[walking arsenal]

Though I dont think the wolf ammo was the culprit.

The story.

I had a furious customer come into our shop yesterday. He demanded the number for wolf ammuniton. The reason he wanted the number was because he had just had his FAL explode in his face and the ammo he was using he'd bought from our store.

Some how that was my fault.

He explained between cursing that he had 3 jams prior to the case head letting go on the fourth round. That blew the mag and i dont know what else (he was a little pissed) off the weapon.

I told him that i thought that his gun had fired out of battery. Not knowing if this was possible with FALs.

He assured me that this was impossible, and promptly left.

Hope he gets his issue fixed.

[thereisnospoon]

Which issue, the out of battery prolem or the anger management thing?

I'm now convinced the whole world should be on some type of mind altering substance...

[walking arsenal]

I agree and yes to both answers.

[Buzztail]

I'm now convinced the whole world should be on some type of mind altering substance...

I tried but all I got was the liquid form, and I had no spoon:D

[Draven32]

Sounds like his gas adjustment wasn't right for the Wolf.

[444]

http://www.dsarms.com/pressure_test.cfm

I seriously doubt that the ammo caused his problems, although it is possible. In the above link, the case was loaded to full capacity with a fast burning pistol powder and a bullet that is far heavier than a normal .308 bullet. It is highly unlikely that any ammunition manufacturer did that. In my experience as a handloader, you are usually working right at the capacity of the case for powder in rifle catridges. You couldn't get enough of the normal powder in the case to cause something like this. This isn't like double charging a pistol round, there isn't enough room in a rifle case to get more than a grain or two more of powder in the case assuming you are using the right powder for a .308 rifle. And even if this happened, it wouldn't just happen to one round, thousands of people would be posting similar stories.

[Vex]

The customer stated that he had 3 jams, and then the critical failure. I wonder if he used the same round through the 3 jams and eventually got it to fire? I had a problem with some crappy ammo (i don't want to mention names) where I had a feeding jam, and then discovered that the slug was pushed into the case approximately 1 to 2 mm. Scary.

So what kind of jams? Fail to eject? Fail to feed? If he had a fail to feed, did he then use the same round again?

Sorry, I guess that's too many questions for someone that wasn't physically a witness to the incident. Just take them as theoretical questions....

[Detritus]

Wow, he managed to get a rifle to function in january near Duluth.... dang <j/k

sorry, couldn't resist. my father spent a couple years up there in the 60's with the 87th FIS and he still tells "it was so cold" jokes.

[walking arsenal]

Vex

They were failures to eject. I remember him griping about having to pound the bolt open.

Detritus

Not cold at all this year, harbors not even frozen over yet and the ships are still coming in. It's kinda ridiculous, 30+ degrees until just this week.

[Draven32]

ok, like i said, sounds like his gas system wasn't adjusted for Wolf in the FTE.

[Coronach]

So, we've talked about who made his ammo.

Who made his gun?

FALs are tanks, but they can suffer from less than ideal builds *cough*Hesse*cough*, and there were some aluminum-receivered ones made that are more like IEDs than rifles.

Any info?

Mike

[TechBrute]

In a parallel to Coronach's comments, I wish the title wasn't something that seemed to point to Wolf being the problem if you were just browsing the titles on the forum.

Anyway, agree that it is probably gas related. I'd be interested to know if there was any damage to the rifle.

Was "explode in his face" his words or yours? Just curious, and did it look like it did? I've seen guns explode in someones face, and it's not all that pretty. One of the guys I used to shoot with wears a beard now to cover the scars.

[walking arsenal]

Dunno who made his gun, I asked him to bring it in so i could get a good look at it, he was pretty pissed at the time but said he might do that.

"Explode in face" His words, not mine. And yeah it looked like it did.

As for the title, got you to post here didn't it?:)

[TechBrute]

Doesn't take much to get me to post... lol...

[Grump]

Does Wolf make brass-cased .308 ammo? I'd really like to see pics of the failed case, more so than the rifle.

I guess that even a steel case (yes, I know it's very mild steel, but even iron's surperior strength over bronze gave us the "Iron Age" and a techno-leap ahead in arms and other technology) could let go under an extremely early unlocking.

The rear-tipping bolt-lock function of the FAL action keeps the firing pin unstruck if the bolt is not locked, doesn't it? Can dwell time be shortened that much by the bolt carrier not being all the way forward?

Anxious to hear "the rest of the story."

[walking arsenal]

The stuff we sold him was steel cased FWIW.

I asked him to bring the whole thing in, he said he would. I'm going out to the shop today so maybe he'll have it in. I'll post more tonight.

[Radjxf]

Coronach beat me to it: most likely a Century or Hesse gun and this guy's probably never heard of "headspace" either. :rolleyes:

[trueblue1776]

yeah, it probably was a $350 Century deathtrap or maybe an Enterprise Arms.

[walking arsenal]

Acording to this guys rant it's valued in the thousand dollar FAL range. Doubt it's a hessy. Probably why he was so pissed, or maybe he was yelling cause his ears were still ringing. :D

[Coronach]

Well, regardless, we still need more info. What exactly happend with the malfs? Who made the rifle? How exactly did it 'splode? Is there anything left to check for little things like headspace, etc? What was the exact type of ammo (Wolf, yes...steel cased? Laquered or that new stuff?) Etc?

I know, I know, it's not your rifle and you're just relaying what you know. I'm not berating you. But right now we have the logical equivalent of "My car just blew up! I was using Mobil gas!" ;)

Mike ;)

[Wllm. Legrand]

I wouldn't be so hard on the Hesse receivers. Agreed that Century builds often look like the work of drunk monkeys and, the Hesse receivers at not as pretty or as "on spec" as Imbels or DSA, but the issue is whether the build was done to spec, more than likely. I've got one that runs like a tank (Hesse receiver), very accurate and reliable, from the word go. I've another that required some "tweeking" but it, too, is reliable and accurate.

Was it his own build? The headspace and out-of-battery questions are very good. Three "jams" (FTE) and he doesn't check it out? An out-of-battery firing could be catastrophic; and remember that an FAL has no forward-assist. I've read a bit of the aluminum upper KABOOMs, but more info is necessary here. Some pics would help tell a story. Again, it's rare that a guy will volunteer information that says, "Uh....I think I screwed up...."

I've been using Wolf in my .308s around here; works just fine. Equal to South African, IMHO, and I've shot most (Hirt, Port, Malaysian, etc.). Now if it was Indian ammo, that's another story, but the Wolf people have the ammo thing down, again, IMHO.

FWIW, I DID have a case where ammo was bad (local reloading place). He admitted that he had a problem with a batch of .357. He knew me and took care of the smithing charge on the bad squib load removal. But ammo problems from an international dealer...an isolated incident....are pretty rare.

[TooTech]

I have four FALs, one with a Dan Coonan receiver, two Imbels, and an Entreprise. If the receiver is made of steel, I would be very surprised to hear that the receiver actually failed on the gun - regardless of manufacturer. If it's an aluminum receiver (Williams) then it's a definite possibility. The steel receivers of the manufacturers vary in the quality of their finish, and sometimes they need to be tweaked a bit to run reliably, but they are all STRONG.

An out-of-battery firing would not be as surprising, especially if the cartridge was chambering with difficulty. IIRC, the firing pin on a FAL is not mechanically restrained as the bolt runs forward. Were the "jams" failures-to-feed, or failures-to-eject? Guns don't blow up on FTEs.

Did he actually pull the trigger, or did it "slam fire" when the bolt was released? Was he ever aware of the hammer following the bolt down when the action was closing? How long has he had the gun, and did he just now starting having problems versus it working correctly for an extended period with different ammo?

I'd run over to www.falfiles.com and post this. Include pictures and details of the build.

[trueblue1776]

I think the guy's at Enterprise have a Jihad on me, two f##ked guns in a row. They weren't just ugly work of drunk monkeys.

First one wouldn't cock unless you jimmied the charging handle to catch the bolt every time, no big deal, easy fix, yeah right. Finally got the charging handle to fit right, shot one round and the gun never opened again. I still have the charging handle that broke while I was trying to open the bolt.

Got the replacement and sold it to a buddy of mine and there was a little firing pin fusion/slam fire excitement in a location where we looked like the biggest *********s on the planet.

Oh and the supplied mags didn't fit. I guess no one told them that there was two patterns.

Two massively f##ked guns in a row. I hope the boys at enterprise don't quit their day jobs.

[walking arsenal]

I can't get pics of this rifle as i havent seen the guy since. Plus, We're a shop, not a range.

Again, it's rare that a guy will volunteer information that says, "Uh....I think I screwed up...."

He didn't say he screwed up, HE says the ammo we sold him screwed up his gun.

Whatever.:rolleyes:

Thats the info i got, asking for more wont make it appear, i'll post more info IF we get it.

[Jim K]

FWIW, I had a problem with a Century "FAL" with South African ammo. The brass seems a bit soft and the cases would not extract until I polished the chamber. After that, it worked fine with everything I fed it. It loves U.S. GI ball and NM ammo.

Can an FAL fire out of battery? It shouldn't, because the rear of the firing pin can't protrude from the bolt carrier unless the bolt is down and locked, and the firing pin spring is very strong. But given the way some guns have become cottage industries, with out of spec parts, badly made receivers, etc., about anything can happen. I will guarantee that if it did fire out of battery, the receiver (steel or not) would be bulged outward, the magazine would be scrap and probably the top cover would be blown off.

I doubt any gas setting could cause what was described. As to case strength, steel cases are definitely stronger than brass cases.

We need more info, and pictures, on this one.

Jim

[jsteenii]

I owned a imbel that exploded in the same manner that the fellow above described,only i was shooting indian ammo.I got the warning about the lot of ammo 3hrs.too late.Century arms replaced the rifle free of charge,but with one of their fal's.I did have the forsight to have it headspaced.was ok..but i could'nt get the shells to feed from the magazine,turns out the feed throat was cast out of spec(too narrow)after some lite shaping and some polishing cycles fine.even rapid fire....But i do have some reservations obout buying anything from century again.

[Seven High]

Wolf ammunition is very dirty. I would guess that the chamber became dirty and the casing stuck in it. Wolf can be used if you don't mind cleaning the weapon every 100 rounds.

[Bwana John]

I dont shoot steel cased ammo in my firearms designed for brass cases.

AK's, sure... but not my FAL, AR, or M-1A.

[trueblue1776]

I dont shoot steel cased ammo in my firearms designed for brass cases.

AK's, sure... but not my FAL, AR, or M-1A.

absolutely, I won't risk a $1200 gun with low buck ammo to save a couple pennies a round

[MechAg94]

I tend to agree in that surplus brass ammo is available at decent prices at least on .308.

[Wllm. Legrand]

I can't get pics of this rifle as i havent seen the guy since. Plus, We're a shop, not a range.



He didn't say he screwed up, HE says the ammo we sold him screwed up his gun.

Whatever.:rolleyes:


That was the point....to illustrate the disparity between what people (especially gun people who don't even know what they do NOT know) say and what ends up being the truth...

Whatever.... :rolleyes:

[walking arsenal]

The TRUTH!?!?!













YOU CAN"T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!!!!!!!:D

[Molon Labe]

My metric FAL also blew up in my face last year when I was shooting it in my backyard.

I assure you it was not a pleasant experience.

A round would not chamber correctly, so I racked the charging handle while peering into the chamber. Boom! :eek: I dropped the rifle and stood there in shellshock. I couldn't see very well; though my spectacles were still intact, the lenses looked as if they had been sandblasted. My buddy came running over and asked, "What happened?" He then looked at my face and said, "Holy sh*t, your face is bleeding!" I just stood there and remained silent. Like I said, I was in shock. I was just trying to determine if I was still alive and in one piece.

The magazine exploded and .308 rounds (from the magazine) were littered all over the lawn. The receiver was bent. We found the dust cover a couple hours later; it was about 40 feet away in the tall grass area.

A postmortem inspection of the rifle revealed a clean break in firing pin, which I believe happened before the explosion. (In other words, I believe the broken firing pin was the root cause of the incident.) My best theory is that the "pointy end" of the firing pin was wedged all the way forward in the bolt, and the tip was fully protruding through the hole in the bolt. When the bolt was going forward, the pin was making contact with the primer on the cartridge. :eek: The pin ignited the round before the round was in battery as the bolt & carrier were traveling forward.

But... it could have been a lot worse. As mentioned above, the dust cover flew 40 feet away. What if it had launched toward my face? Or what if I had not been wearing my spectacles? Or what if a big chunk of brass launched toward my face? Or what if rounds in the magazine were ignited via the explosion?

After this incident, I can say with utmost confidence that only an absolute fool would shoot a gun without eye protection.

[Jim K]

Hi, Molon Labe,

Read my post (entered before yours) on what will happen if an FAL fires out of battery. I get a bit amused when someone describes a doubling as "firing out of battery." I am glad you were not hurt seriously.

BTW, the FAL has a two piece firing pin, so a broken one would be three pieces.

Jim

[Pepe Domingo]

I know many Wolf defenders have or will reply that it could not possibly be an ammo problem because they have shot thousands of rounds of the stuff without problem. However, I submit that it could easily be a bad round that caused this KB. Without more detail, it is impossible to judge.

There is a reason that WOLF is the cheapest ammunition on the market. As a former WOLF lover who suffered a severe KB with an overloaded round, I automatically suspect the ammunition. Wolf (well, the importer) gave me my money back and replaced my pistol.

My $.02, which almost buys a round of Wolf.

[chopinbloc]

i bet that guy would be REALLY pissed off if someone told him that 7.62x39 isn't the same as 7.62x51:evil:

[AZ Jeff]

BTW, the FAL has a two piece firing pin, so a broken one would be three pieces.

Jim
Actually, metric FALs' (and I "think" inch-pattern FAL's as well) have a one piece firing pin. It's the SAFN (FN 49) that used the multi-piece firing pin.

[Bwana John]

A round would not chamber correctly, so I racked the charging handle while peering into the chamber. Boom! :eek:

A postmortem inspection of the rifle revealed a clean break in firing pin, which I believe happened before the explosion.

I feel compelled to tell my own incredable story about a similar incident I had with my FAL.

I have a FAL with a Imbel bolt with the stock metric 1 piece firing pin.

I did the same thing, a round wouldnt chamber on the line,(after a COUPLE of trys!).

I brought the rifle back to the truck, and racked the charging handle again with the rifle pointed into the back of the truck that has a shell where the rest of the guns were laying. As I racked it I heard a small "pop" and a wisp of smoke come from the chamber area.:confused:

A inspection of the chamber revieled a fully chambered round, missing a primer.:eek: My buddy leans into the back of the truck and picks out a primer.

The one peice firing pin broke and wedged the tip into the bolt face much past the point it would normaly protrude.
As I closed the bolt on the allready chambered live round it set the primer off, but not the powder:what:

The ammo was 20 year old Port(I think), berdan primed.

I have it with the broken pin some where and will try to post a picture when I find it

I would recomend that everybody that has the metric 1-piece firing pin upgrade to either the Issy 2-piece metric fireing pin or go to the Inch bolt which as a "improved" version overall, has a 2-piece firing pin.

[Bwana John]

Hi, Molon Labe,

BTW, the FAL has a two piece firing pin, so a broken one would be three pieces.

Jim

Jim,
I have a couple of metric 1 peice firing pins that came out of Imbel bolts, I will try to post them also when I find that round.
John

[444]

"However, I submit that it could easily be a bad round that caused this KB. Without more detail, it is impossible to judge."

I am NOT saying it wasn't the ammo. But, if you read my original post, you will see that I provided my opinon of the very thing you mention. In my experience as a handloader, using common powders, I don't think this situation is likely. With a handgun cartridge, it is often pretty easy to put FAR more powder into the case than your intended load (easy to do in theory: it is possible to do: there is plenty of room to do it: in practice this is obviously something you are constantly on guard against). You are often using a very fast burning PISTOL powder which often occupies very little of the case. For example, a .38 Special case could easily be double charged with powder. I have loaded .38 Specials with powders like Bullseye where you could put many times the correct charge in the case. But, this is normally not the case with rifle cartridges. With rifle cartridges, you are normally using a much slower buring powder. In most normal loads, the powder fills the case. It is common to have a compressed load where you have to actually use the bullet to compress the powder or use a powder drop tube to get more powder inside the case in order to get the desired performance from the load. I have never loaded a centerfire rifle cartridge where there was room to add enough powder to cause a big problem like blowing up a gun. There just isn't enough room in the case. If you double charged a rifle cartridge while using a normal powder and a normal load, 98% or more of the powder would simply spill over the sides like you were trying to add 24 ounces of beer to a 12 ounce glass.
As I said in my first post: I am fully aware that it is possible to use a fast burning powder in a rifle case to cause a huge over pressure load, but logic would seem to tell you that this wouldn't somehow happen to just one cartridge.

[Jim K]

If, as I believe, the rifle fired out of battery, the powder charge or type of powder would make very little difference.

BTW, I don't know about IMBEL bolts, but IIRC the original drawings for the FAL show a two piece firing pin and the inch models certainly have that. I have no info on why a 2 piece was used or what the effect is in going to one piece, or if the firing pin was even at fault unless it did break and wedge in the forward position, as some have speculated.

Jim

[Draven32]

Somebody collet pull the bullet on a Wolf .308 round and see how much room there is in the casing...

[The_Antibubba]

There was definitely a FALup somewhere. :D

[Sunray]

Failures to extract, eh? I'd bet the guy had the gas system closed. Set for launching grenades.

[Bwana John]

BTW, I don't know about IMBEL bolts, but IIRC the original drawings for the FAL show a two piece firing pin and the inch models certainly have that.
Jim
Jim,
I think you will find orginal Belgium rifles to have the one piece pin also. The Issy metric bolt was changed to two piece and will retrofit one piece metric models, and is available thru DSA. The Inch version is two piece, but will not fit into metric bolts.
The firing pin was changed to 2-piece because of problems with the one piece one breaking.
John

[Bwana John]

http://img301.imageshack.us/img301/1796/firingpins7ec.th.jpg (http://img301.imageshack.us/my.php?image=firingpins7ec.jpg)
A=Broken one piece metric
B=One piece metric
C=2-piece Issy metric
D=2-piece Inch
E=Case full of powder with primer blown off
F=Primer fished out of back of truck

[walking arsenal]

Update of sorts.

We had another .308 come in this week. This time it was a saiga .308 rifle and i got a chance to look it over.

If what happend to the Saiga happened to the FAL, i'm blaming the ammo.

This one was a blown case head.

Rifle fired and the case head blew clean off and left the rest of the case stuck in the chamber.

Same lot of wolf ammo.

The saiga looks like the Fal guy explained if that makes sense.

Action looked ok though.

Thoughts?

[trueblue1776]

I swear the NEXT guy that I have to explain why steel cased ammo sucks....

Although I do like silver bear ammo, so I guess I'm one of those hypo-crite things.

[ziadel]

FWIW, I had a problem with a Century "FAL" with South African ammo. The brass seems a bit soft and the cases would not extract until I polished the chamber. After that, it worked fine with everything I fed it. It loves U.S. GI ball and NM ammo.


I dont think SA ammo is soft, works fine in my CETME, and that things notoriously tough on brass....

[MechAg94]

I just bought a box of .308 Wolf to try. I think I will sit on it until I hear more.

I haven't heard these stories regarding other calibers. I use Wolf in .223 and 7.62X39 and have never had a problem. Those rilfes are a little cheaper than my M1A though.

[MechAg94]

By the way, has anyone heard of trouble in rifles other than FAL variants?

[trueblue1776]

If I buy another I'll shell out the dough and get an FN or DSA, or I'll build an Imbel. I'm not messing around with the homemade sell 'em on the internet ones anymore, too many bombs out there for me.

[JShirley]

"Update of sorts.

We had another .308 come in this week. This time it was a saiga .308 rifle and i got a chance to look it over"

[nyresq]

Does Wolf make brass-cased .308 ammo?


Yes they do, but only their "Premium" line is brassed cased. costs a lot more then the steel cased stuff and is price wise comparable to other factory loads.