10mm vs .45 acp, pros and cons?


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MJRW
April 9, 2003, 02:23 PM
I haven't seen this debated much. I've seen 9mm vs .45 left and right. I'm not wondering which is "better", I'm wondering what the pros and cons are. Cost, velocity, penetration, trajectory, recoil out of similar platforms, etc.?

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DeltaElite
April 9, 2003, 03:44 PM
The 10mm ammo costs more, recoils more and has more energy than the 45acp.

There are fewer platforms from which to deliver the 10mm.
There is only one regular production 1911 style 10mm and that is the Dan Wesson Razorback.
There is the full sized Glock 20 and the compact Glock 29 in 10mm.
There is also the EAA Witness in 10mm.

In the used 10mm handgun market, there are the Smiths, Deltas, but they are out of production.

Via the internet, you can get alot of 10mm ammo, but most local shops have little if any 10mm ammo.

Both the 45acp and 10mm are excellent cartridges.
The 10mm is capable of better penetration and has a flatter trajectory, it is a higher velocity cartridge.
I am very comfortable with either cartridge and if economics is a factor, then the 45acp is alot less expensive to have around.

Good luck with whichever one you choose. :D

MrAcheson
April 9, 2003, 04:35 PM
10mm guns also usually have a higher magazine capacity than .45acp versions. A single stack will usually give you an extra round. A double stack 10mm give you more plus 10mm doesn't have the same the blockyness in the grip a .45 has.

CZF
April 9, 2003, 05:05 PM
Should you be a Reloader, the cost is about the same for
ammo. The .40/10mm bullets being cheaper in some cases.

.45 ACP brass is cheap, but you also find good deals on bulk
10mm brass, usually in better shape than .45 brass IMHO

I used to be a big .45 fan. Torn between the ergonomics
and firepower of the CZ75, or the big ole .45 round's
'stopping power' or the warm- fuzzy feeling you get
from it:)

After finding the Witness in 10mm, it seems a perfect
balance.

TEN high-velocity .40 rounds rounds. Plenty of punch..
without punishing recoil, at least in the steel framed Witness

I'm sure the .45 Witness would be OK. I doubt
if it would be as much fun to shoot as the 10MM.

From MILD to WILD! THE 10MM!

10-Ring
April 9, 2003, 05:44 PM
I really enjoyed the 10mm pistol I had. The ONLY reason I sold it was because I was having more & more difficulty finding ammo for it :(
I really like shooting the 45 acp, but if I come across a good deal on a 10mm, I might take the plunge again :rolleyes:

Erik
April 9, 2003, 06:29 PM
The only con, other than expense depending on where you live and whether or not you reload, is that should a JHP fail to expand the round will punch through .05" smaller than a .45acp which acts in a similar manner.

Big deal? Not to many. Some though.... Well, there are always some. :)

Sean Smith
April 9, 2003, 08:56 PM
Factory 10mm ammo costs about the same as factory .45 ACP ammo, and can be cheaper in some cases if you order in bulk. Of course, using the MAIL scares the crap out of some people, who will buy $15/50 boxes of UMC .45 ACP at the corner store, and tell you that your $160-180/1,000 10mm ammo is "hopelessly expensive." :neener:

10mm isn't for everybody. Remember, most people are scared of .45 ACP, so a cartridge that can about double the muzzle energy of G.I. hardball is never going to become a "mainstream" proposition.

Comparing 10mm with .45 ACP almost misses the point, though. What 10mm really does is replicate the versatility of a magnum revolver cartridge in an autoloader, neatly splitting the difference between .357 Magnum and .41 Magnum. Like those cartridges, it is fine for self-defense against humans. And like those cartridges, it can also be credibly used for hunting and self-defense against four-legged critters. In those roles, it easily eclipses .45 ACP... and arguably even .45 Super/.45 SMC.

Boats
April 9, 2003, 09:43 PM
The .45ACP has a singularity of purpose--it was a pistol cartridge designed to drop humans. It has been doing just that with a fabulous record for nearly 100 years. Evidently, every service auto round except the older 9mmP has been attempting to "correct" some shortcoming of the .45ACP. To me, most of the alleged shortcomings are invalid, except perhaps when someone insists that higher capacity is truely called for by certain professionals.

I like the concept of the 10mm, but I find the .45's controlability to be much better in rapid fire. I was going to buy a Glock 20, just to have one, until Misters Glock and Januzzo screwed that up for me.

MCNETT
April 10, 2003, 01:02 AM
Sean Smith just about summed it all up. 10mm will do everyhting that the .40SW or .45 ACP will do AND (with hotter loadings) move into .41 mag territory!
-Mike

rock jock
April 10, 2003, 01:56 AM
I'm wondering what the pros and cons are.
You wanna know what the biggest con to the 10mm?

I don't have one!

Sean Smith
April 10, 2003, 12:17 PM
The .45ACP has a singularity of purpose--it was a pistol cartridge designed to drop humans.

That kind of says it all... if that is "all" you need a handgun for (and that fits most people), then .45 ACP really doesn't need to be forsaken for something "better." But if you want more versatility (or just more power), 10mm can provide that from an autoloader of practical size.

355sigfan
April 10, 2003, 01:57 PM
I used to be a big 10mm fan. But after carrying a Glock 20 for a bit, I started not to like it. It less reliable than a 45 in all the plat forms I have tried it in. When factory +p 45 acp ammo is thrown in the mix the power levels are about identical. In single stack guns both hold 8 +1 rounds at least in 1911's. Not many people make 10mm's anymore, while everyone makes a 45 it seems. There is better ammo made for the 45 acp.
PAT

DeltaElite
April 10, 2003, 02:22 PM
45acp +p ammo only approaches soft loaded 10mm.
45acp+p 200gr top out at 1050
10mm 200gr top out at 1200
The only weight load where 45acp approaches 10mm is in the 165gr loads, both go about 1250fps, although the 10mm can be loaded to 1300fps.

I have seen no reliability difference between the two in any platform.

45acp is much easier to find ammo for and has more bullet options, along with being in more pistols.

It comes down to picking a platform and seeing if it comes in 10mm and 45acp.
Then picking one based upon ammo cost and availibility, if that is even a concern for you.

Honestly, if I could only have one gun, I would take the 45acp over the 10mm, due to the availibity of ammo.

Sean Smith
April 10, 2003, 02:35 PM
It less reliable than a 45 in all the plat forms I have tried it in.

I know at least one pistolsmith that said the exact opposite, i.e. that (at least in 1911s) 10mm is a touch more feed-reliable than .45 ACP... the skinnier cartridges (10mm ,9x23) have a "straighter shot" into the chamber in a 1911 than the .45 ACP does.

45auto
April 10, 2003, 03:43 PM
The 45 is a good blend of power and control in a handgun for most people that shoot enough.

The 10mm gives the "energy junkie" a hot load that is accurate and it can be downloaded to comfortable levels in large frame guns. It feeds better in a 1911 than the 40 without "work".
Nothing wrong with being an "energy junkie" by the way!

It won't fad away and it won't become popular because it recoils too much for most people in the hot loads. If you shoot it downloaded all the time you might as well buy a 40.

Good luck

Mike Irwin
April 10, 2003, 04:38 PM
Both will take a bowling pin clean off the table during pin shoots.

That's all I really care about from these two cartridges. :)

12-34hom
April 10, 2003, 07:38 PM
After recieving and shooting my D.W. 1911 in 10mm, i can say it's the most accurate of ANY pistol i've owned.

So far, i've only run 200 grain TMJ -Blazers & Federals 180 grain American Eagle lead loads thru it. At 15 yards,slow fire two handed = silver dollar size groups all day long.

Some Texas ammo or Pro Load should be excellent fare.

I do believe that i'm going to start to reloading for handgun...

I have no quarrel with 45acp, but 10mm is one sweet round.

12-34hom.

cratz2
April 10, 2003, 07:54 PM
As much as I like the 45ACP, there really isn't a comparison. The 10mm holds more rounds, is more 'powerful' by nearly any standard and can be made to work in nearly all the major platforms. The drawbacks to the 10 have been listed here, less availability in the local shops, and a few less platforms from which to launch it. The drawbacks of the 45 are pretty much limited to cartridge capacity - the number of rounds in the gun if you value that.

If using FMJ ammo, both are going to completely penetrate a human target from nearly any angle at least 90% of the time. Using the best bullets available, both are going to put the serious hurts on a bad guy if called upon to do that. Just depends on if you're more of a heavier and slower guy or a lighter and faster guy but as mentioned above, at 200gr, the 10mm is the same weight and faster so even that argument becomes invalid if comparing that bullet weight.

If you're talking about something just to play with, the 45ACP might come more into it's own, not to say it should be limited to such. But with more readily accessable ammo, the 45 is a more convinient cartridge to shoot. Also, you should be able to make a 45 run faster in competition but you'd probably need a couple years experience to tell the difference and by then, you'd probably be taken into the world of the 38 Super and 9x23.

agtman
April 10, 2003, 10:02 PM
"...at 200gr, the 10mm is the same weight and faster so even that argument becomes invalid if comparing that bullet weight."


Correct.

The 10mm Auto represents the third ballistic alternative: HEAVY and FAST.

The 10mm's power range and versatility are simply unmatched by any other caliber that can be chambered in an autoloader of conventional size and weight.

Having said that, I'd add that the .45acp is a fine old warhorse of a cartridge, and no one carrying it for defensive use should feel underarmed.

:cool:

Tacblack
April 11, 2003, 03:36 AM
Both the 10mm and the 45acp due just fine it just comes down to what you like,think,believe in more or just want to carry.
I would go with the 10mm cause I already have 40s&w reloading stuff. If I didn't reload I would go with the 45.
The point I saw some references to plat forms and one caliber coming in a smaller gun etc. I don't know any guns wheel or autoloader that don't use the same plat form for both thier 10mm and 45acp. So that wouldn't really be a factor.

355sigfan
April 11, 2003, 04:48 AM
Part of the reason the FBI went with 45 acp for hits HRT team was Les Baer (original doubles stacks prior to the springfield) told them that the 10mm did not feed as well. Also this is data comparing the +p 45 acp 185 grain saber load at 1185 in my Glock 21 while some 175 grain silver tips averaged 1180 in my Glock 20. Thats actually less powerfull. The 230 grian ranger goes 980 and has 500 foot pounds thats good enough for me. My 20 was never as reliable as my 21. Maybe just my luck. But I have heard simular reports from others.
PAT

standingbear
April 11, 2003, 09:33 PM
and try finding a mag for a bren 10.nada nope cant.

Sean Smith
April 11, 2003, 11:18 PM
and try finding a mag for a bren 10.nada nope cant.

So what? I don't think too many people here plan on dropping $1,500 on a Bren X, assuming they can even find one... :rolleyes:

.355 Sigfan: your sample of one is noted.

As for Baer... it is worth noting that his HRT guns in .45 ACP were unreliable as hell. So excuse me if I'm not impressed. :neener:

355sigfan
April 11, 2003, 11:33 PM
Sean Smith

Such sarcasm. Actually I have owned the 20 and a Smith 610. But my experience shooting 10mm's is not limited to what I have owned. Here is a list of guns I have shot in 10mm. The 45 acp list is too long to think of.
Glock 20, 29
Colt Delta
Smith 1006
about 6 different assorted 1911's.

The fact is the 10mm shape being tall, straitwalled with truncated cone bullets does not help reliablity. Yes Baer's double stack 1911's did not work well. But most of his other guns do work well. He did not want them to go with a double stack from what I have read. The Smith 1076's the FBI issued were a huge 10mm reliability flop.

Anyway if you have a 10mm that works for you I am happy. Just you had better stock up on ammo and reloading supplies they seem to be less and less people making ammo and guns for the 10mm year by year.

PAT

Lone_Gunman
April 11, 2003, 11:49 PM
355 Sigfan:

Could you please substantiate your last statement?

Specifically which manufacturers of guns and ammo made a 10 mm last year, and dont still make it this year?

355sigfan
April 11, 2003, 11:55 PM
Lone_Gunman

I just made an observations based on my informal visits to gun shops and from scanning the internet. I still have a 10mm and need to buy loading componets and ammo for it from time to time. Not trying to write a term paper here where such facts would have to be cited and listed.
PAT

Sean Smith
April 12, 2003, 12:18 AM
Pat,

In recent years Pro Load and Triton added 10mm loads to their lineups (135gr Nosler and 155gr Quik-Shok respectively), and Texas Ammunition (small company, yeah) added an entire line of 10mm Express ammo out of the blue. None of the major companies that were making 10mm ammo before quit doing so in the last several years, at least that I'm aware of.

As for handguns... S&W re-introduced their 610 (!), and Dan Wesson introduced the 10mm Razorback, and the Pointman Major is now available in 10mm, too. The Glock 20/20c/29 and EAA Witness/Witness Compacts continue as before.

Meanwhile, oddly enough Baer makes what are by all accounts very nice and reliable versions of their Premier II in... get this... 10mm Auto. :D

Cal4D4
April 12, 2003, 04:05 AM
Regarding 10mm reliability... I have a Glock 20 (with KKM tight/supported chambered barrel, a G29 with factory barrel and a S&W 1076 (stock), shoot untumbled reloaded brass used many times at velocities in the 1000 to 1200 range and get near perfect reliability. Just one sample to add to the mix.

355sigfan
April 12, 2003, 06:04 AM
As for handguns... S&W re-introduced their 610 (!), and Dan Wesson introduced the 10mm Razorback, and the Pointman Major is now available in 10mm, too. The Glock 20/20c/29 and EAA Witness/Witness Compacts continue as before.
END

Thats all fine and dandy. I notice that you listed the 20C to expand your shot list by one. When its the same gun as the 20 for all intents and purposes. So basically you have one good revolver option, and 3 general auto options. The glocks, some 1911 and the witness guns. Texas ammo and Triton for that matter are small companies accounting to little more than a large scale reloader.

But again if your a 10mm fan, I am happy for you. If your guns reliable and you shoot it well and you have a fair supply of good ammo you should be fine. For me I just don't see it as performing any task better than a 45 acp in a standard or +p load. I love my Smith 610. I shoot it and enjoy it. If I were to do it agian I would probably buy a 625 however.
PAT

tetchaje1
April 12, 2003, 11:28 AM
I just made an observations based on my informal visits to gun shops and from scanning the internet.

Yeah, substantiated from the two biggest sources of horsecrap out there... :rolleyes:

Perhaps a bit more research into the FACTS is in order. The FBI dropped the 1076 because pansy agents couldn't handle the recoil of full-house 10mm loads. At the behest of the FBI, cartridge manufacturers started loading "FBI-lite" 10mm loads at 180gr and 950fps. Winchester and S&W then discussed shortening the cartridge because at these velocities there was a lot of wasted space in the 10mm case. Thus, the 40S&W was born.

FWIW, everything I have read about the 1076's in service is the exact opposite of what you are saying. They were reliable, accurate, and durable as tanks, but their pansy agents were scared of them.

I am skeptical of ANYTHING that I hear in a gunshop. I have heard more lies from gunshop-gurus than anywhere else. No, thank you. :barf:

355sigfan
April 12, 2003, 02:57 PM
FWIW, everything I have read about the 1076's in service is the exact opposite of what you are saying. They were reliable, accurate, and durable as tanks, but their pansy agents were scared of them.
END

Sorry but this is far from the truth. Their smiths were returned because of multiple reliability problems with the frame mounted decockers. As for the pansy agents, you try going through their academy and shooting their pistol qualification with a full house 10mm load. I think your perspective might change a little if you knew more about what your were talking about. Its one thing to plink slowfire at the range and quite another to shoot a combat course and pass.

As for lies at the gunshop I agree. Completely. But the fact that you visit 10 shops and only 2 of them have 10mm ammo does say something about demand for the cartridge.

Again if it works for you great. My observations and opinion is that it seems to be on the path of the 41 mag. It does not do much that a 45 acp can not and it has some other negatives attahed to it. Hence people are using it less and less.
PAT

Sean Smith
April 12, 2003, 03:05 PM
Hence people are using it less and less.

...except that there is no evidence that this statement is actually true. Except, of course, hearsay from PAT.

Nobody is claiming that 10mm will outsell .45 ACP anytime soon. But let's see... more guns made... more ammo to choose from... sounds like the death-rattle of 10mm to me. :rolleyes:

355sigfan
April 12, 2003, 03:12 PM
Well Sean look at where it is today compared to about 6 years ago of so. Colt no longer makes a 10mm, Smith no longer makes any of the autos, Springfield no longer makes any 10mm's. A few other companies that used to make them no longer do. Today if you want a 10mm you have very limited choices unless you go the custom gun route.

As far as ammo goes if you want full power defensive ammo from a major manufactuer your pretty much stuck with Winchesters Silvertip. This round has even been defanged a bit. It started at 1290 now from what my chrono shows its at 1180. Their have been articles in the various gun rags talking about the down turn of the 10mm. You can go to gun shops and see it in smaller and smaller qualities. What other evidence do you need.
PAT

jato
April 12, 2003, 06:52 PM
...except that there is no evidence that this statement is actually true. Except, of course, hearsay from PAT.

Down my way the 10mm is almost dead. Ammo is hard to find. 10mm guns are hard to find. Owners of 10mm guns are hard to find.

That being said, I have an old G20. :D

I am a fan of the 10mm, but they are next to dead in my area.

As for the Smith autos, I have also heard of reliability problems as well... From people who have owned them. I have heard nothing but negative comments.

I generally agree with PAT.

jato
April 12, 2003, 06:56 PM
As to the FBI issue, I don't know why they quit using 10mm. I suspect it was for many reasons.

I know most plain clothes officers don't like to carry big, heavy, powerful guns. Okay, so they are wimps!

jc2
April 12, 2003, 07:36 PM
Sorry but this is far from the truth. Their smiths were returned because of multiple reliability problems with the frame mounted decockers.
Sorry, PAT, but you are far from the truth. There was a reliability problem with the 1076 when it was first issued to the FBI due to modifications the FBI demanded S&W make. (Sounds a lot like NJSP and the SW99--the agency screws up and S&W gets the blame). The problems were quickly remedied, and the 1076 became one of the most rugged and reliable LE weapons available serving in the bureau and other LE agencies (and still in service, I might add).

As for ammo availability, if I were to use your technique, based "an [sic] observations based on my informal visits to gun shops and from scanning the internet," I'd say the 10mm is in better shape than the 357 Sig. In the local stores, ammunition for both is a little hard to find, and when you do, there's usually only a limited variety--though normally at least you have choice between Remington and PMC FMJs for the 10, and you are stuck with Speer for the 357. When you go to the internet, it is a different story--there are far more varieties 10mm available (roughly twice) than 357 Sig.

As to weapons availability, I haven't seen a lot of either in any gunstore recently though the last time I was in the nearest "big" town there were more 10s available (in the form of used G20s and S&Ws) than 357s. In terms of new weapons, for all practical purposes, you are limited to Glock and Sig for the 357 and Glock and EAA for 10mm--not a real significant difference. I guess it's just how you want to spin things, right?

I do know that used S&Ws tend to be hard to find and demand a premium price (and not from collectors), G20s don't stay on the shelves, and the wait for Dan Wessons is ridiculous--somehow, I don't see just a whole lot demand for a $900 357 you have to wait six months or more for delivery. There must be something a 10mm market out there.

DeltaElite
April 12, 2003, 08:43 PM
Well if Pat is tolling the death bell for the 10mm, then I better sell all of mine. :neener:

The FBI agents couldn't handle the 10mm gun. Wahhhhhhhhhhhhhh
They claimed they were too heavy to carry all day. Wahhhhhhhhhhh
The 10mm has too much recoil for the pansies that have come into Le in the last two decades. Wahhhhhhhhhhh

The 10mm has gotten and still continues to get a bad rap, primarily due to urban gun legends.
Between wimps in Le and gun shop commandos, it's no wonder the cartridge has problems gaining popularity.

CZF
April 12, 2003, 10:17 PM
As i recall..the FBI LOAD was a 180 gr bullet at only 900 fps.
The Federal 180 loads are very pleasant to shoot.

I had a 1076 that was MINT when i bought it. The gun was both
heavy and 100% reliable..aging Novak style nights. Just heavier
than my Witness, and it being DA so i sold it at a good profit. The guy that bought it just loves it. He shoots only factory ammo.

I have no doubt that PAT prefers the .357 SIG or 45 ACP.
As a former 10MM owner he does have some points. I'll
keep shooting my TEN until i can no longer buy brass.
If such happens, i have the option of a Witness .45 kit
or maybe .38 super.

Right now.. i like the .40 caliber bullet at around 1200 fps.
I think it better for defense against dangerous animals
like bear and cougar, than a .357 Magnum or .357 SIG...
or even a .45 JHP.

When talking with hunters here and reading on various
boards. The choice for Black Bear is .44/.41 and some the
10mm. Nobody has mentioned the .45 as a good bear
cartridge, unless it's a handloaded .45 COLT or a 454.

rick458
April 12, 2003, 10:19 PM
The Ten MM works well for a hunting round where as the .45 ACP does not

355sigfan
April 12, 2003, 11:57 PM
Sorry, PAT, but you are far from the truth. There was a reliability problem with the 1076 when it was first issued to the FBI due to modifications the FBI demanded S&W make. (Sounds a lot like NJSP and the SW99--the agency screws up and S&W gets the blame). The problems were quickly remedied, and the 1076 became one of the most rugged and reliable LE weapons available serving in the bureau and other LE agencies (and still in service, I might add).
END

Well actually I feel I am a bit closer to the truth than you are. The 1076 was in FBI hands a very short time. It was not popular and it did have reliability problems. And yes a handfull are still being used by some agents I am sure.

As for the 357 sig it has a long list of agencies currently using it and the ammo list is also large especially if you count the leo only offerings. Like Ranger and Federals Tactical line. As for hunting the 45 acp with +p loads will take just about anything you could or should take with a 10mm.

But hey I am not trolling here as I was accused of. So I will leave by saying enjoy shooting your 10mm. I will enjoy shooting my 610 from time to time. We will have to agree to disagree. Time will decide this debate.
PAT

WESHOOT2
April 13, 2003, 09:44 AM
IMNSLE the 10mm can get near 'normal' 41 Magnum ammo, but when pushed the 41 goes WAY beyond.
200g 10mm can go faster than you think (and 220's at over 1200fps are fairly stout and available, too).

It comes down to platform and user..........
I sold my M20. (Would like to add a 10mm Witness and GP100, though. When Ruger makes it :D )

WESHOOT2
April 13, 2003, 09:46 AM
41 Mag 170g JHC @ 1700fps, 210g @1500fps, 230g @ 1400fps.....

Just look at powder capacity :what:

jc2
April 13, 2003, 10:34 AM
The 1076 was in FBI hands a very short time. It was not popular and it did have reliability problems. And yes a handfull are still being used by some agents I am sure.
You're right in that it had some reliability problems (largely the bureau's fault) that were quickly fixed. You're right in that it was not "popular" (hell of reason to select or not select a serious weapon), but you are wrong in connecting the two issues (reliability and "popularity")--theywere not related. The lawyers and accountants in the bureau's ranks wanted comfortable not comforting, but many "street agents" did hang on to their 1076s, and it also experienced a great deal of LE success outside the bureau including being adopted (and still in use) by one state police agency.

SIGarmed
April 14, 2003, 12:37 AM
The reason I like the .45 is because of the availability and selection of ammo, also its great for self defense. You can still get 10mm pretty easy, and its stout. The thing that many people don't mention is their intended purpose for the caliber. If its for using on animals in the bush than the 10mm pretty much beats the .45, or I'd rather have the 10mm for that purpose.

In the self defense lineup .45 ammo is good not only because of its heavy caliber but also because of modern bullet design. I think there is a better selection of improved bullet designs for the .45 ACP. Thats not to say the 10mm wouldn't be good for self defense, but there are less off of the shelf self defense ammo choices for it.

neviander
June 29, 2008, 12:47 PM
No one has said anything about over penetration in a self defense situation. I would imagine the 10mm is more likely to go through more walls/obstacles than the .45acp; if you ever had to fire at an intruder having just woke from a dead sleep. I just don't like the thought of my well intentioned bullet trying to protect my family accidentally killing my neighbor. It sounds like an awesome round for just about everything else though.

R.W.Dale
June 29, 2008, 04:14 PM
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