SWAT team shoots suicidal Fla. student


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HighVelocity
January 13, 2006, 03:05 PM
Friday, January 13, 2006 · Last updated 9:40 a.m. PT

SWAT team shoots suicidal Fla. student

THE ASSOCIATED PRESS

LONGWOOD, Fla. -- A suicidal eighth grader who pulled a handgun in class and briefly took another child hostage was shot by a SWAT team member Friday when he threatened deputies, Seminole County officials said.

Sheriff Don Eslinger said the 15-year-old boy brought the gun to Milwee Middle School in his backpack and briefly took a fellow student hostage during a classroom scuffle.

He then ran from the classroom and "traveled with this firearm throughout the campus," Eslinger said. He was pursued by deputies into a restroom, and the school was evacuated.

Eslinger said the boy was suicidal.

"At one time he held the gun to his neck. As the deputies attempted to establish dialogue, he raised the firearm and lethal force was used by the sheriff's office," Eslinger said.

The boy was taken to the hospital. His condition was not immediately known.


The other student was not injured, Eslinger said.

The school is in the Orlando suburbs.



http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_School_Evacuated.html

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El Tejon
January 13, 2006, 03:06 PM
Kids, today's lesson is don't point guns at the police.

wingnutx
January 13, 2006, 03:09 PM
15 year old 8th grader?

Turtle Club
January 13, 2006, 03:24 PM
Police call it "Suicide by COP"

The suspect will make the COPS shoot him. As the article said. He was sucidal. This way if he is the slightest bit religious, he techniqly is not commiting sucide.

He got what he wanted.

MICHAEL T
January 13, 2006, 03:26 PM
Tough call I feel sorry for the officer! Theirs been several stories about cops in Fl useing taser on little kids and then when could possiblely been of use....

TexasRifleman
January 13, 2006, 03:35 PM
Tough call I feel sorry for the officer! Theirs been several stories about cops in Fl useing taser on little kids and then when could possiblely been of use....


When he's holding a gun he's graduated himself from the "little kid" category I'm afraid.

Janitor
January 13, 2006, 03:50 PM
When he's holding a gun he's graduated himself from the "little kid" category I'm afraid.
I agree.

But I still think it will be tough on the cop who got stuck dealing with it though.
-

TexasRifleman
January 13, 2006, 03:54 PM
I agree.

But I still think it will be tough on the cop who got stuck dealing with it though.
-

No question of that, it's a real shame all the way around.

Stinkyshoe
January 13, 2006, 04:18 PM
Look at TV today, and perhaps we can figure out where this kid learned this.

TexasRifleman
January 13, 2006, 04:26 PM
Look at TV today, and perhaps we can figure out where this kid learned this.

How about we look at parents instead. TV is just a handy excuse for bad parenting.

Why not blame teachers,video games and Karl Rove too....


No, it always falls back on parents.

middy
January 13, 2006, 04:31 PM
This way if he is the slightest bit religious, he techniqly is not commiting sucide.
Yeah, that will really pull the wool over G-d's eyes. :rolleyes:

How about we look at parents instead. TV is just a handy excuse for bad parenting.
Absolutely. Well said.

hkOrion
January 13, 2006, 04:31 PM
From Denver 9news.com:

"He was suicidal," Eslinger said. "During this standoff, and during the chase, the student said he was going to kill himself or die."

Classes were canceled for the rest of the day, and frantic parents arrived to pick up their children.

"When I saw the news, I just couldn't believe this was my daughter's school. I came right away," said Anil Santos, whose daughter, Aleister, is in eighth grade.

Sarah Tivy, a seventh grader, said some students were frightened, but she appeared calm.

"I just figured that if someone is going to bring a gun to school, then they need to be taken out of school," the 12-year-old said.

Looks like that 12-year-old is on the right track...

fredcwdoc
January 13, 2006, 04:43 PM
slightest bit religious, he techniqly is not commiting sucide.

BS. Not to sound mean and nasty but it's because he didn't have the sack to do it himself and would rather let some poor LEO live the rest of his life knowing he had to shoot a kid. At least he didn't take a bunch out with him.

Sad story. If he lives maybe he will get the help he needs.

TechBrute
January 13, 2006, 04:58 PM
How about we look at parents instead. TV is just a handy excuse for bad parenting.

Why not blame teachers,video games and Karl Rove too....


No, it always falls back on parents.
Ding ding ding ding... We have a winner!

MechAg94
January 13, 2006, 04:59 PM
This way if he is the slightest bit religious, he techniqly is not commiting sucide.
Well, I don't know if his religion believes that way or not. I suspect he wasn't very religious, but that is just a guess.

Turtle Club
January 13, 2006, 05:02 PM
How about we look at parents instead. TV is just a handy excuse for bad parenting.

Why not blame teachers,video games and Karl Rove too....


No, it always falls back on parents.

I have said it many times. I am sick of people blaming the media i.e.: TV,Movies,Video Games,The News, Internet, ect.

For example: If you watch "Jackass", "Fear Factor" they put a disclaimer at the beginning of the broadcast. Which I think is utterly stupid. A reasonable, articulate, sound minded everyday person would not let random people kick them in the groin or ride a shopping cart down a hill to purposely hit the side of a building or even try to drive a car onto a moving tractor trailer or walk on a bungee cord across two skyscrapers or even eat pig whatever.

Even if I wanted to try a stunt I see on “Jackass” or “Fear Factor” or even pro-wrestling, if I et hurt…that is my fault. I am not going to sue the producer of the television show or media for them “giving me the idea”. Which I see as sad that these morons try these stunts and it gives the media a bad name.

So they are forces to place a disclaimer, and people still are able to sue. And they win.

That is about as pathetic as complaining that McDonald’s made me weigh 250lbs.

I don’t believe impressionable children should be watching those shows anyway. But it is the parents duty to police their activities and what they watch,

That is why I hate the FCC or any other stupid liberal socialist government group that puts the blame everywhere other than where it belongs and that is 90%parents and 30% with the school (yes I know I wrote 90% and 30%).

Lets go back to a55 whipping in school. Maybe that will straighten these little brats out.

BIGPHIL
January 13, 2006, 05:10 PM
Bad parenting is bottom line on all this stuff.


How did religion get brought into this?

Old Fuff
January 13, 2006, 05:10 PM
Since there was a possiblity (and maybe a probably) that this 15 year-old could injure or kill other students, as well as police officers covering the incident, should we expect the police officer not too shoot? I hope that he lives with the knowledge that he might have saved some inocents' lives. Regardless of their intent or motive, these teens that shoot up schools are nothing less then killers - and they should be treated as such. Cry if you must, for they're victims.

fletcher
January 13, 2006, 05:29 PM
Although parenting is probably the most important factor, a bad egg can/will be a bad egg no matter what you do. A certain person in my family was raised the exact same (strict discipline) as his two brothers. He is in constant trouble at school and such, whereas his two brothers never had problems with that sort of thing. IMO - Darwin at work.


More on topic, though: it's fortunate that nobody was hurt other than the kid. Just another reason why teachers should be allowed to CCW.

Turtle Club
January 13, 2006, 05:36 PM
How did religion get brought into this?

I mentioned religion on the fact that commiting suicide is negative no matter what belifs the suspect has. Therefore, if the suspect is religious, if he gets a cop to shoot him and he dies he wont go to "hell", if that is what his religion beleived.

I had mentioned that was this suspect was doing is called "Suicide by COP", since the article had mentioned he was previously suicidal.

I wasnt trying to tact and specific religon, that wasnt my pont. I was simply trying explain the thought process of someone when they decide to 'make cops shoot them'

Thats all.

isa268
January 13, 2006, 05:44 PM
its disturbing that a 15 year old brought a gun so school but what's even more disturbing are some of the comments on Yahoo.com news.

fletcher
January 13, 2006, 05:47 PM
^ I tried unsuccessfully to fend off some of the idiocy on those boards concerning gun control. I agree, it's amazing.

KriegHund
January 13, 2006, 05:50 PM
Its Doom 3's fault. Seriously. Ban it and violence will magicly dissapear.

Gah, im in a sarcastic mood today.

I wish people wouldnt do stupid things like this, makes guns look bad. *sigh*

From Denver 9news.com:



Looks like that 12-year-old is on the right track...

I dunno, any kid that can stay calm when a physco with a pistol is running aorund is pretty strange.

But then, not much you can do, calm or otherwise, if you get a bullet in the kopf, so i guess you should stay calm. If something like that happened to me, i think ide be as pissed off as i would be scared. This person just shows up, threatens to kill some people, ya, im gonna be a little pissed...

erik the bold
January 13, 2006, 07:04 PM
15 year old 8th grader?

Thought they graduated everyone these days.......this one was held back by one or two years ??? :eek:

Krenn
January 13, 2006, 07:28 PM
Originally Posted by Turtle Club
This way if he is the slightest bit religious, he techniqly is not commiting sucide.

Well, I don't know if his religion believes that way or not. I suspect he wasn't very religious, but that is just a guess.

That raises an interesting philosophical question.... If you take an action whose logical consequence is death, and you have no reasonable justificication for doing so, is it suicide?

there must be all sorts of variations on that pattern... for example, leading the charge against a machine gun nest is probably not TECHNICALLY suicide, even though your death is logically guaranteed. after all, SOMEONE will likely accomplish the final mission... and even if they don't, it needed to be tried.

Is refusing to surrender to an enemy soldier who has the drop on you suicide?

is suicide-by-cop suicide?

what factor does premeditation have on this?

is traditional suicide to prevent classified information from being tortured out of you suicide? after all, you do have a reasonable purpose you're trying to achieve...

I wonder what wikipedia has to say about this....

Krenn
January 13, 2006, 07:52 PM
ok, the CATHOLIC church appears to consider suicide-by-cop as suicide.

although a suicidal lay catholic may not be aware of that...

http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14326b.htm

doesn't exactly answer the classified information question, though... although it comes close...

ka50
January 13, 2006, 08:26 PM
why didn't they just taser him or throw in a tear gas inside?

Jake
January 13, 2006, 08:37 PM
Kid had a Airsoft.


http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/13/teen.shot/index.html

ceetee
January 13, 2006, 08:52 PM
The 5:30 news had him in critical condition, but that it was a pellet gun, not airsoft.

KriegHund
January 13, 2006, 08:56 PM
why didn't they just taser him or throw in a tear gas inside?

If someone points a gun at you, and you have a gun in your hand, aimed-
Are you going to back up, and toss teargas into a classroom full of targets?
Are you going to rely on a taser that has a 50/50 failure rate?

Or are you going to take the shot, knowing that by killing the target you could be saving several kids lives?

THINK, man!

pharmer
January 13, 2006, 09:01 PM
Point is it was not a firearm. I have an airsoft USP. It don't look much like the real thing. But if someone pointed it at me suddenly in a high stress environment such as today's, I'd cut loose and feel bad later. Definitely SBC .02$ Joe

ceetee
January 13, 2006, 09:04 PM
If someone points a gun at you, and you have a gun in your hand, aimed-
Are you going to back up, and toss teargas into a classroom full of targets?
Are you going to rely on a taser that has a 50/50 failure rate?

Or are you going to take the shot, knowing that by killing the target you could be saving several kids lives?

THINK, man!

They had him cornered, alone, in a boy's room. No excuses; just makes it worse for the officer who took the shot.

In my day, we called it "Blue Suicide."

palerider1
January 13, 2006, 09:10 PM
thats sad,,,well hopfully he'll survive.

joab
January 13, 2006, 09:14 PM
It was an Airsoft and he died

Here's some more links
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/seminole/orl-bk-school011306,0,1368390.story?coll=orl-sports-col&track=mostemailedlink
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/northamerica/article_1075921.php/Police_officer_shoots_armed_15-year-old_in_Florida_school__Roundup_

Krenn
January 13, 2006, 09:36 PM
They probably refrained from the tear gas because they considered him more a suicide risk than a danger to others... and they guessed wrong. (or were they right?)

we'll find out more.

WillBrayJr
January 13, 2006, 09:37 PM
A person that commits suicide doesn't always mean that they're killing themselves. Take someone with severe depression for example who commits suicide. It's most likely the illness that killed them.

KriegHund
January 13, 2006, 09:42 PM
They had him cornered, alone, in a boy's room. No excuses; just makes it worse for the officer who took the shot.

In my day, we called it "Blue Suicide."

Mm, i should be the one to "THINK"

Teargas was more plasuible in that situation. Taser....not so much.

Though a rubber bullet (which is often fatal) or those rubber ring things, may have been more plausible yet.

WillBrayJr
January 13, 2006, 09:42 PM
It was an Airsoft and he died

Here's some more links
http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/local/seminole/orl-bk-school011306,0,1368390.story?coll=orl-sports-col&track=mostemailedlink
http://news.monstersandcritics.com/northamerica/article_1075921.php/Police_officer_shoots_armed_15-year-old_in_Florida_school__Roundup_


They said it was a pellet gun, Crossman makes replica pellet gun that look surprisingly real. Don't assume it was an airsoft gun.

joab
January 13, 2006, 09:48 PM
The news today had Eslinger holding up the gun next to a Beretta to show the similarity and called it an Airsoft a couple of times, they also announced that the kid had died
I almost never assume anything

From the link I provided
The boy's Airsoft pellet gun had been painted black to 'look like a real gun', Eslinger said, adding that pellet guns are usually pink or red to set them apart from more dangerous weapons.

ceetee
January 13, 2006, 09:54 PM
They may not know the difference between airsoft and a pellet gun.

You know. "They all look alike. Just another reason why all guns (even things that just look like guns) should be banned..."













c.

joab
January 13, 2006, 10:04 PM
Well he was holding it none of us were.
And I know Eslinger well enough to know that he knows guns

Stinkyshoe
January 13, 2006, 10:13 PM
You guys are absolutely right, there is more to it than just tv. Parents are to blame for allowing tv to raise their children. They are to blame for not correcting behavior problems as they arise. It used to be the punishment at school was nothing compared to what awaited a child at home when dad got out the 'board of education'. Now in many places, neither amount to much.

Specifically, I meant that tv on numerous programs act out various dramatic situations with someone commiting or attempting to commit suicide. Although there is a disclaimer for the appropriate age that can handle this, I question whether or not such shows are suitable or anyone(I am not suggesting censorship). I know personally such shows benefit me none, I doubt they are useful for anything.

This was truly a tragic situation. I hope and pray that future situations like this can be prevented.

Standing Wolf
January 13, 2006, 10:40 PM
I'm sure the assault lawyers are already putting the finishing touches on the law suits against the police department for using excessive force, failing to consider the youth's age, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

XLMiguel
January 13, 2006, 10:58 PM
FWIW, I've seen some instances where as local juristictions learn what "Airsoft" is, they are starting to write them into their codes regarding BB gun,s pellet guns, etc., as equivalents.

SWAT, HRT, Air marshalls = firemen. They're called out to deal with an identified threat. They are not there to negotiate, psychoanalyze, counsel or coddle, they're there to neutralize the threat.

This is a sad situation for many reasons, but the kid managed to get himself identifed as a legitimate threat, and he was dealt with accordingly. I infer, from the story, maybe they could have waited him out, but I wasn't there. One would like to think that if they had him cornered in the boy's room, there would be little rationale for storming in and wasting him, but I wasn't there.

Maybe an operative lesson on why one shouldn't point any kind of gun at another unless you're willing to shoot, and just another good reason to teach & practice muzzle control from an early age, eh?

Firethorn
January 13, 2006, 10:58 PM
When I saw the story at work, the part I noticed was that the police representative didn't know yet whether it was a real gun.

How hard is that to check? I could verify in about 10 seconds.

It's too bad the body died, but I'll agree "Suicide by blue".

If I was a cop, I wouldn't keep trying to talk anybody down when they go to point the gun at me, a fellow police officer, or an innocent.

They were being cautious and allowing when they failed to shoot on sight and proceeded to try to talk him down. According to reports, at one point he had the gun pointed at himself.

edit: How much you do want to bet he was on some kind of anti-depressant or other psychotropic drug?

grimjaw
January 14, 2006, 01:29 AM
15 year old 8th grader?

Yeah, I didn't notice that at first, but now that you mention it, that is a little old for the 8th grade. The kid sounds like he more problems than suicidal tendencies.

jmm

joab
January 14, 2006, 01:58 AM
the news is now reporting that he is alive and on advanced life support and that the family does not want his medical condition released

They showed the pellet gun next to a real Beretta 92 and there is no way you could tell the difference enough to bet your life on it.

Friends say that he was supposed to get jumped today by a group of kids when he picked a fight with one of them

Best friends said that he said he hated his life and wanted to die

Has a history as a runaway, was quiet and stayed inside mostly playing games when he wasn't target shooting.

Personally
I think he was a troubled kid that was trying to get out of a beat down the coolest way he could think of and things didn't turn out the way he planned so he went to plan B

Another newspaper is reporting that he threatened to blow up a school bus last year
http://www.sunherald.com/mld/sunherald/news/nation/13623725.htm

CAPTAIN MIKE
January 14, 2006, 02:12 AM
This was a sad case indeed. I'm sure the officer feels terrible, even though he probably did exactly what the protocol says to do when someone appears to be raising a firearm towards you.

Maybe tear gas into the restroom would have worked, maybe not. The news indicates that after the incident was over, it was discovered the boy had a gun that appeared to be real, although it turned out it wasn't.

I'm sorry for the parents of the boy as well as the officer. Tragedies like this seem so unfortunate for everyone involved.

joab
January 14, 2006, 02:16 AM
I don't see how tear gas would have been a better option.

He was threatening to shoot himself, if they had tossed tear gas in he might have just done it.
If that had happened the police would be damned for pushing him over the edge, instead of talking to him

As it is there is a chance that he will live

I wouldn't have your job at twice the pay

jcims
January 14, 2006, 02:17 AM
he the pellet gun next to a real Beretta 92 and there is no way you could tell the difference enough to bet your life on it.

Just saw one of these at Dicks Sporting Goods this evening

http://www.the-gadget-store.co.uk/2005-images/spp99_s.jpg

Semiautomatic, CO2, even had a laser on the accessory rail, 8 gr, 400fps, ~3 ft/lbs

Seems this:

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/d/d0/Fn_fiveseven.gif

Has a bore diameter just a shade over a millimeter larger...28 gr, 2300fps, 320+ft/lbs

ka50
January 14, 2006, 04:41 AM
I'm sure the assault lawyers are already putting the finishing touches on the law suits against the police department for using excessive force, failing to consider the youth's age, et cetera, et cetera, et cetera.

Well... a swat team vs one armed teenage individual inside the bathroom... (presuming with a real gun)

lethal force justified?

swat has so many items they can deploy. Flashbangs, teargas, stingers (grenades with rubber balls), tasers... but they went all out and used the deadliest force in their arsenal. Hah, "smart"...

jtward01
January 14, 2006, 07:49 AM
Point is it was not a firearm. I have an airsoft USP. It don't look much like the real thing. But if someone pointed it at me suddenly in a high stress environment such as today's, I'd cut loose and feel bad later. Definitely SBC .02$ Joe

Some airsoft pistols look amazingly realistic. One of these photos is my Springfield Armory 1911A1 in .45acp. The other is an airsoft 1911A1 I purchased from an Internet dealer. Could you tell which was real and which was the toy during the split second you'd have to decide to shoot/not shoot?

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/jtward01/01my1911.jpg

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/1003/jtward01/airsoft.jpg

1911 guy
January 14, 2006, 09:30 AM
I've got to side with the police on this shoot. The kid had obviously made himself perceived as a threat before hand to get the cops called, then has what looks to be a handgun. I can monday marning quarter back this, but putting myself in their place makes it seem like a not unreasonable reaction.

gremlin_bros
January 14, 2006, 09:42 AM
I've got to side with the police on this shoot. The kid had obviously made himself perceived as a threat before hand to get the cops called, then has what looks to be a handgun. I can monday marning quarter back this, but putting myself in their place makes it seem like a not unreasonable reaction.
in addation to what you said i can add this. cop sees what appeares to be a legiment threat kid raises gun twords officer. officer reacts in accordance to training and drops the kid. the cop did right with what he saw it was a good shoot. i just feel sorry as hell for the cop my prayers go out to him that he will be ok but i doubt he will. this will change his life in ways i cant imagine i fully expect he will wrop out of police work and i figure we will be reading of his death due to depression from shooting a kid and the monday morning quarterbacking the lawyers will pull and the making him relive this over and over again in court. it's bull of course but they will and this good cop will pay the price. it was a good shot.

WillBrayJr
January 14, 2006, 10:25 AM
The report said that the air pistol used a Co2 cartridge. There are a few airsoft pistols that do use them but no airsoft Beretta does. Daisy has a replica of the Beretta M92FS that comes in both 22cal and 177cal. American airguns almost never come with orange tips, atleast not the ones have seen anyways.

Chipperman
January 14, 2006, 11:06 AM
Here's the story from CNN today.
http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/01/13/teen.shot/index.html
====================================================

Deputy shoots teen wielding pellet gun
Teen painted weapon to make it look real, sheriff says


Friday, January 13, 2006; Posted: 8:12 p.m. EST (01:The Seminole County sheriff said his deputies thought this pellet gun was a 9 mm handgun.

The student is on "advanced life support" at Orlando Regional Medical Center, Sheriff Don Eslinger said, adding, "It was a terrible situation."

Eslinger said that the student, Christopher David Penley, painted the brightly colored tip of the pellet gun black to make it look like a real gun.

The sheriff's deputy was a member of the SWAT team and shot the eighth-grader only after the student raised the gun and threatened officers, Eslinger said.

The shooting occurred about 9:30 a.m. at the 1,100-student Millwee Middle School in Longwood, Florida. (Watch the aftermath of the shooting -- 1:54)

The suburban Orlando school was evacuated after the shooting.

The incident began when the teen's fellow students saw a gun in his backpack. The students were planning to tell a teacher about it, the sheriff's office said.

One of the students confronted the teen, who responded by pointing the weapon at the student and putting him in a closet, Eslinger said. The armed teen then fled, and a school resource officer and others gave chase.

Deputies were called to the scene, and the teen led them on a foot chase across campus to an isolated alcove area where police cornered him in a bathroom, the sheriff's office said.

Deputies tried to talk the teen into surrendering, but he refused to speak with them, Eslinger said.

"I'm going to kill myself or I'm going to die somehow," Eslinger quoted the boy as saying. "He refused to even comment. All he said was his first name. He did not drop the firearm."

The student eventually exited the bathroom and pointed the gun at his own head and throat. When he "raised the firearm in a tactical position and pointed it" at one of the SWAT team members, the officer "decided to use deadly force," Eslinger said.

"From what the deputies explained to me, (the teen) was suicidal," the sheriff said.

Florida Department of Law Enforcement investigators, who respond any time an officer fires a gun, determined the teen's weapon was an airsoft pellet gun, which shoot BBs or small paintballs, Eslinger said.

Authorities showed the gun alongside a real 9 mm handgun, and there appeared to be little difference between the two.

The teen's motive was not clear, but authorities were looking into some things from his past, Eslinger said without elaborating.

WillBrayJr
January 14, 2006, 11:44 AM
Looks like a $20.00 springer from Wal-Mart, alittle hard to tell at that angle. I'm sure it's not a gas gun because there isn't a brass charging valve on the bottom of the magazine.

280PLUS
January 14, 2006, 12:00 PM
I'll say it again. I came within a hair's breadth of drawing on an airsoft just a few weeks ago...

My brain was drawing but my arm hadn't moved yet. It looked pretty real to me.

WillBrayJr
January 14, 2006, 12:20 PM
At first glance most airguns whether airsoft or not do look real. I would drop someone for just pointing anything that could be used as a weapon at me and not look back.

pharmer
January 14, 2006, 12:50 PM
Kid is still alive (10:30am).

Turtle Club
January 14, 2006, 02:52 PM
Less lethal force I don't see an option here. For one, the gun may have looked real. Second, even if it was an airgun, if discharged and the BBs hit specific pressure points on the hostage's body at oint blank range, that would cause SERIOUS DAMAGE possibly death.

Less lethal for is in place when thier is little chance of death accuring if the suspects action escilate.

The suspect obviously wanted to hurt himself and his peers. He pointed the gun at the police. With a slip second to make a desicion they fired thus hitting the suspect.

With the fact that the gun looked real in mind, also they did not know when/if he was going to discharge his weapon at them, thus possibly hurting them.

I dont see why you people are even considering less lethal force. It was justified. I mean if he was hold people hostage with a damn baseball bat or a knife, OK!

However, if a man breaks into your home, he has what appears to be a gun. As you investigate and you see him and he point is "gun" (real or not, but you cant tell) at you. Will you do the following:


Stop and get your taser so it will be less lethal becase thats the right thing to do.
Stop to contempate of the gun is real


No, as soon as he points the un at you, through your rights to self defence. Your instinct will say shoot, and you may.

I say this kid got what he deserves. Even if he was 12 or 13. Its all the same when you act like an adult.

joab
January 14, 2006, 05:40 PM
Turtle I agree with your end point (about less than lethal being inappropriate in this case)
but it is obvious that you have not read 0r comprehended the articles posted on the subject.

WillBrayJr
January 14, 2006, 06:20 PM
Well the kid is dead now. If he had emotional problems he didn't really deserve to die. His demons got the best of him. I'm not trying to make an excuse for what he did.

I put up with being teased and bullied for five years, each year getting worse. For the first three years I was bullied because I had difficulty learning. I didn't fight back because I would get beat when I got home. The last two years I was bullied because my birth mother (not my real mother) simply didn't care to provide me with clothes plus I had more than one zit. At this point I would have wen't to jail if I fought back because I was in my mid-teens. The anger does build up inside and if the person can't handle it, the anger explodes. Thoughts of murdering those people did flow through my mind. Those thoughts pulsed through me like gusts of wind hitting you. At year five I wan'ted to take my Crosman 1008 air pistol to school for the sole purpose of dropping it on the desk in the office and asking to be expelled.

Hawkmoon
January 14, 2006, 06:59 PM
Point is it was not a firearm. I have an airsoft USP. It don't look much like the real thing. But if someone pointed it at me suddenly in a high stress environment such as today's, I'd cut loose and feel bad later. Definitely SBC .02$ Joe
I have an airsoft Wilson Combat 1911. If I painted over or removed the orange tip on the barrel, I abslotely defy you or anyone on this forum to distiguish it from a real 1911 from a distance of 10 feet.

BTW -- the kid died.

Hawkmoon
January 14, 2006, 07:02 PM
They may not know the difference between airsoft and a pellet gun.
I don't know the difference. My airsoft shoots pellets.

Are you using the term "pellet gun" to refer to a traditional BB gun that shoots .177" steel BBs?

WillBrayJr
January 14, 2006, 07:10 PM
I don't know the difference. My airsoft shoots pellets.

Are you using the term "pellet gun" to refer to a traditional BB gun that shoots .177" steel BBs?

Airsoft guns shoot 6mm plastic bbs. American bb guns shoot 177cal bbs. Pellet guns mostly shoot lead pellets and sometimes bbs.

WillBrayJr
January 14, 2006, 07:14 PM
I have an airsoft Wilson Combat 1911. If I painted over or removed the orange tip on the barrel, I abslotely defy you or anyone on this forum to distiguish it from a real 1911 from a distance of 10 feet.

I will:D

BTW -- the kid died.

Isn't that what I said above.

Bigreno
January 14, 2006, 07:47 PM
Just to illustrate a point. This is a pic of a kid with an airsoft Glock.

http://img288.imageshack.us/img288/7574/shoot3ol.jpg (http://imageshack.us)

Sad situation all the way around. Feel really bad for the cop as this is going to be a hard thing to live with.

Cosmoline
January 14, 2006, 08:52 PM
The family attorney is now saying that the father had told the police it was just a replica prior to the shooting and tried to gain entrance to the school but was forced back and ignored.

While I can understand the confusion between a painted replica and the real 92, I do question whether sending a small army of officers in response to the threat was a wise decision. Schools and police departments have gotten so geared up since Columbine, their responses tend to take on a life of their own. Whether or not that led to the shooting remains to be seen, but it does appear there were too many layers of red tape between the man who knew it was just a replica pellet gun and the officer who shot the kid.

Cosmoline
January 14, 2006, 08:55 PM
Specifically, I meant that tv on numerous programs act out various dramatic situations with someone commiting or attempting to commit suicide. Although there is a disclaimer for the appropriate age that can handle this, I question whether or not such shows are suitable or anyone(I am not suggesting censorship). I know personally such shows benefit me none, I doubt they are useful for anything.

Blaming TV dramas is one tiny step away from blaming firearms. Watch yourself.

TexasRifleman
January 14, 2006, 09:07 PM
If YOUR kid was somewhere inside that school, and all you knew was some nutcase was running around pointing guns at people, YOU would want this to end EXACTLY the way it did.

I know I would.

You pull this crap at a mall, well there are grownups there, maybe one has a CCW, maybe not, who knows.
You have adults that can think somewhat and deal with it.

You pull this in a school you've violated a whole other level. You can guarantee that in a school no one is in a position to fight back, so the response should be overwhelming.

joab
January 14, 2006, 09:20 PM
The family attorney is now saying that the father had told the police it was just a replica prior to the shooting and tried to gain entrance to the school but was forced back and ignored.In all fairness all the father could tell the police was that the boy owned an airsoft repligun not that that was what was in his hands.
Also as I understand it the school was locked down with students still trapped inside. How did the father know for sure that it was his kid

Optical Serenity
January 14, 2006, 09:24 PM
Sad incident all around...especially for the officer. He did the right thing.

Psssniper
January 14, 2006, 10:16 PM
I wish I would've met you
now it's a little late.
what you could've taught me
I could have saved some face
they think that your early ending
was all wrong
for the most part they're right
but look how they all got strong
that's why I say hey man, nice shot.
what a good shot man.
a man
has gun
hey man
have fun
nice shot
now that the smoke's gone
and the air is all clear
those who were right there
got a new kind of fear
you'd fight and you were right
but they were just too strong
they'd stick it in your face
and let you smell what they consider wrong.
that's why I say hey man, nice shot.
what a good shot man.
a man
has gun
hey man
have fun
nice shot.
I wish I would have met you
I wish I would have met you
I'd say
nice shot.
:banghead:

Mannlicher
January 14, 2006, 11:12 PM
sad for the parents of all involved. I have to side with the cop on this one though. After all the school shootings in America, the police just have to react quickly. Can you imagine the media circus if the kid had killed another student? After reading a lot on this, it seems if its nothing more than 'suicide by cop'. The kid got what he wanted, whether he "deserved" it or not.

ka50
January 14, 2006, 11:17 PM
I wish I would've met you
now it's a little late.
what you could've taught me
I could have saved some face
they think that your early ending
was all wrong
for the most part they're right
but look how they all got strong
that's why I say hey man, nice shot.
what a good shot man.
a man
has gun
hey man
have fun
nice shot
now that the smoke's gone
and the air is all clear
those who were right there
got a new kind of fear
you'd fight and you were right
but they were just too strong
they'd stick it in your face
and let you smell what they consider wrong.
that's why I say hey man, nice shot.
what a good shot man.
a man
has gun
hey man
have fun
nice shot.
I wish I would have met you
I wish I would have met you
I'd say
nice shot.
:banghead:

I wouldn't really use this song for this scenario. Read up history of this song and what it is about.

bow1
January 14, 2006, 11:21 PM
I would sleep just fine, the cop did his job, this kid crossed the line. I work in Law Enforcement you point that sheet at me and I am puting one in your head. I would sleep just fine knowing I am going home to see my kids at the end of the shift and hope like hell I can teach them to do the right thing and never do something as stupid as this.

You second guess your dead, its not our job to weed out mental patients, we react to what scenario we are put in, and this sucks but he took the correct path. The kid, I dont know I would start with the parents.

Keith

Stand_Watie
January 14, 2006, 11:24 PM
...The last two years I was bullied because my birth mother (not my real mother) simply didn't care to provide me with clothes...

Good distinction. Real moms love and take care of their kids. Birth moms don't always.

ka50
January 14, 2006, 11:46 PM
I would sleep just fine, the cop did his job, this kid crossed the line. I work in Law Enforcement you point that sheet at me and I am puting one in your head. I would sleep just fine knowing I am going home to see my kids at the end of the shift and hope like hell I can teach them to do the right thing and never do something as stupid as this.

You second guess your dead, its not our job to weed out mental patients, we react to what scenario we are put in, and this sucks but he took the correct path. The kid, I dont know I would start with the parents.

Keith

True, but kid was inside the bathroom. Scope to see if anyone else is inside besides the kid (using high tech devices, such as robot cameras) and then gas the whole thing, toss a bang and clear it.

This a friggin swat we're talking about.

But no, swat team went to peek inside and got a gun pointed at them... whooptie-doo what a surprise! The field commander of that swat team should be re-trained or replaced to be suited for this kind of duty.

joab
January 15, 2006, 12:20 AM
Newspaper today says that the kid was shot when he exited the restroom.

How is tossing a device meant to confuse and disorient going to be effective on a kid that is confused and disoriented unless your plan is to hasten the kids decision to commit suicide. The only difference would be who fired the shot and what malfeasance cops were accused of.

I wouldn't really use this song for this scenario. Read up history of this song and what it is about.The song is about a guy who killed himself instead of facing up to his crimes. How exactly does it not fit?

ka50
January 15, 2006, 01:41 AM
The song is about a guy who killed himself instead of facing up to his crimes. How exactly does it not fit?

This song is about the guy who was framed for things he didn't do. Instead of having those who framed him get away with it, he believed in his innocence so strongly that he publicly shot himself to make a statement that no one can rule an innocent man.

The bottom line is that the SWAT field commander should've handled the situation in a more efficient manner. This is not wild west.

joab
January 15, 2006, 06:42 AM
This song is about the guy who was framed for things he didn't doYeah and Toookie was innocent also.
There is no proof ever given that Dwyer was framed, perhaps singled out for prosecution but not framed

The bottom line is that the SWAT field commander should've handled the situation in a more efficient manner.How does your training tell you to handle a situation such as this

Turtle Club
January 15, 2006, 03:18 PM
Would it make any differance to some of you if it were an adult? I see many post saying they should have handled it differently however I see no solutions on how it possibly could have been handled.

k_dawg
January 15, 2006, 06:35 PM
lest we forget:

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=173625&highlight=pellet+gun

WICHITA, Kan. Dec 29, 2005 — A woman who died after a car crash had been shot in the heart minutes earlier with a pellet gun that her 14-year-old son received as a Christmas gift, police said.


even if the cop KNEW it was a pellet gun, its still a lethal weapon, and should be treated as such.

WillBrayJr
January 15, 2006, 06:46 PM
Airsoft guns are not lethal unless you point it at the wrong person like the kid who was just shot did. Airsoft guns can cause harm and should be treated with responsibility. American airguns however are potentially lethal because they fire metal and not plastic.

Jeff White
January 15, 2006, 07:04 PM
ka50 said;
The bottom line is that the SWAT field commander should've handled the situation in a more efficient manner. This is not wild west.

ka50,
Please post your resume. When did you graduate your police basic class? Where was the academy at? How many years did you work patrol or other assignments before you were assigned to a tactical team? Where did you take your basic SWAT class and when? Was it a 5 day or 10 day course? How many hours a month does your team train (assuming it's not a full time unit)? How many call outs a year does your team do on the average? How many years did you serve on the team before you were given command? After you were given command, what courses and in-service training have you attended? Are you an NTOA member?

After you fill us in on your training and experience in these matters, please tell us what you would have done. You only get the resources that were available to the officers who handled the situation. So perhap you could call the agency involved and talk professional to professional with the on scene commander and get his take and perhaps a copy of their after action review and reports. Once you've done this homework, give us your solution to the problem.

Jeff

DevLcL
January 15, 2006, 07:05 PM
Its funny to me how LEOs are allowed to carry firearms because of their 'extensive firearms training' but you hear cases like this all the time. Everytime I watch cops and a firearm is involved the LEO usually says something about the firearm which is completely un-true. The other day I was at the gunshop and a plain clothes officer walked in (badge on belt) and asked a rediculous question. I forget exactly what the question was but it was one of those 'I'm trying to sound like I know what I'm talking about' questions. I was stading right there and the clerk happen to notice I had overheard it and looked at me and winked... it was funny.

Now, of course, I'm not saying officers should sit there and try to find a make and caliber of a weapon before they decide its dangerous. The kid probably took the little orange thing of the end (if it even had one) and so it probably did look very real. However it seems in this case they had lots of time to talk with the kid and see the gun. (especially when he pointed it at his own head)

I guess my point is this... Most serious gun owners, or any father of a kid with a toy gun, would most likely see what was going on and quickly ease the situation.

WICHITA, Kan. Dec 29, 2005 — A woman who died after a car crash had been shot in the heart minutes earlier with a pellet gun that her 14-year-old son received as a Christmas gift, police said.

A woman with a 14 year old kid on christmas is COMPLETELY different then a trained full grown physically fit LEO. Most people in this condition would shrug off an airgun shot to the heart. ( I know from experience LOL)


I wasn't there. I don't know. Its a shame for the officer because now he knows he shot a kid with a pellet gun. I don't think there were any other kids around at the time of the shooting becuase the school had been evacuated. The LEO was probably nervous as a lost puppy (as I would be) and he feared for his life. I'm not saying what he did was wrong at all... but I'm sure he does.

Edit: Bottom line, kid was a bad egg. Even if the situation was handled in a way where nobody got hurt, the kid would probably end up doing something similar again and again until he died.

Also, I re-read the articles and it further re-inforces my belief that there was not an immediate threat to other students. The kid was cornered in an evacuated bathroom at the moment of the shooting. I'm sure all the teachers took the kids far away and the ones in the bathroom were probably escorted by LEOs to the other students. Public school bathrooms are usually lined with tile or some other type of hard waterproof material. Even if the kids gun was real I doubt a 9mm (or any pistol caliber) would really endager any other students. The "use of deadly force" by the SWAT team (I'd think) would be more of a danger. It's a tough call all the way around. I wasn't there and I've never had any LEO training so this is all just my uneducated opinion. One that I think most people with a little common sense would agree with given this vauge information.

-Dev

joab
January 15, 2006, 07:13 PM
The school had not been evacuated and other kids were nearby

You also need to read the articles provided

WillBrayJr
January 15, 2006, 08:04 PM
Its funny to me how LEOs are allowed to carry firearms because of their 'extensive firearms training' but you hear cases like this all the time. Everytime I watch cops and a firearm is involved the LEO usually says something about the firearm which is completely un-true. The other day I was at the gunshop and a plain clothes officer walked in (badge on belt) and asked a rediculous question. I forget exactly what the question was but it was one of those 'I'm trying to sound like I know what I'm talking about' questions. I was stading right there and the clerk happen to notice I had overheard it and looked at me and winked... it was funny.

Now, of course, I'm not saying officers should sit there and try to find a make and caliber of a weapon before they decide its dangerous. The kid probably took the little orange thing of the end (if it even had one) and so it probably did look very real. However it seems in this case they had lots of time to talk with the kid and see the gun. (especially when he pointed it at his own head)

I guess my point is this... Most serious gun owners, or any father of a kid with a toy gun, would most likely see what was going on and quickly ease the situation.



A woman with a 14 year old kid on christmas is COMPLETELY different then a trained full grown physically fit LEO. Most people in this condition would shrug off an airgun shot to the heart. ( I know from experience LOL)


I wasn't there. I don't know. Its a shame for the officer because now he knows he shot a kid with a pellet gun. I don't think there were any other kids around at the time of the shooting becuase the school had been evacuated. The LEO was probably nervous as a lost puppy (as I would be) and he feared for his life. I'm not saying what he did was wrong at all... but I'm sure he does.

Edit: Bottom line, kid was a bad egg. Even if the situation was handled in a way where nobody got hurt, the kid would probably end up doing something similar again and again until he died.

-Dev

The kid was mentally ill and that doesn't make him "a bad egg". Students knew he was bullied, his parents more than likely knew he was bullied, and I'm sure that the school knew it too and yet nothing was done to help him.
The kid is at fault for taking an airgun to school and pointing it at LE. This all could have been avoided if adults stopped the bullying and got the kid mental health treatment. The end result with this case is neglect and stupidity.

45Broomhandle
January 15, 2006, 09:16 PM
As the in-between-guy of a discussion on this forum I suppose it's your right, maybe even expected duty, to chastise we posters' for SOME of our comments. However, I thought you were a bit rough on ka50 just because he EXPRESSED AN OPINION that many other readers agreed with. I'm sure you did not mean to infere that all who hold that opinion shouldn't open their mouths without first becoming an LEO. Or did you?

I'm in the teleservices business and daily hear opinions from every stratum of our world's population - at least those with access to a phone. Have you ever criticized YOUR phone service? Should I then suggest that you please not opine on the subject until you've spent over 10 years in the business, including endless hours of training from all the major phone companies and credit card companies?

I've really enjoyed, learned from, and appreciated the THR forums, but if I thought that at any time my opinions expressed herein might be attacked so vociferously publicly, holding me up to ridicule in front of a rather large audience, I would certainly avoid any further contact.

The above is my opinion. Like several other posters, I agree with ka50. Am I in trouble with you, or THR???

http://img498.imageshack.us/img498/9238/fouremblems1ax.jpg

The above emblems are also my opinion. I certainly hope they are acceptable.

PILMAN
January 16, 2006, 12:44 AM
Some airsoft guns look extremely realistic

http://img35.imageshack.us/img35/7813/p10100894de4ge.jpg

Those are mine. The m4 is full metal with a real aimpoint attached to it, The Tec-9 has a steel barrel and polymer grip, the tec-9 is ABS plastic however you can add a steel slide (which I plan to do) even has full HK logos and of course the silver Desert Eagle which the orange tip is still on it.

Jeff White
January 16, 2006, 05:30 AM
45Broomhandle,

I wasn't the least bit hard on ka50. If ka50 wants to suggest that commander on the scene should have taken a different course of action, then he (or any other member for that matter) should be prepared to tell us what experience he has that made him form that opinion and be able to offer an alternate course of action.

How else are we to judge if he's right or just blowing smoke. Anyone can sit at his keyboard an hide his identity behind a screen name and type anything he/she wants to. To make the suggestion that another course of action should have been taken, based soley on the meager, unreliable and incompete information in a news article is just venting. Other members who have felt that the shooting was wrong have suggested alternatives and other members are discussing why those alternatives, may or may not work. That's civil discussion which is what we try to have here at THR. These threads usually go on for 100+ posts and they usually end up with the membership divided into two camps, the discussion loses any semblance of civility and the thread is closed, maybe with one or more members banned because they lost their temper.

In an earlier post, ka50 said this:

Scope to see if anyone else is inside besides the kid (using high tech devices, such as robot cameras) and then gas the whole thing, toss a bang and clear it.

This a friggin swat we're talking about.

Does anyone know if the SWAT team in question had access to these devices? Robot cameras are very expensive, just because you saw one on Texas SWAT last week doesn't mean every agency in the country has one. If they didn't have one, where was the closest one? Did they even have a mutual aid agreement with the agency that owned it to use it if they needed it? If they did in fact have a mutual aid agreement with the agency that owned one, what would it's response time have been?

As for the suggestion of using gas, does anyone know what kind of gas the team in question had available? Was it aerosol or incendiary? What was the ventilation system in the building like? How long would it have taken to evacuate the school?

As for deploying a distration device, what was the condition of the bathroom where the boy was? Were there possible hazards from secondary missiles? How big was the bathroom? Any chance that they could have permanently damaged the boy's hearing? What if they only had the Def Tec 25 and there was a danger the body of the device could hit the boy in such a confined space?

If you don't know the answers to questions like that then you shouldn't make imflammatory comments like this:

But no, swat team went to peek inside and got a gun pointed at them... whooptie-doo what a surprise! The field commander of that swat team should be re-trained or replaced to be suited for this kind of duty.

I see nothing wrong with being challenged to present your bona fides when you make statements like that.

I am in no way, shape or form suggesting that you have to have experience to have an opinion. I do think that we are entitled to know from what knowledge and experience base that opinion is drawn from.

I would fully expect you to ask me exactly what I knew about the telecommunications business were I to opine that the chief engineer at my local phone company should be replaced, based on a newspaper article.

Jeff

TrapdoorBilly
January 16, 2006, 07:06 AM
[B]
I'm in the teleservices business and daily hear opinions from every stratum of our world's population - at least those with access to a phone.

IOW, one of those creeps that always calls at dinner time.


I've really enjoyed, learned from, and appreciated the THR forums, but if I thought that at any time my opinions expressed herein might be attacked so vociferously publicly, holding me up to ridicule in front of a rather large audience, I would certainly avoid any further contact.


Would you like some cheese with your whine?

ka50
January 16, 2006, 07:12 AM
45Broomhandle,

I wasn't the least bit hard on ka50. If ka50 wants to suggest that commander on the scene should have taken a different course of action, then he (or any other member for that matter) should be prepared to tell us what experience he has that made him form that opinion and be able to offer an alternate course of action.

How else are we to judge if he's right or just blowing smoke. Anyone can sit at his keyboard an hide his identity behind a screen name and type anything he/she wants to. To make the suggestion that another course of action should have been taken, based soley on the meager, unreliable and incompete information in a news article is just venting. Other members who have felt that the shooting was wrong have suggested alternatives and other members are discussing why those alternatives, may or may not work. That's civil discussion which is what we try to have here at THR. These threads usually go on for 100+ posts and they usually end up with the membership divided into two camps, the discussion loses any semblance of civility and the thread is closed, maybe with one or more members banned because they lost their temper.

In an earlier post, ka50 said this:



Does anyone know if the SWAT team in question had access to these devices? Robot cameras are very expensive, just because you saw one on Texas SWAT last week doesn't mean every agency in the country has one. If they didn't have one, where was the closest one? Did they even have a mutual aid agreement with the agency that owned it to use it if they needed it? If they did in fact have a mutual aid agreement with the agency that owned one, what would it's response time have been?

As for the suggestion of using gas, does anyone know what kind of gas the team in question had available? Was it aerosol or incendiary? What was the ventilation system in the building like? How long would it have taken to evacuate the school?

As for deploying a distration device, what was the condition of the bathroom where the boy was? Were there possible hazards from secondary missiles? How big was the bathroom? Any chance that they could have permanently damaged the boy's hearing? What if they only had the Def Tec 25 and there was a danger the body of the device could hit the boy in such a confined space?

If you don't know the answers to questions like that then you shouldn't make imflammatory comments like this:



I see nothing wrong with being challenged to present your bona fides when you make statements like that.

I am in no way, shape or form suggesting that you have to have experience to have an opinion. I do think that we are entitled to know from what knowledge and experience base that opinion is drawn from.

I would fully expect you to ask me exactly what I knew about the telecommunications business were I to opine that the chief engineer at my local phone company should be replaced, based on a newspaper article.

Jeff


It's called common sense. Robot cameras are just remote control platform with a camera attached. Can't be more than a couple of grand. If they didn't have this, then again, this is a fault of swat team management and commanding staff. Incompetence still shines through, whichever way you put it. To evacuate school takes about 7-10 minutes. Banging the kid with a flashbang is still much better than putting a bullet through his brain. I'm pretty sure tear gas would be enough, though. And claims that SWAT team has no tear gas is like saying that police officer is on duty naked. It then becomes not a SWAT team, but "we stand around with big guns scratching our asses" team.

The bottom line the kid is dead and the supposedly elite police unit did not accomplish it's mission to dissolve the situation, instead it used deadliest force in their arsenal. Any questions?

Janitor
January 16, 2006, 08:18 AM
ka50 - near as I can tell from the articles, the LEO team was outside the restroom when the kid exited, and pointed his gun at one of the officers. They hadn't gone in after him.

I wonder what the buzz around here would be if somebody had tossed a flashbang into the restroom and the kid died from the explosion, or a heart attack or something. Would we be back to screaming for bean bag guns?

How about if there were another kid in the restroom that they didn't know about?

I have an airsoft Wilson Combat 1911. If I painted over or removed the orange tip on the barrel, I abslotely defy you or anyone on this forum to distiguish it from a real 1911 from a distance of 10 feet.
Even more to the point - the LEO didn't need to simply see if it was a real gun. He had to try and see if it was a real gun in a real force situation while he also needed to worry about innocent lives (his included).

We can evacuate the school in 3-7 minutes. The boy who had pointed the trigger at the cop could have pulled the triger in 3-7 milliseconds. Add just a couple milliseconds more, and it could have been somebody elses child that the gun was pointed at. Think quickly. That's all the boy and the situation allowed the officer.

I hope the cop can sleep at night - this was not a position I would ever wish anyone to find themselves in. Just as I was on page one of this thread, I'm still convinced the LEO did what he was trained to do and what he had to do. We do not pay these guys to stand there and play target.
-

TrapdoorBilly
January 16, 2006, 09:28 AM
The bottom line the kid is dead and the supposedly elite police unit did not accomplish it's mission to dissolve the situation, instead it used deadliest force in their arsenal. Any questions?

Seems like they dissolved the situation to me.

FXR
January 16, 2006, 11:42 AM
I'm on ka50's side of this issue; it's a legitimate question to raise.

A person who carries a firearm, and uses it to extinguish a human life, had better get used to having others second-guess their actions. That applies to LEOs, soldiers, and the rest of us who are neither.

As for having some amount of minimum credentials necessary to raise the question, I don't buy the argument. This is a discussion forum and we discuss. Nothing we conclude here will affect the officer who did the shoot. In the "real world", the officer's actions will be reviewed by his superiors (who, presumably, are qualified) and those informed judgments are the ones that will affect the officer's career.

I've no doubt that it was a "good shoot." But :cuss: we need to learn, as a society, how to deal with kids who need help, not a bullet. There just aren't any easy answers.

K

Missashot
January 16, 2006, 12:45 PM
Such a sad situation.
I really wish that these kids would quit doing stupid stuff. :banghead:
I know that there are just some inherently bad kids out there.
But with the jumped increase in teen violence, I can't help but to wonder if the parents are a part of the kid's life, or they just let the kid do whatever that they want to. That includes watching crap on TV that would be best not viewed by teens. (Or anyone else for that matter.) Kids are very impressionable especially in their teen years. I just wish that more of them had stable environments to grow up in. I really think that it would help.
I really do not see the situation getting any better any time soon though.:(

k_dawg
January 16, 2006, 01:07 PM
one of the real-criticisms about Columbine was, the police waited a long time before going in. During that time, several kids died of their wounds.

It's easy to sit behind a computer, and say, the LEO's should have waited.. but you have the luxury of hindsight.

And the end of the day, the responsibility lies with the young adult who brought a realistic firearm to school.

TheEgg
January 16, 2006, 01:45 PM
Sounds like a good shoot to me, albeit a very sad situation for all involved.

As for some of our younger posters, you need to learn the difference between an 'airsoft' gun and a pellet gun -- they are not the same thing. Some 'real' pellet guns can throw a .22 or .25 caliber lead slug at more than 1,000 fps -- lethal as hell, particulary at short distances.

And oh yeah, I am never going to criticize George Bush again, 'cus I have never been President.:rolleyes:

roo_ster
January 16, 2006, 02:22 PM
Nah, you don't have to have a resume chock full of military & police experience to express criticism...but it helps. Think of Aristotle's Rhetoric: logos, pathos, & ethos.

We do know a few things:
1. Kid had what looked like a gun
2. Kid was in a school
3. Kid was disturbed/unstable
4. Other children were still present, though locked down
5. Kid pointed his gun at an officer
6. Officer perceived the threat and responded

What don't we know, yet?:
1. What was behind the officer. Open field, impenetrable barrier, or kindergarten full of hemophiliac children?
2. What was the construction of the interior walls. Cinder block or drywall or what?
3. What the police were planning to do. Perhaps they planned on using some sort of mobile robot, CS, or other wonderful technical solution du jour?
4. How much time they had to plan & respond. Did they have time to deploy assets other than those carried by individual members? What were those assets?

IMO, the shooting officer(s) did the right thing, given the what we know of the knowledge they had.

Just who here would not respond in a similar threat, especially if you know that other kids were still in the building?

GEM
January 16, 2006, 03:16 PM
The student eventually exited the bathroom and pointed the gun at his own head and throat. When he "raised the firearm in a tactical position and pointed it" at one of the SWAT team members, the officer "decided to use deadly force," Eslinger said.

If this is true, then the shooting was tragic but justified. There will be pain all around. The officer will certainly suffer. I hope that department has good policies for such.

Might they have glued the door shut and then starved him out? Perhaps, but this was a dynamic situation. If they talked to him and then he came out in a threatening way - there is no other real choice.

Manedwolf
January 16, 2006, 04:24 PM
I have said it many times. I am sick of people blaming the media i.e.: TV,Movies,Video Games,The News, Internet, ect.

For example: If you watch "Jackass", "Fear Factor" they put a disclaimer at the beginning of the broadcast. Which I think is utterly stupid. A reasonable, articulate, sound minded everyday person would not let random people kick them in the groin or ride a shopping cart down a hill to purposely hit the side of a building or even try to drive a car onto a moving tractor trailer or walk on a bungee cord across two skyscrapers or even eat pig whatever.

Even if I wanted to try a stunt I see on “Jackass” or “Fear Factor” or even pro-wrestling, if I et hurt…that is my fault. I am not going to sue the producer of the television show or media for them “giving me the idea”. Which I see as sad that these morons try these stunts and it gives the media a bad name.

So they are forces to place a disclaimer, and people still are able to sue. And they win.

That is about as pathetic as complaining that McDonald’s made me weigh 250lbs.

I don’t believe impressionable children should be watching those shows anyway. But it is the parents duty to police their activities and what they watch,

That is why I hate the FCC or any other stupid liberal socialist government group that puts the blame everywhere other than where it belongs and that is 90%parents and 30% with the school (yes I know I wrote 90% and 30%).

Lets go back to a55 whipping in school. Maybe that will straighten these little brats out.


Good shirt: http://www.zestuff.com/product_image.php?imageid=170

Manedwolf
January 16, 2006, 04:27 PM
Airsoft guns are not lethal unless you point it at the wrong person like the kid who was just shot did. Airsoft guns can cause harm and should be treated with responsibility. American airguns however are potentially lethal because they fire metal and not plastic.

BTW, according to all recent news reports, the kid had deliberately painted the gun's red tip black to make it look real.

That is NOT an accident on his part. His intent was clear.

Jeff White
January 16, 2006, 09:32 PM
ka50 said;
It's called common sense. Robot cameras are just remote control platform with a camera attached. Can't be more than a couple of grand.

Well I can see by your extensive experience in these matters, you've developed enough common sense to know where you can buy a robot suitable for SWAT use for a couple of grand. How about sharing that info with the rest of us. My chief would be particularly interested. They are trying to get the cost down to about $30,000.00

http://www.nlectc.org/jpsg/robotassessment/appendixa.html

Most available devices are much more expensive.

If they didn't have this, then again, this is a fault of swat team management and commanding staff.

Well it would be wonderful to have an unlimited budget. When was the last time you showed up at a city council meeting and demanded your taxes be raised so that the department could buy a robot? Please copy us with the letters you've written to your elected representatives demanding a tax increase... :eek:

To evacuate school takes about 7-10 minutes.

How do you know this? Were the kids locked down in their rooms? What are the school district's procedures for an active shooter? What is the physical layout of the school was it possible that they might have had to move past a danger area where the boy was?

There is no way that you can make a statement like that without firsthand knowledge of the situation. Anyone can sit there in the comfort of his desk chair and pull any scenario out of his head and post it on an internet forum.

Banging the kid with a flashbang is still much better than putting a bullet through his brain.

So when the boy walked out of the bathroom and pointed his weapon at the officer, the officer should have thrown a flashbang at him?

I'm pretty sure tear gas would be enough, though.

And again I ask you, what knowledge you possess that makes you pretty sure tear gas would have been enough? What's the layout of the building? What is the ventilation system in the building like? What kind of gas did they have available to them? Until you can answer those questions, you're just making WAGs.

What if they had introduced gas into the bathroom and the boy would have come out pointing his weapon at the officers? Wouldn't the results have been the same?

The bottom line the kid is dead and the supposedly elite police unit did not accomplish it's mission to dissolve the situation, instead it used deadliest force in their arsenal.

When you talked professional to professional with the team commander, did he tell you that this was their plan? How do you know that that's what they intended to do? Can you say for certain that they weren't in the process of preparing to make contact with the boy when he came out of the bathroom and pointed his gun at the officer? Do you know if a crisis negotiator was on scene or enroute?

The fact is, and all of your WAGs and speculation won't change it, is that the boy sealed his own fate when he chose to exit the bathroom and point his weapon at the officer. There is only one person responsible for this boy's death, and that's the boy himself. No one will ever know if this was a suicide by cop or exactly what motivated the boy to come out pointing his weapon, But you're not in any position to judge the actions of the SWAT team based on the information in the news articles. And unless you actually know enough about how these situtations are handled, what the unit's SOPs and TTPs for that type of situation are, you're still just making WAGs....

Jeff

pete f
January 17, 2006, 01:11 AM
First of all, 8th grade plus 6 year old start means median age of 8th graders is 14, so depending on his birthday and his start age, being 15 is not off the curve and does not place him as being "behind" Also in many southern states, boys are held behind a year to start school intentionally, because when they get to high school it gives them a leg up in athletics. This is how you get 20 year old seniors and 21 year old College football players.

Second. I know there are fiber optic hand held devices and cameras that are available for under a few grand. Now, think too, you are spending 59 bucks a shot on flash bang grenades and CS gas canisters for stopping people. Lets get over cost of equipment, most police dept. (flame proof suit on) have the money for something like this, or at least a regional response unit if not the local cop shop. I see what kind of money gets spent in my local PD, and on what, and yes it may have good intentions, but on a cost benefit analysis, lots of things have to get weighed over gee whiz factor vs practical utility.

Third. the kid is in a bathroom, ALL kids bathrooms in schools tend to be pretty substantial places. This is a matter of design, Middle schools are built as a matter of design to be child proof. bomb proof, little punk with no mama proof. Now think about it, more than likely in a florida school, this kid is in a block or concrete walled room. Where he is, is the safest place in the school to keep him. now that same confined space, with block walls and echoic tile walls, is just what the dr ordered for optimum use of a flash bang, even if he had a room full of kids in there, and a flash bang goes off, they are comiing out alive. They may stumble nad fall and say "WHAT" a lot. but it would have beat taking a shot.

fourth, the kids has a gun. period, NO ONE can have said what he held would not have been eyeballed as a gun from anything over ten feet. This is a reason my son does not have one...lots of his friends do and they play with them a lot. But this was used to point out to my son why having one is not a good idea.

Fifth. I do not think that anything I have seen on TV or read in the paper has given me the indication of bad parenting.

sixth. Bullying is getting to be a big problem. much bigger because no fighting is ever allowed. Teachers I know say fights still occur but for the most part, the school policies of preventing fighting and discouraging "violence" has infact intensified the roll bullying has taken. Thinking that recess was a place for violence to happen, recess has been eliminated. Instead that recess was a place for growing boys to get animosity and aggression out of their systems. Kids are not given an outlet for what is naturally going on in their bodies. when it is confined, pressure develops, and things blow. somekids hit drugs, some hit booze, some it just releases in other ways, sports, music, theatre. but in some kids, it results in a feeling that the only way to fix things, is to resort to hitting things. In my life, it was a fist to the nose. Now it is a gun.

Suicide by cop may still be suicide, but in the demented mind of a kid (or Adult) under pressure, It may be a way to escape that feeling that suicide is a sin. yeah the cop is getting a bad rap here. I think from a monday morning quarterback he is a getting a bad rap. But I also think maybe the PD needs to examine what happened and wonder about tactics if they may have better options if they think about it .

joab
January 17, 2006, 01:18 AM
Fifth. I do not think that anything I have seen on TV or read in the paper has given me the indication of bad parenting. How about the fact that this was not an isolated incident.
He had run away several times plus he had already threatened to blow up a school bus that had a kid that he didn't like on it.

As far as bullying, he was the one that wanted to fight a kid for taking his girlfriend

Now think about it, more than likely in a florida school, this kid is in a block or concrete walled room.you obviously have not been to one of our schools.

Also in many southern states, boys are held behind a year to start school intentionally, because when they get to high school it gives them a leg up in athletics. This is how you get 20 year old seniors and 21 year old College football players.I went to school and played football in Fla, my father was a football, track and basketball( at different times) coach Fla, My oldest son played football and wrestled in Fl., My sisters both ran track in Fla schools, I have never heard of this practice

pete f
January 17, 2006, 04:43 AM
My parents now live in florida. i have a house there, too. i have cousins by marriage all thru the south, tennessee, mississippi, alabama and texas. I would say over half of the kids were either started late or repeated in grade to make sure they were "late kids" It is a term I have heard several times, he is a late 3 rd grader. meaning he has stayed behind a year to get a year older.

In the area my parents are in, all the schools are Block or concrete. interior and exterior walls. My wife and I spent a lot of time looking because we were debating moving there full time and wanted to see what the schools were like. In the gulf coast florida area below Tampa, every school building we went in was block. protection from storms and insects. that is what i was told. One school official even told me, dry wall should be outlawed in that climate.

In the news i had heard, there was no mention that he had any interactions with the law or school security/discipline prior to the events leading to his death.

joab
January 17, 2006, 09:44 AM
n the news i had heard, there was no mention that he had any interactions with the law or school security/discipline prior to the events leading to his death.
Several reports show him having a runaway history and tell of hie threat to blow up a bus last year.
He had only recently returned to the school from a "charter school" (short bus) for disciplinary problems.

In the area my parents are in, all the schools are Block or concrete. interior and exterior walls. My wife and I spent a lot of time looking because we were debating moving there full time and wanted to see what the schools were like. In the gulf coast Florida area below Tampa, every school building we went in was block. protection from storms and insects. that is what i was told. One school official even told me, dry wall should be outlawed in that climate.
Maybe it should be illegal, but it certainly isn't.
The Milwee I knew was a post WWII era "bomb proof" building in the 90s it was rebuilt as were many, with shoddy workmanship typical of Central Fla.
Eslinger's own building had to be practically rebuilt after years of fighting with the contractor. I believe it was the same contractor

My parents now live in Florida. i have a house there, too. i have cousins by marriage all thru the south, Tennessee, Mississippi, Alabama and teas. I would say over half of the kids were either started late or repeated in grade to make sure they were "late kids" It is a term I have heard several times, he is a late 3 rd grader. meaning he has stayed behind a year to get a year older. I would have to see a link on the phenomenon. Like I said my family has extensive history with school sports in central Fla and I have never heard or seen this practice. Our kids are held back alot because they are pretty dumb.

My ex and I held our youngest back because he was an "early kid". Meaning he started early due to his July birthday And due to heart defect and a midget mother he was also smaller than the other kids and never fit in causing his grades to suffer. He was held back in order to be put with his own age group that happens often enough that I have heard of it but not for sports which just aren't that important here.

TechBrute
January 17, 2006, 10:33 AM
I'm pretty much the king of second guessing the cops and looking on their institution in a generally dim light.

However...

I don't really feel that the cop in this situation had any sort of obligation to have special mental telepathy, robots, fiber optics, etc. He was trying to protect himself and those around him. Stupid kid comes out, waves a gun, gets shot. Case closed. The fact that the gun wasn't real only came out after the fact, and every indication is that the kid took steps to ensure that the gun would look as real as possible. It's too bad that darwin had to make such a scene with this one. I'd prefer that the stupid ones don't affect those around them when they meet the survival of the fittest law.

I feel for the person that shot the kid. I think it was justified, although this type of second guessing by mostly ignorant internet patrons is to be expected, and is useful as part of a society. I can't imagine the feelings the person must be experiencing as a result, and I would bet he is second guessing his own actions more than anyone else.

As an aside, since this kid apparently painted the toy gun's red tip black, shouldn't we have a law to prevent that? :banghead: Also, I would think that painting a real gun's tip red might really throw the wrench at the cops if you used the gun in some sort of hostage/robbery/standoff situation.

Janitor
January 17, 2006, 10:56 AM
As an aside, since this kid apparently painted the toy gun's red tip black, shouldn't we have a law to prevent that? Also, I would think that painting a real gun's tip red might really throw the wrench at the cops if you used the gun in some sort of hostage/robbery/standoff situation.
My feeling on it is that the LEO should still have shot, even if the kid hadn't painted the muzzle black. One fear I have is that cops (any given cop) will hesitate at a life threatening moment because of an orange muzzle. Solely because of what you mentioned. I believe we've already had more than one incident of a bad guy doing just that - painting the muzzle on a real pistol orange.

I would bet he is second guessing his own actions more than anyone else.
My guess is that you're spot on. Once again ... I hope this LEO can sleep at night. Only he and others that were there know for sure if this was a good shoot. If it was (and it certainly sounds like it) - I hope he's not beating himself up over it and that he's getting support from his peers/superiors if he needs it. Nobody should be thrust into a situation like that one.

WillBrayJr
January 17, 2006, 11:00 AM
BTW, according to all recent news reports, the kid had deliberately painted the gun's red tip black to make it look real.

That is NOT an accident on his part. His intent was clear.


Did I say it was an accident on his part? Short answer NO!!!
Alot of airsoft player's choose to either cover, remove or switch the orange muzzle with a non orange one. They just used the orange one for transpartation. Orange is just as bad in the woods as a flare is in the middle of the night. My airsoft guns have orange tips on them and I could care less since I don't actually play airsoft.

I call things like I see them whether good or bad. As much as I hate LE I don't put any blame on them. LE are trained to use lethal force when they're faced with someone pointing a gun at them. The only thing I can see that LE could have done different is disabling the kid's shooting arm.

As I have said before, this is a case of neglect and stupidity. The neglect is on the parents and school because I don't buy for one minute either didn't know that kid didn't have emotional problems. The stupidity part is on the kid himself because a "normal functioning" teen knows right from wrong.

benEzra
January 17, 2006, 11:26 AM
I don't think a robot would have changed the outcome of this situation at all. As I read the story, the kid WASN'T IN THE BATHROOM when he was shot. He had come out to confront the police, and was shot as he aimed his gun at an officer. I don't think it's likely that the presence of a camera-bot would have necessarily changed that.

NineseveN
January 17, 2006, 02:58 PM
I cannot even seem to fathom how this thread has gone on for 5 pages arguing over this. :rolleyes:

They don't send SWAT in and get there fast enough, Columbine happens and people cry bloody murder.

They send in SWAT, and the kid kills himself though poiting what appeared to be a firearm at a police officer, and people cry?

Had that been me looking at the kid holding what appeared to be a firearm, he'd be DRT. I'll deal with anguish over dinner.

We have people in favor of someone sending their dog after a pool guy that worked for a company the owner contratced with to clean his pool, while holding him at gun-point with a 1911 and ordering the poor fellow to go prone for just being in the yard without knocking...and now we have this thread. Good grief.

Tequila_Sauer
January 17, 2006, 03:15 PM
Suicide by cop is one of the most selfish things you could possibly do, IMO.

Rather than trying to confront your personal demons, you choose the easy way, break the hearts of everyone who ever made the mistake of loving you, and choose to bring the burden of taking your life to someone else so they have to live with killing you for the rest of their lives.

I know it sounds harsh and I know it's one of the many possible burdens of a police officer, but somebody has to live with this now.

As far as the justification, I would take no chances with my own life. If someone else would do something differently in the same situation, fine. I want to go home tonight.

WillBrayJr
January 17, 2006, 04:07 PM
Suicide by cop is one of the most selfish things you could possibly do, IMO.

Rather than trying to confront your personal demons, you choose the easy way, break the hearts of everyone who ever made the mistake of loving you, and choose to bring the burden of taking your life to someone else so they have to live with killing you for the rest of their lives.

I know it sounds harsh and I know it's one of the many possible burdens of a police officer, but somebody has to live with this now.

As far as the justification, I would take no chances with my own life. If someone else would do something differently in the same situation, fine. I want to go home tonight.

You don't have the slightest idea of what goes on inside a kid that has been abused. I'll say it again, his demons got the best of him. I don't fault what the officer did.

Tequila_Sauer
January 17, 2006, 04:15 PM
Ok, he has demons.

I'll repeat, any person who suicides by cop is selfish. A man now has that on his head for the rest of his life. He may justify it in his head that he made the right decision. I believe he made the right decision. People will tell him he made the right decision. But I wouldn't be surprised if it's a moment he's going to think about for the rest of his life.

Demons or lack thereof aside, it's a selfish act to force a man into a situation where he must take your life.

Turtle Club
January 17, 2006, 06:58 PM
First of all, 8th grade plus 6 year old start means median age of 8th graders is 14, so depending on his birthday and his start age, being 15 is not off the curve and does not place him as being "behind" Also in many southern states, boys are held behind a year to start school intentionally, because when they get to high school it gives them a leg up in athletics. This is how you get 20 year old seniors and 21 year old College football players.

I dont think being a 20 year old seinor would be so bad. Just think of all those knowledge the seinor would have over the 17-18 year olds seinors in the was of the women,

Hell if I knew at 18 what I knew at so Id would have...wel :evil:

Shoot if I knew at 20 what I knew at 24 thats even better.

Web
January 17, 2006, 09:27 PM
Here's one thing I'm not clear about. Did the officer he pointed his gun at shoot him, or did a SWAT sniper shoot him? Because I remember hearing something about a sniper taking him out.

TexasRifleman
January 17, 2006, 09:29 PM
Here's one thing I'm not clear about. Did the officer he pointed his gun at shoot him, or did a SWAT sniper shoot him? Because I remember hearing something about a sniper taking him out.

From the story it sounds like it was pretty close range, like the kid was coming around a corner in this bathroom the same time as an officer.

CAPTAIN MIKE
January 19, 2006, 12:56 AM
Sadly, the boy's father was just outside, having come to the school to help defuse the situation. However, he was prevented from entering the scene to talk to his son.

If the boy was physically isolated in a restroom and 'contained', it seems reasonable that bringing his Dad in to possibly help might well have been a good idea. As I understand it, it's common in hostage type situations to have relatives or friends talk to a perpetrator if there is a reasonable chance of it helping defuse the situation.

I'm sure any of us here who are parents would have wanted to be included in the opportunity to solve the problem if we could have saved our son's life. I'm not sure why the boy's father was not allowed into the school, but I'm sure he will be re-living this incident night after night while trying to sleep, as will the officer involved.

joab
January 19, 2006, 01:15 AM
What I understand from a family member of the kid.
The father was actually on a cell phone trying to tell the police that the gun was fake.
He got there as events were coming to a close.

This is not first hand from the aunt but from someone in my family who has spoken to her, so take it for what it's worth until substantiated

Jeff White
January 19, 2006, 01:18 AM
CAPTAIN MIKE said;
Sadly, the boy's father was just outside, having come to the school to help defuse the situation. However, he was prevented from entering the scene to talk to his son.

If the boy was physically isolated in a restroom and 'contained', it seems reasonable that bringing his Dad in to possibly help might well have been a good idea. As I understand it, it's common in hostage type situations to have relatives or friends talk to a perpetrator if there is a reasonable chance of it helping defuse the situation.

Unfortunately, this is just speculation about what might have been, if we lived in a perfect world. None of us knows the timeline of events. For instance, did the officers manning the outer perimeter know that the boy was contained in the restroom? Nobody posting in this thread knows if they did or not. They certainly wouldn't have let anyone past the outer perimeter if they thought the situation was still fluid.

It's really not all that common for family members to directly negotiate with an EDP. The negotiator doesn't know if the person who wants to talk to the EDP is going to help or hinder. The last thing he wants is to maybe bring the person who the EDP wants to hurt into range. Even if the EDP is contained to the point he couldn't present much danger to the family member, the EDP might want the family member as an audience for what he plans next.

I'm sure any of us here who are parents would have wanted to be included in the opportunity to solve the problem if we could have saved our son's life.

You are absolutely right.

I'm not sure why the boy's father was not allowed into the school

See above, there could have been any number of other reasons too.

but I'm sure he will be re-living this incident night after night while trying to sleep, as will the officer involved.

Yes, he probably will. But just like the officer, he has to understand that his son chose his fate when he walked out of that restroom and pointed his weapon at the officer. There is only one person responsible for this tragedy, and he's already paid the ultimate price.

Jeff

daman4469
January 19, 2006, 01:21 AM
Yea....I feel bad for the kid and the police officer. However....Things like this can easily be clouded up into making the COP look like the bad guy. Remember...if you feel in danger, or that others are in danger and actually are to the best of your knowledge, then you are obligated to take action. This officer did the right thing, because at that moment, to the best of his knowledge, many children were in danger. I know you all know this. I just get scurred when things like this happen, because Feinstein and all those damn liberals love these stories. That "kid" crossed the "childhood" threshhold when he picked up that gun.

joab
January 19, 2006, 01:30 AM
Eslinger said Penley was not called until after his son was shot, however. Even then, he was told only to come to the school and not informed of the shooting, he said.
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/news/nation/13628767.htm

So many conflicting accounts at this point

Jeff White
January 19, 2006, 08:20 PM
I got this from another forum. The poster didn't include a link, but it gives us a better perspective of what went down, it appears to be a newspaper columnist eating a little crow pie:

Mike Thomas/Orlando Sentinel

Did Milwee Middle School student Chris Penley have to die?

There now is much more information to answer that question than when I asked it yesterday.

After being walked through the incident by Seminole County Sheriff Don Eslinger, I believe the answer is yes.

After Chris pulled out his gun and fled his classroom Friday, he did not run around the campus for 40 minutes, as was originally reported.

He was out for only six minutes before running into a bathroom.

During that time outside, he encountered a teacher who pleaded with the boy not to shoot him. Chris said nothing. His face was blank.

Chris was in the bathroom for about 40 minutes. Sgt. Kevin Brubaker, an experienced negotiator, tried to talk him out. But the boy would not respond,
other than to once say "Chris" when asked his name.

This is in line with a profile we wrote on Chris in Saturday's newspaper. A friend said, "You can poke him with a stick, and he won't talk."

The bathroom had an open alcove facing classrooms that were 85 feet away. One of the classrooms may have been evacuated. The other could not be cleared because the door faced the bathroom alcove.

That classroom had glass windows that could have been in the line of fire in any exchange of gunshots that took place from the bathroom.

Chris came out into the alcove, holding the gun in one hand, with the butt of the weapon resting in the palm of the other hand, as if to steady it.

In a motion police call "cutting the pie," he leveled it directly at SWAT team member Lt. Mike Weippert.

There was an officer stationed nearby with a beanbag gun, used to stun suspects.

But the threat was too imminent and Weippert shot Chris in the head, just as it
seemed Chris wanted him to do.

If someone pointed a gun at you like that, would you aim for his shoulder or his
leg, as many readers have suggested? If your kid were in that classroom across
from the alcove, what would you have advised Weippert to do?

This brings me to Weippert.

I wrote yesterday that he had not been involved in a prior shooting. He was.

On April 8, 2001, Weippert and several Orange and Seminole deputies confronted a
man named Alexis Gonzalez, who had been fleeing in a truck after a drug deal.

Gonzalez got out of his truck when it hit traffic and threatened to commit
suicide. Weippert and another deputy shot him several times with a beanbag gun.
The man still was able to raise his gun and fire at deputies.

At least six of them returned fire, peppering Gonzalez's truck with 42 holes. In
the melee, Weippert only fired one round. He ordered a cease-fire and approached
the truck. Amazingly, Gonzalez was only wounded. He ignored Weippert's warning
to put his hands up and instead raised his weapon toward him.

Weippert shot him in the head.

In 1996, Weippert received a commendation for disarming and apprehending a
suicidal man.

That same year, he was almost killed when a suspect slashed him so badly he
required 200 stitches in his face and 100 in his side.

This is not a rogue cop.

But he also is not one who hesitates to act when he has no choice. It appears
Chris Penley gave him no choice.

Jeff

45Broomhandle
January 19, 2006, 09:19 PM
Here is the Orlando Sentinel website mentioned by Jeff White. You can keep current on the story by going to the Sentinel pages at any time.

http://www.orlandosentinel.com/news/columnists/orl-miket1806jan18,0,5221191.column?coll=orl-news-col

http://img483.imageshack.us/img483/3112/fouremblems4gb.jpg

joab
January 19, 2006, 09:26 PM
I would be remiss if I did not point outthat the Sentenal, commonly referred to as the Slantenal is not a highly respected paper

The interesting part here though is they seem to be on the side of the police.

I was the subject of one of their articles several years ago.
the entire piece was two pages of lies that took about five minutes to disprove, by simply reading a log book.
Not only that, but they didn't even get my name right

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