An intruder has broken into my house...


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StrikeFire83
January 12, 2006, 04:17 AM
Okay, hypothetical situation.

I live in a two bedroom apartment with my girlfriend. A bad guy forces entry into my unit, either by breaking a window (I'm on the first floor) or forcing his way through the flimsy front door, and I shoot him at 10-12 feet. Let’s assume this has already occurred.

Now, if I approach the guy and double-tap him in the head, have I just changed the nature of the home invasion? How would the authorities look at a situation like this? Ballistics would surely illustrate two separate bullet trajectories.

I guess the underlying question here is: if someone has broken into your house, and there are people other than yourself inside that you care about more than your own life, are you justified in making sure this person is dead before letting your guard down and calling the authorities?

I got into a pretty heated argument with a good friend over this sort of situation, and would appreciate the input of everybody here.

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ka50
January 12, 2006, 04:26 AM
Okay, hypothetical situation.

I live in a two bedroom apartment with my girlfriend. A bad guy forces entry into my unit, either by breaking a window (I'm on the first floor) or forcing his way through the flimsy front door, and I shoot him at 10-12 feet. Let’s assume this has already occurred.

Now, if I approach the guy and double-tap him in the head, have I just changed the nature of the home invasion? How would the authorities look at a situation like this? Ballistics would surely illustrate two separate bullet trajectories.

I guess the underlying question here is: if someone has broken into your house, and there are people other than yourself inside that you care about more than your own life, are you justified in making sure this person is dead before letting your guard down and calling the authorities?

I got into a pretty heated argument with a good friend over this sort of situation, and would appreciate the input of everybody here.

LOL of course you'll be charged with murder for this.

When a person stops presenting IMMIDEATE deadly threat, he is no longer a threat. Thus if you double tap him after you disabled him, you are technically murdering him.

Unless you are able to convince the jury that he still presented a deadly and immideate threat and ability to carry out this threat, you're in a whole lotta trouble.

odysseus
January 12, 2006, 04:37 AM
Now, if I approach the guy and double-tap him in the head...
??? :uhoh: Please explain in this hypothetical situation of yours, why you feel you would need to take this action?

From what you wrote here, I assume the first shoot stopped the assailant. That's what you are trying to do, STOP an assailant. If the assailant dies because of your attempts to stop his violent attack, well so be it. However if you have stopped him, and then you continue with an action to kill him even though he no longer represents an immediate threat to you, hypothetically as you say, I would think that that would be a very bad shoot.

...that's probably why you are getting into heated arguments on this hypothetical situation.

StrikeFire83
January 12, 2006, 04:42 AM
I guess it would be more prudent to approach the intruder and check for a weapon, and upon not finding on just hold the gun on him whilst I call the police.

It's just that I've heard too many stories/read to many reports of police and private citizens being killed by people they thought they'd incapacitated due to an unseen weapon of some kind.

mnrivrat
January 12, 2006, 04:45 AM
What ka50 said +1

You are only allowed to use force to stop a clear and present danger .

Self defense is one thing - making sure the bad guy is dead is a different thing all together , and rightfully so.

Phyphor
January 12, 2006, 04:55 AM
I guess it would be more prudent to approach the intruder and check for a weapon, and upon not finding on just hold the gun on him whilst I call the police.


Or even better, don't approach the BG, keep your weapon trained on him, and if he reaches for something, then shoot him again. If you approach him to check for weapons, you're in his reach as well, and he might just be ready for that.



It's just that I've heard too many stories/read to many reports of police and private citizens being killed by people they thought they'd incapacitated due to an unseen weapon of some kind.

Sounds more like urban myths than truth. Most BG's flee, stop, or die upon being shot. Normally, they don't play possum for a few minutes, then jump back into the fight (obviously, there's no percentage in such a tactic for the badguy, (from his eyes:you've been shot, wounded, the GG has a gun and has just proven he'll use it, why the hell would you want back in that fight? No matter what, you're going to jail, or the morgue.)

Rancid Bacon
January 12, 2006, 04:55 AM
Cut out the middleman and double tap him to start with.

UWstudent
January 12, 2006, 04:56 AM
honestly this is what i would do...

scream like a girl



not much else i could do unless they're holding a gun as well..

StrikeFire83
January 12, 2006, 04:56 AM
So I guess the concensus has come down that the situation I outlined would be tantamount to execution/murder. About what I expected, and I guess rightfully so.

It's just that there is something almost sacred about the sanctity of one's home, and someone breaking into it, especially at night, is probably one of the worst possible transgressions a person can take against me.

Ovid
January 12, 2006, 05:10 AM
What if the BG falls to the ground, but he is still holding a weapon in his hands?

beerslurpy
January 12, 2006, 11:11 AM
The solution is to make sure he gets hit enough times in the first place. From 10-12 feet away you should be able to hit him in nothing but the head.

rocky
January 12, 2006, 11:18 AM
Why approach at all. If the BG is down keep the weapon on em, and wait for PD. If you stand over someone , ballistic evidence will show approx. what angle and how close you are. Execution is not legal. Better have a position of cover and wait. BG's don't die till they lose enough blood, unless you get a CNS shot.

HankB
January 12, 2006, 11:29 AM
If during the initial encounter the bad guy is shot multiple times, that's just self defense. (DA: "Why did you shoot him five times?" HOMEOWNER: "He was still on his feet and a threat after four.")

Administering a fatal coup-de-grace to a downed assailant is frowned upon, and is virtually certain to land you in legal hot water. A LOT of legal hot water.

I wouldn't approach the bad guy AT ALL - not to kill him, not to search him, not to render assistance (bloodborne pathogens, anyone?) - I'd keep my distance. And if he bled out while I was waiting to calm down enough or have my hearing recover enough to call 911, so be it.

springmom
January 12, 2006, 11:40 AM
So I guess the concensus has come down that the situation I outlined would be tantamount to execution/murder. About what I expected, and I guess rightfully so.

It's just that there is something almost sacred about the sanctity of one's home, and someone breaking into it, especially at night, is probably one of the worst possible transgressions a person can take against me.

You have the right to defend your home in Texas. However, our CHL instructor stated that once the threat is neutralized, you call the police and you also ask for an ambulance You do not want to look like you did more than you needed to. Two to the head? Yeah, that's way more than you needed to in this situation. As somebody else asked why would you want to do this? As bad as it is to have your home broken into, being charged in this case and losing your whole way of life for a moment of punishing the burglar is a lot worse.

Springmom

Lupinus
January 12, 2006, 11:43 AM
Now, if I approach the guy and double-tap him in the head, have I just changed the nature of the home invasion? How would the authorities look at a situation like this? Ballistics would surely illustrate two separate bullet trajectories.

What happens? We visit you on visitors day and give you a cake with a file baked into it cause you my friend are now a murderer. You can only use leathal force to stop a threat you reasonably believe to be a threat to you once he is disabled he is no longer a threat, anything you do after that is assult at best murder at worst. You are better off spending more time at the range and double tapping him in the head to begin with while he is still on his feet.

foghornl
January 12, 2006, 12:05 PM
Now, if I approach the guy and double-tap him in the head,

You have just drowned yourself in "legal boiling oil"


1. DO NOT APPROACH A DOWNED "BG"...EVER. He probably has a weapon you don't see.

2. A double-tap to the head at essentially muzzle-contact distance WILL get you charged with the Highest Level of Murder there is in your state.

Tequila_Sauer
January 12, 2006, 12:13 PM
My pattern of thought on a BG coming into my place is to fire high and as much as I can while still effectively hitting what I'm shooting at, keeping a BUG ready in case I need it (most likely my CZ40).

JAMES77257
January 12, 2006, 12:28 PM
My pattern of thought on a BG coming into my place is to fire high and as much as I can while still effectively hitting what I'm shooting at, keeping a BUG ready in case I need it (most likely my CZ40).

When I got my CCW, I consulted an attorney. He said that any CNS shots will be frowned on by DA. Best advice is two controlled rounds center mass, then assess the situation, If the BG is still a threat one CNS shot would not be un called for. Personally beside my bed there is an 870 police mag, loaded with 1-#6 low base, followed by 1-00 buck, the rest are slugs, my guess is that the "00" will not be needed. Also, when PD arrive, using the word "kill" instead of "stop" will instantly change the self-defense shooting into a murder investigation.

Hope this helps.

boofus
January 12, 2006, 12:36 PM
If he is still holding a weapon of some type it might be defensible.

John Hicks
January 12, 2006, 01:20 PM
Also, when PD arrive, using the word "kill" instead of "stop" will instantly change the self-defense shooting into a murder investigation.

You bring up a good point. What you say is as important as what you did. Words like "stop", "fear", "threat" are good; "kill", "rage", "scumbag" are not so good. The best solution (albeit very difficult I imagine) is to be cooperative, but call a lawyer.

As far as the double-tap, if the scumbag :) wasn't reaching for a weapon or trying to fire a weapon he already had, you are in big trouble. Once the threat ends, you stop shooting. Period.

Tequila_Sauer
January 12, 2006, 01:27 PM
I think you should also blame the gun when talking to cops, kind of like the media does.

"Well, officer I saw the man coming in, and I was wanting to speak with him and inquire as to why he was crawling through my living room window when my gun raised up in my hand and went off."

Colonel
January 12, 2006, 07:48 PM
You want to kill somebody? After they're down and neutralized as a threat? Just for breaking into your house?

Yeah, it's a pretty bad crime, and I'd be p|ssed off too. And if I was if fear for my life I'd shoot the bad guy too. But once he was down, I don't think I'd get any jollies out of zapping him in the head.

I have a sneaky suspicion it would feel like what it was -- murder.

Careful what you wish for...I don't think you'd like it, even if the DA didn't mind.

MatthewVanitas
January 12, 2006, 09:04 PM
I think you should also blame the gun when talking to cops, kind of like the media does.

"Well, officer I saw the man coming in, and I was wanting to speak with him and inquire as to why he was crawling through my living room window when my gun raised up in my hand and went off."

Wouldn't that be Negligent Manslaughter then?

Kurt_M
January 12, 2006, 09:14 PM
No need to approach him once he's down. Call the cops from 10-12 feet, or better yet have your girlfriend do it. Alternatively, you could use a 12 gauge for the first shot making follow up shots a non-issue. :evil:

TrekkieFromHell
January 12, 2006, 09:23 PM
I think you should also blame the gun when talking to cops, kind of like the media does.

"Well, officer I saw the man coming in, and I was wanting to speak with him and inquire as to why he was crawling through my living room window when my gun raised up in my hand and went off."

Thats just your subconscious taking over using its training from all of those violent video games... :neener: :neener:

SomeKid
January 12, 2006, 09:39 PM
The only part of the situation you should assess is if there are any moving intruders.

First one you catch should get the entire mag, step back, reload, check for a second fool.

Trebor
January 12, 2006, 09:48 PM
Dude, you need some realistic training on the use of deadly force before you wind up in prison.

I suggest the NRA Personal Protection in the Home course. The legal section should answer any questions you have and explain why the scenario you described in your post would send you to prison. You should be able to find a course in your area.

If you have the cash, I HIGHLY reccomend Massad Ayoob's LFI 1: The Judicious Use of Deadly Force. I can't think of a better class for a new gun owner.

azredhawk44
January 12, 2006, 09:56 PM
Cut out the middleman and double tap him to start with.

+10.

+30 for shooting to slide stop before he drops his weapon or falls to the ground.

StrikeFire83
January 13, 2006, 01:33 AM
Thanks to everyone for your responses. I can tell now that I was out of line, and taking the aforementioned action would be murder. However, when you are the victim of violence like I have been, you tend to be jumpy and protective of your home and the people who matter to you.

I bought my first handgun on my 21st birthday because less than a year previous somebody tried to car-jack me with a knife, I was slashed, and the person who essentially SAVED my life had a GUN. The guy who came to my aid did NOT shoot the felon, however, and he will be will be up for parole in less than a decade. Here is a picture of my arm, almost 3 years later:

http://img.villagephotos.com/p/2006-1/1129032/Slash.jpg

Do I need proper training? Probably. But right now I've just graduated from college and cannot afford the time/money for that right now. Hopefully I'll get my concealed carry license soon and so that class will further educate me.

Thanks again for all the responses. And because it was underlying in many of your posts, no Iím not a maniac who WANTS to kill. Iím just a normal person who experienced real bodily violence which could have killed me, and so I am very protective of me and mine.

Kurt_M
January 13, 2006, 03:04 AM
I can sympathize with your jumpiness, and am glad that you chose to think this through before a real situation occurs. With no intention of judgement, it sounds as if you have a lot of unresolved issues from your earlier attack, especially if you would consider actions like those you suggested in your first post because of it. It may be beneficial to work those out before they cause you even more trouble. If you can't afford training, then at least read some of the better books on self defense and especially the legal ramifications of it, I'm sure many here can make reccomendations.

StrikeFire83
January 13, 2006, 03:08 AM
I can sympathize with your jumpiness, and am glad that you chose to think this through before a real situation occurs. With no intention of judgement, it sounds as if you have a lot of unresolved issues from your earlier attack, especially if you would consider actions like those you suggested in your first post because of it. It may be beneficial to work those out before they cause you even more trouble. If you can't afford training, then at least read some of the better books on self defense and especially the legal ramifications of it, I'm sure many here can make reccomendations.

Well, if anybody can give me any titles/recs I'd buy a book if it had useful information.

Mark in California
January 13, 2006, 04:38 AM
You will be found guilty of Murder. It will get you a enhancement on your sentence. Possibly the Death Sentence, maybe just Life with out chance of parole. Either way a terrible price for being stupid. Get the firearms training before you get a CCW.

ka50
January 13, 2006, 04:40 AM
Well, if anybody can give me any titles/recs I'd buy a book if it had useful information.

Massad Ayoob's: in the gravest extreme
Massad Ayoob's Combat hungunnery 5th edition

I've seen violence, I've been attacked and intimidated many times. Control of yourself is the first thing you have to learn. Know when you can and can't use the firearm, this way if you HAVE to use it and justified by law to use it, you will be able to use it swiftly and without hesitation. I know how you feel, thus I recommend that you get a pepper spray to handle apparently unarmed individuals on the street, instead of pulling your gun at slightest fear of an assault.

StrikeFire83
January 13, 2006, 04:58 AM
Massad Ayoob's: in the gravest extreme
Massad Ayoob's Combat hungunnery 5th edition

I've seen violence, I've been attacked and intimidated many times. Control of yourself is the first thing you have to learn. Know when you can and can't use the firearm, this way if you HAVE to use it and justified by law to use it, you will be able to use it swiftly and without hesitation. I know how you feel, thus I recommend that you get a pepper spray to handle apparently unarmed individuals on the street, instead of pulling your gun at slightest fear of an assault.

Thank you for the titles, I just Amazon.com-ed them and have ordered "In the Gravest Extreme". Also, I have to state that I do not live my life in fear, constantly itching for the opportunity to somehow "make up" for an attack on my person. The guy who cut me was trying to steal my truck, with me in it. I knew that if I let him get in, I would be dead. I fought him, got sliced, and lost almost a pint of blood in the process. The truck stalled out and I got out during the struggle, and that's when the auto parts store owner literally saved my ass by pointing the shotgun at the perp. He didn't shoot the guy, and that was indeed the right decision.

If I had a CCW I would not blindly "draw" on people as others have done/suggested elsewhere in this forum. I did not post this message to say "this is what I would/will do" in a home invasion situation, but rather to find out if my thinking was as out of line as my friend had suggested. I'm a big enough man to admit when I'm wrong. You are right, though, I would take the class of course to get the CCW and get any other training I possibly could before carrying a firearm outside my house. It is a huge responsibility, and I am aware of this.

StrikeFire83
January 13, 2006, 05:03 AM
You will be found guilty of Murder. It will get you a enhancement on your sentence. Possibly the Death Sentence, maybe just Life with out chance of parole.

If you’d been following this thread you’d know that a lot of what you said does not apply. I have to re-state that this is not “what I would do.” One of the reasons for this board is to run hypotheticals past people with much more knowledge and experience than yourself, and that was what I was doing.

I would ask you, sir, if you have ever been the victim of violence, violence which was quite possibly intended to kill you. Until then, stow your flip sarcasm.

Either way a terrible price for being stupid. Get the firearms training before you get a CCW.


The last part of your post holds true, however.

Strings
January 13, 2006, 06:27 AM
I've "gamed" the home-invasion scenario a few times. Best answer I've come up with:

Shoot to stop attacker, while wife calls 911
retreat to safer location, preferably where attacker is still visible
turn on any light I can that will illuminate where attacker is
shoot again only if attacker still has weapon and ability to use it
wait for police

UWstudent
January 13, 2006, 08:14 AM
for those interested about this topic in the state of WA...

while at the gun range today shooting off my kimber i got into a 1-hr conversation with a tacoma police officer.

he made it clear and blunt..

if somebody is in your house, they are tresspassing. inform them to leave.. if they do not, shoot first. call 911 later. tell them the basics but get your lawyer before making releasing any information that could come back at you.

this is for the state of WA. i dont know about the other 49
the issue is very complicated but how are you supposed to know that the guy who's in your house doesn't have a weopon.. and if they plan on staying there after you told them to leave, they're apparently gonna come get you..


honestly, if i heard the door bust open, people running around with ski masks, trashing everything up, i would tell them to leave and take a description of the vehicle they left in (make, liscense #)..
IF they don't leave... then i'll put a few rounds in them

Mark in California
January 14, 2006, 03:28 AM
I was on the computer a few years ago when a bullet came through the wall and impacted into my desk. Yelled a warning to my wife and hit the ground and crawled into the frontroom to see if my wife was ok. Called the police and waited. They were there within 3 min., but it seemed like hours. After being shot at, there was no way I was going outside until the police arrived.

Two drunken idiots were driving around town and shooting at everything they could think of. Shot at least 13 houses. We were number three on the hit list.

I got in a argument with the DA about the lack of charges. We did not count as a assualt. Now I have a unhappy DA to contend with, and I learned just how much power a DA has. My advice, do not get on the bad side of a DA.

Yes I have been there to a extent. No, I was not being smart. I was trying to stop somone from making a terrible mistake.

Hardware
January 14, 2006, 11:49 AM
If during the initial encounter the bad guy is shot multiple times, that's just self defense. (DA: "Why did you shoot him five times?" HOMEOWNER: "He was still on his feet and a threat after four.")



The most correct answer would be "my gun only held 5 rounds." ;) j/k

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