Norinco M14?


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Sulaco
January 17, 2006, 05:07 PM
Anyone know much about Norinco M14's? I know where one is for about $350.00 and was wondering if it is worth it. Any good sites on these?

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Lambo
January 17, 2006, 05:18 PM
This Dealer http://www.marstar.ca/gf-norinco/index-lg.shtm in Canada is selling the Norinco M14S (New Condition) for about that same price. The thing is, they can't be imported into the U.S. !:fire: If not for this I would buy one or two for myself!

Flatfender
January 17, 2006, 05:37 PM
A Norinco M14 for $350 is a steal. They're pretty good copies. I have a Polytech M14 that I paid $750 for about 2 years ago. No problems. I did have the headspace checked before I shot it.

Here's an evaluation from Fulton Armory that I think is full of it:
http://www.fulton-armory.com/M14S_Eval.htm

Here are some threads:
http://www.gunsnet.net/forums/showthread.php?t=266578&highlight=norinco
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=135896&highlight=norinco+m14
http://www.falfiles.com/forums/showthread.php?threadid=141973&highlight=norinco+m14

Sulaco
January 17, 2006, 05:52 PM
Thanks for the info. So the consensus is that $350.00 is a good deal? I guess I need to pickup some headspace guages. Who has the best prices on these? Is the field guage really the only one I need?

Also, who has the best online info for these? I want to learn how to maintain them, detail strip them, etc. I have always wanted a MBR and always looked at the FAL's because of price, but now that I am changing gears, I have a lot to learn.

Thanks again.

TechBrute
January 17, 2006, 06:50 PM
Does no one else have a problem with buying a junk copy of an American battle rifle from the Chinese?

neoncowboy
January 17, 2006, 06:56 PM
Does no one else have a problem with buying a junk copy of an American battle rifle from the Chinese?

+1

It seems inconsistent to me too that the kind of man who would want such a rifle as this...would be willing to accept a chinese knockoff.

<shrug>

hillbilly
January 17, 2006, 06:58 PM
I own a Norinco M14 copy.

I don't think it's junk.

In fact, I actually upgraded mine with a Kreiger barrel and synthetic stock with an action bedding job.

Even with the upgrades added to the original cost of the rifle, it's still cheaper than a comparable Springfield by quite a bit, and will do 1 to 1.5 inch groups with 168 grain handloads.

I have no problem whatsoever.

The money I spent went to my local FFL dealer, not the Chinese. Any money the Chinese were getting out of this rifle, they got back in 1991 or so when it was first imported.

hillbilly

Mad Bodhi
January 17, 2006, 07:26 PM
The Norinco/Poly is an excellent rifle,forged receiver,forged one-piece op rod,excellent chrome lined barrel etc.In many respects it is superior to any currently produced M14 type rifle with LRB being the only exception,But it does have some issues,some minor some not.Minor issues include,gas lock thread is not the same as G.I.,Gas system not chrome lined, short connector lock pin(not an issue unless installing a G.I.stock),and rear sights are a crap shoot.Some are fine some are not.The only major issue is that headspace tends to be long and some bolts are soft which can become dangerous.Most people err on the side of caution and have a G.I. bolt fitted.I would the check headspace,if it's ok then record it and recheck every couple of hundred rounds or if there are signs of excessive headspace.When/if it becomes unacceptable then have a G.I. bolt fitted.http://warbirdscustomguns.com/Rifle%20Shop%20services.htm has lot's of experience with these conversions.http://www.m-14forum.com/forumdisplay.php?f=21
A good M14 specific forum.
350 is a steal as the average price for these lately has been between 600 and 800.

Sulaco
January 17, 2006, 07:37 PM
Does no one else have a problem with buying a junk copy of an American battle rifle from the Chinese?


+1

It seems inconsistent to me too that the kind of man who would want such a rifle as this...would be willing to accept a chinese knockoff.

<shrug>



I am buying it second hand. The damage is done.

But let me ask you a question, do you own a Ruger firearm? Did you buy it new? How about Levi Strauss & Co. Jeans? Dockers? Do you see where this is going? I think if you don't have anything positive to add to the post, you should take the High Road right on outa' here.

briang2ad
January 17, 2006, 07:38 PM
could have bought one at $300 years ago when they filled racks at Woolworth's (in our mall back home). BUT,,, the conventional wisdom was that they were of questionable compatibility in parts, and the metallurgy might be shaky. I would have loved to have an M14, but passed because of all the bad press. Admittedly, their finish was not so hot, but if they are like my SKS - rugged and acccurate!

Now... you guys make me feel like a shoulda got one!

mrmeval
January 17, 2006, 07:51 PM
You proclaim it's junk but I've not seen it except from those who have a vested interest in convincing people it's junk.

I had a Norinco 1911A1 and it was better than Springfield at the time.

Does no one else have a problem with buying a junk copy of an American battle rifle from the Chinese?

mrmeval
January 17, 2006, 07:53 PM
For some Ruger can do no wrong even if they've done more than any foreigner has to damage gun rights. I don't worship at that alter.


I am buying it second hand. The damage is done.

But let me ask you a question, do you own a Ruger firearm? Did you buy it new? How about Levi Strauss & Co. Jeans? Dockers? Do you see where this is going? I think if you don't have anything positive to add to the post, you should take the High Road right on outa' here.

MechAg94
January 17, 2006, 08:05 PM
My Dad has a Polytech. I would say it doesn't feel as good as his Armscorp M1A, but it works and it is accurate enough.

Dr.Rob
January 17, 2006, 08:18 PM
Without bashing anyone's politics or parentage or stand on tariffs... the question remains, at THAT price is it a good buy?

I have to say that while the price might seem attractive I've heard that a Polytech/Norinco M-14 is a real crapshoot over the years, both here and at TFL. The reciever itself was always the issue in the old days... something about improper heat treating.

I would expect to get a semi-auto .308 rifle that works at that price, not a rifle that rivals an M-1A in fit, finish, parts compatibility or accuracy.

As long as you are comfortable with the difference, it seems like a good price.

Throttle_monkey1
January 17, 2006, 08:39 PM
over at www.canadiangunnutz.com, there are hundreds of people with norinco m14s (or m305s) are they're called. They are good guns and most people have no complaints with them. for 400$ canadian, you can just as much fun considered a springfield m14 costs minimum 2000$ here

longhorngunman
January 17, 2006, 08:58 PM
Right now any .308 battlerifle you can buy for $350 is a good deal, even a Cetme. I've always heard of much worse issues with the Springfield varients than the chinese guns. Don't let the fact that their made in China worry you, they're making guns not nuclear-tipped warheads(well those too:neener: ). BTW what's the problem with buying chinese guns, that's the free market at work and it's unfortunate that we can't buy new ones now. I'd gladly buy an American M1A if they could compete pricewise, but thanks to over-regulation, taxes, paying obscene employee benefits, they can't compete.

Thefabulousfink
January 17, 2006, 09:01 PM
Does no one else have a problem with buying a junk copy of an American battle rifle from the Chinese?

I would have a problem with it except for the fact that what should be a readily available mil-surplus rifle is extremely restricted and US made clones are only available at an inflated price.

So until the US Gov. and US manufacturers get their heads out of their collective a$$es I fell no desire to "buy American" where the M-14 is concerned.:cuss:

220_Swift
January 17, 2006, 09:06 PM
Here is my thoughts, for what it's worth. If you are not planning any serious target shooting/competition you will not be dissapointed. And the average shooter, like myself, would probably never be able to tell the difference between the $350 model and the $1200 model in terms of accuracy with iron sights. JMHO Good luck

TechBrute
January 17, 2006, 09:20 PM
I, admittedly, have no experience with the chinese knockoff M14. However, I do have experience with their junk 870 knockoff and have seen the quality of their winchester cowboy knockoff (the model number escapes me.) I stand by my assertion that Norinco produces junk. I have no vested interest, I am stating my view. Junk junk junk junk.

Junkity junkity junkity junkity.

Oh, and them being chinese has nothing to do with my assertion that they are junk. I was just pointing out the irony of the chinese producing an american battle rifle ripoff.

Junk junk junk junk.

bofe954
January 17, 2006, 09:24 PM
I have a springfield M1A and for $350 I think I would buy a Norinco knock off. I would have to have it in my hands to be sure.

Like longhorn posted, $350 is just a good deal for any kind of rifle like that, even AK's are starting to cost more than $350.

Get it, for sure. You can buy it use it and sell it later for $350.

Shoot it, accrue magazines, tools etc. If you really like the platform and want something a little better you can pony up for a springfield/fulton whatever. You'll already have ammo, mags and tools around. If you aren't crazy about it you'll have a copy of an M1A to play around with without having thousands wrapped up in it.

Sulaco
January 17, 2006, 09:55 PM
I have a springfield M1A and for $350 I think I would buy a Norinco knock off. I would have to have it in my hands to be sure.

Like longhorn posted, $350 is just a good deal for any kind of rifle like that, even AK's are starting to cost more than $350.

Get it, for sure. You can buy it use it and sell it later for $350.

Shoot it, accrue magazines, tools etc. If you really like the platform and want something a little better you can pony up for a springfield/fulton whatever. You'll already have ammo, mags and tools around. If you aren't crazy about it you'll have a copy of an M1A to play around with without having thousands wrapped up in it.

This is kindof how I am looking at it also. Even if I don't like it I can always get my money back out of it. And then some. ;)

Steve Smith
January 17, 2006, 10:11 PM
I think some of you might want to take a step away from the computer and re-think your comments here. A man has a right to buy what he wants so please leave it at that and answer the man's questions as best you can.

Personally I have seen some fine shooting Norincos and Polytechs. I figure if they've already been bought in the US once then China has the money. Now I'm just redistributing my US dollars to another US citizen.

odysseus
January 17, 2006, 10:21 PM
$350 sounds very good assuming it has had a reasonable life so far. The Norinco/Polytech is regarded well my many a m14/m1a shooter.

I have not shot one myself, but I have shot several Norinco 1911 pistols, and all for the price where good.

Also for those complaining about Chinese rifles, I assume then you also don't ever want any of those other foreign Soviet-block rifles either, right?

SemiAutoMan
January 17, 2006, 10:32 PM
Almost all guns have a problem eventually as for chineese I love my dads norinco sks and I use norinco sks ammo all the time what I have found so far and I buy alot of guns just to see how much they can take before they go to the parts bins is that of the guns I have had.

Lorcin L380=Always junk jams every 2 shots just to be different it jams every shot at times.

Jennings J-22=Mostly junk jams every 3 or 4 shots but for $30 I couldn't pass up a chance for a play and no money lost when it blows up gun.

Daisy legacy 22=One of the best I have had it 11 years and never any problems (and I shoot over 1k shells a week threw it.

FEG PA-63 9x18 Mak=From what I have done with it so far good gun a few things get loose and need tightened every now and then.

Yugo SKS=Great gun although I did run into a few that needed new gas pistons after a few 1,000 shots.

Siaga 20=Decent gun from what I have heard but I am currently fixing an ejector problem on mine.

British 303=Great rifle never a problem with it as of yet.

1910 German puppy municipal= Blew up in my hand but hey it lasted 95 years before it blew up so would rate it as a good gun.

Think I will quit there but I challenge myself to put cheap guns threw the worst conditions ever and if they come out on top I buy more to play with.

But my point is that every firearm is different they have good and bad based on year and on who was working that day and made a mistake so you can't judge a gun by 1 bad run in yeah it sux when you waste money on a gun and it breaks but hey you live you learn and buy better next time.

Mad Bodhi
January 17, 2006, 11:12 PM
Check headspace and shoot it.When and if you feel the need you can upgrade the parts to g.i.. You can put 800 dollars into it and have a custom built rifle superior to a Springfield and still have less money into it.Just so you know though,many people get 1 inch groups out of these rifles even with all the original parts.

Farnham
January 17, 2006, 11:31 PM
Wish I could find one at that price! GET IT!

Check over at www.battlerifles.com and read some more on the Norincos and Polytechs if you don't believe me. Somebody over there measured a bunch of Chinese receivers and found them to be more dimensionally accurate to the original design drawings than most of the SA receivers. IIRC, it's still recommended that the receivers be checked for hardness, they can be properly heat treated if they aren't up to snuff.

S/F

Farnham

Flatfender
January 18, 2006, 01:00 AM
Does no one else have a problem with buying a junk copy of an American battle rifle from the Chinese?

My Polytech is not junk. If I wanted junk I'd go buy a mini-14 - which is a scaled down copy of an american battle rifle. Guess which one?

I have a chinese norinco polytech AK47 copy too. It's a way better than the import junk from europe. I also have a south american FAL copy. That's not junk either.

We all can't afford uber-priced new Springfields or even an orginal M14 like I'm sure you can.

xd45gaper
January 18, 2006, 01:34 AM
no way would i buy that, i would rather save my pennies and buy the orginal springfield model.

i see them at gunshops all the time for less than 2000.00 more like the 1100-1300 range. and you get american made quality instead of a cheap lookalike.

So many US companys are going over seas to have there goods manufactured because its cheap. why would you want to support one more item. espcially a factory that is helping Iran build its Nukes. Just a thought. but im not telling you where to spend your money. but think about your grandkids or children when Iran and China starts shooting Nukes over at us with Norinco products in its missles...

mrmeval
January 18, 2006, 02:25 AM
Would it matter if they shot at us with US made weapons? I want a good rifle. I have a certain amount of dollars. Springfield wants more than I can afford. I will go with what I can buy.

There wouldn't be as many shooters now if not for the inexpensive imports both new and surplus. Those shooters will eventually move up to better guns. I did. I won't sneer at something that helps create more gun owners, especially poor people.

no way would i buy that, i would rather save my pennies and buy the orginal springfield model.

i see them at gunshops all the time for less than 2000.00 more like the 1100-1300 range. and you get american made quality instead of a cheap lookalike.

Draven32
January 18, 2006, 04:15 AM
+1

It seems inconsistent to me too that the kind of man who would want such a rifle as this...would be willing to accept a chinese knockoff.

<shrug>

Please explain how Norinco/Polytech M-14Ses are knockoffs. They are made on the original M-14 production equipment, which we sold to Taiwan, and Taiwan sold it to China several years later with our direct permission. More like, the Springfield Armory versions are a 'knock-off'.

TechBrute
January 18, 2006, 09:03 AM
We all can't afford uber-priced new Springfields or even an orginal M14 like I'm sure you can.
What I can and can't afford is irrelevant to you and this conversation. The conversation is about the Norinco gun. The original poster never asked if he should wait and buy a Springfield. He asked if the Norinco was a good deal. And, if you weren't busy putting words in my mouth, you'd notice that I NEVER recommended Springfield. I've seen some real turds come out of their place lately, and I wouldn't buy one anytime soon.

Of course my response is that it is not a good deal. It would never be a good deal. Any manufacturer that you can't just assume it will work off the rack qualifies as junk is my opinion. 100% of the Norincos that I have personal experience have had serious failures. That is relevant information. It seems that the best thing anyone has to say about them is that they may or may not be servicable.

If I had $350 to spend on a rifle, it wouldn't be on a Norinco. If you are arbitrarily telling yourself that you have $350 to spend on a M14, then you don't have much of a choice, now do you? I don't remember the original poster asking what the best M14 under $400 is.

Edited to add: And Flatfender, I am not going to apologize for having specific standards in firearms that I purchase and recommend, no matter how many "sour grapes" comments I get from people who don't even know me.

longhorngunman
January 18, 2006, 09:25 AM
If it appears to be in decent shape, get the rifle. Still want answers go to the www.battlerifles.com forums, these guys know their M14's and M1's a lot better than some of the responses your getting here. Plus it IS made in China so it probably built better than what is being built here.

Sulaco
January 18, 2006, 09:45 AM
Thanks for the responses guys. I am a long time THR member and was an original member over at TFL back before they closed (and re-opened). I like the community, which is why I posted. I did not expect to start a war of the words and I kind of wish now that the Mods would just close this thread. To those of you who have posted helpful and insightful information, as always, I appreciate it. :)

hillbilly
January 18, 2006, 09:58 AM
Sulaco, I hope you enjoy your Nornico M14 that you're going to get a great price on.

But I don't think the thread should be closed because of a "war of words."

Just where is this war on this thread?

hillbilly

Spiggy
January 18, 2006, 04:47 PM
you get american made quality instead of a cheap lookalike...
In this day in age, that doesnt mean much anymore... When was the last time you saw a decent US-made DVD player? Car? how about a phone?

It seems that we've been degraded to rely on foreign production so long that the only thing we seem to be good at is making ammo and dumping it on some poor foreign nation that we didnt even know existed.

Needless to say, "Quality" is variable and without relation to what country it's made from

Lambo
January 18, 2006, 05:22 PM
Right now any .308 battlerifle you can buy for $350 is a good deal, even a Cetme. I've always heard of much worse issues with the Springfield varients than the chinese guns. Don't let the fact that their made in China worry you, they're making guns not nuclear-tipped warheads(well those too:neener: ). BTW what's the problem with buying chinese guns, that's the free market at work and it's unfortunate that we can't buy new ones now. I'd gladly buy an American M1A if they could compete pricewise, but thanks to over-regulation, taxes, paying obscene employee benefits, they can't compete.
I think it's only Regulations & Taxes:banghead: . Try starting a Business in the U.S. now days. You better like jumping through a thousand Hoops and don't fall on your Ass in doing it!:D

30Cal
January 18, 2006, 05:31 PM
Please explain how Norinco/Polytech M-14Ses are knockoffs. They are made on the original M-14 production equipment, which we sold to Taiwan, and Taiwan sold it to China several years later with our direct permission. More like, the Springfield Armory versions are a 'knock-off'.

Nope. The H&R tooling is not being used by Norinco/Polytech. Taiwan never collaborated with mainland China. They reverse engineered the rifle in the early 60's from captured USGI weapons, well before the tooling ever left the States. See Emerson's book below.

http://www.imageseek.com/m1a/book.html

Ty

colt.45
January 18, 2006, 06:41 PM
why settle for less, chinese stuff sucks, and do you really want to support sweat shops and child labor:D seeriously, i have had a very bad experience with every gun, airgun or anything from china. but it has that sweet price, so i guess its a good deal. i wouldnt buy it though

AZ Jeff
January 18, 2006, 07:08 PM
Nope. The H&R tooling is not being used by Norinco/Polytech. Taiwan never collaborated with mainland China. They reverse engineered the rifle in the early 60's from captured USGI weapons, well before the tooling ever left the States. See Emerson's book below.

http://www.imageseek.com/m1a/book.html

Ty
Ty is right about the Red Chinese developing their own tooling for the Norinco M14 copy.

At $350, a Norinco copy of an M14 is a total steal. Even if EVERY PART except the reciever is junk (and no M1A/M14 builder has ever reported the Norinco receivers to be bad), the reciever itself is worth every penny of $350. SA charges a LOT more than that for their receiver!!

If that deal was available to me, I would buy the rifle, have the headspaced checked, and shoot it a while. Then I would have the headspace rechecked (as Norinco bolts are often soft). If the headspace is opening up, some fitting of selected GI parts might be in order.

Even if you had to eventually replace every single part except the reciever with GI pieces, you would be money ahead.

hillbilly
January 18, 2006, 07:22 PM
Sulaco, here is an old thread I posted about hardness testing and headspacing on a Norinco M14 way back when.......

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=88792&highlight=norinco+bolt

My Norinco had been purchased new by a military competition shooter, and stuck back in a locker. It had never been fired when I bought it. In fact, there was no carbon fouling on the oprod or in the oprod channel.

Not long after the headspace check that the thread above details, I upgraded that sucker.


My Norinco cost the following

Rifle $700 (tax included, out the door)
Kreiger barrel off E-bay $220 (including shipping)
Barrel swap at gunsmith $50
New synthetic stock off THR classifieds $40 shipped
Bedding job, relief cuts on synthetic stock $100

Grand total is $1110.

Compare that to the current price of a NIB Springfield Milspec M14.

And with the NIB Springer Milspec, you do not get a Kregier barrel, nor do you get an action bedding job, nor the proper relief cuts to free float the barrel properly.

hillbilly

Spiggy
January 18, 2006, 07:40 PM
do you really want to support sweat shops and child labor:D
I like that take, It means you want to stop eating Hershey's chocolate and visiting Disney company establishments... Hershey chocolate is picked by child labor in african cocoa farms, and disney(&co) is notoriously famous for abusing overseas labourers... well, any labourers for that matter.

P-32
January 18, 2006, 07:59 PM
If you haven't already bought the Rifle do so now! At $350.00, even if the thing was Junk as others have said, it can be built into a fine shooter.

Sulaco
January 23, 2006, 11:29 PM
I bought it. Here's a pic.

I think the front sight is canted a tad, but I am not positive. I can't get the flash suppressor or the gas block off though. I even tried beating them off with a wood block, some penetrating oil and a mallet. They are on the barrel good and tight. If this thing has been shot 50 times, I would be surprised. The gas system is very clean and the rest of the rifle shows little wear.

I want to get the headspacing checked and then I think I will just shoot it and see how it does.

http://www.pbase.com/sulaco/image/55235238.jpg

hillbilly
January 24, 2006, 12:15 AM
The gunsmith who put the Kreiger barrel onto my Norinco M14 had to cut the flash hider nut in half to get the original fake flash hider off.

The nut had been tack welded into place at the factory, apparently.

hillbilly

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