? Most effective, least time involved primer pocket cleaning?


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Malfader13
January 14, 2006, 10:12 PM
I have been doing reloading for a while but only as an occasional hobby mainly for saving money. I am finaly getting more serious and would like to know the methods and tools others use to clean out their primer pocket. Dose it really help with accuracy? Do you debur the flash hole and dose that also help? What method do you use for this?

Thanks in advance for any advice.

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swifter
January 14, 2006, 10:26 PM
I don't bother with handgun brass.

With rifle, I use the Sinclair tool that I use to mill the primer pocket to depth.

I use an RCBS tool to deburr the flash holes, "coning" the inside, and breaking the 90*edge on the outside.

Accuracy is a process of things working together, not a "trick" here or there, like the gun rags imply...:eek:

Tom

Malfader13
January 14, 2006, 11:04 PM
Accuracy is a process of things working together, not a "trick" here or there, like the gun rags imply...:eek:

Tom

Can't agree with you more there, even in my limited experience. I am trying to look at all of the various things I can do that can help my accuracy even if it is in small increments. Thanks for the tips.

Grumulkin
January 14, 2006, 11:12 PM
I don't clean primer pockets but when I load a set of cases for the first time, I do use a "Primer Pocket Uniformer" to remove a military crimp if necessary and to make the base of the pocket uniform. Maybe this helps accuracy but I can't really say for sure.

I also in general debur primer pockets. When there are irregularities, you can feel the tool cutting. I recently tried this with some Hornady Premium brass and to my surprise after trying to debur several cases there were no irregularities to debur so I stopped. My conclusion is that Hornady Premium brass is worth the money.

I would inspect primer pockets though. In a run of Remington .222 Remington chrome plated brass I bought awhile back, I found a number of primer pockets with very eccentric holes that would have affected accuracy and discarded them.

R.W.Dale
January 14, 2006, 11:14 PM
Eaisest way, just don't bother. This is just one of those hocus pocus handloading myths we run into every so often. It MIGHT matter if you are a benchrest shooter trying to wring the last .010 from a group. But for all pracital porposes it don't matter one bit.

Malfader13
January 15, 2006, 12:10 AM
Eaisest way, just don't bother. This is just one of those hocus pocus handloading myths we run into every so often. It MIGHT matter if you are a benchrest shooter trying to wring the last .010 from a group. But for all pracital porposes it don't matter one bit.

I'll give you that and for my hunting it won't be that much of a concern for me seing as how most of my shots at deer have been at less then 100yds and I never needed more then one shot on them. This is for my AR15 benchrest at the range so I am trying to squeeze every last bit of accuracy out of my weapon. I find it entertaining to try to build the perfect round... call me crazy I guess:D Plus I do plan to go varmint hunting in april and want to have some very accurate round at long distances for my AR and my 6mm Rem. But thanks for putting it in perspective :)

R.W.Dale
January 15, 2006, 12:34 AM
http://www.rcbs.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=4&s2=3&s3=18

I have one of these, I don't use it very often but I bet it would become quite fast and effictive when combined with a cordless drill.

jondar
January 15, 2006, 11:24 AM
I always thought the reason for cleaning the crud out of primer pockets was so the primer could be seated to the proper depth.

The Bushmaster
January 15, 2006, 01:17 PM
And Jondar...There ya have it...To insure that all primers seat to the same and proper depth. None high and none cockeyed...Now that wasn't hard to figure:D

444
January 15, 2006, 01:22 PM
Not only that, but in a rifle with an interitia firing pin like...................an AR15, a high primer might result in a slamfire.
Don't be lazy. Clean the primer pocket.
I use a primer pocket uniformer from Sinclair. I use it in a cordless drill. The first time around it removes metal as it uniforms the primer pocket. In subsequent loadings, it mainly removes the debris but also keeps the primer pocket uniform.

antarti
January 15, 2006, 03:15 PM
I can understand uniforming primer pockets ( to keep them uniform), but what exactly is the problem with cleaning dirty primer pockets easily?

After I resize a batch of brass (unlubed pistol or lubed rifle brass) it goes into the tumbler with some super-fine cob for about an hour. The cob is ground fine enough to go through the flash holes and only rarely hang up (in flash holes, not primer pockets). This makes the sides of the primer pocket gleam better than new, and the area surrounding the flash hole is clean (just not as polished as the sides of the pocket).

While that's happening, I am batching other brass, basically, no time wasted and no fuss/muss. I guess I don't see the "issue"...

ReloaderFred
January 15, 2006, 06:50 PM
I clean each and every primer pocket I load, and we're talking many thousands of rounds per year. The primer residue is abrasive and if you look at it under a microscope, it will look like particles of glass. I choose to remove as much abrasive material as possible before loading each case. I also believe that clean primer pockets enable me to seat primers properly, and the fact that I don't have any misfires bears that out.

As far as I'm concerned, cleaning primer pockets is just part of the case prep, and I've devised my own ways to do it very rapidly. I currently load 26 different calibers and I wouldn't consider seating a primer in a dirty primer pocket in any of them, but then that's just me.

Hope this helps.

Fred

YellowLab
January 15, 2006, 06:56 PM
My M1, M1 Carbine and XM16E1 all have floating firing pins. Even when primers are seated under the head, it still get a slight dent if I extract an unfired case.

I'm sure that *somewhere* there are Garands, Carbines and AR's slam firing left and right.... but the primers would have to be pretty far out.

I seat my primers flush and don't worry about slam fires.

I also load my 30 rd AR mags to a full 30 rounds :what:

I guess I am just living on the edge :rolleyes:

444
January 15, 2006, 08:58 PM
I wonder why Springfield Armory includes a four page article reprinted from The American Rifleman magazine about slam fires in the box with their M1As and M1s ?
I wonder why noted authors such as Glen Zediker think that slam fires are something to be concerned about ? http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf ?

Must be some kind of fad. :rolleyes:

bevis
January 15, 2006, 10:32 PM
i have never cleaned the first primer pocket in handgun brass.
after it go's thru the tumbler, its good enough for me.
dont waste your time with thoughts of cleaning primer
pockets.

caz223
January 15, 2006, 11:10 PM
If I buy pistol brass sight unseen, I deprime a few to see if they are clean enough to run through my 550 without problems.
If they're horrible, I've been known to mass deprime them all, chuck a primer pocket brush in a drill, and give 'em all a few seconds with the rotating wire brush.
Then, after a quick inspection, it takes a pass through the tumbler, then the 550 (Making sure to check for tumbler media in the flash holes.)
I went through a 5 gallon pail of 9mm brass in two weeks in my spare time. (No, I don't have THAT much spare time.)

TooTaxed
January 16, 2006, 01:12 PM
I've very rarely cleaned primer holes in 60 plus years of reloading about 20 different rifle and pistol cases, never had a missfire or failure to seat. When I was loading for target shooting I ran some careful shooting tests, and could determine no difference. (My 60-year old reaming tool is still in new condition!)

That said, they do need inspection! I've run across noticibly oversize and eccentric flash holes, and discard them.

Most military rifle cases utilize very slightly shorter primers than the normal LR primers and are crimped in. I use a RCBS swaging nipple in my press to swage out the crimp, but it can also be reamed out...more trouble.

You can buy the short primers, which are intended primarily for semi and full automatic weapons...CCI #34.

GunAdmirer
January 16, 2006, 01:46 PM
I do clean my handgun brass. I use a really cheap Lee Primer Pocket Cleaner (<$2). It is fast and works well. The RCBS brushes are also good but are more expensive. I use them too for the more stubborn stuff.

It may not be completely necessary but I like my brass clean, and it doesn't take much to do it. It also ensures that my primers seat properly.

I don't reload thousands of rounds per month or I might think a little differently.

The Bushmaster
January 16, 2006, 03:57 PM
And mine's even cheaper...Free...Well. A little labor is required to manufacture it...About 5 minutes...:D

bevis
January 16, 2006, 04:06 PM
ok Bushmaster, we are waiting for the drawing / instructions on how
to build the free one in 5 mins.:)

The Bushmaster
January 16, 2006, 04:33 PM
L O L...O K Bevis...I've been tellin' people on here for a year now about this fine tool made from an old and probably broken choke or throttle cable from a lawn mower or tractor or from anything that uses a pull cable. Cut the cable wire just ahead of the guide (thick) part of the cable about one inch or less as you may prefer...It will not reform or change the size of the pocket or flash hole, but if all you want to do is clean the crud out of the pocket and remove any media from the flash hole this will do a fast and efficiant job...And there you have it Mr. Bevis...:D You can make one faster then you can read this post...Just takes a pair of diaginal cutters.

YellowLab
January 16, 2006, 04:42 PM
I wonder why Springfield Armory includes a four page article reprinted from The American Rifleman magazine about slam fires in the box with their M1As and M1s ?
I wonder why noted authors such as Glen Zediker think that slam fires are something to be concerned about ? http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf ?

Must be some kind of fad. :rolleyes:

I'm sure it does happen, with poorly made ammo or poorly maintained guns. There are plenty of myths... Fulton Armory jumps up and down and swears that you should not reload for any gas gun... we simply folk just can't git it right.

Then there is the 30 round M16 'myth'.

Then there is the 'Don't drop a loaded 1911 on the muzzel or it WILL go off (floating firing pin) myth'.

Floating firing pins have graduated to the mystical level of *IT WILL HAPPEN NO MATTER WHAT* status... cause some people believe it will.

bevis
January 16, 2006, 05:14 PM
thanks bushmaster


ok yellowlab, i get it all except this one.


Then there is the 30 round M16 'myth'

bogie
January 16, 2006, 08:07 PM
For my accuracy stuff, I use a carbide pocket uniformer - it cleans them nicely. For .223, etc., I use a little RCBS steel bristle brush.

30Cal
January 16, 2006, 09:07 PM
I wonder why Springfield Armory includes a four page article reprinted from The American Rifleman magazine about slam fires in the box with their M1As and M1s ?
I wonder why noted authors such as Glen Zediker think that slam fires are something to be concerned about ? http://www.zediker.com/downloads/14_loading.pdf ?

Must be some kind of fad. :rolleyes:

God forbid a lawyer go hungry, but everybody's got one these days. I've seen many many doubles, but never seen a slamfire (magazine blown out, stock shattered). It's become the obligatory caution when talking about reloading for gasguns. Slamfire is possible, but unlikely, especially if you understand the concern and take reasonable steps to mitigate the risk (low to begin with).

I clean every primer pocket for gas guns. I have a small wire brush and a cordless drill. I also uniform the pockets as well so that the primers end up with 0.010" below flush when seated. I never clean pockets for anything else (bolt actions, pistols, etc). I look for big gains in accuracy (buying a good bullet) and forget the small ones unless they cost me little or no addition time and expense.

ReloaderFred
January 16, 2006, 11:35 PM
YellowLab,

I don't know how long you've been shooting, or your experience, but you are pooh poohing some known facts. I've seen two guns that were blown up by slam fires, both M1 Garands. I've also been present when a 1911 Colt was dropped from the hip and landed on it's muzzle and went off. I also know of at least two Model 59 handguns that fell out of holsters during foot pursuits and went off when they hit the ground on their muzzles.

You may want to go to the CSP handloading forum and ask the question about slam fires and see how many responses you get. One poster calls himself Slamfire, and has had two of them and tracked them down to the use of Federal primers in M1 Garands and M1A's.

They can, and do, happen. I do load 30 rounds in my AR magazines by the way, without any problem, but pre Series 80 Colt 1911's will go off if they land on the muzzle, and so will any other handgun that uses an inertia firing pin without some sort of mechanical block that is removed when the trigger is pulled. And slam fires can and do occur. They are mostly encountered in High Power shooting, since that's where most of the experience is, and they shoot many, many rounds per year.

Hope this helps.

Fred

callgood
January 17, 2006, 07:27 PM
One of these http://www.sinclairintl.com/cgi-bin/category.cgi?category=RECPUN&type=store (these) chucked in an electric drill (slow speed) or screwdriver. Once uniformed they will also clean crud out of the pocket.

I'm not the world's most experienced reloader so I try to eliminate as many variables as possible so that if something does go not as planned I have fewer things to consider. And I shoot at a volume that allows me to do so. If I fired a bucket every weekend I'd probably have to change my tactics.

superhornet
January 18, 2006, 11:01 AM
To build good reliable reloads.....clean the primer pockets. This little step (as some have mentioned) will allow primer seating to the same depth time after time. 99% of handload failures has to do with incorrect primer seating depth......do it......why take a chance. This of course is my own humble opinion and I am not an expert like many on this forum. I have only been reloading since Sept 18, 1949.

snuffy
January 18, 2006, 04:02 PM
I would inspect primer pockets though. In a run of Remington .222 Remington chrome plated brass I bought awhile back, I found a number of primer pockets with very eccentric holes that would have affected accuracy and discarded them.

Where can I get some of this chrome plated brass?:rolleyes:

ReloaderFred
January 18, 2006, 04:25 PM
He really means nickel plated brass. You're better off with regular, unplated brass, as the nickel flakes off the brass and is harder than the steel of your barrel. The plating process also shortens the life of the brass considerably and you won't get as many reloads out of it.

Hope this helps.

Fred

snuffy
January 18, 2006, 05:49 PM
He really means nickel plated brass. You're better off with regular, unplated brass, as the nickel flakes off the brass and is harder than the steel of your barrel. The plating process also shortens the life of the brass considerably and you won't get as many reloads out of it.

Hope this helps.

Fred

Well Fred, I dissagree strongly with your take on nickel plated brass. It is NOT harder than steel. Harder than plain brass, yes. It is more durable then un-plated brass, it will not corrode in leather ammo carriers/loops.

I've used nickel plated brass in a lot of rifle calibers and all my handgun rounds. I've NEVER seen it flake or fail sooner than plain brass. It's easier to find in the grass when shooting IPSC or IDPA.

Some must think it's actually chrome, if it were it would be hard enough to possibly cut steel or wear it faster. This gets discussed and cussed about often on the internet. It always ends up in a draw, everybody deciding to either use it or dump it in the nearest garbage can.

ReloaderFred
January 18, 2006, 06:44 PM
Snuffy,

I knew when I posted that it would cause some discussion. I'll include a quote from Varmint Al's website that goes along with my experience. I use nickel plated pistol cases, but they don't last near as long as plain brass. I've also had many nickel plated rifle cases flake off around the neck after trimming. I usually load nickel rifle brass one time and then put it into the scrap box to sell to the recycler.

Fred

Here's the quote from Varmint Al:

FORGET NICKEL-PLATED BRASS.... I liked the looks and feel of nickel-plated cases, but I don't load them anymore and here is why. The cases are strong and it is easy enough to outside neck turn them. That is not the problem. The nickel-plating on the case neck ID is like sandpaper. The only way you might be able to remove this grit is with a case neck ID reamer if you have a "tight neck" chamber and enough neck wall thickness to work with. If you have a loaded nickel-plated round laying around and don't believe me, just pull the bullet. It will look like you pulled it out of a tube of 180 grit wet/dry sandpaper. If you pull the bullet out of a brass case mouth that has been carefully chamfered and polished with the steel wool process above, it will be essentially like out of the bullet box. Want copper in the barrel? Start by sanding the surface of those nice polished precision bullets. Try it with a Moly Coated bullet and it is even worse; the nickel-plated cases scrape off the Moly. The nickel-plated case neck IDs don't get any better after you reload them a few times. They are still like sandpaper. Think about a few of those nickel pieces of grit imbedding into the copper of the bullet and what they do to your rifle barrel! I have heard that the nickel is hard enough to score some reloading dies and also wear down the expander ball. Any metal that hard, should be kept away from your precision barrel. I have heard that some people have had success in removing the nickel plate from the neck IDs with a stainless steel brush and a drill motor. I haven't tried it.

MORE ABOUT NICKEL PLATING.... This is interesting about the mechanical properties of the nickel plating:
Electroless nickel plating is a process for chemically applying nickel-alloy deposits onto metallic substrates using an auto catalytic immersion process without the use of electrical current. ...snip....
Hardness and Wear Resistance
One of the most important properties for many applications is hardness. As deposited, the micro-hardness of electroless nickel coatings is about 500 to 700 HK100. That is approximately equal to 45 to 58 HRC and equivalent to many hardened alloy steels. Heat treatment causes these alloys to precipitation harden and can produce hardness values as high as 1100 HK100, equal to most commercial hard chromium coatings. ...snip...

Note that if you anneal your nickel plated necks, you are hardening the nickel plating. It can be harder than many alloyed steels before you anneal and can increase is hardness as much as 2 fold by precipitation hardening. I sure wouldn't want those tiny little hard pieces inside the neck getting embedded in the bullet's copper surface and then fire lapping my nice shiny barrel.

Here is the link to the page: http://www.varmintal.com/arelo.htm#Nickel_Brass

Hope this helps

Fred

redneck2
January 19, 2006, 09:22 AM
You may want to go to the CSP handloading forum and ask the question about slam fires and see how many responses you get. One poster calls himself Slamfire, and has had two of them and tracked them down to the use of Federal primers in M1 Garands and M1A's.

I used Federal match primers in my first AR loads. Should I use something different??

Man they are good. Back to back 1/2" groups at 125 yards, prone

FWIW....my friend that shoots High Power had a shooter blow up an AR next to him this past summer. This guy has been reloading and shooting a long time. Just about had to be a slam fire.

If you're looking for accuracy, you might want to get Fred Sinclair's book. I guess just because he won benchrest competitions and set national records doesn't really mean he knows anything. Actually, he's probably an idiot because he feels primer uniforming/flash hole uniforming is one of the best things to do for accuracy

I love the attitude of some people. "I've never done it, so it must be stupid"

To answer the question, you can de-prime then tumble. Does a great job of cleaning the pockets. Make sure you blow the media out of the case by blowing air thru the primer pocket.

ClarkEMyers
January 19, 2006, 01:15 PM
Once upon a time I would decap with a punch and base set or one of the bench rest squeeze the handle sort of tools, then had Lee yankee screwdriver type primer pocket cleaners mounted pointing up in the bench top - pick up case and place on base, hammer primer out and run the case once on the Lee tool. It didn't clean the primer pocket squeeky clean but it meant the primer pockets came clean in a hurry in the tumbler. I like the process because I wanted clean brass in my resizing die.

These days I get a little nervous about the lead part of lead styphenate but I can't argue with the folks who say run the primer pocket uniformer every time because the same forces that make primer pockets grow sideways with heavy loads just might squeeze them lengthwise.

The lead exposure still worries me though if anybody has suggestions.

ReloaderFred
January 19, 2006, 02:20 PM
As with handling any lead, all you really need to do is wash your hands and try not to breath in any of the dust created when you clean the primer pockets. You shouldn't smoke, eat or put your hands in your mouth or nose before washing them. Lead in solid form can't be absorbed epidermally, so just take a few precautions and set up your equipment properly to lessen the chances of ingesting lead. You're probably getting more exposure from just shooting the rounds than you are in handling them prior to reloading them.

Soap and water will take care of most of it.

Hope this helps.

Fred

wolf_from_wv
January 19, 2006, 06:24 PM
http://www.rcbs.com/default.asp?menu=1&s1=4&s2=3&s3=18

I have one of these, I don't use it very often but I bet it would become quite fast and effictive when combined with a cordless drill.

It is...

redneck2
January 19, 2006, 07:23 PM
You shouldn't smoke, eat or put your hands in your mouth or nose before washing them.

So this means I can't pick my nose while I'm reloading?? DANG!!!

:neener:

ReloaderFred
January 19, 2006, 11:48 PM
I was trying to be nice.............

Fred

redneck2
January 20, 2006, 07:04 AM
Fred says

I was trying to be nice.............

You should know better than try to be nice. Somebody's gonna call you out

:D

JDGray
January 20, 2006, 11:47 AM
I clean all my cases, every time, with my little Lee pocket cleaner.

Mantis
January 20, 2006, 02:40 PM
...I use a primer pocket uniformer from Sinclair. I use it in a cordless drill. The first time around it removes metal as it uniforms the primer pocket. In subsequent loadings, it mainly removes the debris but also keeps the primer pocket uniform.

I do the same thing. It is fast and works great. No need to have a separate brush to clean out the pockets.

GoSlash27
May 3, 2007, 09:31 AM
Okay...
I'm very new at this whole reloading thing, but I noticed immediately that my handgun rounds are less prone to light strikes if I clean the pockets.

The Bushmaster
May 3, 2007, 09:57 AM
GoSlash27...It seems that you are a bit ahead of a lot of people...That is another reason to clean pockets. The biggest reason is to insure that all primers seat against the bottom of the primer pocket. It does tend to minimumize the chances of a misfire...

TooTaxed
May 3, 2007, 10:13 AM
Regarding the slam fires...I use the CCI #34 LR primers made specifically for semi and full auto ammunition...7.62-mm NATO, .30-06, and 7.62 x 39...slightly shorter walls so they are less likely to protrude and cause slam fires. I've never had any problems using regular primers, but I always run my finger over the primers on loaded cases to weed out any protrusions.

The Bushmaster
May 3, 2007, 10:39 AM
Good procedure TooTaxed...Same thing I do right after priming a set of 50 or 20, depending on whether they are pistol or rifle. While they are still in the loading block I run my finger over them and eye-ball them as I do it...

Idano
May 3, 2007, 12:21 PM
I chuck my pocket cleaning brushes up in my drill press; it takes me less then 5 minutes to clean 100 rounds. It so simple and so quick to do; I just pick up a case in each hand and go as fast as I can pick them up.

snuffy
May 3, 2007, 03:05 PM
Fred, I don't know how I failed to follow up on this over a year ago. but just who has proclaimed this varmint Al an expert?

I have heard that the nickel is hard enough to score some reloading dies and also wear down the expander ball. Any metal that hard, should be kept away from your precision barrel. I have heard that some people have had success in removing the nickel plate from the neck IDs with a stainless steel brush and a drill motor. I haven't tried it.

All he has said here is hearsay, repeated until everybody accepts it as fact. The internet is full of "I HAVE HEARD" myths.

Hardness and Wear Resistance
One of the most important properties for many applications is hardness. As deposited, the micro-hardness of electroless nickel coatings is about 500 to 700 HK100. That is approximately equal to 45 to 58 HRC and equivalent to many hardened alloy steels. Heat treatment causes these alloys to precipitation harden and can produce hardness values as high as 1100 HK100, equal to most commercial hard chromium coatings.

The heat required to harden the thin nickle plating on brass cases would MELT the underlying brass! Nickel plating is all of a few MICRONS thick. 2.54 MICRONS = 0.0001.Nickel is harder than WROUGHT IRON. OH yeah, wrought iron is some REALLY soft stuff (softer than many brass alloys).Nickel plating can be heat treated to make it moderately hard, RC63 to 65, but you won't find that on a cartridge case.

cheygriz
May 3, 2007, 04:23 PM
Why would you want to???:confused:

I load on a progressive, including 3/8 MOA varmint ammo, and I've never seen a reason to do it.

Things like cleaning pockets and weighing individual charges are holdovers from grand daddy's day, when some duphus gun rag writer that didn't now any better thought it might be a good idea.

Deavis
May 3, 2007, 06:00 PM
I've been tellin' people on here for a year now about this fine tool made from an old and probably broken choke or throttle cable from a lawn mower or tractor or from anything that uses a pull cable.

Come on Bushmaster, everyone knows you built your house out of a glue stick, 2 rocks, and a piece of angle iron :)

When you get new brass, ream the pockets and never think about it again unless you feel you absolutely must. If it makes you feel good, then do it.

The Bushmaster
May 3, 2007, 06:18 PM
Deavis,

Angle iron??? Where did you get a piece of angle iron? Can I have it? Might make a nice peak on my roof above those rocks. And that's two glue sticks...Want the instructions?

Idano
May 3, 2007, 08:45 PM
Things like cleaning pockets and weighing individual charges are holdovers from grand daddy's day, when some duphus gun rag writer that didn't now any better thought it might be a good idea.

Cleaning primer pockets may or may not be a personal preference, but I am certainly hope you are not advocating not checking your powder measure routinely while you're reloading. I agree every case is certainly not necessary but it does need to be checked on a routine basis. I personally check my powder measure dispense with ball power every 50th round and every 25th with flake powder. I won't use extruded powder when loading progressively, just too much deviation.

the pistolero
May 3, 2007, 09:59 PM
After I ran my first batch of brass through the tumbler and deprimed it, I thought, hey, maybe I'll run it through again to clean the primer pockets. Worked pretty good, but for the fact that the walnut particles got into the flash holes on a bunch of 'em. :D I finally figured out if I straightened a paper clip I could use it to gently clear the flash holes. It doesn't take too much, but I am thinking the little brush would be better.
As for cleaning vs. not cleaning the primer pocket...I'm all for whatever puts the least wear & tear on my press, and if cleaning the primer pockets makes it even a little easier to seat the primers the way they should be seated, then that's what I'm going to do.

stevekl
May 3, 2007, 10:10 PM
I like to clean the pockets because I have a pathological need to clean things.

Hey, I never said there was a rational reason for everything.

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