Continuing the "friend or foe" discussion


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Oleg Volk
January 11, 2006, 07:53 PM
http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/albums/arms/whoisthis0124.sized.jpg

I don't think no-knock ("dynamic") warrants for reasons other than hostage rescue are a good idea. Does this image communicate that concept clearly? How can it be improved?

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Tequila_Sauer
January 11, 2006, 07:57 PM
I think it's better without the caption giving the answer at the bottom. Getting the person to look at the picture and genuinely question what you're asking without ever receiving a right answer is more effective, IMHO.

I really the point of the picture though. Very interesting.

taliv
January 11, 2006, 07:57 PM
for the sake of argument, if the gangbanger in the picture knocks and yells "police, open up we have a warrant"...

will the result be much different?

Oleg Volk
January 11, 2006, 07:59 PM
Possibly -- though hardly anyone knows what a warrant should look like, can at least tell them to wait while calling the local PD to inquire if their people are out witht hat warrant. Keep the hand on the claymore switch until they confirm :D

What do you think: keep the sub-caption or ditch it?

f4t9r
January 11, 2006, 08:00 PM
iT DOES MAKE YOU THINK !!!!!!!!!!!!!
iT COULD HAPPEN

taliv
January 11, 2006, 08:02 PM
i like the poster. i think it works. and i agree no-knocks suck, but it's just a bad situation all the way around. i've no idea what the solution is, but it has to be something other than "trust me. i'm from the government. i'm here to help."

odysseus
January 11, 2006, 08:19 PM
i like the poster. i think it works. and i agree no-knocks suck, but it's just a bad situation all the way around. i've no idea what the solution is, but it has to be something other than "trust me. i'm from the government. i'm here to help."

Exactly. There is no opportunity to check ID's and look at a warrant when someone is bursting through your door/windows with a rifle pointed at you and your family. :uhoh:


BTW Oleg, that's a good one.

Gordon Fink
January 11, 2006, 08:29 PM
And so many gun owners wonder why the police would want law-abiding citizens to be unarmed.

~G. Fink

Standing Wolf
January 11, 2006, 08:45 PM
Instead of "Bang, you are dead," the copy should read, "Bang! You're dead." The contraction would be far preferable.

That said™, I'm not sure the fine print needs to be there at all.

springmom
January 11, 2006, 08:51 PM
Possibly -- though hardly anyone knows what a warrant should look like, can at least tell them to wait while calling the local PD to inquire if their people are out witht hat warrant. Keep the hand on the claymore switch until they confirm :D

What do you think: keep the sub-caption or ditch it?

First of all, that is ONE POWERFUL IMAGE. Congratulations: it gave me the shivers. :eek:

...but what it says needs to be said as follow up. Is this going to be on a poster? A magazine ad? What? What you do with the text probably needs to be related to where the photo is going to be... Just my .02, highly overinflated as usual.

Springmom

Old NFO
January 11, 2006, 08:54 PM
Oleg, to make it more "correct" I'd have the shooter in a bacalava and backlit a little stronger so that you really have more outline than anything else. Also, i agree with Standing Wolf on the contraction.

Tomekeuro85
January 11, 2006, 09:04 PM
My thought is, if you haven't done anything wrong, you have nothing to worry about and it's most likely a gangloserbanger at your door. Police very rarely make mistakes like this. I'm not sure what this poster is advertising besides anti-no-knock entry, but you also have to see it from the point of view of the officers. If they give a warning to a dangerous suspect, they are only risking their own life by giving the suspect a chance to get a weapon, or escape. There was a story sometime back when an officer knocked with a warrant, and the suspect shot a .357 through the door and killed the officer. Had the officer not knocked, he would more likely still be alive. Also, police probably don't kick the door down and start shooting. (unless they are trigger happy or something)

However, in terms of effectiveness, I guess this will suffice. I agree as well with the contraction. You are dead takes too long to read.

R.H. Lee
January 11, 2006, 09:27 PM
If I saw that outside my door, I'd jump back and start negotiating. "Wait there until I call the police station and verify that you're legit. I am armed and if you attempt to enter I will open fire." I would then take cover and draw a bead on the door (probably with a 12 ga) while I call 911. What would the likely response be? It seems to me if they were gangbangers they would leave. If they were really cops I imagine tear gas and flashbangs would come crashing through windows.

Stiletto Null
January 11, 2006, 09:34 PM
Drop the subcaption, the picture had more impact without it.

***

Is it proper practice, if someone knocks on your door with a "Police! Warrant!" to yell back "Hold on, I'm going to verify with the department before I open the door"?

Jubei
January 11, 2006, 09:50 PM
I would drop the subcaption. While it does make an excellent point, it could seem a little heavy-handed. Kind of like the liberals cry of "for the childrens sake".

Jubei

Oleg Volk
January 11, 2006, 09:54 PM
I don't have a balaclava on hand, need to get it for use as a prop. I'll drop the sub-caption, would be more general that way.

Kodiaz
January 11, 2006, 10:17 PM
Keep the caption no sheep is going to think that a crook could look like a cop

You should stick call 911 to verify the warrant or some similar thing in as well because none of the sheep will know how to verify a warrant

Kodiaz
January 11, 2006, 10:19 PM
darn sorry double post make the caption at the bottom



He isn't a cop, BANG

taliv
January 12, 2006, 12:31 AM
oleg, perhaps a better subcaption would be a statistic like: "In the US, there were x home invasions in 2004 where the invaders impersonated LEOs. There were y home invasions by LEOs no-knocking the wrong house."

just to let people know that it does happen and it's not just a tinfoil hat paranoia




I think I heard a shot

Oleg Volk
January 12, 2006, 12:32 AM
Does anyone have even approximate numbers of such events?

Jay Kominek
January 12, 2006, 01:12 AM
"Doing a home invasion" sounds really odd to me. Perhaps "Committing a home invasion" or, even better, "invading your home".

Other than that, I think this could be one of the more effective ones of late.

Oleg Volk
January 12, 2006, 02:41 AM
http://www.olegvolk.net/gallery/albums/arms/whoisthis2_0124.sized.jpg

hso
January 12, 2006, 02:44 AM
How would it look if you changed DECIDE NOW for How Do You Know? Trying to "shout" from the page to trigger the OMG-Wadda-I-Do-? response is very difficult, but just making them think is the point.

I'd also mod the image to get rid of the SWAT on the hat because there may be a very large segment of the audience that doesn't even know you can purchase such hats easily.

I also might change the footer to "What happens if you're wrong".

Herself
January 12, 2006, 02:48 AM
Oh! Oleg, that's got a lot more snap! I like it.

Does anyone else want to take on the example cited above of the unfortunate officer serving a warrant the more usual way and getting shot for his troubles, or shall I? (Hint: police work is inherently dangerous. If that's a problem for you, consider another profession. The Bill of Rights is non-negotiable).

--Herself

Optical Serenity
January 12, 2006, 03:03 AM
And so many gun owners wonder why the police would want law-abiding citizens to be unarmed.

~G. Fink

I don't know ANY police officers (myself included) that have ever wanted citizens unarmed. At least not here in Georgia...but I've been all over the country and haven't seen it. For some reason people here are infatuated with cop-bashing...:rolleyes:

Oleg, no offense, but what is your deal with these anti cop posters? Can you please point me to the articles and what not that show how this situation occurs everyday?

Lets start telling people that ANY TIME a person is in uniform, they should question it. They should call 911, call the pentagon, CIA, the Associated Press, and the Interpol, and try to figure out if for sure this person is a police officer. In fact, people should carry around biometric readers in their wallets that prove you are a police officer? I don't get it...

Oleg Volk
January 12, 2006, 03:14 AM
hso, I'll make another poster with your input.

Optical Serenity,

Next time I come to Atlanta, we can get together and talk. My posters aren't anti-cop (look at who the THR mods and my other friends are!) but against a particular method of policing. I am not saying no-knocks are frequent or that mistakes are frequent, but I consider the method to be inappropriate as currently used.

Herself
January 12, 2006, 03:14 AM
I've got my "question authority" lapel button right here, OS, and I mean it, too. I'm a c-i-v-i-l-i-a-n; that means I don't have to salute the brass.

But there are levels to this. A traffic pull-over, the odds favor it being a real cop, especially if I was speeding (not that I have ever sped) or just did a moronic "deep amber" trick at a traffic light. On the other hand, if the door comes crashing in some night, the odds favor it not being a cop. And if it's not, waiting to make sure will get me killed or worse.

Nor is it a matter of "how many wrong." No-knock warrants are iffy to begin with and plain wrong when executed at the wrong address. Even it it happens only once, that's too many. Our legal system assumes innocence, not guilt. That puts the burden of getting it right when serving warrants on the police.

--Herself

Optical Serenity
January 12, 2006, 03:33 AM
Oleg, we shall! Or next time i'm up in Nashville, I was supposed to be in Brentwood last week but got called to a special detail instead...

Herself,
If you don't like no-knocks, why not petition your law makers you have voted into office to change it? Until then, it is a legal way of doing things. And guess what? There are many times when a no-knock is absolutely necessary. Whether or not you have any respect for authority, doesn't matter. There are times we go after rapists, murders, etc...and need the absolute fastest method under the sun to surprise them.

There is no part of being in law enforcement that makes it ok to get hurt. No one signs up to die or get hurt, regardless of what you may believe.

carebear
January 12, 2006, 04:30 AM
That'd be great, except no-knocks are being used for simple search warrants now. There is no evidence (especially drug) worth even a 1% risk of mistake to an innocent (non-convicted of the charge the evidence is being sought for is innocent) citizen.

For hostage rescue? Certainly.

For high-risk arrest warrant service on a parole violator (has been convicted of the crime at hand)? Probably, though tactically there might be a safer way outside the guy's home ground.

To seize evidence? Never.

Optical Serenity
January 12, 2006, 04:33 AM
Carebear,
Around these neck of the woods getting a no-knock for simple evidence collection is impossible at best. It has a to be a very serious case otherwise the judge will think we are out of our minds...

Phyphor
January 12, 2006, 04:57 AM
Possibly -- though hardly anyone knows what a warrant should look like, can at least tell them to wait while calling the local PD to inquire if their people are out witht hat warrant. Keep the hand on the claymore switch until they confirm :D

What do you think: keep the sub-caption or ditch it?

Lose it,

(oh, and I so wish claymores were legal for home usage. :evil: "What, you've got Brinks security? Well, I've got Claymore! Yea, no stupid phonecall asking 'Are you all right?'... instead, they ask 'Do we need to bring the mops and buckets?')

Phyphor
January 12, 2006, 05:00 AM
If I saw that outside my door, I'd jump back and start negotiating. "Wait there until I call the police station and verify that you're legit. I am armed and if you attempt to enter I will open fire." I would then take cover and draw a bead on the door (probably with a 12 ga) while I call 911. What would the likely response be? It seems to me if they were gangbangers they would leave. If they were really cops I imagine tear gas and flashbangs would come crashing through windows.

....followed swiftly by an entry team, maybe.

Or they might just back off, surround the joint, and start negotiating. If that were the case, odds are, you'd come out alive (assuming you acted rationally at this point, ) but I suspect you might have a few legal issues... :what:

(I just don't see LEOs taking a threat like that lying down, ya know? Even though the homeowner would be in the right to do as you said.... )

LAK
January 12, 2006, 06:05 AM
I like Oleg's photo. Some of the regular ads for lights and other gear in the rack rags featuring suited and hooded folk with guns make this point very well too.
----------------------------

http://ussliberty.org
http://ssunitedstates.org

Janitor
January 12, 2006, 09:11 AM
Oleg -

First off - amazingly strong shot. Love the light. Somebody above suggested a balaclava rather than the hat. I think the hat is perfect - you want the dark man in the shadows to look like an LEO.

While I really like the 2nd version of the caption at the bottom better than the first, I'd still lose it. The inclusion of an answer feels so much like the way Hollywood 'dumbs down' movies for their American audience.

I think your thoughts come across painfully clearly with just the photo and the primary text. It's a scary photo - the question w/o an answer is (IMNSHO) more frigtening.
-

(BTW - Is that Robert in the photo?)

Geno
January 12, 2006, 09:11 AM
He needs to look more crack-headish. :) This guy in the photo is too clean-cut.

Doc2005 :D

Kodiaz
January 12, 2006, 09:27 AM
Oleg the second caption is a lot better.

To all the guys who don't want the caption. America has dumbed down if the caption isnt there the average person is going to look at that and say it advocates shooting cops. You have to take into account the "it can't happen to me mentality". This poster isn't targeted at us it's targeted at people that are in condition white. If you were in condition white and saw the poster that guy would automatically be a cop.

Working Man
January 12, 2006, 09:44 AM
Anyone remember hearing about the group of 8 in Dallas last year that claimed
to be Police/SWAT, gained access to the home, and smacked a grandmother
around with a shotgun? I believe their shirts said either SWAT or Police in bold
white print and they had caps with shield emblems on them.

I remember hearing about others as well, but none were no-knock.

But it does happen....

If someone comes crashing through my door or window, I'll do my best to send
them back through that door or window.

Janitor
January 12, 2006, 09:49 AM
You have to take into account the "it can't happen to me mentality". This poster isn't targeted at us it's targeted at people that are in condition white.
D##n!

I hate to concede my points so quickly. I keep on losing sight of the fact that we're not the audience. That I find the photo scary by itself doesn't mean the sheep in the house across the street would.

Ok. You're right. Keep it dumb.
-

Herself
January 12, 2006, 09:49 AM
Doc, there's no shortage of clean-cut crooks. I certainly wish telling the baddies from the good guys was always a matter of grooming and deportment, but it's not. And a fellow in a hat behind a bright light, dressed in tactical black, doesn't have to be very groomed to look civilized enough to pass for an officer at first blush.


Optical Serenity: did you read the AP article from the Indianapolis Star I posted to the earlier, related thread? In it, a Detroit LEO testifies to his routinely entering the homes of suspects unannounced and without a warrant. That's the level of abuse of position we're seeing. If the police and judges where you live have more of a clue than that, great; they're not that bad where I live, either. But they are out there; it does happen. The culture of LEOs is no more uniform across the States than culture is in general, possibly even less so.

There is no part of being in law enforcement that makes it ok to get hurt. No one signs up to die or get hurt, regardless of what you may believe.
I don't think it is okay to get hurt -- not the police, and not civilians, either. But just as electrocution and RF burns are a known and non-zero probablility part of my job, "dieing or getting hurt" is a part of yours. We each do what we can to minimize the risk but not all factors are under our control.

Police do sign up to stand between decent folk and baddies. It's not safe work. Perhaps you should have become an insurance actuary instead, if you were looking for something non-dangerous. Our legal traditions and the laws based on them assume the innocence of the accused, which does place LEOs at greater risk than they are in places where the accused are deemed guilty until proven otherwise. There's no getting around it; your suspects are a subset of those you've sworn to protect until proven guilty in court.

Anyone who kicks in my door without warning has put himself (or herself) at grave risk. I don't give a darn if it's Mother Theresa and the President arm in arm with Santa Claus and the local police chief: if they rush me, they will face fire. No-knock raids and home invasions are both based on not giving the subject time to make any but the most hasty of decisions and thus I am not risking being robbed, raped and murdered just to make you feel safer breaking into my house. You've got no right to kick in my door, sworn officer or not.

--Herself

1911 guy
January 12, 2006, 10:04 AM
Two, I believe, dealt with this same situation in Legal and Political very recently. So it does happen. Optical Serenity may comer from a Dept. that keeps it's house in order, but many in America do not. Between home invasions in disguise and botched warrants, we who are paying attention are worried.

Good poster, Oleg. The only change I'd make has been mentioned, adjusting the lighting so more detail is obscured, only the markings on the hat legible. All else a shadow.

Peet
January 12, 2006, 10:34 AM
(snip)
But there are levels to this. A traffic pull-over, the odds favor it being a real cop,
(snip)
--HerselfDon't be too sure of that...

http://www.masslive.com/springfield/republican/index.ssf?/base/news-0/1123400938185440.xml&coll=1

http://www.masslive.com/springfield/republican/index.ssf?/base/news-0/1123573888149601.xml&coll=1

After the arrest, a couple more folks stepped forward and ID'ed him as the "police officer" that had performed a "stop" on them. Blue lights and all.

This is one town over from me - kinda makes me paranoid. (Of course it's not like I am not already paranoid :uhoh:, this just makes it worse.)

Peet

DunedinDragon
January 12, 2006, 11:03 AM
I don't know ANY police officers (myself included) that have ever wanted citizens unarmed. At least not here in Georgia...but I've been all over the country and haven't seen it. For some reason people here are infatuated with cop-bashing...:rolleyes:

Oleg, no offense, but what is your deal with these anti cop posters? Can you please point me to the articles and what not that show how this situation occurs everyday?

Lets start telling people that ANY TIME a person is in uniform, they should question it. They should call 911, call the pentagon, CIA, the Associated Press, and the Interpol, and try to figure out if for sure this person is a police officer. In fact, people should carry around biometric readers in their wallets that prove you are a police officer? I don't get it...

Here's a couple of references for you:

---The legend of Corey Maye---
http://www.theagitator.com/archives/025962.php#025962

--or these---

Minister Dies As Cops Raid Wrong Apartment
By Joseph Mallia and Maggie Mulvihill

A 75-year-old retired minister died of a heart attack last night after struggling with 13 heavily armed Boston Police officers who stormed the wrong Dorchester apartment in a botched drug raid.

The Rev. Accelyne Williams struggled briefly when the raiding officers, some of them masked and carrying shotguns, subdued and handcuffed him, then he collapsed, police said.

Williams, a retired Methodist minister, was pronounced dead of cardiac arrest at 4 p.m. yesterday at Carney Hospital said hospital spokesman William Henderson.

There is a likelihood or possibility that we did hit the wrong apartment, said Police Commissioner Paul Evans at a news conference last night. If that's the case, then there will be an apology.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Officer, Retiree Killed In Bogus Raid
Sacramento Bee

When Manuel Medina Ramirez, a 63-year-old retired golf course groundskeeper, was routed from his slumber at 2 AM by armed men breaking down the door of his modest Stockton, CA. home, he instinctively reached for his bedside pistol.

Shooting into the darkness, he brought one of the men down; the others returned fire, and Ramirez was shot dead in front of his son and daughter, who had also been awakened.

The armed men turned out to be a Stockton police anti drug team who had obtained a warrant for the house after a friend of the Ramirez family was found with marijuana in his car and gave the police the Ramirez address as his own.

He died not knowing they were police officers, said Maria Ramirez, the victim's 23-year-old daughter. She said that her father had allowed the friend to use his address to get a driver's license.

The officers claim they had identified themselves, but Maria says her father spoke poor English and couldn't understand them. No drugs were found in the house.

These were very quiet people, said a neighbor. I never saw anything going on that could indicate drugs at all.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



DEA Agents Beat Innocent Women In Wrong House Raid
Denver Post

A Colorado woman was hospitalized after eight DEA agents forced open her door, cursed her, and beat her to the ground before realizing they were at the wrong house.

Daniel Thomas, the man they were really after, was later charged with amphetamine manufacture.

The Jefferson County DA has not commented on whether charges will be brought against the agents.

In a letter to the DA, Wheat Ridge Mayor Ray Winger wrote that drug manufacturers must be controlled but not by people who cannot even get the address for the raid correct.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



Akron Drug Squad Busts Down Wrong Door
Akron Beacon Journal

A 32-year-old mom and her three young kids were terrorized when a gang of black-clad men knocked down their front door and rushed into their apartment.

Only when the family was lying on the floor at gunpoint did the mom, identified only as Joyce, recognize the intruders as Akron police officers.

I never heard them identify themselves, Joyce says. All I saw were black uniforms, helmets and guns.

The officers from the Akron Police Department Street Narcotic Uniform Detail shortly realized that the address on the warrant was incorrect.

It didn't look like any drug house, says unit leader Lt. Harold Craig.


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------



NYPD Terror Raid On Woman's Apartment
NY Daily News

Sylvia Romero, 20, a pre-med student at New York's Fordham University, and her sister Elsa, who is on medication for a nervous disorder, were sprayed in the face with Mace, strip-searched, handcuffed, and made to lie on the floor as 15 plainclothes housing police ransacked their Bronx apartment in a surprise raid.

As I approached the door, they were banging it down, says Romero. I asked what was going on. Through the crack they sprayed me in the face with Mace.

Romero says the officers wore civilian clothes and did not identify themselves.

When she asked what was happening, one cop shouted, Bitches shut the ???? up!

The sisters were dragged from the apartment, sobbing and handcuffed, but were released when no contraband was found.

Fred Fuller
January 12, 2006, 11:18 AM
"Friends" don't kick in your door...

lpl/nc

CAS700850
January 12, 2006, 12:12 PM
Okay, I've bit my tongue for a bit, and I'm stopping. The purpose of the no-knock warrant is the protection of the officers. Why? If they stand at the front door, knock and announce as required, then wait the appropriate period of time, what's the bad guy doing on the other side? Best case, he's destroying evidence. Worse case, he's preparing to repel the attack, loading weapons, taking cover, etc. Worst case, he starts firing through the front door.

In elevn years as a prosecutor, I have authorized 1 no knock warrant, in the case of a crack dealer. Covert video showed an AK-47 type rifle next to the couch by the front door, and the dealer with a pistol in his waistband. Every buy was the same. And, the guy had a prior conviction for Assault on a Police Officer.

If no knock warrants were as common as some might think, judging by these threads, I might be in agreement. But a flat out prohibition isn't necessary, or even appropriate.

Think of it this way. You're in your home when the bad guys come in. You know that they are armed. Should you be forced to leave cover and shout warinings to them? Why should we expect officers to do so?

DunedinDragon
January 12, 2006, 12:28 PM
Okay, I've bit my tongue for a bit, and I'm stopping. The purpose of the no-knock warrant is the protection of the officers. Why? If they stand at the front door, knock and announce as required, then wait the appropriate period of time, what's the bad guy doing on the other side? Best case, he's destroying evidence. Worse case, he's preparing to repel the attack, loading weapons, taking cover, etc. Worst case, he starts firing through the front door.

In elevn years as a prosecutor, I have authorized 1 no knock warrant, in the case of a crack dealer. Covert video showed an AK-47 type rifle next to the couch by the front door, and the dealer with a pistol in his waistband. Every buy was the same. And, the guy had a prior conviction for Assault on a Police Officer.

If no knock warrants were as common as some might think, judging by these threads, I might be in agreement. But a flat out prohibition isn't necessary, or even appropriate.

Think of it this way. You're in your home when the bad guys come in. You know that they are armed. Should you be forced to leave cover and shout warinings to them? Why should we expect officers to do so?

I would tend to agree with you if every jurisdiction was the same, but they're not. Now, if all prosecutors and officers pursuing a no-knock warrant understand and accept that they will be criminally charged by federal prosecutors (since this entails constitutional rights) for any consequences that are a direct result of their negligence in the authorization or serving of the warrant, I'd be much less concerned about them. If they are diligent, as they are in your jurisdiction, they have no reason to be concerned about such a thing. If they're not, then they'd have reason to worry.

1911 guy
January 12, 2006, 12:31 PM
These threads have shown (see news articles above) that the police sometimes do not do their jobs in ensuring everything is in order. Every story quoted by DunedinDragon, with bibliography I might add, shows a pattern of slipshod work when serving these warrants. If every warrant were served on the intended party, this would be a non-issue. However, because we are expected to shut up and take it when those with any kind of authority make a mistake, some of us feel a need to speak up.

taliv
January 12, 2006, 12:49 PM
just to clarify...

police are here to protect us, not the other way around. disarming the populace would make it much safer for police, but that's unacceptable. warrantless searches would make their job much easier too.

nobody said it was a safe or easy job. the difficult position we put them in is why they deserve our respect and appreciation.

Henry Bowman
January 12, 2006, 12:50 PM
Why should we expect officers to do so?With all due respect, Chris, because they are agents of the state and they are not in their home. They are in someone else's home, which is Constitutionally protected from unreasonable search and seizure. They (presumably) are not entering to save a life in jeopardy. They are entering to arrest a person and seize evidence solely for the purpose of charging them with a crime.

The number of no-knock warrants issued may vary greatly in other jurisdictions outside of central Ohio. I have not heard of any problems down here, but I have heard of problems elsewhere.

mrmeval
January 12, 2006, 01:30 PM
Find out what police organizations support HCI.

Cops have the power to kill under color of law and some pretty powerful protections against criminal prosecution that a citizen does not have.

I don't recall one cop locally who killed someone and the case got past the grand jury. The grand jury is controlled by the prosecutor. That is another layer of protection.

We're looking at something good happening here. The Sheriff's department and city police may merge. Since the Sheriff is the highest LEO in the county and elected, a measure of control will return to the citizens if this passes.

If cops names were put on a ballot and a 'keep or kan' mark was placed by them that would at least allow local citizens to take out the trash from time to time. Wish we could do that with all the unelected cruft.

I don't know ANY police officers (myself included) that have ever wanted citizens unarmed. At least not here in Georgia...but I've been all over the country and haven't seen it. For some reason people here are infatuated with cop-bashing...:rolleyes:

Oleg, no offense, but what is your deal with these anti cop posters? Can you please point me to the articles and what not that show how this situation occurs everyday?

Lets start telling people that ANY TIME a person is in uniform, they should question it. They should call 911, call the pentagon, CIA, the Associated Press, and the Interpol, and try to figure out if for sure this person is a police officer. In fact, people should carry around biometric readers in their wallets that prove you are a police officer? I don't get it...

ngray
January 12, 2006, 01:44 PM
Cop or Crook?

Assuming that SWAT wasn't clearly visible across the forehead, how about:

My son's friends pulling a prank on him in the middle of the night.
My son pulling a prank in the middle of the night.
My son walking around with a flashlight because the power's off.
Any number of other explainable situations.

I don't see how the SWAT ballcap removes my moral burden to identify my target before shooting. If you're truly concerned about this, perhaps a dog or exterior door-opening chimes are in order.

Pilgrim
January 12, 2006, 02:17 PM
Lets start telling people that ANY TIME a person is in uniform, they should question it. They should call 911, call the pentagon, CIA, the Associated Press, and the Interpol, and try to figure out if for sure this person is a police officer. In fact, people should carry around biometric readers in their wallets that prove you are a police officer? I don't get it...
I once had to serve a Writ of Possession (eviction) on some really difficult people. They fought the eviction from day one. On the chosen day, I had a couple of uniformed deputy sheriffs with me. They refused to open the door.

The biggest deputy was authorized to kick in the door as I did not want to put an unarmed locksmith in front of the door. When we gained entry, the residents were on the phone to the police department, screaming that their home was being invaded. Anticipating this, I had already called the police department beforehand and told them what the Sheriff was doing at that address.

It was rather humorous to hear the police tell the residents, "It's Ok, they're really sheriff's deputies."

Pilgrim

CAS700850
January 12, 2006, 02:54 PM
Let me say this up front. I have never believed, nor shall I, that LEO's are above the law. If I was inclined to share my real name with you, you could look up the cases where I have prosecuted officers, and more importantly where I have been cited for traffic offenses and plead to the actual citation (no plea bargain) depite actually being an LEO. I believe, as does my boss, that an LEO who commits a crime should actually be punished more severly than the average person, because of their position as an LEO.

So, if a cop screws up and raids the wrong house due to his recklessness or negligence, line him up for trial. But, don't take a useful tool away from the officers who actually follow the law.

Right now, to get a search warrant in this jurisdiction, a cop must present his case to a prosecutor for review before a judge will even consider it. By policy, we require the actual investigating officer to be the affiant. And, the affiant must have personal knowledge of the location to be searched. As further protection against these problems, we require a physical description of the location to be included in the warrant and supporting affidavit. And, the affiant must participate in serving the warrant. Why so much? To minimize the risk of an innocent loation being subject to a search warrant.

Perhaps I'm being naive due to the circumstances we have here. But I cannot help but see an interesting parallel here. We would all agree that the vast majority of gun owners are good people who do not commit criminal acts with their guns. Yet, when someone does use a gun for a criminal act, teh gun control people seek to ban them all. We would also agree that there are some instances of police screwing up with no knock warrants, which (you may have to trust me on this) make up a small percentage of the no-knock warrants which are executed, yet many seek to ban them all.

Mousegun
January 12, 2006, 03:01 PM
I totally agree that identification that is comfortable to YOU should be in order. That may mean calling 911 to confirm but if the warrant is real (and probably mistaken in our case), the boys may not want to wait and forcible entry may come next. Now what do you do?

This may sound simplistic but if you requested to see a police car or even an unmarked "light-up", it would provide a stronger case on the side of legitimacy. I doubt that bad guys would go to the point of having a full set up like that.

That may be an alternative to making them wait while you make the call. Just a thought.

TallPine
January 12, 2006, 03:16 PM
We would all agree that the vast majority of gun owners are good people who do not commit criminal acts with their guns. Yet, when someone does use a gun for a criminal act, teh gun control people seek to ban them all. We would also agree that there are some instances of police screwing up with no knock warrants, which (you may have to trust me on this) make up a small percentage of the no-knock warrants which are executed, yet many seek to ban them all.
Sorry, but that's not an equivalent comparison between an inert piece of property and a violent aggressive act. I can visualize situations where the latter might be necessary (hostage situation, escaped fugitive, etc) but never just to preserve drug evidence (as a number of LEO members have in the past stated as a legitimate reason for "no-knocks").

The fact is that "no-knocks" on wrong addresses do occur, even if rare. Heck, home invasions of any sort are pretty rare (other than mice and termites;) ) but most of us are still prepared for that possibility.

Sometimes even the "right" address (as listed on the warrant) can be the "wrong" address in reality, due to misinformation or incorrect assumptions (as evidenced by some of the cases cited by another poster). It may not happen in your jurisdiction, but it still does happen.:(

Oleg Volk
January 12, 2006, 03:23 PM
I don't mind no-knocks (or outright shooting to stop and, incidentally, kill the perp) BUT only for hostage situations and similar instances.

CAS700850
January 12, 2006, 04:09 PM
Okay, we may be talking apples and oranges here, so to speak, In Ohio, we have three types of search warrants. Daytime warrants, which only require P.C. as to the presence of contraband or evidence, and may be served only during daytime hours. Nighttime warrants, which require the P.C. plus reasonable cause to believe that the evidence would be destroyed or contaminated by delay. Then there are the no-knock warrants, which require not only P.C., but reasonable cause to believe that the execution of the warrant poses a significant threat to the safety of any person executing the warrant. There are a whole list of requirements regarding how one seeks a no-knock warrant, what evidence must be presented to the issueing judge, and additional verification of the address.

Based on Oleg's last posting, I presume that in some places, the risk to the evidence justifies the no-knock warrant. Here, it's all about officer safety. Risk to the evidence doesn't do anything but get me a knock warrant after dark.

engineer151515
January 12, 2006, 04:22 PM
just to clarify...

police are here to protect us, not the other way around....



Actually,the United States government owes a duty to protect the public in general, but owes no legal duty to protect any particular person. Exceptions to the no-duty rule apply when the police have expressly promised to protect a specific person from an identifiable danger.


Since you are forced to protect yourself from crime, and no-knocks in some cases cannot be distinguished from criminal attacks, should you be prosecuted if you make a mistaken identification? I guess that is a case-by-case determination.

CAS700850
January 12, 2006, 04:30 PM
Now isn't that an interesting thought. On trial for shooting officer, and evidence is that officer had no significant identification showing, or something similar. Can mistaken identification be a defense? Would a reasonable person in that position feel endgangered by an armed man breaking into his home in the darkness of night, screaming and brandishing a weapon? For those of us who do not lead criminal lives, we would not expect it to be LEO's coming through the door.

What an interesting thought. Prior record would show that you've never been arrested/convicted of a crime. You're home with a family. You work a legal occupation. You legally own the gun. You're in your nightclothes (if dressed). Assuming truth in testimony and honest police work/prosecution (no jokes :D ), it would be interesting to see what a jury would do. may just acquit, or at leat hang.

Smurfslayer
January 12, 2006, 04:37 PM
I think that there is a good case to be made for no knock warrants.


IN NAZI GERMANY.


Let's put the shoe on the other foot

As an LEO, if you raid the wrong house, you won't mind then if a group of angry neighborhood citizens follows you home, busts down your door and holds you at gun point just to be sure it was _you_ who raided the wrong house?

Of course, they won't kill you, or your family, because they're good citizens, only wanting to teach a lesson to a wrongdoer... but you and your family won't know that, will you?


For some perspective, we should ask the Branch Davidians about this topic...

itgoesboom
January 12, 2006, 04:57 PM
So, if a cop screws up and raids the wrong house due to his recklessness or negligence, line him up for trial. But, don't take a useful tool away from the officers who actually follow the law.




The big question though is, if someone busts my door down in the middle of the night, how do I know he is a cop and not a gang banger?(And yes, bangers have done similar entries nearby recently.)

So if I respond as if it is a gangbanger, and shoot the intruder, then I get charged with murder for killing an officer, even if they made the mistake and broke down the door of the wrong house.

Thats if the other officers don't shoot and kill me first.

Prosecuting the officer who broke down my door won't matter since I will be dead or rotting in jail.

I.G.B.

magyvor
January 12, 2006, 04:58 PM
Thinks that right or wrong...if it happens to you.......

Here is what I think is going to happen. People come barging in your front door. They are screaming and yelling "DOWN POLICE SEARCH WARRANT DOWN DONT MOVE DONT MOVE DOWN POLICE POLICE DONT MOVE............."

Ok, so you have 2 options. 1 is that you dont have time to even wake up, or just plain react even if you are awake, so you end up on the floor handcuffed and you have to hope if it is the police that they figure out that they made a mistake. If it isnt the police, your SCREWED..period. 2 is that you have time to react and you attempt to protect yourself, you open fire at the hostile forces....now, if its not the police, you have a chance, a good chance I think, that the invaders are going to turn tale and leave as quickly as possible. If it is the police, you are going to be DEAD. 4+ officers geared up to serve a no-knock have someone shooting at them, oh yeah...your in BIG trouble.

So, who knows....I just have to believe that living a life as an honest citizen will give me the best odds of just that...living. If I have time, I have, and will use my guns to protect myself and loved ones, and stop any threat that threatens us. I can only hope I survive the outcome if it happens.

my .02 cents

RandyC
January 12, 2006, 05:01 PM
I think Oleg and I are particularly sensitive to this no-knock issue because of a tragic incident just a few months ago over in the next county.

Their SWAT team (and I use the term very loosely) broke into the wrong home and killed an elderly man who had grabbed a shotgun to protect his family.

A rare incident, I'm sure, but it happened close to home and it sure makes you think.

The argument, once again, isn't about whether it should ever be done but rather when it is a justified police action. Don't think cop bashing was ever intended at all.

Gentleman ... as you were.

NineseveN
January 12, 2006, 05:24 PM
A few of these happening:

Arizona Department of Public Safety - page 7:
http://www.azdps.gov/digest/DataFile.asp?FileID=221

Las Vegas -Third Story Down
http://www.reviewjournal.com/lvrj_home/2000/Dec-15-Fri-2000/news/15043076.html

Partial Story from San Diego:
http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_go1993/is_200211/ai_n7275779


Oh, and Canada too (I found quite a few from Canada):
http://www.nsnews.com/issues00/w041700/focus.html

There were also a few reported in Dallas, Texas this year I believe, I cannot find the links right now though. Add those to the others already listed in this thread.

As for the so-called "moral duty to verify your target":

To me, that's moral duty #2, #1 is to meet force with force and try to survive and protect my loved ones. When in doubt, there is no doubt. Bashing my door in at any hour, uninvited, verifies you as a real and credible threat in my mind. I will shoot. My friends and family know better than to play a prank like that on me, and I know better than to do it to them either. If you come through my door uninvited, there will be gunfire.

Add weapons and multiple people yelling and rushing in, that multiplies the level of threat I will perceive.


Great poster Oleg.

buzz_knox
January 12, 2006, 05:27 PM
I think Oleg and I are particularly sensitive to this no-knock issue because of a tragic incident just a few months ago over in the next county.

Their SWAT team (and I use the term very loosely) broke into the wrong home and killed an elderly man who had grabbed a shotgun to protect his family.

A rare incident, I'm sure, but it happened close to home and it sure makes you think.

The argument, once again, isn't about whether it should ever be done but rather when it is a justified police action. Don't think cop bashing was ever intended at all.

Gentleman ... as you were.

I thought it was a year or so ago and it was found that the cops said it was a gun, but it was actually a cane. Or is that a different case?

Drewcat
January 12, 2006, 05:27 PM
:cuss:

For some reason every time I check out an Oleg thread there's no picture. Is there anyone who can help me out with this?

cosine
January 12, 2006, 05:31 PM
In Tools, under Internet Options, go to the Advanced tab, scroll down to the Multimedia heading and see if you have the "Show Pictures" box checked.

Drewcat
January 12, 2006, 06:34 PM
Thanks Cosine, but I've go that checked and it still doesn't work. I can see other people's pictures when they attach them, but for some reason Oleg's never show up.

I apologize for hi-jacking the thread for technical babysitting.

Sindawe
January 12, 2006, 06:40 PM
NineseveN, your Vegal and San Diego links are broken.

NineseveN
January 12, 2006, 06:50 PM
NineseveN, your Vegal and San Diego links are broken.

Links fixed. Sorry.

Kodiaz
January 12, 2006, 09:04 PM
The extra large hole in the front of that shotgun removes my burden. I'm no criminal I go to work and live a moderately low cost life. Like I say to my aunt's husband whenever he starts busting my chops "If you were in jail this or that"(he was locked up). I say I work all day I have a little car I have 2 kayaks and my idea of a good time is either going to the range or getting chased by sharks. Only a total fool would look at me and the way I live and say that guy is a drug dealer(I'm not). So if someone is kicks in my door they will be shot by whatever happens to be on HD that night. Because there is absolutely no reason for the SWAT team to show up at my house unless I'm calling the police to shut up my really loud neighbors. C'mon wake up unless your selling drugs out of your house would you really think some clown busting the door is a cop. And your making me look like I was wrong saying this poster is meant for people in condition white or are you in condition white.

Hey Oleg you might want to change gangbanger to criminal. Gangbangers are less likely to look like the average joe.

Oh BTW when I was in high school a long time ago and I would get into a fight (bad part of NJ) I would haul butt to the nearest library clean up and stick my face in a book. I only got caught once because the other kid ratted me out. I'm no bully I never started it.

Johnny_Yuma
January 12, 2006, 09:42 PM
Exactly. There is no opportunity to check ID's and look at a warrant when someone is bursting through your door/windows with a rifle pointed at you and your family. :uhoh:


BTW Oleg, that's a good one.

examine the warrant and check IDs on just about any warrant, knock-and-announce or no-knock. This is going to rile some of you guys up but we don't ask for permission when we have a warrant. We make entry, secure the premises, and then go through the paperwork with the occupants. I've had subjects want to stand in the doorway and argue with us or demand to read the warrant before letting us in the house and they all were quickly controlled and cuffed. Some got arrested for interferring with the execution of the warrant.

A search warrant is an order from a judge to the executing officers to go and search a place, not to go and please beg the owner's permission, may we please, if it's not too much trouble, pretty please, tear your house apart looking for dope, body parts, kiddie porn, etc.

If this is a concern for some members on this board, please do not engage in any criminal activity and you probably won't have to worry about the cops searching your house! Sheesh! If you are an innocent person and that cops in your town hit the wrong houses frequently enough for you to spend one second worrying about this issue, you need to move.:rolleyes: The number of actual no-knock warrants that are executed is very small. The number of wrong houses hit is very small. The odds of executing a no-knock on the wrong house are miniscule. I would spend more time planning how you are going to spend the lottery winnings or worrying about getting hit by lightning that worrying about this.

Great photography and layouts on the posters, by the way. I just think that the effort is misdirected.

Take care,

JY

mustanger98
January 12, 2006, 10:31 PM
Anyone remember hearing about the group of 8 in Dallas last year that claimed
to be Police/SWAT, gained access to the home, and smacked a grandmother
around with a shotgun? I believe their shirts said either SWAT or Police in bold
white print and they had caps with shield emblems on them.

I recall reading of a similar incident in Houston. The perps claimed to be cops, busted in the doors like an entry team, and murdered all family members present including an elderly man in a wheelchair.

Flyboy
January 12, 2006, 11:34 PM
I don't see how the SWAT ballcap removes my moral burden to identify my target before shooting.
Neither do I see how the SWAT ballcap removes the officers' moral duty to identify their target before entering.

Here's another point to consider:
http://www.foxnews.com/story/0,2933,181251,00.html
Awaken Woozy? Study Likens Morning Grogginess to Intoxication
Wednesday, January 11, 2006
By Miranda Hitti


Got a decent amount of sleep last night? Even so, your mental skills still might not have been all that sharp first thing this morning.

It’s that woozy time when your eyes are open, but you’re not exactly alert. All things being equal, you might rather roll over and hit the snooze button than put your feet on the floor and start the day. According to a new study, your brain's ability to function during those first waking moments may be as impaired as if you'd been drinking.

Sleep experts call that feeling “sleep inertia.” Everyone else calls it grogginess. Now, a small new study shows it’s far from your brain’s finest hour.

The brief report, published as a research letter in The Journal of the American Medical Association, comes from researchers including Kevin Wright, PhD, of the Sleep and Chronobiology Laboratory at the University of Colorado at Boulder.

“For a short period, at least, the effects of sleep inertia may be as bad as or worse than being legally drunk,” Wright says in a news release.

How Much Sleep Do You Really Need?
Wake-Up Call

Wright’s small study included eight men and one woman. They were about 29 years old, on average, and were paid for their participation.

None had sleep disorders. They also hadn’t recently crossed time zones or done shift work.

For three weeks, participants got eight hours of nightly sleep at home. They also avoided alcohol, medications, nicotine, recreational drugs, and caffeine during that time.

Next, participants spent a week at a sleep lab. For the first six nights, they got eight hours of sleep following their normal bedtimes.

During the days, participants spent some time adding double-digit numbers together. They weren’t just killing time. That adding skill was supposed to come in handy later on.

Sleep Drugs: None Stands Out as Best

Pop Quiz

After the sixth night at the lab, participants were woken up after eight hours of sleep. Immediately, they took an adding test.

There was no hemming and hawing, no dawdling over coffee or the newspaper. Instead, the day started abruptly, with the math test starting within seconds of waking.

Participants fumbled and stumbled through the test, performing much worse than usual. After about 20 minutes to an hour, their performance was closer to normal.

Then, participants were kept up for 26 hours straight at the lab. Right afterward, they took another addition test. Math scores were better after the all-nighter than immediately after eight hours of sleep.

“These were very healthy people who had performed the test hundreds of times, making the results even more profound,” Wright says in the news release.

What Kind of Sleeper Are You?

Grogginess Like Drunkenness

Other researchers have equated sleep inertia, or morning grogginess, to being drunk, write Wright and colleagues.

Many people can delay mental challenges for a few minutes while their brains get up to speed.

But some people, like doctors, soldiers, and emergency workers, have to be ready to go at a moment’s notice, Wright’s team notes.

The adding test challenged short-term memory, counting skills, and speedy thinking. The brain’s prefrontal cortex handles those skills, along with problem solving, complex thinking, and emotions.

In short, workers who must be at the top of their game at the drop of a hat can’t afford a groggy prefrontal cortex.

Sleep Dos & Don'ts

Give Me a Moment … or More?

Sleep inertia doesn’t last long, with “severe” performance problems lasting three minutes, write the researchers.

They note that in other studies, “severe” performance problems have lasted up to 10 minutes, with detectable glitches present for at least two hours after waking.

Their study was small, and people don’t normally do math first thing in the morning, so the researchers call for more studies of sleep inertia.

The goal: Learn how bad it really is and how to handle those morning moments when duty calls but the brain can’t quite keep up.

By Miranda Hitti, reviewed by Louise Chang, MD

SOURCES: Wertz, A. The Journal of the American Medical Association, Jan. 11, 2006; vol 295: pp 163-164. News release, University of Colorado at Boulder.

"Severe" performance problems for the first three minutes. If somebody's breaking into my house, I figure I have about three seconds from the time he comes into view until he shoots, especially if he sees that I'm armed. What am I to do?

Oleg Volk
January 12, 2006, 11:37 PM
Not many people are detained without trial lately, either...just a few so far. But many of us think this is a trend and that it needs to be nipped in the bud.

There are three ways to nip it:

1.change the laws -- slow and uncertain, untimately preferable

2.shoot cops who kick in doors -- undesirable for both cops and residents, for obvious reasons

3.convince cops not to kick in doors -- a stop-gap solution, but necessary while the laws are being changed

1911 guy
January 13, 2006, 09:33 AM
Then why are there a dozen links to different instances posted here on this thread? If I as a law abiding homeowner have to worry about sorting the good from the bad in the middle of a 3:00 A.M. gunfight, the police are not doing their jobs. Nor are the judges approving the warrants, the prosecutors compiling paperwork, etc. I fail to see how a warrant can go from observation of address XYZ to a botched invasion of innocent mans home ABC next door without gross negligence. But it has happened and will continue to happen until the S really hits the F when a four or six man team are all killed by a "oops, wrong house" prepared homeowner.

NineseveN
January 13, 2006, 12:16 PM
Then why are there a dozen links to different instances posted here on this thread? If I as a law abiding homeowner have to worry about sorting the good from the bad in the middle of a 3:00 A.M. gunfight, the police are not doing their jobs. Nor are the judges approving the warrants, the prosecutors compiling paperwork, etc. I fail to see how a warrant can go from observation of address XYZ to a botched invasion of innocent mans home ABC next door without gross negligence. But it has happened and will continue to happen until the S really hits the F when a four or six man team are all killed by a "oops, wrong house" prepared homeowner.


"Looks like you broke into the wrong rec room!" :D

TallPine
January 13, 2006, 12:24 PM
This is going to rile some of you guys up but we don't ask for permission when we have a warrant. We make entry, secure the premises, and then go through the paperwork with the occupants. I've had subjects want to stand in the doorway and argue with us or demand to read the warrant before letting us in the house and they all were quickly controlled and cuffed. Some got arrested for interferring with the execution of the warrant.
Well, I'm glad we all got that straight ..... :uhoh:

buzz_knox
January 13, 2006, 12:32 PM
If this is a concern for some members on this board, please do not engage in any criminal activity and you probably won't have to worry about the cops searching your house! Sheesh! If you are an innocent person and that cops in your town hit the wrong houses frequently enough for you to spend one second worrying about this issue, you need to move.:rolleyes:

Sorry, but that's not accurate. I'm as law abiding as they come, but I've had cops knocking at my door three times. Once, because they thought the person they were looking for was the last one to sign up for a blood drive (it wasn't, that was me) and twice because they didn't have the right address when serving a bench warrant (right apartment number, wrong street). So, yes, a law abiding person living in a nice neighborhood has to be concerned about cops mistakenly knocking at their door.

Strings
January 13, 2006, 02:27 PM
There are a large number of cases, when looked at seperate from total number of such warrants issued. When looked at with the total, it's probably a small percentage. That said...

How many is too many? How many lil' old ladies that didn't hear a knock, and almost get flattened at the door? How many three-year-olds held at gunpoint, and screamed at to "get down"? How many 15 year old girls killed in a hail of gunfire on the street? What's the "acceptable number"? All these are actual cases where a no knock or "dynamic stop" were used at a wrong address or used where they shouldn't have been...

I've got a theory about it: many depatrments have some form of SWAT (that's a little more serious than LawDog's group trundling along in a Korean era ambulance). These things cost money to maintain, so they have to be used to justify the expense. Add in some officers that want to be Rambo (I've seen 'em, don't tell me they don't exist), and you've got a recipe for disaster...

Herself
January 13, 2006, 03:02 PM
Okay, we may be talking apples and oranges here, so to speak, In Ohio, we have three types of search warrants. [...] Then there are the no-knock warrants, which require not only P.C., but reasonable cause to believe that the execution of the warrant poses a significant threat to the safety of any person executing the warrant. There are a whole list of requirements regarding how one seeks a no-knock warrant [...]
[...] Here, it's all about officer safety.

I am all for oficer safety. A point I keep trying to get across is that conducting a no-knock raid on my home decreases officer safety, rather than increasing it. If the poilce want to show up with a warrant at whatever time of day, beat on the door until they get my attention, announce themselves, show the the warrant and give me a chance to verify it if I am still doubtful (unlikely), I'll invite them in and would be happy to make coffee or stand quietly by and call my cousin the lawyer.
I am going to have to do some fancy footwork to make everyone comfortable securing the loaded gun that I'll be carrying when I answer the door, but it won't be visible. If that means opening the door and putting my hands up slowly while tellin' the boys there is a firearm in my pocket, that's fine.

On the other hand, if my door gets kicked in and there's no evidence the house is on fire or otherwise in imminent danger, the kicker has about ten seconds to yell "It's me" in a familiar voice to keep me from shooting at his face and center of mass in that order.
If it is a home invasion, shooting first and fast is my only effective defense. And the odds are a lot higher that anyone kicking in my door is a home invader than he is a policeman.

...One fellow suggested a person kicking one's door in "might be a relative or friend playing a joke." In my opinion, people who think that's a joke might be better off shot. Or forcibly raped. It's a real sense-of-humor-affecting experience. :banghead:

--Herself

Herself
January 13, 2006, 03:30 PM
[Won't have a chance to] examine the warrant and check IDs on just about any warrant, knock-and-announce or no-knock. This is going to rile some of you guys up but we don't ask for permission when we have a warrant. We make entry, secure the premises, and then go through the paperwork with the occupants. I've had subjects want to stand in the doorway and argue with us or demand to read the warrant before letting us in the house and they all were quickly controlled and cuffed. Some got arrested for interferring with the execution of the warrant.

The usual sort of warrant service I've seen and heard of, the officer(s) are in uniform, often in a marked vehicle. They knock or ring the bell, introduce themselves by profession, and tell the resident they've got a warrant. The warrant, a fairly distinctive-looking thing, is often held up. That is then followed by "make entry, secure the premises, and then go through the paperwork with the occupants."
No, it's not a lot of warning and it's hardly an interview over tea. But it does give the civilian a little chance to get a handle on what's happening.
A no-knock warrant doesn't allow that chance. And that's what'll get the oficers shot at if they try it at my home.

Most LEOs I have known were reasonable people. In the course of their interaction with citizens suspected of breaking laws, they want compliance with a minimum of friction. But I have found very few of them to react badly to an honest smile, careful movement, and polite talk, even when they were arresting me.* Normal warrant service, I can deal with. Kicking my door in doesn't allow time for any but the most hasty of decisions.

No-knock warrants are dangerous for police. As a homeowner, I have a reasonable expectation of security within my own home. As a law-abiding homeowner, I have no reason to expect the police to show up at my door, let alone batter it open. So the likeliest people to be breaking into my house are criminals. If my home is invaded, I will respond. If rushed, I'll respond in haste. I'd rather die trying to defend myself than die standing like a deer in the headlights.

--Herself
_______________________________
* Here's a tip: if you're in a bar and a bad fight breaks out, it's okay to head for an exit. It is not okay to run headlong into police entering the bar, bounce off them, and keep on running. I mean that. It'll get you run to earth within a block, possibly right in front of your own car. Then you'll get to spend the night in jail for Being An Idiot.

keyhole
January 13, 2006, 04:10 PM
This also to ponder.

There are cops out there that do no justice to the badge. If it makes you feel better, we don't like them either. Cops do make mistakes, sometimes it costs them their lives.
At the rate of one every 50 hours.

geekWithA.45
January 13, 2006, 05:30 PM
Here's my .02 in the issue.

I'm generally a law abiding citizen. I pay my taxes, I don't to anything that might endanger others, and I don't associate with those who do.

That means that anyone implementing something that looks like a "no knock" is massively unlikely to be a legitimate LEO serving a legitimate warrant.

Therefore, by process of elimination, anyone implementing such "no knock" strategies is either

A) An agent of evil, (organized/unorganized/who cares), who needs shootin'.
or
B) A Tragically Mistaken person, who needs motivation to be more scrupulously careful with the powers of Rights Override that we grant. (I can't think of a better motivation for people to not be mistaken in such matters)

Either way, bidirectional gunfire is likely.

geekWithA.45
January 13, 2006, 05:32 PM
Cops do make mistakes, sometimes it costs them their lives.
At the rate of one every 50 hours.

Ummm...where did you get THAT figure? Last time I looked into it, cops dead by gunfire is on the order of 60-70 a YEAR. By far, the most frequent killer of police is MVA, and yet I somehow think you're not talking about them making bad driving choices.

keyhole
January 13, 2006, 06:41 PM
Feel better about one a week? No matter how you cut it, it's too many.


As for bg's-
Very little to deter those who break the law. I see it everyday. As long as the gain outweighs the punishment, those who choose to break laws will do so.

little clearer now?

Herself
January 13, 2006, 06:52 PM
"Think of it as evolution in action." It improves the species, Keyhole.

(Shouldn't that be "ballista" in your .sig Latin?)

--Herself

TMM
January 13, 2006, 06:57 PM
Hey Oleg, excellent picture, but it's a bit dark. could you lighten it so it's easily viewable, but still dark? perhaps give the image a semi-monotone color so it looke like that time of day where there is *just* enough light to see but things are mostly black-and-grey?

i think it would greatly improve the ease of readability...

~TMM

Strings
January 13, 2006, 06:57 PM
>Feel better about one a week? No matter how you cut it, it's too many. Very little to deter those who break the law. I see it everyday. As long as the gain outweighs the punishment.<

Ummm... keyhole? You can take that both directions...

Hawkmoon
January 14, 2006, 12:45 PM
I would

* Eliminate the fine print at the bottom

* Make the "NOW!" larger, to emphasize that you must decide instantly

* Remove the "SWAT" from the baseball cap. If that's a Surefire weapon light, with it shining in your eyes at night you aren't going to be reading what's printed on the guy's hat.

Hawkmoon
January 14, 2006, 12:54 PM
examine the warrant and check IDs on just about any warrant, knock-and-announce or no-knock. This is going to rile some of you guys up but we don't ask for permission when we have a warrant. We make entry, secure the premises, and then go through the paperwork with the occupants. I've had subjects want to stand in the doorway and argue with us or demand to read the warrant before letting us in the house and they all were quickly controlled and cuffed. Some got arrested for interferring with the execution of the warrant.

A search warrant is an order from a judge to the executing officers to go and search a place, not to go and please beg the owner's permission, may we please, if it's not too much trouble, pretty please, tear your house apart looking for dope, body parts, kiddie porn, etc.
Hello?

Agreed a warrant is a court order authorizing you to search. But you think that means you don't have to provide the property owner an opportunity to READ the order of the court? Like, to determine that maybe you're at number 103 Brown Street and you have a warrant to search 103 Broad Street?

I'm very glad I don't live in your town. Your understanding of the law is, I believe, somewhat lacking. I cannot see how asking to read the order before granting admission is in any way "interfering."

And, since YOU raised the issue of tearing houses apart ... what's the deal on that, anyway? Suppose you get a warrant to search my house because my ex-GF made up some story. What you're looking for never existed, so of course you don't find it. Are you going to set my house to rights after conducting your search (fold clothes back in the drawers, hang clothes back int he closet, etc., repair any damage you caused), or do you toss everything, punch holes in the sheet rock, and then walk out with a cheerful "Have a nice day, Citizen"?

pax
January 14, 2006, 01:09 PM
If this is a concern for some members on this board, please do not engage in any criminal activity and you probably won't have to worry about the cops searching your house! Sheesh! If you are an innocent person and that cops in your town hit the wrong houses frequently enough for you to spend one second worrying about this issue, you need to move.
A thought experiment: Here is an honest person and neither he nor any member of his household engages in criminal activity.

If someone knocks over his door and barges into his house, this honest person is going to do his very best to shoot them no matter what they yell as they come in the door. Because he is an honest person, he has no reasonable expectation that the police would invade his home.

As you say, no knocks are rare and mistaken no knocks even more rare. It's just silly of any honest person to worry about being the victim of a mistaken no-knock, so this honest person doesn't worry about it. He simply intends to shoot any invaders.

If this honest person's intent to shoot whomever knocks over his door bothers you, oh honest cop, it is because such stupid and dangerous mistakes aren't rare enough.

End.

pax

The truth is that all men having power ought to be mistrusted. – James Madison

jcims
January 14, 2006, 01:48 PM
Too late to the party, but i just wanted to toss this idea out.

http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=33911&stc=1&d=1137257030

Might make the caption less required to get your point across.

Apologies to you Oleg if gimping your work is taboo...(thought a crop would be less offensive :) And, of course, taking a real photo with suggested hat would look a lot better :))

Flyboy
January 25, 2006, 02:35 AM
If you are an innocent person and that cops in your town hit the wrong houses frequently enough for you to spend one second worrying about this issue, you need to move.
Oh, so close. If I'm innocent, and the cops hit the wrong house frequently enough for me to worry about it, it's time to change the cops!

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