Cheating wife and security clearance


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DirtyBrad
January 12, 2006, 04:48 PM
I have a friend who's working security for a federal department here in DC. The position will eventually be armed and will require about two months of dedicated firearms training. He's working there now, but is waiting on clearance before they arm and train him.

He's also seeing a married woman. She's got no kids and the marriage was on the way out before she met my friend. The husband moved out recently. He doesn't know about my friend, but he strongly suspects. It's possible that the divorce could get ugly as a result, but isn't guaranteed.

When I was interviewed for his security clearance, I asked my friend what I should say about her. He said just be honest. They didn't ask me, and I didn't say anything. Subsequently, someone else did tell them about her, so now they're looking to talk to her. They'll certainly know she's married.

Does anyone know if this will present a problem to him obtaining his security clearance? He said this is clearance, but it's not like he's trying to be a CIA agent or anything, so it's not the top of the heap. If he does try to be a federal agent in the future (he's thinking of Secret Service), will this end up on his record and biting him in the ass?

Everything else about him is exemplary. Very financially responsible, college graduate, no foreign ties, served his time in the Marine Corps, fought in Iraq, zero drugs ever, no other troubles at all. One of the best people I've ever known.

Thanks. I'm curious to hear your responses and experiences.

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Skeptic
January 12, 2006, 04:53 PM
Dirty,

Tell your friend to bag the relationship with the married woman. IMHO when they adjudicate his clearance (determine if he is trustworthy,loyal, etc) this will look bad for him in the "exercises good judgement" section.

I dont have a dog in the fight, but after being in the business for 25+ years I have seen people get clearances yanked or denied for less and I have seen people keep clearances for doing worse. Better to be safe than sorry.

Kharn
January 12, 2006, 04:53 PM
I'd consider that a high-risk behavior. :scrutiny:

Kharn

waterhouse
January 12, 2006, 04:56 PM
I'm not sure what the reaction will be, but if he didn't tell them in the first place there could be problems. I passed my background for a federal job, and then it expired, so I'm currently in the process of redoing it. They stress over and over to be honest, and "lies of ommision" aren't looked upon too well, from what my investigators have told me.

Typically the very last question they ask at the background interview is something like "Is there anything that we haven't covered which you feel that we need to know about . . .anything that might bring up questions concerning your integrity?"

They also asked in mine if I was dating/seeing/sleeping with anyone. If he lied on any of these questions there could be problems. From the agents I have talked to, they are pretty lenient about the stuff you actually did in your past, but they aren't very forgiving if you try to cover it up.

DirtyBrad
January 12, 2006, 05:02 PM
Thank you for the responses.

He said they didn't ask him any stuff about women or relationships at all. He's freakishly honest about everything, so if he didn't tell them first, I think it's because he didn't consider it a problem at all.

The lying by omission question is an interesting one. Even if he'd been right up front about it, though, is it something that would get you denied? Anyone have direct experience or knowledge of this?

scout26
January 12, 2006, 05:12 PM
He's freakishly honest about everything,

:rolleyes:
Hmmm, I would consider sleeping with another man's wife as being rather dishonest.

+1 to what Kharn and Skeptic said.


Scout26 (Who had a TS clearance and has done background checks.)

ArmedBear
January 12, 2006, 05:19 PM
Security clearances don't merely consider your own character; they consider whether you are especially subject to blackmail or intimidation.

If he were secretly a Friday-night <> pirate with a wife and two kids who didn't know, that could jeopardize his clearance. If he's openly gay and his family and friends have no problem with it, that would be fine, though.

So who knows what they'll do with this information.

Camp David
January 12, 2006, 05:25 PM
I have a friend... He's also seeing a married woman... Everything else about him is exemplary...

While being a Security Guard does not legally require one to have sterling moral character, it should prompt one to use basic common sense....

Such an arrangement as you describe, DirtyBrad, can only end bad! What's going to happen??? Sure enough, husband comes home to visit wife/wife's home at some point and finds Mr. Security Guard and Wife together... if Security Guard has a gun by that time, what do you think will happen?

Have you counseled friend on likely result???

DirtyBrad
January 12, 2006, 05:50 PM
The situation is what it is. I'm just looking to find out how this will impact his clearance. The marriage is ending, the husband is out, and my friend has no problem with anyone knowing about it.

I don't know a ton about security clearances. I do understand that they don't want the applicant to be in a position that anyone could take advantage of. So, I see where, if the marriage was continuing and they were trying to keep it a secret, it could affect his clearance.

But is "moral repugnancy" grounds for denial? Can they say that something isn't illegal and doesn't put the applicant in a situation someone could blackmail them over, but is still enough to deny the application?

Again, I'm hoping to hear from folks who have had direct contact or first hand knowledge of a similar situation. Thanks for all of the responses so far.

Sindawe
January 12, 2006, 06:30 PM
Hmmm, I would consider sleeping with another man's wife as being rather dishonest+1

DirtyBrad
January 12, 2006, 06:37 PM
I think it's wrong for sure, but I'm not sure I agree it's dishonest. On her part, sure. She is, or was, lying to her husband. I guess he's complicit, but it doesn't seem exactly right to me to call it dishonest.

Technosavant
January 12, 2006, 07:33 PM
Generally, having an adulterous relationship is unwise. Whether you or the other person (or both) is married, no matter the genders (be they complementary or matching). Having several other people knowing about it shows astonishingly poor judgment. It all depends on who is making the decisions.

XD_fan
January 12, 2006, 07:38 PM
I second the suggestion to break off the affair.

Can't say for sure that it will be a problem but I have seen people lose a clearance for similiar things. Falls under the blackmail/intimidation area as mentioned above.

Bartholomew Roberts
January 12, 2006, 07:43 PM
As long as he didn't lie to them about it or neglect to inform them when given a chance, he will be fine.

shermacman
January 12, 2006, 07:45 PM
Can't possibly make a judgement without a photo.

No, not a photo of your friend.

DirtyBrad
January 12, 2006, 07:54 PM
The marriage is over. I know what the odds of my friend and this girl working out are, but this isn't sneaking over to Mrs. Robinson's to bang her while the husband is out golfing or "one of these days, I'll leave him, I swear". Both parties want the divorce and the husband has moved out.

Anway...

Bartholomew, thanks for the direct answer - very helpful.

Shermacman, she's hot, like movie star good looking. My friend has known from the gun that this is the wrong thing to be doing and fully admitted that if she weren't a 10, he'd be thinking with his brain.

progunner1957
January 12, 2006, 07:54 PM
Friday-night butt pirate

HAAAAAAAAAAR, me mateys! No skewering of other menfolk or we'll keelhaul your arse for certain!!:evil:

joab
January 12, 2006, 08:04 PM
His affair shows a lack of moral character, a dishonest self serving nature, and a demonstrated lack of respect for commitment or honor

His blaming the husband for his indiscretions shows an inability to take responsibility for his own actions and a tendency to blame others for his shortcomings

Federal job? He'll be fine

TexasRifleman
January 12, 2006, 08:08 PM
:rolleyes:
Hmmm, I would consider sleeping with another man's wife as being rather dishonest.

+1 to what Kharn and Skeptic said.


Scout26 (Who had a TS clearance and has done background checks.)

Yeah, that's funny, saying he's freakishly honest. Sounds like he's a scumbag to me
......he's going to work for ATF isn't he?

DirtyBrad
January 12, 2006, 08:16 PM
His affair shows a lack of moral character, a dishonest self serving nature, and a demonstrated lack of respect for any commitment or honor

His blaming the husband for his indiscretions shows an inability to take responsibility for his own actions and a tendency to blame others for his shortcomings

Federal job? He'll be fine

Yet his Marine Corps service, including plenty of combat in Iraq, shows high moral character, a willingness to put himself in danger for us and his fellow soldiers, and strong respect for this country. It's almost like a person is defined by more than one thing.

He never blamed the husband for anything. Let me take responsibility for my own shortcoming in thinking I could post a simple question on the internet and get answers that stayed basically on topic.

DirtyBrad
January 12, 2006, 08:17 PM
I still don't quite see how dishonest applies. I'm not totally ruling it out, but so far it doesn't seem to fit.

asiparks
January 12, 2006, 08:19 PM
Wow ! What a bunch of judgemental buggers !

Me and my ex wife were seperated and both seeing other people before we were officially divorced. It helped us get on with our lives and generally made each of us happier and nicer-to-be-around people...guess that puts the pair of us right down there with kiddy fiddlers and people that knock old ladies over the head for their purses.. Get over your pious selves.:mad:

joab
January 12, 2006, 09:13 PM
He never blamed the husband for anything. Let me take responsibility for my own shortcoming in thinking I could post a simple question on the internet and get answers that stayed basically on topic.I guess I could blame myself for thinking that you weren't just looking for people to agree with you

He's also seeing a married woman. She's got no kids and the marriage was on the way out before she met my friend. The husband moved out recently. He doesn't know about my friend, but he strongly suspects. It's possible that the divorce could get ugly as a result, but isn't guaranteed.If the marriage was over when they met why did the husband just move out recently. Or did the affair begin more recently than recently.
If they were separated why would he have strong suspicions about an affair.
Maybe the reason the marriage is over is because the wife is a slut and your friend didn't care about marital status as long as he got some

Just about every cheating spouse I have ever known claimed that the marriage was over, they just routinely forget to tell the other spouse before trying out new candidates.

joab
January 12, 2006, 09:14 PM
Me and my ex wife were seperated and both seeing other people before we were officially divorced.See the difference yet

asiparks
January 12, 2006, 10:19 PM
See the difference yet
"seperated" as in we didn't share a common abode, but even if we did, so what exactly ? Life is way to short to be stuck in a miserable place.

Might I ask if you subscribe to the wisdoms of the sagely Pat Robertson ? Should I be on the look out for an impending natural disaster coming to smite me....?

Sorry to the OP for only adding to the off topicness...

joab
January 12, 2006, 11:07 PM
Might I ask if you subscribe to the wisdoms of the sagely Pat Robertson ? Should I be on the look out for an impending natural disaster coming to smite me.I guess if you can't stick to the topic you can always make asinine comments about my religious convictions which I have not even hinted at.

separated" as in we didn't share a common abode, Yeah that's what separated means:rolleyes: but even if we did, so what exactlyThen that would be a demonstrated lack of character and lack of respect for the commitment that you voluntarily entered into.

If you can't move on without having someone else to run to you are truly a weak and pathetic person.

If it takes meeting someone else to show you that you are unhappy then you are an idiot

If you use those excuses as an excuse to cheat you are contemptible

Kaylee
January 12, 2006, 11:13 PM
Okay, we're going to be nice to each other now.

Talking about the ethics of adultery (which yes, is what it is) and its effect on security clearance -- fine.

Picking at each other -- not fine.

Wakarimasu ka?

carebear
January 12, 2006, 11:16 PM
If he was still in the Marines it'd be a punishable offense under the ol' UCMJ IIRC.

I think as long as he doesn't lie about it he'll be ok. I don't do that sort of thing anymore for a reason though.

DirtyBrad
January 12, 2006, 11:37 PM
I guess I could blame myself for thinking that you weren't just looking for people to agree with you...

In my original post, I said that my friend did this and asked if anyone knew how it would affect his clearance. There's nothing there to agree or disagree with. It's a question.

...Maybe the reason the marriage is over is because the wife is a slut and your friend didn't care about marital status as long as he got some...

Very high road, on topic, and constructive. Maybe she's a slut. Maybe she's a vampire or a toll-booth worker. It all makes about as much difference to what I'm asking.

I thought I'd ask about this here because I know a lot of you have jobs that require clearance or work for the federal government. I'd still be very interested in hearing from anyone who has thoughts about how this could affect my friend's application for clearance. Thanks.

XLMiguel
January 13, 2006, 12:07 AM
I'm with the "Honesty is the best policy" bunch, and if your friend has been honest, it probably isn't a big deal in regards to his security clearence (assumeing she ins't 'married to the mob' or something). It is a bit tawdry by some standards, though, and if he thinks he's being judged by Puritans and prigs (sorta like some here), he'd be wise to but her aside until she's free and clear.

OTOH, I know a few Secret Service folks, and every one of them has been married more than once. FWIW.

Art Eatman
January 13, 2006, 01:30 AM
Yuck.

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