It had to happen... from Super Soaker to non-lethal weapon!


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Preacherman
January 13, 2006, 03:13 AM
From WAFB, Baton Rouge, LA (http://www.wafb.com/global/story.asp?s=4344867):

Non-Lethal Weapons Offered to NOPD

Jan 11, 2006, 03:08 PM

(WWL-TV) -- Following the deadly shooting by New Orleans Police Department last month of a man on St. Charles Avenue, area church groups called on police to find a safer way to take down a suspect. One local man said he may have the answer to bringing down a suspect safely.

Since the shooting incident on December 26, 2005, the New Orleans Police Department said it would explore alternate methods to subdue potentially violent suspects without the use of lethal force.

One of those new methods may be the ‘Trooper,’ a fifty pound, high-powered water cannon that uses air pressure to blast one liter of water at a target. One liter does not sound like much, until it hits you.

“It’s been described as being stung by a hive of bees and being kicked by a mule, both at the same time,” said Carl Finley.

Finley said the ‘Trooper,’ originally designed to fight fires in Austria, is the only one of its kind in the United States. His company, Firekraft USA, has recently acquired the rights to sell the device in the country.

Finley, a Jefferson Parish fireman, said he does not second guess the recent actions of the NOPD, but a company training video shows a similar situation: where a man with a knife is taken down with one shot.

He believes the ‘Trooper’ gives police the ability to safely escalate force toward a suspect and make him comply with their demands.

“And that begins with simply shooting them in the shin if you have to,” Finley said. “Give him some pain, give him some kinetic energy. And if he doesn’t want to take it there, give him another shot to the gut if that’s what it takes. But ultimately there’s enough energy here that you can fold a person in half just like a piece of paper and put them on the deck.”

The amount of water in the firing canister can be varied to shoot 12 one liter shots or 48 quarter liter shots, according to Finley. Whatever force is needed to control the suspect.

Finley said when new impact data comes back at the end of January, the ‘Trooper’ will be ready for the U.S. market. The device sells anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000, but the cost to refill the canister is virtually free.

The ultimate goal is to give police and the military another tool in the trade to put a suspect down but keep the person alive.

Finley said prisons in Indiana and Pennsylvania are interested in the ‘Trooper,’ but added the SWAT teams in Jefferson Parish and Orleans Parish want to hear more after the additional testing is complete later this month.

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Crosshair
January 13, 2006, 03:16 AM
Ba, I just made my super soaker into a flamethrower. MUCH more effective. Flame in flight really gets their attention.:evil:

Standing Wolf
January 13, 2006, 05:27 AM
One of those new methods may be the ‘Trooper,’ a fifty pound, high-powered water cannon that uses air pressure to blast one liter of water at a target.

The device sells anywhere from $10,000 to $15,000...

Sounds a lot like the Department of Fatherland Security: it's twenty times heavier than an effective weapon, nearly twenty times as expensive, and it's actually a squirt gun.

Strings
January 13, 2006, 06:06 AM
Gee... didn't they have something like this awhile back? I seem to recall seeing videos of water cannon in use. Now where and when was it... :rolleyes:

toolmaker
January 13, 2006, 10:27 AM
I'm concerned that a gun like this would cause my garden hose to be reclassified as a fully automatic weapon subject to the provisions of a new NFA (National Firehose Act?).

dfaugh
January 13, 2006, 10:38 AM
I have a friend that works in the corrections system in Germany. They started using these aout 6 months ago, and they like 'em. I can see themas useful in the prison system, but not sure how useful they'd be for most police forces.

waynesan
January 13, 2006, 11:39 AM
I'm concerned that a gun like this would cause my garden hose to be reclassified as a fully automatic weapon subject to the provisions of a new NFA (National Firehose Act?).


TOOLMAKER, That was too funny to start my day with. Thanks for a morning lift.

trooper
January 13, 2006, 11:57 AM
I'm a cop in Germany. We do have them and they're pretty useful... if you need to quiet down an unruly crowd, that is (riot situations etc.).

IMO they're rather useless for most other use-of-force situations because it takes way too much time to dispatch them. That's okay for crowd control operations because you know fairly well in advance when a soccer game/demonstration/whatever public event will be. But most situations that patrol officers encounter are over before this thing even rolls out of the garage. Besides this they're only issued to a couple specialized riot-control units statewide.


Trooper

trooper
January 13, 2006, 12:09 PM
Here are some pics...

http://media.de.indymedia.org/images/2004/05/82028.jpg

http://www.goest.de/naz_wass.jpg

armoredman
January 13, 2006, 12:18 PM
I'd hate to have to live somewhere these things are depolyed on a regular basis...
A 50 pound water gun? I don't know, not good in lockdwn, but maybe if deployed on a tower on a yard, or a mobile platform, but then I need an armored car for my super soaker.

redranger1
January 13, 2006, 12:36 PM
what if ya take someones eye out with that thing? sounds like a lawsuit waiting to happen to me.

Rupestris
January 13, 2006, 12:55 PM
I'm concerned that a gun like this would cause my garden hose to be reclassified as a fully automatic weapon subject to the provisions of a new NFA (National Firehose Act?).

Would that make the Powerwasher I got for Christmas a Pre-ban powerwasher? :p

one-shot-one
January 13, 2006, 01:01 PM
if the "suspect needs to be shot with a water cannon, that by the way could in some cases kill, then they need to be shot. all this warm fuzzy crap about criminals just burns me.:fire: :banghead:
water with that kind of force, if for instance it finds a break in the skin can enter and peel flesh right off, opening the perp to infection and amputation or death.:rolleyes:

toolmaker
January 13, 2006, 01:15 PM
Rupestris- Would advise you not to install a large capacity detachable soap cannister or a bayonet to the wand....

P95Carry
January 13, 2006, 01:22 PM
Leaving aside practical issues, like the 50# weight etc - so hardly suitable for holster carry ;) - the 1 liter, which equates to 1kg (2.2#) would give quite a thump at significant velocity.

I didn't follow up the link but am interested to know what velocity the water achieves and how coherent is the discharged mass.

benEzra
January 13, 2006, 02:27 PM
Neat concept, but it doesn't address the New Orleans situation. They didn't even have time to get a shotgun with beanbag rounds on the scene in that incident, and you can't just hang a 50-pound water cannon on your duty belt just in case you need it. So deployment time really comes into play.

Rockrivr1
January 13, 2006, 02:30 PM
50 lbs??? :what: Yeah, I want to be the guy assigned to lugging that thing around. Um, NOT!!!

Strings
January 13, 2006, 02:40 PM
Well, it WOULD encourage officers to stay in shape...

"You... officer Jones! You didn't pass your fitness qual, so you carry the squirtgun"... :neener:

wingnutx
January 13, 2006, 03:08 PM
How is this better that a bean-bag round from a shotgun?

keyhole
January 13, 2006, 03:15 PM
Just another gimmick,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

nomadboi
January 13, 2006, 04:13 PM
Yeah, and they can break it out for its first use on Monday... what better time to celebrate their new high-power riot control water hose than on Martin Luther King, Jr Day?

Um, someone didn't think that out too well.

I say for crowd control they should just dump a truckload of marbles into the street, and round up everyone after they've fallen down a couple times... works in the cartoons!:rolleyes:

Johnny_Yuma
January 13, 2006, 08:03 PM
I say for crowd control they should just dump a truckload of marbles into the street, and round up everyone after they've fallen down a couple times... works in the cartoons!:rolleyes:

Some years ago someone pitched an idea for the GOO GUN (I wish it were a joke). The Goo Gun was meant to be a non-lethal means of crowd control. The idea was to fire a water-based lubricant (sort of like KY jelly) onto the street, thereby causing everyone to slip to the ground. The goo could be washed away with a firehose after everyone was in custody. Problem is, some poor schmuck in a blue uniform has to wade into the goo to cuff and retreive the disorderlies....:banghead:

This water gun will kill someone. Just wait. Then, we'll hear all of these church groups in NO bitching about that.

nomadboi
January 13, 2006, 08:08 PM
Ya see, if they used metal ball-bearings, they could suck 'em up in a big magnet when they're done...:p

...and just hope none of the rioters have slingshots...

The_Antibubba
January 14, 2006, 12:41 AM
Aren't weapons designed only for wetwork banned in this country? :evil:

Kodiaz
January 14, 2006, 12:53 AM
If we are going to issue cops nonlethal weapons how about something that is at least fun to use. Bean bag ammo. Just sling a 12 ga. with bean bags over your shoulder if the criminal filth won't cease and desist after a beanbag then pull out sidearm and deploy the JHP's.

Alex45ACP
January 14, 2006, 02:20 AM
Gee... didn't they have something like this awhile back? I seem to recall seeing videos of water cannon in use. Now where and when was it... :rolleyes:

+1... First thing I thought of when I read that too.

Only a matter of time before all these cool gadgets are deployed against US citizens :(

rangerruck
January 14, 2006, 02:31 AM
the mikitary has been workin on a super soaker typ e gun that fires out a goo so slick , that it is impossible to do anything but lay down, you cannot get up, it is a substance that is virtually without friction.

trooper
January 14, 2006, 12:16 PM
water with that kind of force, if for instance it finds a break in the skin can enter and peel flesh right off, opening the perp to infection and amputation or death.

The operator can adjust the pressure and duration. There are guidelines for what amount of power you can use at what distance.


This water gun will kill someone. Just wait. Then, we'll hear all of these church groups in NO bitching about that.

German police have been using them for decades without any legal or medical problems. Sure, being blown off your feet by a water cannon isn't exactly fun (especially during the cold season) but it doesn't kill you either.

Over here we have to deal with riot situations on a regular basis (most of them related to political rallies, demonstrations or sports events), and IMO water cannons are a valuable tool for that line of police work... way more effective than bean-bag rounds and less prone to injure someone.


Trooper

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