Feeling sick after range time?


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nolefan
January 14, 2006, 02:21 PM
Does anyone else (especially new shooters) feel kinda crappy when they come back from the range? Like, headache, fatigued, just general malaise?

Am I doing something wrong? I've got great ear protection, but is the sound too much for me? Or am I just concentrating too hard? :)

Thanks in advance!!!

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silverlance
January 14, 2006, 02:24 PM
squinting too much. or chekc your eyes.

pax
January 14, 2006, 02:36 PM
New shooters often get a significant adrenalin dump just from firing a pistol.

The aftermath of an adrenalin dump usually includes fatigue, shakiness, feeling "blah" and a little depressed.

Keep shooting long enough, and that adrenalin dump will stop happening. Then a trip to the range will cause a zen-like feeling of peace and happiness instead, as you concentrate on your front sight instead of all your other worries. Once that happens, you'll have to work to get a good adrenalin reaction if you want to practice shooting under stress.

Oh, the headache? Could be adrenalin, but is equally likely to be the result of prolonged tension in your arms/shoulders. Try consciously relaxing those muscles when you come off the range. Also try swinging your arms around between strings of fire, to improve your circulation and release the muscle tension.

pax

f4t9r
January 14, 2006, 02:40 PM
New shooters often get a significant adrenalin dump just from firing a pistol.

The aftermath of an adrenalin dump usually includes fatigue, shakiness, feeling "blah" and a little depressed.

Keep shooting long enough, and that adrenalin dump will stop happening. Then a trip to the range will cause a zen-like feeling of peace and happiness instead, as you concentrate on your front sight instead of all your other worries. Once that happens, you'll have to work to get a good adrenalin reaction if you want to practice shooting under stress.

Oh, the headache? Could be adrenalin, but is equally likely to be the result of prolonged tension in your arms/shoulders. Try consciously relaxing those muscles when you come off the range. Also try swinging your arms around between strings of fire, to improve your circulation and release the muscle tension.

pax once again Pax is on it , Great post

slopemeno
January 14, 2006, 02:42 PM
Indoor range by any chance?

springmom
January 14, 2006, 02:43 PM
Does anyone else (especially new shooters) feel kinda crappy when they come back from the range? Like, headache, fatigued, just general malaise?

Am I doing something wrong? I've got great ear protection, but is the sound too much for me? Or am I just concentrating too hard? :)

Thanks in advance!!!

There are a number of reasons for this. Your mileage may vary, but here's what I've experienced:

1) Are you holding your breath all the time when you shoot? This sounds silly, but if you don't breathe, you're not going to feel real well after a couple of hours of holding your breath too much.

2) Are you surrounded by clouds of gunsmoke? If a range is real crowded, you do breathe in a lot of crud.

3) are you shooting on an indoor range? Makes #2 much, much worse!

4) You might find wearing BOTH plugs and muffs helpful. That's a lot of decibels going on.

5) It is possible that you are allergic to some of the crud in the air at a firing range, but I wouldn't worry about that unless you have definitively dealt with #1-4.

6) are you prone to migraines? all of the above will be worse if you are.

I sympathize. You can experiment with times of day and times of week to go shooting, to see if a quieter range environment and fewer shooters makes for a less sicky feeling when you come home.

Also: DO NOT EAT OR DRINK AT THE SHOOTING TABLE. I am BAD about this, because I'm something of a Diet Coke-aholic (made much fun of by my hubster about this!) and I like to have a fountain diet coke with me. That at least means that the soda is covered except the straw, but still...this is not good. Step away, go wash your hands, and THEN have a snack and a drink. This is REALLY IMPORTANT.

Hope all that helps! Mucho sympathy. I know what it's like. :(

Springmom

DMK
January 14, 2006, 02:44 PM
I often feel slightly fatigued if I spend a couple hours at the range. Not sick or anything, but I often feel like relaxing or taking a nap afterwards. If it's one of my workout days and I workout after going to the range, I definately don't do as well.

I've often wondered if it had something to do with the concussions of the blasts. I do always wear good ear protection, but I also do kinda feel same way when I'm exposed to any loud noises for a period of time.

I noticed, I'm also usually very hungery when I get home. I can't think of a single time when I came back from the range and didn't eat something.

rchernandez
January 14, 2006, 02:49 PM
Also: DO NOT EAT OR DRINK AT THE SHOOTING TABLE. I am BAD about this, because I'm something of a Diet Coke-aholic (made much fun of by my hubster about this!) and I like to have a fountain diet coke with me. That at least means that the soda is covered except the straw, but still...this is not good. Step away, go wash your hands, and THEN have a snack and a drink. This is REALLY IMPORTANT.
Springmom

Vigorous scrubbing of hands and forearm with cold water and soap. If you spent a lot of time at the range, shower before sleeping. Hair captures a lot of the particles floating inside the range, these are deposited on your pillow when you sleep and end up inhaling it when you turn around.

Search THR for "Lead"...lots of good discussions.

jeremywills
January 14, 2006, 03:00 PM
very good tips as usual folks

For me it depends on the amount of idiots out there sometimes, lately it seems im more worried about whos around me more than anything, i have just seen too much BS lately that I actually dont sometimes enjoy heading out to the range. I come home in a foul mood when I have had people being very unsafe and I have done the 20 what if questions thing could have happened etc.... ok now back when I was cutting my teeth I too initally would feel like uber crap sometimes after a lengthy range session, depending on the time of the day and year, all of the shots being fired off, your own nervousness, fatigue, especially breaking in a new weapon and learning to control that lovely flinch, the excitement, the wind down period afterwards, many factors already mentioned above, no your not alone my friend. I found taking a nap beforehand helps alot. I dont try to hit the range after a long day of work or any other type of physical activity. OTOH if your a CCW person life doesn't always present ideal conditions and you might have just gotten off work etc... if it all went south, so every now and then I try to go to the range very tired and or already stressed out with other stuff, it does make a difference for me at least. As always, each to his own as your YMMV. Its always good to practice in all conditions when you can. As safely as possible of course, if Im too tired or wiped out then I dont want to be a danger to myself and or others.

Over time you will probably grow accustomed to it. Then you just kind of as the gentleman said above treat it like a treat. It can be very relaxing. Especially as you gain more confidence. If your not shooting well that can also trigger emotions. When everything went well, you leave alot happier :)

Good luck sir, keep practicing and always always be safe. Remember that as being the most important thing of all, safety first. I can't harp on that enough.
J

dakotasin
January 14, 2006, 03:07 PM
one of the most important things about shooting, and to be a good shot, is to know when to quit!

i know most on here have to pay to shoot, and going to the range is a big production, so you want to stay as long as possible. try going to the range, and stop shooting after 30 minutes or so. if you feel like you wasted a lot of time driving or whatever for just 30 minutes of shooting, go browse the gun racks, or talk to a gunsmith for awhile.

over time, build up your range time to all day affairs. but, in the interim, stop when your body tells you to - not when you feel like you got your money's worth. in the long run, it will make it much more enjoyable.

Firehand
January 14, 2006, 03:10 PM
One more factor; how hard are you focusing? If I'm just out for fun, not worrying about perfection, end the time not bad at all.

When I'm testing loads, or sighting in, REALLY focused on it, I'm a lot more worn down at the end at times.

Black Majik
January 14, 2006, 03:17 PM
I know after a range session I usually feel pretty tired. I usually tell the people I take to the range to expect feeling tired; partly cuz we're gonna be there for a while, and from all the concentrating you're gonna do. It takes a lot outta you.

As for feeling sick, I'm not sure why that happens to you. I'm guessing its all the junk you breathe in at an indoor range. That definitely doesn't sound rite. Maybe take shorter range sessions and see if that helps? Or go outsidee and take a quick breather/break before heading back in and continuing your shooting...

Mighty Hd
January 14, 2006, 03:24 PM
for me, I feel extremely tired after I go to the range. Some days are worse than others. Usually after about 4-500rds I'm ready to leave and go home.

cracked butt
January 14, 2006, 04:52 PM
I usually feel pretty darn good after a shooting session.

taliv
January 14, 2006, 05:00 PM
I usually feel pretty darn good after a shooting session.

+1



however, about eating and drinking... it's important that you drink a lot (preferably water). just don't leave your drink in the cloud of gunsmoke.

hso
January 14, 2006, 05:14 PM
Also: DO NOT EAT OR DRINK AT THE SHOOTING TABLE. I am BAD about this, because I'm something of a Diet Coke-aholic (made much fun of by my hubster about this!) and I like to have a fountain diet coke with me. That at least means that the soda is covered except the straw, but still...this is not good. Step away, go wash your hands, and THEN have a snack and a drink. This is REALLY IMPORTANT.

Hope all that helps! Mucho sympathy. I know what it's like. :(

Springmom

Springmom,

Since you know drinking or eating anywhere near the range is tatamount to self poisoning are you still doing it or are you telling us that you wait until you've cleaned up and gotten a Coke from a clean source?

hso
January 14, 2006, 05:18 PM
Does anyone else (especially new shooters) feel kinda crappy when they come back from the range? Like, headache, fatigued, just general malaise?

Squinting (tension response or inadequate glasses or lighting can cause this)

Gripping too hard (this goes away with practice as you become more familiar with shooting)

Inadequate hearing protection (always double up while shooting)

Shoulder tension (back to tension response or lack of experience)

Inhalation of gunsmoke (usually only a problem on an indoor range with poor ventilation)

MedGrl
January 14, 2006, 05:22 PM
if you are using foam earplugs under your muffs you could be puting presure on your inner ear creating the nausia and headach. Try squeezing the foam plugs untill they are the smallest you can get them. and don't put them in too far. as they expand they will push the air out rather than in and reduce the inner ear presure.

nolefan
January 14, 2006, 05:34 PM
Great advice, as always! I feel better than I'm not alone in this.

It IS an indoor range, and sometimes it worries me that this could partly be the cause. I might try the NRA range in Fairfax (which supposedly has great air circulation) and see if I feel any different. I am concentrating alot and trying to be perfect, so maybe that's part of the problem, too.

You know, I'm always really starving when I leave the range as well. I just can't wait to go home and have something really fattening!!

This is all been most helpful and I can't thank you guys enough. :)

STAGE 2
January 14, 2006, 05:49 PM
Ditto on the air circulation being a huge factor in indoor ranges. I have never had problems with headaches or nausea, however I notice a world of difference when I exit out the double doors and back into the gunshop area of the range. As a result I limit myself to no more than 45 mins max. This is the case even though I almost exclusively shoot during the down times, with only myself an maybe 1 at the most 2 others. I can only imagine what it would be like when its busy.

palerider1
January 14, 2006, 06:00 PM
New shooters often get a significant adrenalin dump just from firing a pistol.

The aftermath of an adrenalin dump usually includes fatigue, shakiness, feeling "blah" and a little depressed.

Keep shooting long enough, and that adrenalin dump will stop happening. Then a trip to the range will cause a zen-like feeling of peace and happiness instead, as you concentrate on your front sight instead of all your other worries. Once that happens, you'll have to work to get a good adrenalin reaction if you want to practice shooting under stress.

Oh, the headache? Could be adrenalin, but is equally likely to be the result of prolonged tension in your arms/shoulders. Try consciously relaxing those muscles when you come off the range. Also try swinging your arms around between strings of fire, to improve your circulation and release the muscle tension.

pax
Pax hit the nail on the head....i'm in the local volunteer fire department. in training they teach us about adrenalines effects. i know when we have a house fire that adrenaline makes you feel super human almost, but after everything is over when you get home your dead dog tired.

RyanM
January 14, 2006, 06:08 PM
It may also be the noise, especially if you're indoors. Certain frequencies (or just plain really loud sounds) can cause slight nausea, fatigue, etc. And it's not just your ears, but your entire body. I've noticed that if I'm standing next to someone shooting a high-pressure handgun cartridge, like a 9 mm or .40 S&W, I can actually feel my shirt moving around a little from the blast. That's pretty darn loud.

WarMachine
January 14, 2006, 06:16 PM
Yes, the adrenaline after affects is one cause; as well as full-system fatigue.

When you first start shooting, all your senses and muscles are attuned to the task at hand: handling the small explosions happening in your hand. You whole body will be tense even if you don't exactly realize it.

I used to get some of the same effects when I first started driving as an early teen. It's a totally unnatural act that will only become natural with repetition.

newfalguy101
January 14, 2006, 06:35 PM
I experienced much of what you are talking about last night after shooting a match. I was simply wiped out by the time I got home, and today I am just a tad sore, which surprised me. I chalked it up to the adrenaline rush followed by the inevitable crash that follows.

normally, I spend as much time yakking as shooting when at the range so I dont usually get too stressed-out :D

McCall911
January 14, 2006, 06:48 PM
"Well...you know, I was feeling sick before I came to the range."
This is the excuse I use after my poor performance at the range.

;) :D

springmom
January 14, 2006, 07:25 PM
I usually feel pretty darn good after a shooting session.

Actually, I find a session at the range to be about as relaxing and therapeutic as anything I can of to do. Unless there are folks around who are being unsafe and I feel like half my energy is directed at making sure they don't shoot me! :what: But I can only think of a couple of times that has happened. Today, for example, we were out and put several hundred rounds each through my .38, my XD-40, and the hubster's new 1911. I come home absolutely rid of any anxiety and stress (and yesterday STANK, it was a HORRIBLE day!) Nothing like "making lace" out of a paper target to just get rid of it all.....! :D

Springmom

Majic
January 14, 2006, 07:27 PM
Feeling sick after range time?
Classic example of not having fun while shooting. Lighten up folks. Range shooting should be fun not a job. Learn to enjoy yourself and not worry about each and every shot. You can give yourself ulcers knitting a sock if you try hard enough.
Remember at the range it's Recreational Shooting.

nolefan
January 14, 2006, 07:55 PM
Classic example of not having fun while shooting. Lighten up folks. Range shooting should be fun not a job. Learn to enjoy yourself and not worry about each and every shot. You can give yourself ulcers knitting a sock if you try hard enough.
Remember at the range it's Recreational Shooting.

I AM having fun while shooting! Despite the sick feeling, I keep going back, because I really like it. I would very much disagree with this assessment.

gezzer
January 14, 2006, 08:07 PM
I'm finding I need a nap after anything! Happens when you have teenagers living in the same house.

telomerase
January 14, 2006, 08:33 PM
it IS an indoor range,

IIRC, even very small amounts of nitroglycerin from smokeless powder can give you a headache (it is a strong vasodilator, thus its use in angina). Try shooting outdoors if you can (it's quieter, too).

S&W10mm
January 14, 2006, 08:46 PM
I really look forward to my range time (2-3 times a month) and its relieves allot of my stress. I feel Relaxed for days after. Its a indoor range and I feel GREAT in all conditions. If its Crowded or Empty, it dosen't matter. I like going on Cloudy Nasty days and that just cheers me up. No. 1 I feel I did something that day that would have been wasted, No. 2 I feel I didn't waste a PRETTY day that I could have done something to the House or Car or Yard ETC.

Maybe I'm CRAZY but I LOVE My Range Time!

S&W10mm

Sir Aardvark
January 14, 2006, 09:22 PM
It could be something as simple as the earpieces on your shooting glasses being too tight on your head.

That could explain the headache.

rangerruck
January 14, 2006, 09:32 PM
springmom is totally down, man! also , ther is a certain typ eof fatigue,found when concentrating thoroughly and finely on one certain thing, thomas jefferson recognized this long ago. so you could also say , if not one of the things that Springmom has said, that what you are experiencing is perfectly normal.

Model520Fan
January 14, 2006, 09:50 PM
FWIW, I have NEVER felt bad after shooting except one time, just a week or so ago, indoors with excessive shock (muzzle blast) from my 325. I was wearing ears, and it didn't bother my ears, but I somehow didn't like the shock. 12 rounds, as I recall. I decided not to shoot that gun indoors any more. The feeling went away quickly.

The NRA range is great! Get an annual membership. There's nothing like it - 75 yards, programmable target turning, any power handgun and most (or all?) rifles, and the cleanest range you'll ever see.

c_yeager
January 14, 2006, 09:50 PM
Standing perfectly still for long periods of time, focusing on objects that are out of focus, breathing in god knows what kind of garbage, add it all together with the adreneline/excitement of firing a weapon and I would be very suprised if a new shooter didnt go home feeling kinda crappy.

Farnham
January 14, 2006, 11:53 PM
The only time I felt sick after a range session is the time I drove away and left a brand new factory Glock mag on the bench.

Other than that time, I usually feel superhuman after a long day of shooting. Wash my hands and face, have a smoke, and streeeetch the shoulders and neck muscles. Ahh...therapy.

S/F

Farnham

benEzra
January 14, 2006, 11:54 PM
I sometimes feel that way when coming back from the beach, too...or after Christmas shopping. I think it has to do with making something too much of a big production, and the fatigue catching up with you.

Whenever I've felt crummy after a range trip, it's always been after range trips where I carried three rifles, two handguns, lots of ammunition and magazines, targets and target stands, a benchrest, etc. etc. etc.

The last time I went to the range, I carried ONE gun, my SAR-1. Spent two very relaxing hours shooting it, and came back home refreshed.

Try going to the range with a lighter load...makes your range trip less like a "mission" and more like "fun." :)

texasguy
January 15, 2006, 12:29 AM
sometimes i feel crappy after a range session when someone is shooting a huge magnum rifle right next to me. I think it is the muzzle blast sound waves hitting my inner ear, which makes me feel bad. Btw, when you spin around and feel dizzy and like youre going to upchuck thats your inner ear gettin throwin off, which also regulates your natural balance.

lucky_fool
January 15, 2006, 12:43 AM
The only time I feel sick at the range is when I pay. Range fees and buying their ammo can really add up.

GoBrush
January 15, 2006, 12:59 AM
Pax did a great job on her post as usual. One thing you might want to do is leave the larger caliber guns at home and just relax with a nice 22. Get used to the environment and keep shooting. Pax was right the range can become a place of great stress relief. I can walk out a new man. Kind of like getting out of a hot shower after a hard days work.

The other thought I have is try a different range or head to an out door range. If the range you have these problems is indoors then that might be contributing to the problem as well.

Slateman
January 15, 2006, 01:05 AM
Sometimes I'm a little fatiuged in the shoulders. That may be because my regular shooting day is also my regular lifting day.

Once in a while my eyes will hurt like after staring at a computer screen for a long time (like writing my term papers all at once :D )

Eh, I shoot a well ventilated range so I don't have any issues with that.

Stevie-Ray
January 15, 2006, 03:07 AM
A good air-handling system is a must in an indoor range. I have felt much worse in a range I used to go to, but the new range I frequent now is light-years better. Noise is a problem constantly, though. As was already stated, PLEASE use both plugs AND muffs. I do, and the combination of this and a decent air-scrubber gives me a pretty good range session.

I have to wear ear plugs at work all day; that's how loud it is there. Doesn't matter if I'm busy all day, or sit and do nothing because the line is running perfectly, I always go home exhausted. That's what noise does to you. Firearms are the worst.

jeremywills
January 15, 2006, 09:12 AM
honestly, i feel crappy afterwards when i have to come home and clean up the guns :)

like stated, take one maybe 2 at a time and you have a much lighter after range chore.

Gun cleaning products are not good to breathe in either so make sure you have a well ventilated area at home. I always hate that lingering smell that stays behind a day or so of all the gun chemicals :(

Oldtimer
January 15, 2006, 10:35 AM
Just about everything was covered EXCEPT for one possibility. You may be somewhat claustrophobic!

Indoor ranges always make me feel boxed in, especially if the shooting stall is small. I didn't THINK that I was claustrophobic, but from what I have found out over the years, it can be a major problem OR something that may not be noticed.

I've been an outdoor shooter for many, many years, and have NEVER had the symptoms you described. Of course, that may be because of the fresh air and the almost immediate dissipation of airborne lead particles....or perhaps because of the lessened decibels....or a combination of everything.

Try the outdoor shooting, then indoor shooting within a short time. Comparing the two, you will probably feel a LOT better after shooting outdoors!

Sleeping Dog
January 15, 2006, 01:06 PM
There are plenty of times that I get home from the range, then fall asleep in front of the TV. Is there a downside to this? :)

Sometimes I feel a little beat-up. If I've been shooting the Mosin M44, or shooting 12ga slugs, or if I was shooting next to someone with a muzzle brake, those can get to me after a while.

Regards.

Mizzle187
January 15, 2006, 02:33 PM
I would call myself a new range shooter(about a year or more with pistols) and I feel fatigued afterwords everytime. Im at a nice free outdoor range and its usually not crowded(5-10 people usually but its a big range). I think for me its mainly the adrenaline(sp),but the sound,my nerves, and the eye focus play a majr part in it. I also find myself starving when I leave. Im not in the best shape(but that is changing) but I think alot of this will change with time! Great thread and great posts!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Manedwolf
January 15, 2006, 03:09 PM
Does anyone else (especially new shooters) feel kinda crappy when they come back from the range? Like, headache, fatigued, just general malaise?

Am I doing something wrong? I've got great ear protection, but is the sound too much for me? Or am I just concentrating too hard? :)

Thanks in advance!!!

If it's an indoor range, how's the ventilation? If it's not good, gases from propellants if there's a lot of shooters can certainly give you a headache.

Especially if they're shooting Wolf or Chinese surplus. :D

Wolf might be cheap, but when someone's had that, (the older stuff, I guess), I swear that stuff is the devil's flatulence.

springmom
January 15, 2006, 05:50 PM
Springmom,

Since you know drinking or eating anywhere near the range is tatamount to self poisoning are you still doing it or are you telling us that you wait until you've cleaned up and gotten a Coke from a clean source?

:D Actually, I'm trying very hard to wean myself off my diet coke addiction anyway. So I wait 'til I'm through shooting. Come summertime, I'll take bottles of water, capped and covered...that will be safe, too.

Springmom

racenutz
January 15, 2006, 07:02 PM
Can lead exposure cause headaches? The reason I ask is I don't usually feel any ill affects no matter how long I'm shooting but if anyone is shooting lead bullets I'll get the mother of all headaches.

middy
January 16, 2006, 12:21 PM
Only if I'm hungover to begin with...

:uhoh:

mister2
January 16, 2006, 02:13 PM
nolefan: Try shooting with a gas mask? At the very least it might broaden your training...:)

Two of the closest ranges to me in Northern Virginia are indoor ranges.

I recently came home with a buzz from what I thought was inhaling too much burnt gunpowder. This was on a Saturday morning when everyone and his brother were there. All the lanes had been firing continuously for about 2 hours when my turn came. Can anyone chime in on the effects?

I felt better after a couple of hours.

My .02

jeremywills
January 16, 2006, 03:27 PM
I guess GSR with any other irritants in the air affects you like with alergies. Some folks must be more suspectable than others. I know Mountain Ceder affects me here in S.Texas, that and the grass fires recently have put me in complete misery. So it might be the combination of the range smog LOL :) and all the other S.Texas crap in the air that affects me these days :)

trueblue1776
January 16, 2006, 03:29 PM
I get sick when I realize I just shot $150 worth of .357sig, so yes

:D

nolefan
January 16, 2006, 06:55 PM
Okay, so I will definitely wear ear plugs and muffs. Do most people wear both? I just think I really need it. I mean, some of those shotguns are about to kill me.

Gas mask? Eh...maybe not. But, I sure would be the hit of the range! (re: laughing stock) :)

Thanks for all the great advice! I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

springmom
January 16, 2006, 07:51 PM
Okay, so I will definitely wear ear plugs and muffs. Do most people wear both? I just think I really need it. I mean, some of those shotguns are about to kill me.

Gas mask? Eh...maybe not. But, I sure would be the hit of the range! (re: laughing stock) :)

Thanks for all the great advice! I can't tell you how much I appreciate it.

I shot with both plugs and muffs last weekend and I tell you, it really does make a world of difference. Guy next to me had a .50 cal handgun, and boy it was sooooooo nice for it to just not MATTER. This little bit of illumination came as a result of a miserable range expereince two tables down from somebody with a souped up muzzle-braked Mini 14 that sent me home with a migraine :banghead: .... so I really do sympathize!

Go have fun. And don't shoot up $150 worth of ammo at once (cracked me up!!!!)

Springmom

jeremywills
January 16, 2006, 08:31 PM
i have to admit if im on the rifle line and someone shows up to the table next to me with an AR15 of some flavor Im already dreading it, the sound really gets to me, I dunno why it does, but it really makes me jump just a bit

ball3006
January 17, 2006, 03:41 PM
when I belonged to a gun club in the UP. After we finished shooting and putting the guns and gear away, we would retire to the bar in the club house..............chris3

ball3006
January 17, 2006, 03:55 PM
when I belonged to a gun club in the UP. After we finished shooting and putting the guns and gear away, we would retire to the bar in the club house..............chris3

benEzra
January 17, 2006, 04:16 PM
Okay, so I will definitely wear ear plugs and muffs. Do most people wear both?
For me, always, without exception.

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