Armed group searches local ER


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highdesert
January 12, 2006, 02:36 PM
A pretty good illustration of the futility of being unarmed among the wolves. The police response was fast (3-5 minutes) but still plenty of time to get killed.

highdesert

-------------------


Five males, one with gun, invade ER
Installation of metal detector under review by AVH officials
This story appeared in the Antelope Valley Press on Thursday, January 12, 2006.
By BOB WILSON
Valley Press Staff Writer



--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
LANCASTER - Staff and patients at Antelope Valley Hospital got a scare Tuesday afternoon when five males - one of them armed with a gun - began searching the emergency room for an apparent target.
The five "swarmed the emergency room" shortly before 5 p.m., hospital spokeswoman Jackie Weder said.

"One had a pistol in his waistband, and they were searching for someone. They were looking at everybody in the ER," Weder said.

Not finding the subject of their search, the group left, "but one of the five came back, and a nurse said, 'Can I help you?' and then he spouted profanities to the nurse, who then called security," Weder said.

As security officers responded, sheriff's deputies already in the back rooms of the ER on other business responded as well, she said.

The deputies "were there immediately, and no patients were ever in danger," Weder said.

"There was a young lady in the waiting area, and she went to a nurse and said that they were looking for her boyfriend," Weder continued. "The boyfriend wasn't there with her; she just happened to be there on her own."

At some point, deputies detained three people for questioning, but none was arrested, Weder said.

"It was very scary for our staff," she said.

Emergency room director Denise Goodwin said she was not present when the intruders rushed into the facility, but said the incident scared her staff - particularly because the male with the gun made no attempt to hide it.

The nurse who later confronted a gunless member of the group when he returned "was quite frightened" even though the incident "took just a minute or two," Goodwin said.

As for the person with the gun, "I think if he had seen who he was looking for, he would have shot him. But I can't say for sure; I can't be in that person's mind," she said.

"But (the nurse) said they were looking at everybody and there were five of them, so that tells me they were looking for somebody to do something," Goodwin said.

Lancaster sheriff's Deputy Miguel Torres said officers responded to a call from AV Hospital at 4:53 p.m. and took a report concerning criminal threats.

The suspect who allegedly made the threats is being sought. He was described as a black male between 15 and 20 who was carrying a gun and wearing a Popeye's Chicken & Biscuits restaurant uniform, Torres said.

The suspect was believed to have been looking for a particular person, the officer said.

It was not immediately known if the incident was gang-related, he said.

Ed Mirzabegian, the hospital's chief operating officer, said Lancaster deputies were there within three minutes and a Sheriff's Department helicopter was searching the area around the hospital within five minutes.

"I was very impressed" with the response, Mirzabegian said.

AV Hospital has owned a metal detector for screening people for about six months but has not installed it because a policy concerning its use still is being discussed, he said.

Questions such as which people should be screened, when people should be screened and whether a screening officer should be armed or unarmed remain unanswered, Mirzabegian said.

"We are checking with other agencies" about their policies for using such devices, he said. "What if someone who needs care says 'no?' " to being searched, he said.

"Can you imagine coming in with family members for care and having them all searched?" Mirzabegian said. "And all of this for a couple of bad apples."

Another question yet to be answered concerns where the device should be placed, Weder said, noting there are a number of ways for people to enter the hospital besides the main door of the emergency room.

Regardless of the image such a device might give AV Hospital, administrators may have to revisit the issue because of Tuesday's situation, Weder said.

Although the situation was a first, "It only takes one incident" to raise public concerns, she said.

bwilson@avpress.com

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scout26
January 12, 2006, 03:15 PM
Highdesert. Where was this (as in what state ?? I'm guessing PA ???)

Someone want to explain to me exactly how having a metal detector at the entrance would have prevented an armed indivdual from entering ????

The suspect who allegedly made the threats is being sought. He was described as a black male between 15 and 20 who was carrying a gun and wearing a Popeye's Chicken & Biscuits restaurant uniform, Torres said.

Hmm, sounds like the cops just need to canvas the local Popeye's.


The suspect was believed to have been looking for a particular person, the officer said.

It was not immediately known if the incident was gang-related, he said.

Well since they asked the young lady if her boyfriend was there and when he wasn't there, they left....YA THINK ????

:banghead: :banghead: :banghead:

highdesert
January 12, 2006, 03:45 PM
It took place in **********

My favorite quote:

---
As for the person with the gun, "I think if he had seen who he was looking for, he would have shot him. But I can't say for sure; I can't be in that person's mind," she said.
---

She knows something bad is going to happen, then she goes against her gut instincts and says she can't be sure. Just like what the guy talks about in the book "The Gift of Fear."

I also like the fact that they were less scared of the other guys who were probably, in my opinion, doing a better job of carrying concealed.

highdesert

1 old 0311
January 12, 2006, 03:49 PM
My girlfriend works in a ER. The newer hospitals have panic buttons EVERYWHERE, and armed security on site.

Kevin

Optical Serenity
January 12, 2006, 03:56 PM
Every hospital around here has armed security and a slew of law enforcement always on site.

TexasRifleman
January 12, 2006, 03:56 PM
It took place in **********



Oh. Nevermind......

LawDog
January 12, 2006, 03:58 PM
Not finding the subject of their search, the group left, "but one of the five came back, and a nurse said, 'Can I help you?' and then he spouted profanities to the nurse, who then called security," Weder said.

:scrutiny:

Now, if I read this correctly, five individuals - one armed - entered the ER and began searching for someone.

When they got done with their search, the individuals then left.

One proceeded to return, at which point he cussed out a nurse.

Then the ER personnel called for Security/Police.

Is that about right?

LawDog

pax
January 12, 2006, 04:06 PM
A metal detector would have helped, how?? The metal detector would have shown he was carrying a gun. Oddly enough, just looking at him did that ...

Nevertheless, "no patients were ever in danger" because the police were there within minutes.

How long does it take to pull a trigger? Anyone ...?

pax

Biker
January 12, 2006, 04:19 PM
Popeye's Chicken and Biscuits, hmmm? I'm guessin' that it was a professional hit put out on Col. Sanders.
I can hear the hitman's final taunt just before he pulls the trigger: "What's the matter Colonel Sanders? Chicken? Bwaaahaahaa"
Biker:evil:

Alex45ACP
January 12, 2006, 04:21 PM
$50 says this had something to do with drug prohibition.

longeyes
January 12, 2006, 04:22 PM
A good indicator of the state of local civilization: the thugs feel emboldened to prowl in medical facilities. If you're not safe in ER, where are you safe?

Glock 26s for the whole team.

molonlabe
January 12, 2006, 05:07 PM
In my house and probably many THR members houses.

cosine
January 12, 2006, 05:13 PM
Okay, I've got a Strategies and Tactics question. If you were carrying there, when you saw the guy with the gun in his waistband enter and saw his actions and attitude would you draw down on him and hold him at gunpoint?

johnster999
January 12, 2006, 05:16 PM
He was described as a black male between 15 and 20 who was carrying a gun and wearing a Popeye's Chicken & Biscuits restaurant uniform, Torres said.

The latest in gangsta fashion. All the cool kids will be wearing it soon.

middy
January 12, 2006, 05:19 PM
"What's the matter Colonel Sanders? Chicken? Bwaaahaahaa"
:eek:

Biker, that is so wrong.

:D

longrifleman
January 12, 2006, 06:04 PM
carrying a gun and wearing a Popeye's Chicken & Biscuits restaurant uniform

If it ain't a pink gorilla suit it ain't worth talkin about.

would you draw down on him and hold him at gunpoint?

Nope. Move any family out of the way if possible, then move to a flanking position, preferrably with some hard cover and wait. Check your backstop; then check it again. Sheetrock is not armor plate. Then hope you don't have to make the decision wether to draw or not.

cosine
January 12, 2006, 06:12 PM
Nope. Move any family out of the way if possible, then move to a flanking position, preferrably with some hard cover and wait. Check your backstop; then check it again. Sheetrock is not armor plate. Then hope you don't have to make the decision wether to draw or not.

Got it. I should have thought of that move myself after reading so much stuff here about scenarios similar to this one. :banghead:

Standing Wolf
January 12, 2006, 11:33 PM
Lancaster deputies were there within three minutes and a Sheriff's Department helicopter was searching the area around the hospital within five minutes.

That's time enough to start writing crime reports; it's not, however, time enough to prevent innocent people from being slaughtered.

CAnnoneer
January 13, 2006, 12:24 AM
Off-topic perhaps, but if you ever get pulled into a shootout, wouldn't it be best that it happens in the ER?

sm
January 13, 2006, 12:51 AM
As some know I used to work in the main OR of a hospital. The main OR had 19 suites. Of course the ER was easiley accessible.

Now in AR, State law says no CCW in hosptials, There is also proper signage.

The hosptial I was employed...

Here is a scary truth. Not all surveillance cameras were operational. Meaning either not turned on - or if so, no tape. Most security were NOT armed. It costs more money to hire one armed. Now get wind JACO was coming - everything worked.

There are signs - BIG signs. Sterile Area do not enter. One had to be in scrubs to be in the OR.

I have had "youths" come into to hosptial, get to OR and come in in looking for someone. I have a in-house portable phone, a plastic box cutter,and that is it. Not a good situation to be in and on knees call security...hiding at 230 am all by yourself back there.

Now the other hosptials have better security. I did rotations at these and some private facilties. Our Childrens hospital has the best security. I have volunteered there...my ex worked there. Armed, uniformed and plainclothed...all armed.All Cameras work...great security.

I covered my butt with some folks, then volunteered to show how anyone could get in, how they could get equipment, get into lockers ( including ladies and Drs area) and get drugs. I mean I waltzed in over a weeks time and with folks in security watching out for me, and another group to keep me from getting in trouble...I breeched security - often. My ID was protected.

My point is - security and cameras keep an honest man honest. If a BG really wants something - he will get it. The trick is to slow him down and make really difficult.

My old place...if a terrorist really wants to screw the pooch...just take an stolen ambulance into the ER.

Not the other hospitals for sure not the Children's.

Anyone in a setting such as this needs to investigate what they really have - not what they are told ,or what "appears" to be.

I even got into the psych ward. And that is a locked floor. Boy did that shock folks.

At Childrens, especially with "J Does" - security is tight. You ain't getting a kid,no way.

ka50
January 13, 2006, 12:55 AM
shotgun 00 buck behind the counter
mandatory 20 hour marksmanship training for the personel behind the counter

case closed.

Kim
January 13, 2006, 01:01 AM
CCW is not prohibited in hospitals in Arkansas. Private hospitals can ban it however. The hospital I work in does not. I have a lawyer who is to sue any business if I am ever killed on their property if I had to leave my gun behind because of their personal policies. Only way I can keep griping after I am gone.

sm
January 13, 2006, 01:18 AM
In an ER / OR one has many things that do not "react well to bullets"...besides people.
Gases, Oxygen, and add fire , combustions due to electrical equipment and various lines with O2 and whatnot.

I did use a gurney, throwing saline bottles and chase some folks out once. I mean I had my disposable box cutter and two extra disposable scalpels...damn bat phone went blitz and I was a bit busy to stop and find a phone...and I though I managed to hit a panic button - I knew it most likely was there for show to the public...it was not hooked up...

Firearms are not the end-all do-all solution to everything.

Brains and training go a lot further.

I, like many, did not wear badges around our neck, even with break-away. We just got into too much too quick to have badge get in someones chest.

Mine was handy, and I had a special hard plastic key to access areas. Like a credit card, only a tad thicker, my was really sharp on two edges...err...just so it would insert better and all of course.

A Saline bottle ( not the bags) is a really useful tool in case you ever were curious.

The worst place to try to run into and hurt someone in a OR is the Instrument room. I mean really sharp tools, big tools, saws , hammers and stuff...No biggie to access the ones not autoclaved, I mean I had back up plans...

Just shared with my graveyard bunch some stuff. Only guy , the rest ladies...except when cases going of course. But I have been in a harvest, and "visitors" come in.
Had visitors come in with a number of rooms going too.

One car dumps someone at front door, opposing group comes into ER/ OR looking for this guy...fun times for sure.

Criminals do not care about signs or regs. Fact.

Do the Hospital Required fire, security bits - you know for personal record.
Then get to know Security, get your crew to ask for asssistance and ideas, formulate a plan,get training.

You have to follow the regs , you must also understand some regs are to cover the employers butt - not yours. Take care of you.

Many nurses wear knives or in pockets in areas with regular nurses outfits. OR Scrubs were different.

Oh yes ...the baseball bats in some OR suites, they really are part of the surgeries done in them rooms.
Really. Just at the time I was not near one of them rooms. Some Drs and such saw a need that all rooms had one...and other areas too.

Folks would be blown away as to what all goes on in a ER, OR and other areas.

I took my bat on smoke breaks...I'm a nice guy. Then I got to toting a putter or 7 iron. At 4 am it is okay to practice putting in the Drs lounge...
Putter or 7 iron less obvious, and folks think you are Dr. *grin*

sm
January 13, 2006, 01:35 AM
Kim,
You are correct. The hosptial I was employed did not allow CCW. I did some rotations in some private clinics that also had no CCW.

My apologies.

mbs357
January 13, 2006, 01:59 AM
The deputies "were there immediately, and no patients were ever in danger," Weder said.
Yes.
Because the deputies (not full fledged Sherriffs, now) came to the rescue (and long after the fact).
Yes.
The whole time the bad guys and the one with the gun was in the ER, no one was at danger at all.
Because the deputies came out afterwards.
<_____<

LawDog
January 13, 2006, 12:02 PM
Because the deputies (not full fledged Sherriffs, now)

What the heck are you talking about?

Because the deputies came out afterwards.

According to what I read in that article, the deputies were only called after the armed suspect left the ER.

Since the article states that deputies were actually physically present in another part of the ER when the invasion occured, if the ER staff had bothered to call 911 when the armed suspect first entered the ER, given that the armed suspect was taking the time for a search, the deputies would probably have caught him at the scene.

LawDog

c_yeager
January 13, 2006, 01:12 PM
My girlfriend works in a ER. The newer hospitals have panic buttons EVERYWHERE, and armed security on site.

Kevin

You must live in a really nice area. I can tell you that of all the hospitals in Seattle only one or two of them have armed security of any kind.

Peet
January 13, 2006, 01:50 PM
[BIG snip-snip]

Oh yes ...the baseball bats in some OR suites, they really are part of the surgeries done in them rooms.
Really. Just at the time I was not near one of them rooms. Some Drs and such saw a need that all rooms had one...and other areas too.



NOT WORK SAFE! You can cuss me out later, but "bat" triggered what few functional synapses I have left and this is the result...


mms://68.178.174.134/BigMan/BatDay.WMV

Found on: http://www.mikecaracciolo.com/videos/

ceetee
January 13, 2006, 02:46 PM
Yes.
Because the deputies (not full fledged Sherriffs, now)

mbs... There's only ONE Sheriff to a county. All those guys in uniforms that work for him? You know the ones that patrol the streets (and, apparently, hospital E.R.s)?

Those guys are all deputies.

It seems the problem here wasn't access to the deputies, but that the ER staff had no awareness of the situation, period. Not a hospital I want to be admitted to, BTW.

444
January 13, 2006, 11:31 PM
"Every hospital around here has armed security and a slew of law enforcement always on site."

What kind of an ER doesn't have one cop in there with a DUI, some kind of crime victim, or a prisoner ?
One of our local ERs has a police substation in it.
Plus, all of our local ERs have locked doors. You have to be let in. Actually, to get into an ER, you would probably have to go through at least two and usually three doors with keypad entry.

Kevlarman
January 14, 2006, 03:06 AM
Wow, this happened right in my town! And my mom (who is an RN there) didn't hear a thing about it from her co-workers. :confused:

Sir Aardvark
January 14, 2006, 03:28 AM
FYI:

It is a California State law that all ER's must have controlled acces to the patient care area - this means that the doors are ALWAYS locked and a keypad (or similar device) is necessary for entrance.

This law was passed after a couple of incidents where gang members would go to the hospital and finish shooting whoever it was they they did not shoot enough already.

I'm glad to see that this law worked as intended in stopping bad-guys with guns from going into the ER to finish their business.

Hawkmoon
January 14, 2006, 12:21 PM
The five "swarmed the emergency room" shortly before 5 p.m., hospital spokeswoman Jackie Weder said.

"One had a pistol in his waistband, and they were searching for someone. They were looking at everybody in the ER," Weder said.

Not finding the subject of their search, the group left, "but one of the five came back, and a nurse said, 'Can I help you?' and then he spouted profanities to the nurse, who then called security," Weder said.

As security officers responded, sheriff's deputies already in the back rooms of the ER on other business responded as well, she said.

The deputies "were there immediately, and no patients were ever in danger," Weder said.
Let me see if I understand the chronology:

Bad guys enter ER ... one carrying gun.

Bad guys search ER looking for target.

Bad guys leave.

Bad guy returns.

Nurse calls security.

Security and deputies respond.

It appears that the bad guys had the run of the ER for an inderterminate period of time, unencumbered by interference on the part of staff, hospital security, or LEO. And Ms. Weder has the affrontery to state that no patients were ever in danger?

highdesert
January 14, 2006, 04:15 PM
Let me see if I understand the chronology:

Bad guys enter ER ... one carrying gun.

Bad guys search ER looking for target.

Bad guys leave.

Bad guy returns.

Nurse calls security.

Security and deputies respond.

It appears that the bad guys had the run of the ER for an inderterminate period of time, unencumbered by interference on the part of staff, hospital security, or LEO. And Ms. Weder has the affrontery to state that no patients were ever in danger?


Hawkmoon,

I think that chronology is right. I think the BG leaves / BG returns part may have just been them widening their search in/around the hospital. Sounds like patients were in danger to me.

I'm also surprised that the story doesn't seem to mention people bailing out of the ER. I realize that you can't always leave the ER before treatment, but I know I would be inclined to do so if my injuries weren't severe.

By the way, my wife delivered our baby there about 1 year ago, and the maternity ward had an impressive security system where each baby is ankle tagged and every door requires keypad entry. The doors won't let you out with a baby.

We were told the reason for this level of security is that gangmembers steal each others babies. Nice.

highdesert

Coronach
January 14, 2006, 04:39 PM
The chronology is probably slightly off due to less than stellar journalism skills. However, I think we can all agree that it really doesn't matter. If they had found their guy, there would probably have been a shooting, and it would not have mattered if they had called right away or called after the last casing hit the tiles.

Mike

MillCreek
January 14, 2006, 05:39 PM
By the way, my wife delivered our baby there about 1 year ago, and the maternity ward had an impressive security system where each baby is ankle tagged and every door requires keypad entry. The doors won't let you out with a baby.

We were told the reason for this level of security is that gangmembers steal each others babies. Nice.

I work in healthcare administration. Newborn abductions are every hospital's nightmare. I have never heard of an abduction by a 'gangbanger', and certainly not in the Seattle area. The data on these abductions indicate that the majority of them are done by young to middle-aged Caucasian females, usually childless, and often posing as a nurse, physician or other healthcare worker. They usually also have psychological or marital problems as well. Almost every nursery that I am aware of now uses an electronic sensor system similar to that used to foil shoplifters. And no, I will not go into details. Suffice it to say that if a newborn is transported without authority, alarms are triggered and various doors are automatically locked, sealing all personnel in on the floor. Add to this other access controls, photo ID required and the like.

c_yeager
January 14, 2006, 10:25 PM
I work in healthcare administration. Newborn abductions are every hospital's nightmare. I have never heard of an abduction by a 'gangbanger', and certainly not in the Seattle area. The data on these abductions indicate that the majority of them are done by young to middle-aged Caucasian females, usually childless, and often posing as a nurse, physician or other healthcare worker. They usually also have psychological or marital problems as well. Almost every nursery that I am aware of now uses an electronic sensor system similar to that used to foil shoplifters. And no, I will not go into details. Suffice it to say that if a newborn is transported without authority, alarms are triggered and various doors are automatically locked, sealing all personnel in on the floor. Add to this other access controls, photo ID required and the like.

+1

The only other type of "infant abduction" that is "common" (the occurance of hospital infant abductions is actually very low) is when mothers/fathers take home a child that is being held by CPS for a variety of reasons. Despite the rarity of abductions it is a liability nightmare so most L&D units are set up a little like minimum security prisons. I have never in my life even heard of a gang-related hospital infant abduction. It sounds like the sort of tale that gets passed around the nurses station.

I remember when you used to be able to go look at all the newborns while waiting for people to finish their surgery, now you cant even get on the unit.

secamp32
January 15, 2006, 02:18 AM
none of the hospitals have armed security. Most could be taken over by my 6 year old daughter with a water pistol. Most are open access meaning anybody can just walk in go where ever they like.

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