[pythonguy]

I am trying to decide between the Kimber Super Match II, Grand Raptor II, or the Colt Special Combat Government 45ACP to add to my collection, and shoot. I'd like some opinions and thoughts on which of these three guns would be best in terms of quality for shooting. I'd like to hear all sides, good and bad, I know the range from $1100 for the Raptor, to $1550 for the Super Match, that is not a problem. I just want the best of the bunch.

[Double Naught Spy]

Colt has some serious and ongoing QC issues. They seem to be getting better, but they are far from resolved. It is my impression that you are more apt to get a bum Colt than a bum Kimber.

Either way, do not buy the gun sight unseen, as from an auction. You want to be able to move the parts and inspect things closely to see just who well things do or do not move and fit. After my experience with getting a Combat Commander XS about 3-4 years ago (not XSE, but XS), I would not buy another Colt 1911 of recent vintage without being able to field strip the gun and seeing what is inside. Mine turned out to look like it was machined by a blind guy. Actually, I have seen the work of a blind machinist that was a lot better than what was reflected inside the Colt's slide. Heck, the ejection port wasn't a smooth rim all the way around, but had two lumps that had not been properly milled during the milling process and nobody ever bothered to remove them during any later stage of production or finishing.

Colt can make an excellent gun. The problem is that while they have the capability, they are not consistent and the inconsistency seems to occur at a much higher frequency than with other brands like Kimber.

Whatever you do, don't buy into Colt hype. Hype doesn't mean squat and will not make your gun function. Things like "If its not a Colt then it is just a copy) seems to imply that no copy could ever be as good as the original. The sad thing is, if it is a Colt, it may be a copy. The 1911 was designed by JMB, not Colt. The AR15 and M16s that went into production to supply the military were made by Colt, but the design is Armalite. Colt was sued and lost for patent infringment and as a result dropped products like their Pocket 9.

[BigG]

Geez, Double Naught, sounds like sour grapes. Colt bought both of those designs from their respective companies. If it were up to ArmaLite, the AR15 would never have been fielded. Similar to the 1911. Browning designed it, Colt made it mass producable. Browning never produced any guns, or very few. He would make a prototype, sell the patent and go back to the workshop. Colt and Winchester bought lots of patents, and later FN.

I have had good luck with Colts and have not witnessed the "serious and on-going QC issues" - sure everybody makes a bad one now and then, but that sounds like a guy who has an agenda.

It pays to inspect whatever you are buying before you put your hard earned money down -Kimber, Colt, whatever; as Double Naught Spy suggests. ;)

[Kramer Krazy]

I prefer Colts and currently have a 1970's Gold Cup, 1981 Officers ACP, 1989 Government, and a 2005 XSE LW Commander. I don't see any issues with the XSE, other than a few MIM parts, and everything seems to be in excellent working order. I've only shot 300-400 rounds through it, so it may get worse, later.....but I always have 1911Tuner to run to if it gives me any issues.....I'll always choose Colt over Kimber. I can't place a finger on it, but I've never been impressed with Kimber's products.

[rick_reno]

I like Kimbers. Good value for the buck.

Have you poked around over at the 1911 forum - lots of opinions there.

http://www.1911forum.com/forums/index.php?s=

[farscott]

I have fired two of the three mentioned pistols (I have not tried the Raptor), and I really did not like either of the two. The Colt Special Combat Government is a Series '80, something that forces the awkward BoMar rear sight install. The rear sight is hanging off the back of the slide, something I cannot abide. I like the BoMar on a Colt, as long as the Colt does not have the Series '80 firing pin system, so the sight can be properly buried in the slide and is properly dehorned. The "Combat" name is marketing only, as the pistol, as delivered, is not suitable for hard use. I carry a Series '70 with a buried and dehorned BoMar, and the difference between my Colt and the SCG is like night and day. Tap, rack, and bang is an experience with the sharp rear sight.

The Kimber Super Match suffers from much of the same problem as the safety plunger is buried under the rear sight, but the sight is somewhat dehorned.

[tech]

I like and own both kimbers and colts. If I was going to spend up to 1500 on a 1911 I would start looking at RRA's. Brown's or Baer's as you could get a used one for that amount. Good luck with whatever you deciede.

Mike

[Brass Balls]

At the price level of a Super Match, I'd get a Baer instead. Under a grand I think the Kimbers are the most consistent 1911s available in fit, trigger pull and accuracy. I like Colt's too, but my collection runs towards older models.

[ArmedBear]

Kimbers are nice guns. However, it is fairly common at my little local pistol range for one to go full-auto. Bam-bam-bam-bam-bam!!! comes from behind the wall, and the guy behind the counter mumbles "Kimber." I'm not sure what causes this.

The same shop, with a very good and very busy 'smith, tried to stop carrying the things because customer/gunsmith service had become very poor, which pissed off customers who'd dropped a grand on a pistol which then broke but couldn't be fixed quickly. Last I looked, they still had 'em. Either customer demand was too great, or Kimber cleaned up their act.

A lot of people like their Kimbers, as you know. I've liked what I've shot. I wanted to buy one, but the shop talked me out of it. They rent Springfields, which take an incredible amount of abuse with little attention, so they like those.

I have not shot a newer Colt, but it does appear that their pricing is coming back in line with reality.:)

I'd nose around and try to get information about Kimber's current customer service situation before I bought. If you hear good things, a Kimber is certainly a nice gun.

[pythonguy]

One good thing with the new Kimbers, they are now using only internal extractors, most complaints seemed to have stemmed from external extractor use. I own a gold match II from Kimber and it is a solid, accurate gun. I also own a Baer Premier II and Colt gold cup trophy, as well as a S&W 1911. I was looking for someting differnt that would retain its value over the years, if not appreciate. I do shoot most of my guns except for a couple of unfired Pythons, and an unfired pre-ban Colt AR-15 Govt carbine.

[paul45]

Colt has some serious and ongoing QC issues. They seem to be getting better, but they are far from resolved. It is my impression that you are more apt to get a bum Colt than a bum Kimber.

Either way, do not buy the gun sight unseen, as from an auction. You want to be able to move the parts and inspect things closely to see just who well things do or do not move and fit. After my experience with getting a Combat Commander XS about 3-4 years ago (not XSE, but XS), I would not buy another Colt 1911 of recent vintage without being able to field strip the gun and seeing what is inside. Mine turned out to look like it was machined by a blind guy. Actually, I have seen the work of a blind machinist that was a lot better than what was reflected inside the Colt's slide. Heck, the ejection port wasn't a smooth rim all the way around, but had two lumps that had not been properly milled during the milling process and nobody ever bothered to remove them during any later stage of production or finishing.

Colt can make an excellent gun. The problem is that while they have the capability, they are not consistent and the inconsistency seems to occur at a much higher frequency than with other brands like Kimber.

Whatever you do, don't buy into Colt hype. Hype doesn't mean squat and will not make your gun function. Things like "If its not a Colt then it is just a copy) seems to imply that no copy could ever be as good as the original. The sad thing is, if it is a Colt, it may be a copy. The 1911 was designed by JMB, not Colt. The AR15 and M16s that went into production to supply the military were made by Colt, but the design is Armalite. Colt was sued and lost for patent infringment and as a result dropped products like their Pocket 9.WOW! An axe to grind or what !? Its funny...I feel about Kimber as you do about Colt. I have purchased several new Colts of late and have a good variety of Colts from 1970 to 2005 and every one of them are very acceptable in terms of fit,finish, and performance. Not to deny your experience, however I very much have had 100% satisfaction with all my Colts. Sadly, I cant say the same for Kimber.

[MICHAEL T]

I would trust a Colt to keep me company on a dark night before a Kimber. JUst look at the real steel verse MIM in parts alone and you willvote Colt the other is a copy.

[Moonclip]

I'd go Colt. It's a legend, no MIM, no external extractor, no series II if you can live with the series 80 stuff.

[brewer90]

I'd go Colt. It's a legend, no MIM, no external extractor, no series II if you can live with the series 80 stuff.

I'm curious - what do you think is better about the Colt's firing pin block versus the Kimber's (ie series 80 vs series II)?

[larry starling]

Colt no questions asked. I have owned several kimbers both early with internal and late with external extractor. I had issues with all three of them. I haven't had any issues with any of the 30+ Colts I own. I don't currently own a Special Combat, But if im not mistaken I believe that there built on series 70 frames....:D

[f4t9r]

I am a big fan of Kimber and had great luck with them !!!!!!

[ajax]

I own at present 10 1911's seven of them are Kimbers. I like Kimber!!!! I've owned a Colt and it was a fine pistol but when things got hot and they sold out so did I. I'm glad they have such good resale it made it easier to get rid of and get my money back. What amuses me are the guys who have owned muliple Kimbers and say they had problems with all of them. I think you guys need to find a 4 leaf clover,hang a horse shoe or something else for good luck because i've never had that kind of trouble with any of my Kimbers.:neener:

[Geno]

I have owned about 10 0r 11 Kimbers, and 3 Colts. I presently own 1 Kimber (Warrior) and 3 Colts. Guess that stands for something.

Whatever you buy, break it completely down. Inspect it COMPLETELY! Top to bottom; inside-out. They don't let you--don't buy it!

If I were to get a new 1911, I think I would BUILD one out of Caspian parts--no MIMs, and Caspians are warranted FOR LIFE!

:)

Doc2005

[CAPTAIN MIKE]

I ended up choosing the Kimber several years ago, but I believe the Colt was a very worthy competitor that deserves respect. You probably can't go wrong with either of them.

[RH45]

You never said what the pistol was to be used for. I think fit and function is the most important, followed closly by what fits your hand the best, followed by what you like the looks of the best.
I own Colt, Kimber, Les Baer, and Ed Brown, and haven't had any issues with any of them. I know several of my fellow shooters have had problems with Kimbers, but, I have been lucky with mine.
If I would have to choose just one(heaven forbid!), I would have to say the Ed Brown would be the keeper, not because it is any more accurate than my Baer, which has the 1 1/2" group guarantee, but, it is soo nice to look at!!

[pythonguy]

I use my pistols for target shooting primarily, and I look for any collector/resale value if possible. I like well made, accurate guns of course, plus since I just collect and target shoot, I enjoy the fine look of great firearms as well. I'm not in a location that permits any type of carry, so guns are a sporting and aesthetic hobby for me. I love range shooting, and I enjoy admiring a solid, well made weapon with that classic, almost "art" type of look. Hard to explain with words, but I bet you all know exactly what I mean.:)

[45auto]

IMO, given what you want it for, I'd buy the Colt...resale value anyway.

But, you sound like a "custom 1911" guy by heart. :)

[10-Ring]

I have owned a couple Colts, a SA & just sold off my Kimber. Of the bunch, I still own & prefer Colts. I'm actually on the verge of another...Out of box, the Colts just seem more solid and have just been nicer :cool: YMMV, good luck on your quest

[palerider1]

i like the colt. i own an xse model 01070 in stainless. i think because of the name you will get better resale value too. i also like colts because of their quality and long history. i have fired over 300 rounds through mine without one single malfunction.

[palerider1]

I ended up choosing the Kimber several years ago, but I believe the Colt was a very worthy competitor that deserves respect. You probably can't go wrong with either of them.


yeah,,,we heard about you and your kimber,,,,,,,,lol :) have a good night captain,,,i just couldnt resist :)

[SwampWolf]

I use my pistols for target shooting primarily, and I look for any collector/resale value if possible. I like well made, accurate guns of course, plus since I just collect and target shoot, I enjoy the fine look of great firearms as well. I'm not in a location that permits any type of carry, so guns are a sporting and aesthetic hobby for me. I love range shooting, and I enjoy admiring a solid, well made weapon with that classic, almost "art" type of look. Hard to explain with words, but I bet you all know exactly what I mean.:)

With the above criteria, I'd strongly consider Smith's Performance Center 945. Of course, it's not a 1911 per se but rather Smith's proven semi-auto chassis with 1911 controls. Beauty might be in the eye of the beholder but, IMO, "art" is an impossible to define (a pleasing proportion of things ?) absolute. In my eyes, at least, the 945 is a "well-made weapon with that classic, almost 'art' type of look." The only thing I'd change about it would be to make the grip angle the same as the 1911. Of course, some argue that that steeper Smith angle contributes to their exemplary reliability reputation (the cartridges being fed from the magazine into the chamber in a more straight-line attitude). I just prefer the aesthetics and the "feel" the 1911 grip angle affords.

[progunner1957]

Colt has some serious and ongoing QC issues. They seem to be getting better, but they are far from resolved. It is my impression that you are more apt to get a bum Colt than a bum Kimber.

I have heard people say the exact same things about Kimber.

I would buy a Colt or Springfield Armory over a Kimber. Why? Workmanship, reliability, less MIM parts - Kimbers are full of MIM parts as a cost-cutting measure, and the main reason: Kimber has the Schwartz safety and Colt and Springfield do not.

The Schwartz safety was invented by Colt in the 1930s and was a failure - Colt ditched it in favor of the series 70 design, and later the series 80 design. Kimber chose the Schwartz safety to avoid paying Colt a licensing fee for use of the series 70/80 design.

I had a Kilmber TLE II that I bought a couple of years back before I was aware of the Schwartz safety issue. The more I read and heard, the less confidence I had in my Kimber, even though I had not yet had any problems.

I recently traded the Kimber for a Springfield "Champion" 1911 (3.9" barrel, full-size frame) in stainless steel.

The frames of the Springfield 1911s are made in Brazil, and are stamped "Made in Brazil" on the underside in front of the trigger guard. Alot of people carp and b*tch about this, but upon disassembling the Champion, I found the workmanship on the frame - as well as the rest of the pistol - to be excellent. I have no complaints about the workmanship on the Champion at all.

About a year ago, I purchased a Colt Combat Commander XSE version in stainless steel. I was very pleased with this pistol - excellent workmanship, very good trigger pull and accuracy, no problems with reliabiliity. I ended up trading it to a friend, who is very happy with it.

IMHO, you can't go wrong with either the Colt XSE 1911s or the Springfield Armory 1911s. Alot of people like Kimbers, but with the Schwartz safety, I just don't trust them.

[Black Majik]

I'd go Colt. It's a legend, no MIM, no external extractor, no series II if you can live with the series 80 stuff.

Actually Colts do have MIM parts, but only a few parts are MIM on a Colt.

From a parts speculation, I'd go with the Colt, Colt uses better parts in their guns than the Kimber (heck most companies use better parts than Kimber). But the chances of a MIM part breaking isn't all that likely. Usually, if the part doesn't break in its early stages, then you're pretty much good to go.

Between Kimber and Colt, its a toss up. Both have serves well as my nightstand gun, I'd trust both. But, I'd try and get a Series I Kimber if you could (not current production pre-series II like the 25th anniversary). I mean a clackamas or earlier production Kimber. Seems that Kimber is having quite a difficult time producing guns that run properly. From the 1911 forum, Kimber definitely tops out on most # of complaints than any other maker. I know they have a high production count, but regardless... their percentage of producing a lemon is still quite high.

Colt, on the other hand, has gotten somewhat better. But they still make a lot of visual mistakes on a 1911 that should not be there. You figure for a company that has been making 1911s for decades they'd get things right. They're NRM Colts are excellent pistols, as well as the XSE and other lines, they run great. But its the asthetic faults on the Colts that bug me. Of course, theres the off drilled recoil plug holes, the overhanging slide from the frame, and the extractor that isn't flush with the rear of the slide. What also bugs me is how sharp those Colts come out. A slight dehorn cant be done to these pistols? Of course to some, the loose slide to frame fit bothers them, others it doesn't. For me, I like my guns to have a good slide to frame fit. Thats where I think Kimber did well in.

Tough call. Kimber vs. Colt. Honestly, I think I'd rather have a working MIMber than a working Colt. That horsey doesn't do me any different than any other quality maker.

The Kimber suits my needs better, even if they make their 1911s with those gawd awful looking grip safeties.

[Guntalk]

I really like Kimbers. Having said that, there are many 1911s out there, and more popping up all the time.

Taurus has a new one.

http://taurususa.com/products/product-details.cfm?model=1911B&category=Pistol