Resident, thieves in shootout


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Desertdog
January 16, 2006, 01:07 PM
This is a incident where, to me, the good guy was a little foolish. To me, he should have called the police and not gotten involved. At least he wasn't hurt.

Resident, thieves in shootout
Pair fire on man who replies in kind; no one hurt

By Christy Arnold
Enquirer staff writer


WEST PRICE HILL - George Jones Jr. saw two people breaking into cars Thursday near Pedretti Avenue and West Eighth Street.

"He was going to stop the thefts from the cars," said Cincinnati police Capt. Drew Raabe.

Instead, he sparked a gunfight around 10:30 p.m., police say.

Police say residents should call them if they see something suspicious. In other words, pick up the phone and not a pistol.

The car burglars shot at Jones, who was also armed and shot back.

"He fired three shots back at them," Raabe said.

Jones, 53, was not hit - neither were the burglars.

Police are looking for the two burglars and witnesses who may have seen the gun battle, Raabe said.

They are also investigating Jones' account of the shooting.

Efforts to reach Jones Friday were unsuccessful.

"We would rather they call the police," Raabe said. "I understand everyone has the right to protect their property ... but we would rather they call police."

A person who shoots a burglar can face criminal charges, regardless of whether it was self-defense. The person must prove to a jury he didn't provoke the incident, believed he was in danger of death or great harm and attempted to leave the situation, said Mark Piepmeier, assistant Hamilton County prosecutor.

Anyone with information about Thursday's shooting can call Crime Stoppers at (513) 352-3040.

Officers investigated 144 car thefts in East Price Hill and 213 in West Price Hill during the first 11 months of 2005. Officers also looked into 565 larcenies in East Price Hill and 621 in West Price Hill. More than 600 burglaries were reported across Price Hill during the same time period as well.

E-mail carnold@enquirer.com

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Biker
January 16, 2006, 01:15 PM
"A person who shoots a burglar can still face criminal charges, regardless of whether it was self defense".
Can someone explain this to me? When did it become a crime to shoot back in "self defense"?
Biker

Helmetcase
January 16, 2006, 01:29 PM
"A person who shoots a burglar can still face criminal charges, regardless of whether it was self defense".
Can someone explain this to me? When did it become a crime to shoot back in "self defense"?
Biker
In a lot of places, if you could have just walked away, it's not self defense.

If you confront a burglar and provoke a fight, you're not going to be able to use self defense as an affirmative defense. If a guy is walking out your front door with your TV, you can try to stop him, but you can't use deadly force if you could have simply walked away. Even a criminal's life is considered more important than the value of material property.

That's not true everywhere, from what I understand you can shoot to defend property in Texas. I've read about a repo man shot to death, and the shooter getting acquitted.

El Tejon
January 16, 2006, 01:30 PM
Biker, well, since you asked.:D (Just speculation, don't know anymore than the article).

Would not be self-defense if the police thought that Jones was the initial aggressor or had provoked the fight for example.

Biker
January 16, 2006, 01:37 PM
For me, the key words were, "..regardless of whether it was self defense."
That would imply, well, you were faced with no choice but to defend yourself. If you fired first, okay, I can see that problem, but self defense seems to be self defining. Maybe I'm just looking at it skewed.
Biker

El Tejon
January 16, 2006, 01:43 PM
Biker, don't forget, lots of people "claim" self-defense.:D

I've had guys who shoot fellow drug dealers in the head as drug dealer A is running away. Or I "accidently shot him 8 time with a 5 shot revolver."

Lots of people claim self-defense. With the media involved, it's hard to tell what happened.:D

As to your concerns, remember what that nasty old El Tejon says about Problem #2 (big meanie won't let us shoot anyone): when you shoot a fellow human being, expect to go to jail. Self-defense is an affirmative defense, meaning one must be charged with something.

I'd rather not be charged than to have a defense but that's just me.:D

Biker
January 16, 2006, 01:47 PM
True enough, ET. I guess that it can be hazardous to your health to get between a man and his 'tree'.:evil:
Biker

Desertdog
January 16, 2006, 03:12 PM
"We would rather they call the police," Raabe said. "I understand everyone has the right to protect their property ... but we would rather they call police."
A person who shoots a burglar can face criminal charges, regardless of whether it was self-defense.
Sounds contridictory to me.

A person who shoots a burglar can face criminal charges, regardless of whether it was self-defense. Probably so in OHIO, but not in all states.

The person must prove to a jury he didn't provoke the incident, believed he was in danger of death or great harm and attempted to leave the situation, said Mark Piepmeier, assistant Hamilton County prosecutor. In this case they would probably say he provoked the incident by trying to stop the burglery and not just calling the cops. He could have gone home and stayed out of it.

Sounds to me, as this is written, he could have all kinds of trouble if he had shot one of them, even if they shot first.

IMO, they need to change some laws.

sdchuck1
January 16, 2006, 03:22 PM
I think that as a lawful gun owner that works hard and pays all my dues A person should be able to be armed and confront someone that is stealing even if they are not stealing from you. If a perp has the nerve to go breaking into peoples cars and stealing radios, cd's, and other personal items then he/she should be ready for the owner or a nieghbor of the owner to confront him and hold him until the police arrive. I live in a suburb of San Diego and I know that when my car was broken into it took the police 7 hours to come and take a statement. If I would have said I have the guy and I am holding him at bay until you arrive it may have only taken 3 hours. Damn tweakers!!!!

Coop de Ville
January 16, 2006, 03:36 PM
What about "citizen arrest??"

As a cop in DC I know that citizens may, in fact, effect and arrest of someone committing crime. Most of the time the perps are held against their will until we arrive (usually with some unavoidable injuries to themselves :) .

One can use that force necessary to effect the arrest. If the perp ups the level of force, we go a step further until the perp is in custody...

As a citizen, one can confront a perp and attempt to stop a crime... if it escalates, so be it...

Of course, in DC you can't be armed with anything :banghead: but in other areas it makes sense.

-Coop

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