manner. You just unscrew it, float it around, and tighten it back down. Not cool unless you an hold objects in place with your mind.

Plus, being plastic, I managed to break the thing in half while trying to zero it. Really not cool!

I finally got around to ordering up a new front-sight post from BlueForceGear.com and put that on, but it seems they've discontinued the product. I'm not sure if there's a replacement. With a Tritum AR-15 post in the new front sight housing and 30+ round magazines this might turn out to be a serious weapon.

However, a recent range trip in fairly close (30 degree) weather brought me some jamming problems, but I reckon this was because I was using the cheap Scherer <sp?> mags instead of Glock factory. The Glock factory 10 round mag gave me no problems. The round wasn't stripping off the Scherer mag right and would get SMASHED in the chamber, deforming it. They worked fine in warm weather though.

The area on the KT where you get your cheek weld was not comfortable after a while, and I'd sometimes get slightly bruised/sore on the face after shooting it, what with it being metal on muscle and bone. I put some buffer on there from BlueForceGear.com and that seems to help a lot.

The 1" stock extension to the KT is pretty much necessary, IMHO. If you were a 10 year old Chinese boy it might fit fine without the extension, but at 5'9" and 140 pounds even I found it a bit cramped.

I've also found that you can shove the KT, folded up, into an old laptop bag with magazines in the side pockets. That's a handy way to carrying a "long gun" with you while traveling without it being remotely obvious that you've got one with you.

All that aside... they're both very fun guns to shoot, and the ammo isn't very expensive either, which is really the ultimate reason I bought them. Well, that and I got my KT for $250 from a gunshop that was having a going out of business sale.

[spaceCADETzoom]

Outside of .30-30 what calibers does the model 94 winchester come in? I've always wanted to get one, never did. My dad had one, I never fired it.

Whats the cheapest caliber it comes in? I mean the ammunition..? how much does 30-30 cost? I bought a beretta carbine in part because of cheap 9mm...I'm a .45 guy, but somehow bought me one of these beretta storms on a whim...thought it'd be neat to get with a matching 92fs...again, odd, since i've upto this point stayed with my 1911s.

ANyway, about a lever action..?

[perpster]

I'm not against them entirely, I had a Winchester 94 in .44Mag I took a few deer with and liked it. But it didn't do much a .44 revolver couldn't do. I just don't see the ammo interchangeability to be a selling point, which was one of the points raised by the initial post.

Presuming the Buffalo Bore claim to getting 30-30 energies is true here's why you'd still buy a .357 instead of a 30-30: Cheap plinking ammo with .38 specials. That's fun, and not too costly. Besdies, going to 30-30 levels is only going to be useful for hunting. If you're looking for two legged critter control I'd be very interested in hearing why .357 out of an 18" or 20" barrel isn't enough gun, assuming we're talking about 50 yards or less.

I think GigaBuist put the finger on it: with both the .357 and the 9mm, you've got a single cartridge that can be loaded in a handgun for close-in defense or loaded in a carbine for mid-range defense. In a pinch either (ok, not so much with the 9mm but still possible) can be used to put some food on the table. Both should be relatively easier to find than other cartridges if/when SHTF. Both are relatively inexpensive to practice with (especially if using .38, though I believe in practicing with your street round as often as possible in your .357).

Are they the be all and end all? Definately not. But if looking for ammo that can be used CQB out to 100 yards with reliable accuracy and effect, the .357 and 9mm with a handgun and carbine fit the bill. The ability to use .38 just sweetens the deal. And, both the wheelgunners and bottom-feeders can have a horse in this race.

All that being said, WHAT SINGLE FACTORY LOAD would anyone recommend to use interchangeably in a handgun and/or carbine? After all, as 1911Guy said, "ammo interchangeability to be a selling point, which was one of the points raised by the initial post."

I am envisioning primary use of either the handgun or carbine to be personal defense in the normal world, and in a SHTF world personal defense and some hunting-for-food assignments. What would be the one .357 cartridge to carry and stock up on? I have read that .357 125 grain JHP is the hands-down best stopper round there is, but I have also read that they aren't advisable for use in a carbine:

"Preferred carbine ammunition differs from handgun rounds in the
same caliber normally selected for self protection. The longer carbine
barrel boosts muzzle velocities by at least several hundred feet per
second. The lighter bullets: 110 and 125 grains, can be too fragile to
endure extreme velocities and may disintegrate. Equally undesirable,
the heavier bullets: 158 and 180 grains, will likely pass through an
assailant, thereby endangering innocent bystanders. Consider the 140
grain JHP to represent the optimum round for conflict resolution when
a carbine chambered for .357 Magnum is used for personal
protection." [from http ://www.internetarmory.com/rifle ammo.htm]

In 9mm's I've read that only 110-125 grain +P JHP's fit the bill.

I should add that I fire .357's from a 5" S&W 686P, though I am tempted to obtain an easier to conceal 2" or 3" S&W .357 revolver. I realize that the shorter barrels deprive the .357 magnum of its potential, but that would be the trade-off for concealed carry. I fire the 9mm from 4" barrel with the G19.

Of course I'm thinking of a round in each caliber that is in the normal price range for each caliber--no exotic or specialty rounds need apply.

What are your learned opinions folks?

Perp

PS: The least expensive new factory .357 ammo I've found is at Aim Surplus. $8.95 for Sellier & Bellot 158 grain FMJ, and $9.95 for Aguila 158 grain semi-jacketed HP. Both prices are for boxes of 50 rounds. Of course neither of these seems to "fit the bill" although maybe the Aguila might?

[wanderinwalker]

I have to say that sounds rather optimistic. I get 1827 fps out of a 20 Inch barrel using a 158 Grain SWC gas checked in front of 14.5 grains of 2400, which is a pretty hot load, hot as I wanna go anyway. That load gives 1171 ft lbs at the muzzle. That's pretty respectable, though. Out of my Blackhawk that load is moving 1472 fps (6.5" barrel) for 760 ft lbs.

The load you're showing rivals .30-30 ballistics and there's just no way.

Most of the reloading books I have on hand show around a 100-fps increase in pistol velocities just using H110 or WW296 over 2400, at the same pressures. Honestly, 296 is the only powder I've ever burned in full-house .44 Magnum loads. Haven't chrono'ed them with the rifle yet, but I suspect energy levels close to a 20" .30-30 with max loads, which are still safe in handguns.

As for useful ammo for the .357, I suspect some Speer Gold Dots in 158gr variety would make a good all-around selection. Something in a JSP might be better for taking 4-legged critters, but I'm not sure what is out there for that in that caliber. Also a possibility, though getting up in expense, are the Winchester Partition Handgun loads with 180gr bullets.

[MCgunner]

Presuming the Buffalo Bore claim to getting 30-30 energies is true here's why you'd still buy a .357 instead of a 30-30: Cheap plinking ammo with .38 specials. That's fun, and not too costly. Besdies, going to 30-30 levels is only going to be useful for hunting. If you're looking for two legged critter control I'd be very interested in hearing why .357 out of an 18" or 20" barrel isn't enough gun, assuming we're talking about 50 yards or less.

Well, light .38 loads turn my carbine effectively into a .22. I load a 105 grain SWC at low velocities and it's just a hoot to pop tin cans with, could be used for small game. Then, with full power SWC loads, I've killed deer to 80 yards. I zeroed the gun at 100 yards and it's fully capable of killing deer to that range, no problem. If it'll kill a deer to 100 yards, it'll take a human easily.


Most of the reloading books I have on hand show around a 100-fps increase in pistol velocities just using H110 or WW296 over 2400, at the same pressures. Honestly, 296 is the only powder I've ever burned in full-house .44 Magnum loads. Haven't chrono'ed them with the rifle yet, but I suspect energy levels close to a 20" .30-30 with max loads, which are still safe in handguns.

I've chronoed a friend's max loads he uses 296 with and while they had a little more zing, wasn't enough to get me to switch powders since I use 2400 in other loads, too. Both powders are good for the .357, but I think his load got around 1900 fps with a 158 grain jacketed soft point bullet, not 2100 like that buffalo bore load. The main thing I liked about the 296 was it burned a little cleaner.

What I'm thinking they're doing is something similar to what Hornady does with the "light magnum" loads, an even slower powder than 2400/296 trickled into the case to make it fit and a compressed charge. I'm going to try some. I may post results when I do, but it might be a while before I get around to it.

[P. Plainsman]

Last week I realized I had been neglecting my Marlin 1894C .357 carbine, so I hauled it out of the car trunk and ran some Federal AE 158 gr JSPs through it, aiming at a 5" 25 yard bullseye over ghost ring sights. No problems making the hits.

These are simply great little guns. Others have pointed out that the .357 Mag, being one of the more "rifle-like" handgun cartridges, gains a lot of velocity in a carbine barrel. A 400 fps boost over handgun velocities is commonly reported.

I wouldn't be surprised to learn that those humdrum Federal JSPs I was shooting clocked 1600-1650 fps from the Marlin. Ten rounds of 158 @ 1600, with soft recoil, that could be easily delivered in a defensive or hunting situation out to 50 yards with open sights, in a light, handy, attractive firearm -- not bad.

A few closing observations about the little Marlins.

(1) The factory iron sights are hard to see. The best aftermarket option is the XS Sight Systems ghost ring setup for about $80. Nice clear front post.

(2) A compact red-dot sight would also be a great alternative.

(3) Get the Wild West Guns aftermarket trigger kit! Runs about $90. A superb product. Eliminates the "flop" of the factory trigger and yields a clean, crisp pull of reduced (but not dangerously light) weight. Perfect for a handy carbine.

(4) The Marlins feature nice amenities. Good wood, good checkering, sling swivels, and a comfy rubber butt pad. It's a lot of gun for around $400. Factor in the aftermarket sights and trigger I've mentioned and you end up with a thoroughly sweet carbine for a bit under $600 -- the same price as a stock Beretta Storm.

(5) My 1894C doesn't feed .38 Special cases well. A gunsmith has tried to fix this glitch, but with only partial success. It runs fine with .357 cases, so that's what I stick with. While most 1894C owners don't seem to encounter this problem, I wanted to disclose it.

[perpster]

High Plainsman, and thanks for Drifting by! ;-)

I appreciate the straight talk and the suggestions for post-purchase.

Was it difficult to install and sight-in the XS sight system? Did you go with the "big dot" or small dot front sight?

Thanks,

Perp

[P. Plainsman]

I had my gunsmith install the XS sights while he was doing some other work on the Marlin. However, my understanding is that it's not too hard. Folks often do it themselves.

The XS front sight is a blued front sight post inlaid with a white vertical notch or stripe. Very clear and easy to pick up.

If you're not used to ghost ring sights it might take a couple of range outings before you "settle in" with that setup. It did for me. At first, indifferent accuracy that was frustrating. Then all of a sudden the shots started hitting POI right to the top edge of the front sight. I didn't do anything differently. I think that practice just teaches you to adjust subconsciously to the sights, so you start to put the front post right in the middle of the "ring" without thinking about it.

[106rr]

A good compromise load for pistol and carbine might be the Winchester Silvertip 145gr. This would be suitable for any pistol larger than an sp101 and eminently suitable for the carbine. The Hornady 140 gr XTP would also work well.
Buffalo Bore ballistics have been challenged many times. They always come very close to advertised velocities.

[P. Plainsman]

There's a Shooting Times article on the web that tested the 145 gr Silvertip JHP from a Marlin 1894 -- they got around 1600 fps. It's a good round.

Now, some caution that JSPs are preferable to JHPs in a .357 carbine. They reason that most hollowpoint handgun bullets are engineered to expand optimally within a particular velocity range, and the souped-up velocity from a long gun's barrel can cause them to overexpand (or even fragment) creating underpenetration problems.

[shane justice]

Guys,

Good discussion....

I wonder....why Ruger...or some after market company does not make an extended mag for the Model 99/44?

Shane

[P. Plainsman]

I wonder....why Ruger...or some after market company does not make an extended mag for the Model 99/44?

That's the semi-auto Deerfield Carbine, right? It uses a "rotary" type magazine that differs from the usual stick mags found on semi-auto firearms. You can't easily make an aftermarket "hi-cap" magazine for it. Which means the real question is: why did Ruger use a rotary magazine for the Deerfield, when they could have used a standard design that would permit the creation and use of high-capacity magazines, thereby producing a very desirable self-defense gun?

(Col. Jeff Cooper had a pet concept called "Thumper" that was a handy infantry carbine in .44 Magnum. A Ruger Deerfield that took 20-round mags would basically incarnate Thumper. But no.)

Ruger would tell you it's because the rotary design is very reliable for a hunting weapon. Bill Ruger admired the old Savage lever guns that used a similar principle. Many shooters suspect, however, that the real answer is that Ruger is squeamish about providing militarily effective long guns to American citizens.

Anyway. Here's a good John Taffin article on loading for the .357 lever gun. ("To me, the 10-shot 1894C .357 Magnum is the handiest and most desirable of all centerfire rifles of any caliber or action type.")

http://www.looksmarthunting.com/p/articles/mi_m0BQY/is_12_50/ai_n6275756

Mr. Taffin's handloads top out at 158 @ 1850 and 140 @ 2000 in the little Marlin.

[perpster]

FWIW, since this discussion includes using .38 special in both handguns and rifles, here's a link to readable tech info on a .38 special cartridge developed specifically for snubby revolvers (1 7/8 to 3 inch barrels):

http://le.atk.com/pdf/SpeerTech38_135HP.pdf

They now offer it in other calibers, including .357 magnum. Here's a link to the catalog: http://glarp.atk.com/2005Catalogs/pdfs/CCI-Speer-centerfire_2005_catalog.pdf

I wonder how these rounds engineered to expand from 2-3" barrels would hold up being shot from a Marlin 1894C or Winchester 94.

Perp

[MCgunner]

That's the semi-auto Deerfield Carbine, right? It uses a "rotary" type magazine that differs from the usual stick mags found on semi-auto firearms. You can't easily make an aftermarket "hi-cap" magazine for it.

Why not? Ramline made tons of high cap mags for the 10/22, a rotary mag. I like the rotary mags, though, in the 10/22. They work great and are easy to load. I don't really care about high capacity, anyway. I don't see a need for a long gun at extended ranges, not a legitimate use of a firearm for self defense as I see it. If I'm that far away, I can call 911 or run. If I'm not cornered, I don't need to fight. Now, for law enforcement I can see it.

If I wanted such a high cap gun, though, they've built one for 70 years, the M1 Carbine. It's no .44, but I remember seeing one company's ad where they were building the carbine on a magnum caliber, .44 or something. I don't really remember the caliber, but it sounded kind of neat and I remember thinking it was a deer hunting capable caliber. Maybe it was one of the hot cartridges based on the .45 ACP? I can't remember. I've always sorta liked the looks and lines of the M1 carbine, but never bought one because I had no need for the puny caliber and they're a little expensive for a range queen considering the price of SKSs and 7.62x39 surplus ammo.

[Father Knows Best]

That's the semi-auto Deerfield Carbine, right? It uses a "rotary" type magazine that differs from the usual stick mags found on semi-auto firearms. You can't easily make an aftermarket "hi-cap" magazine for it. Which means the real question is: why did Ruger use a rotary magazine for the Deerfield, when they could have used a standard design that would permit the creation and use of high-capacity magazines, thereby producing a very desirable self-defense gun?

Ruger would tell you it's because the rotary design is very reliable for a hunting weapon. Bill Ruger admired the old Savage lever guns that used a similar principle. Many shooters suspect, however, that the real answer is that Ruger is squeamish about providing militarily effective long guns to American citizens.

I thought the reason for the rotary magazine was that it worked very well with rimmed cartridges. Standard stick-type single or double stack mags work well with rimless rounds, but can suffer from "rim lock" if they are improperly loaded with a rimmed cartridge. The rotary magazine solves that problem completely.

Rimmed cartridges can also feed from a tubular mag, of course, but then you run into the problem of restricted bullet shapes (to keep a bullet from setting off the primer of the round in front of it in the tube).

[middy]

I hate to rain on the parade, but if I'm going to carry a long gun it's going to be a heck of a lot more powerful than any handgun round...

But that's just me.

[perpster]

I hate to rain on the parade, but if I'm going to carry a long gun it's going to be a heck of a lot more powerful than any handgun round...

Understood, but for argument's sake let's suppose supplies have dried up and all you have left is your rifle, your handgun and handgun ammo...

[Hobie]

I have an 1894C, .357 Mag, 18½" barrel. 18 gr. of Lil'Gun under the 158 gr. jacketed bullets from Hornady or Speer get 2000 fps. Factory 125s from Federal get 2100 fps. Proper load development produces squirrel capable guns. I carry mine in the truck when out and about.

[1911 guy]

They do work well with rimmed rounds, but the enfields have gotten by with box mags for a long time, most bolt .22's have box mags, also. If you load them correctly (depress round, slide to rear of mag, repeat with subsequent rounds), they're not a problem. I, too, think the problem lies more with Ruger.

If all I have is a rifle, handgun and handgun ammo, I'll carry a handgun. I'm not saying they're useless, but for the purposes that brought about the discussion in the original post, they're a distant second.

[perpster]

If all I have is a rifle, handgun and handgun ammo, I'll carry a handgun. I'm not saying they're useless, but for the purposes that brought about the discussion in the original post, they're a distant second.

1911 guy, I respectfully disagree. If all I have is a rifle (carbine), handgun and handgun ammo, I'll carry BOTH the carbine and the handgun, because if they are of the same caliber my ability to accurately "reach out and touch" someone just got markedly improved by having the carbine in a common caliber. If all "they" have is a handgun (and even a shotgun) I now have a 50 to 100 yard standoff capability that they lack. If they have a carbine, too, we're relatively even. If they have a RIFLE I'm outgunned but at least I've got a chance at them before they close in to handgun range. Yes, I'd have a better chance with a full length rifle (if I also have rifle ammo), but for less than 10 extra pounds and 36" and not having to remember which ammo is where--anything I can put my fingers on can be loaded into either weapon in the heat of battle, I wouldn't want to forego the carbine. It could be the difference between surviving or dying.

Respectfully Submitted,

Perp

[Reap23]

I love the lever action rifle, Winchesters' in particular... I have a 9422, 9422M, .44 mag Trapper and a .30-.30, but what about the opinions on the other type carbines?
The reason of my question is I am getting a Beretta 92 Inox tomorrow, and kicked around the Beretta carbine... "the Storm" and would like some opinions on the rifle. I mean, if I can use the excuse of "but babe, I don't have to buy different magazines for this" could possibly work... why not try it? :D

Besides, from what I read, you can get a .45, .40 or the 9mm.

[brickboy240]

I have Marlin 1894s in 44 mag and 357 and love them both. Accurate, handy, reliable and very fun to shoot. The great thing is that you can load them light, with cowboy loads for plinking and not even need hearing protection or load them really hot and go hunting. I would guess that either caliber loaded with Hydra-Shoks or Silvertips would make a great home defense round.

If the 250gr 44 mag load can stop a 200+ pound feral hog, it ought to put down an intruder with gusto. The 44 mag out of some revolvers is a real handfull, but out of a rifle, it is very controllable. The 44 Special hollowpoints also make great short range varmint rounds.

No, these are not bear or large deer guns or to be used for long distance shooting, but for 100yds or less, they're perfect. I think they make more sense for home defense than any AR variant. They're simpler and not as clunky or have extrenal magazines to fool with and are not nearly as noisy as the 223 round. The lower penetration might be a plus if you live near others, too. Glaser and Magsafe make great 357 and 44 mag home defense loads that will not go through many walls and take out the neighbors or your kids...something to think about. You can also buy a Marlin 1894 and a couple of cases of 357 or 44 mag ammo for what you'd pay for a decent AR rifle.

These Malrin lever-rifles are very stoutly made and will last you a long time. There are provisions for scopes or peep sights, if you want. I really think they have alot going for them. Choose whatever caliber you want and be happy. I really love th Marlin lever actions and carry one on our family ranch most of the time.

- Brickboy240

[perpster]

brickboy,

thanks. any suggestions on where to get a case of .357 ammo cheap? I'm thinking of 125 grain JHP or 158 JHP.

[Brian Williams]

I fully enjoy my Marlin 18904C in 357, 165gr LSWCgc over some Lil' gun is a hoot.

She ain't a South'rn belle but still cute as the dickens... My daughter Whitney shooting my 1894c
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=30826&d=1131141913
I know so don't tell me about glasses...


http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=5759&d=1062432911

HUGH DISCLAIMER
If you reload do so at your own risk with any Internet info
Some Lil Gun is 18 grs.

[perpster]

Nice Pics, Brian (and daughter, too!).

What's "up" with that tang-mounted peep sight??

[Brian Williams]

A Marble's Tang is the best sight you can have on a Marlin 1894c, with a Merit adjustable peep disc it makes shooting great for old eyes.

[perpster]

Does it interfere with grip? It looks like your daughter's hand might be fighting for space with the tang sight.

[Gohon]

I have an 1894C, .357 Mag, 18&#189;" barrel. 18 gr. of Lil'Gun under the 158 gr. jacketed bullets from Hornady or Speer get 2000 fps.

That's the same powder and bullet load I'm using. Still 200-300 fps short of the 30-30 and the 30-30 has a much higher BC so the lever 357 is not on par with the 30-30 as some claim but, it still will take deer cleanly out to 70-100 yards. I know, I’ve done it several times. (Load data removed by OP)

Middy, the only person that is going to get wet is you if you automatically rule out the fun you can have with the .357 lever.

Brian, where is the serial number for your rifle? Mine is right where you have that tang sight mounted. I think law would get a little upset if I hid it with a tang sight like that. I did have a Williams WGRS receiver sight mounted for awhile but switched over to a red dot sight which I like better.

[MCgunner]

I consider my .357 carbine quite useful. I've killed deer with it, rabbits with it, it's an all around outdoor carbine. If that buffalo bore load turns out as good as claimed, why own a .30-30 when I've got the .357?

Now, useless for me is an AR15.

[azredhawk44]

Guys, .30-30 and .357 lever carbine are two different animals.

You can't fit 35+ grains of powder into a .357 case with a 150+gr bullet. You can do that with the .30-30.

You can't get a 110gr sierra varminter spirepoint up to 2600+fps into a .357 case.

You can't shoot a hornady 100gr RN bullet at around 1000-1200fps with a few grains of unique.

You can't even launch a 220gr projectile out of a .357 case. You can do that with a .30-30.

You can't launch a 55gr .223 sabot out of a .357 case at 3400fps. You can do that with a .30-30.

Many of the cartridges I discussed above cannot be loaded into the tube magazine, but for 1 in the pipe and 1 in the mag, they all do just fine.

While both cartridges are optimized around 130-170gr bullets, the .30-30 scares the bejeezus out of the John Kerrys of the world, while the .357 does not. That's because its higher BC will defeat barriers and even some lower classes of body armor.

The .30-30 is a swiss army knife that the .357 will never match. Almost makes me want a Magnum Research BFR revolver in .30-30.:neener:

That said, I am strongly considering either a .357 or .44 levergun in the future. Fun toy. Maybe even Puma's .480Ruger lever gun.:evil:

[azredhawk44]

Forgot to add:

If you handload .357mag or .44mag for the Win94/Marlin1894, be sure to get a solid crimp on the bullet. You don't want it sinking back further into the case from the recoil or spring pressure.

[Brian Williams]

Serial number is on the left side of the gun and can be seen in the picture.

[MCgunner]

While both cartridges are optimized around 130-170gr bullets, the .30-30 scares the bejeezus out of the John Kerrys of the world, while the .357 does not. That's because its higher BC will defeat barriers and even some lower classes of body armor.

I'd think the added firepower of the .357 (ten rounds in the magazine) would scare the Kerrys more. I mean, isn't that the argument against the AKs and ARs? It sure ain't the powerful round!:rolleyes: You'd think they'd put Weatherbys on their "to do" list if power was the thing.

Okay, I know all about the .30-30. I have a .308. Whatever the .30-30 can do, my .308 can do better. Mine's a bolt gun, but it doesn't weight much more than a .30-30 carbine and is about the same length, actually. It's a little M7 stainless Remington. I also have the Rossi 92 in .357. My only lever carbine is a .357 and I like it for a variety of reasons. I like the fact it shoots .22 mag level .38s and also fires deer hunting capable rounds. I reload both calibers, but can crank out .357s on my progressive. If I'm going on a serious deer hunt, I grab the .308, though. The little carbine is my knock around gun, gun I pack in the truck, etc. It's just a handy little rifle and I can do more things with it than I can with a .30-30.

If I wanted to shoot a 220 grain bullet on something big, I'd just take my 7mm Remington Magnum and stick 160 grain Federal Premium Nosler Partitions in it. In reality, my .308 with 140 Barnes would probably work, too, for the same critter at less range. My one current .30-30 is in a Contender Pistol. I handload it with Nosler ballistic tips, something you cannot do in a tube magazine rifle unless you only load one round in the magazine, which is probably what I'd do considering it'd make the little rifle a 300 yard deer gun.;)

My comments about .30-30 vs .357 mag concern the "buffalo bore" .357 158 grain load. It's putting up over 1600 CLAIMED foot lbs. The .30-30 only makes 1800 or a little over. My handloads, hot as I dare go, make about 1200. If the buffalo bore load IS that good, it'll kill anything inside 100 yards, perhaps 150 depending on accuracy, that the .30-30 could kill. That's pretty impressive if true. I intend to test 'em in the future and maybe keep a box on hand if they turn out powerful and accurate. I think having a little lever gun that is so versatile and can almost match the .30-30 for power would be a really cool thing. One thing, though, I've yet to shoot a .30-30 carbine that wasn't amazingly accurate. I doubt those buffalo bore loads can match a good .30-30s accuracy out of my carbine, but it shoots decent enough at 100 yards with my cast/gas checked handloads for deer hunting and you just don't know what it'll do with another load until you try it.

[MCgunner]

I've also gotten 1840 fps with a 180 grain hard cast Lead LBTGS ahead of 14.5 grains of 2400. This load will take the toughest pig or even black bear if needed.


Wow, that'd be too hot for my little Rossi I'm afraid. I guess the marlin is a stronger action, but I shoot a 158 grainer over that charge for a max load. I can push a 180 grain XTP bullet to about 1600 fps with AA#9. I prefer to restrict that load to my Ruger Blackhawk, though, but I've fired it in the Rossi. I do have a 20" barrel, though.

[Z_Infidel]

I had the Marbles tang sight on my 1894C for a while and I agree it is a fine sight indeed. However, I have since installed XS Sights' ghost ring setup on both my 1894C and my 336C and I really like it better. The white line on the front sight is easy to pick up in all reasonable light conditions and the sights are very rugged. Plus now both of my lever guns have exactly the same sights, which is a good thing for me.

As for the argument regarding the .357 Mag vs .30-30, I bought the 1894C for the very reason that it shoots a less powerful cartridge that I feel more comfortable shooting around my home property than a true rifle cartridge. True, there are now commercially available loads that put the .357 close to .30-30 territory, but at a higher cost than .30-30 -- and the .30-30 still has the range advantage between the two. Plus, the new Hornady ammo raises the bar on .30-30 performance a bit more.

For me the ideal cartridge for what I want out of the 1894C is the 158 gr soft point in typical factory loads. Plenty of hitting power within its effective range and a good balance of penetration and expansion from the carbine-length barrel.

[Gohon]

Wow, that'd be too hot for my little Rossi I'm afraid. I guess the marlin is a stronger action, but I shoot a 158 grainer over that charge for a max load. I can push a 180 grain XTP bullet to about 1600 fps with AA#9. I prefer to restrict that load to my Ruger Blackhawk, though, but I've fired it in the Rossi. I do have a 20" barrel, though.

Actually MC you are correct.......... that load is to hot and I wasn't thinking when I posted it. I've been playing with fire with that particular load and just because I have gotten away with it in the past, it does not mean I always will. Manufactures publish max loads a little on the conservative side but there is a reason for it so disregard the load info I posted for your own safety.

[Glockman17366]

I personally don't have any use for them. If it's a pistol calber, you can have it in a convenient pistol sized package. If the weapon is larger, go with a rifle caliber and make the best use of a larger weapon. Again, just my opinion.

Welll, in the days when the cowboys were really cowboys, there was a damn good reason for carrying a rifle that shared cartridges with the sidearm. Seems like they did pretty good too.