"I don't carry a gun because if I did, criminal could use it to kill me"


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AirPower
January 18, 2006, 02:44 AM
This is the stupidest thing I've heard all year. Yeah the year's just started but still. This is from a coworker, and we were talking about carrying laws. We started talking about his wife's security. I said he might consider getting her a gun, but then get this, he said, "mostly she only has to worry about robbers and rapists, but if she had a gun on her, they may use it to kill her, instead of just robbing her or raping her." I really wasn't in the mood to argue so I let it drop. Needless to say, he doesn't see any value in having a gun. :rolleyes:

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Justin
January 18, 2006, 02:51 AM
Saying something like that is very indicative of mindset. The sort of person who says it likely would be victimized with their own gun.

taliv
January 18, 2006, 02:53 AM
that logic isn't necessarily stupid.

imho, if you don't practice at least semi-regularly (and if your spouse isn't really into guns, she won't) that 'feeling' you have of confidence just because you've got a gun is little more than a 'feeling'.

i have tons of friends who carry guns that they've never even fired. (idiots) if they're attacked, i'd say the odds are that their butt-kicking will begin well before they can get their gun out of whatever briefcase or hideyhole its in, and they'll probably try to shoot the gun before disengaging the safety or chambering a round or something equally stupid. the attacker will take the gun and may or may not shoot them with it.

Husker1911
January 18, 2006, 02:55 AM
The world needs its sheep, too.

Taurus 66
January 18, 2006, 03:02 AM
"I don't carry a gun because if I did, criminal could use it to kill me"

Uhmmmmm .....

CORDITE
January 18, 2006, 03:08 AM
Uhmmmmm .....
Dont you have anything better to add to the thread than ^^^^^ ?

CrazyIrishman
January 18, 2006, 03:15 AM
Did I hear someone mention DARWIN?


I guess if his wife was killed by the assailants gun (or other weapon) then it would be different, right?

Poor little sheep-le......(baaah,BAAAH)..can't teach 'em nuttin' !

tlend
January 18, 2006, 03:19 AM
Its probably good for all of society that not everyone carries a gun. As our "thread leader" has made painfully obvious, not everyone is suited to the task. Leave the gun handling to the "sheepdogs" who will keep watch over the sheep.

grimjaw
January 18, 2006, 03:32 AM
Let's role play. I'm a Bad Guy.

"I don't attack people who carry guns, because they might shoot me."

"I don't want to attempt to wrestle a gun out of the hands of someone pointing it at me, because it might go off."

Bad Guys who don't realize the things above fall into the Darwin category.

Let's say Bad Guy has some time and cash on his hands, and he hasn't been caught yet so no criminal record. He attends self defense training. He even gets some combat training. He buys a gun. He plans a job to steal your valuables. One of the things he'll likely learn in self defense training is to AVOID A FIGHT. It's the smart thing to do. But if he does happen to encounter you, who happen to be unarmed, he's going to be the aggressor. If you recognized that, with a gun pointed at you, would you be Chuck Norris enough to take his gun from him? He hasn't let you get within 21' of him, and he's practiced often with his carry piece. Feel like playing the odds?

It really isn't enough to 'own a gun' if you intend to use it for self defense. Might even be better off to save the money and get self defense training first.

jmm

SomeKid
January 18, 2006, 03:42 AM
"I don't carry a gun because if I did, a criminal could use it to kill me"

Having lost most of my patience with these...people...my response is generally along these lines:

"Only if you are so stupid, incompetant, and poorly trained you let him."

These 'people' are lost causes, play with them a little.

pax
January 18, 2006, 03:49 AM
He's absolutely right, you know. Smart of him to recognize it.

A gun is nothing but a tool. Without the will to use the tool, it is worse than worthless.

pax

A very large percentage of people who carry a concealed handgun do not carry it as a weapon. They carry it as a good luck charm. They think of it as a magic talisman that wards off evil, or as a rabbit's foot. -- Tom Givens

Rem700SD
January 18, 2006, 04:16 AM
If his wife is wearing underwear and/or pantyhose, she's carrying something her rapist can use to kill her. Even if her attacker got her gun away from her, I still don't think it would be used as anything more than a bludgeon. Guns are loud and impersonal, and I think used in only a small percentage of post-rape murders, iirc.

Otherguy Overby
January 18, 2006, 04:20 AM
This is the stupidest thing I've heard all year. Yeah the year's just started but still. This is from a coworker, and we were talking about carrying laws.


Next time this "gentleman" confronts you just remember there's a reason they are called cow-orkers.

Nematocyst
January 18, 2006, 06:01 AM
A gun is nothing but a tool. Good call, Pax.

I use this argument often when ...um, discussing the issue with folks (like my clients who learn I'm a gun owner) who object to guns.

You know, those who are afraid of them because they can kill people.

I carefully and rationally point out: a gun is only a tool.

Like hammers & cars, both of which are tools and can kill people, guns are tools.

Without proper training & understanding, any tool can kill.

Will humanity ever learn that lesson?

<Rhetorical question>

Nem

Herself
January 18, 2006, 08:48 AM
Don't hold your breath, Nem. I sometimes wonder if our dawn-of-mankind ancestors didn't encounter similar arguments over spears or fire.

Contemporary Man is quite often proud of his incompetence in many areas of tool use -- and contemptuous of those who can and do use use tools. When things get tough, they're also the ones you find huddling wherever they have been told to, cold, wet and hungry. The aristocracy of incompetence only lasts as long as the competent have time or willingness to tolerate it. Guns? Such people cannot even operate a basin wrench, let alone a gun!

Me, well, my manicure is often way less the perfect but I can fend for myself. There are better way to go through life than having to constantly be looking for a knight to ride in and put everything right.

--Herself

CalamityJane
January 18, 2006, 09:09 AM
He's absolutely right, you know. Smart of him to recognize it.

A gun is nothing but a tool. Without the will to use the tool, it is worse than worthless.

pax

A very large percentage of people who carry a concealed handgun do not carry it as a weapon. They carry it as a good luck charm. They think of it as a magic talisman that wards off evil, or as a rabbit's foot. -- Tom Givens

I agree with you completely on this. One has to get out of--over--the mindset of "I just don't think I could handle killing someone", and reach the point where one is absolutely certain that their own life, or someone they love, is more important than dealing with the aftermath of shooting someone intent on taking that life. As with any tool, if you want to be able to use it correctly and for its intended purpose, you have to practice. A lot. And if someone isn't going to do this, then they really shouldn't have, or carry, this tool. But it begins and ends, I think, with mindset.

gremlin_bros
January 18, 2006, 09:19 AM
This is the stupidest thing I've heard all year. Yeah the year's just started but still. This is from a coworker, and we were talking about carrying laws. We started talking about his wife's security. I said he might consider getting her a gun, but then get this, he said, "mostly she only has to worry about robbers and rapists, but if she had a gun on her, they may use it to kill her, instead of just robbing her or raping her." I really wasn't in the mood to argue so I let it drop. Needless to say, he doesn't see any value in having a gun. :rolleyes:
yup just wait till she is raped then ask this question i bet you get a diffrent answer but of course by then it's to late.

bogie
January 18, 2006, 09:26 AM
My response: "No problem. If a guy walks up to you with a knife or a baseball bat, and announces that he's going to kill you with it, just take it away from him."

Janitor
January 18, 2006, 09:31 AM
Dont you have anything better to add to the thread than ^^^^^ ?
Wow. Post #8 on THR and you're already dissing somebody for not adding something to the thread. Just as your comment didn't. But thanks for sharing your thoughts.

---

pax is right (yea - as usual). A gun is a tool meant to be used for specific jobs. If you don't know how to use your tool, and you don't have the mindset that it is your tool and there is absolutely an appropriate time to use it, it will do you no good.

Go over to your co-workers house some time. Take him into his kitchen and show him everything that a person strong enough to overcome his wife and rape her could kill her with. Should take you about 30 seconds to find 5 or 6 ways to easily kill somebody who is willing to be raped in the name of peace. For a practile demo - ask him if he want's to play some ersatz force on force where his wife tries to take that beautiful 11" Wustoff French Chefs knife away from you and turn the tables.

hillbilly
January 18, 2006, 09:39 AM
Cordite, two things.

First, Taurus66's reaction of "ummmmmmmmmmm" is quite a good comment.


Sometimes, the only proper reaction to monumental stupidity is either silence, or some sort of nonverbal sound such as "ummmmmm."

Second, regarding your slap at Taurus66's post.

Looking at how many posts Taurus66 has on the bulletin board, and how many posts CORDITE has on this bulletin board, all I can say about your slap at Taurus66 is "ummmmmmmmmmmm."

hillbilly

Browns Fan
January 18, 2006, 09:44 AM
Quote:
"Dont you have anything better to add to the thread than ^^^^^ ?"

It sure is a LOT more intelligible than some people who just put a period in their reply. What the heck is that all about?:scrutiny:

The Real Hawkeye
January 18, 2006, 09:57 AM
This is the stupidest thing I've heard all year. Yeah the year's just started but still. This is from a coworker, and we were talking about carrying laws. We started talking about his wife's security. I said he might consider getting her a gun, but then get this, he said, "mostly she only has to worry about robbers and rapists, but if she had a gun on her, they may use it to kill her, instead of just robbing her or raping her." I really wasn't in the mood to argue so I let it drop. Needless to say, he doesn't see any value in having a gun. :rolleyes:Well, there really are some people for whom that statement is correct. Some people simply do not have it in them to shoot someone, and for them it is better that they be unarmed. As Clint Eastwood said as Inspector Callahan in Magnum Force, "A man's got to know his limiitations."

PATH
January 18, 2006, 10:05 AM
Sigh! I guess if you really don't want to protect yourself from those who may want to kill you then you really neither need nor want a gun! :D

The Real Hawkeye
January 18, 2006, 10:05 AM
My response: "No problem. If a guy walks up to you with a knife or a baseball bat, and announces that he's going to kill you with it, just take it away from him."That's a great response. I will have to remember that.

jondar
January 18, 2006, 10:10 AM
Quote: Wow! Post #8 and you're already dissing somebody".

What is the required number of posts you must have on THR to "diss" somebody. Does the number of posts you have indicate the knowlege you have on the subject you are commenting on? Just asking for my own information. Thanks.

Janitor
January 18, 2006, 10:22 AM
Quote: Wow! Post #8 and you're already dissing somebody".

What is the required number of posts you must have on THR to "diss" somebody. Does the number of posts you have indicate the knowlege you have on the subject you are commenting on? Just asking for my own information. Thanks.
27.

jtward01
January 18, 2006, 10:24 AM
How would I really react if faced with a shoot/no shoot situation? I don't know. I'd like to think that I will access the gun quickly and cleanly, aim carefully and place my shots well. Would I? Who knows? I don't think any of us really know until we're actually faced with the situation.

Maybe it's because I've seen so much death in my lifetime, and started dealing with it when I was only a teenager, but I don't think I would hesitate to shoot someone who was attacking either me or someone else, even if the victim was a complete stranger. The way I see it, the predator made the choice to risk his life when he decided to launch his attack. If I have to use deadly force to stop that attack then too bad for him.

The Real Hawkeye
January 18, 2006, 10:30 AM
How would I really react if faced with a shoot/no shoot situation? I don't know. I'd like to think that I will access the gun quickly and cleanly, aim carefully and place my shots well. Would I? Who knows? I don't think any of us really know until we're actually faced with the situation.

Maybe it's because I've seen so much death in my lifetime, and started dealing with it when I was only a teenager, but I don't think I would hesitate to shoot someone who was attacking either me or someone else, even if the victim was a complete stranger. The way I see it, the predator made the choice to risk his life when he decided to launch his attack. If I have to use deadly force to stop that attack then too bad for him.You have the correct attitude, in my opinion. People not willing to shoot an attacker because of some false sense of scruples have some kind of mental disorder, as I see it.

JohnMc
January 18, 2006, 10:30 AM
He's absolutely right, you know. Smart of him to recognize it.

A gun is nothing but a tool. Without the will to use the tool, it is worse than worthless.

+1 on that.

I remember reading a blurb by G. Gordon Liddy, about when his class at FBI training were issued their revolvers (it was about 50 years ago). The instructor asked for anybody who wanted the front sights filed off to raise their hands. When somebody asked why they would want that, the instructor said something like, "you'll want this because if you ever draw on somebody and you aren't prepared to kill them, it'll hurt less when they take it from you and shove it up your A**!"
If somebody knows they fit into that category, pepper spray is the ticket...

USMCRotrHed
January 18, 2006, 11:22 AM
I've always thought that before you make the decision to carry a handgun, you should ask yourself a question. Can you kill someone who is trying to harm you? If your answer to this question is no, then your thought process should stop right there as far as carrying goes. It seems to me that this lady is not sure enough about her actions under pressure to bring herself to kill an attacker, for what ever reasons she has. She answered THE question, and her answer was no. It's better for someone who won't or can't kill another, to not carry. I can't fault her with her decision.

Skirmisher
January 18, 2006, 11:37 AM
Your coworker sounds very cavalier about his wife having to endure a mugging or rape. I wonder if he told her to just lay back and enjoy it.:cuss:

Mizzle187
January 18, 2006, 12:01 PM
Yeah I think the same way! I really want to deal with my wife getting raped!:banghead: he must be looking for a new wife becuase on top of the physical and mental scars she will carry with her the rest of her life he can say goodbye to the Ol' fuzzy taco! Not trying to be funny either! I think you are right saying that is the stupidest thing yoube heard all year because its the stupidest thing Ive read all year!

carlrodd
January 18, 2006, 12:05 PM
Your coworker sounds very cavalier about his wife having to endure a mugging or rape. I wonder if he told her to just lay back and enjoy it.:cuss:

+1 great observation. THAT is a very common mindset these days.....chicken-hearted people that would sooner see a loved one in harm's way than have to make a stand themselves. imagine what these people's kids would be like. i know you were joking, but i would bet some money that he WOULD tell his wife to just be still and let the rapist do what he was going to do.

Waitone
January 18, 2006, 12:10 PM
Lemme guess. Your coworker has not experienced violence of any type and does not know anyone who has directly experienced violence. Lemme futher guess you coworker's only exposure to violence is TV or movies or video games.

Old Dog
January 18, 2006, 12:41 PM
I know a couple like this. Ironically, they drive a Volvo (because "It's the safest car made") and wouldn't dream of cruising half a block without seat belts on; the man wears a helmet while skiing the green runs and the bunny hill. Every cabinet in their house has child-safety latches, every electrical outlet has the little plastic covers on 'em ...The guy is the sort of person whose
only exposure to violence is TV or movies or video games.
yet even the stylized violence on television shows such as Walker, Texas Ranger or The A-Team (where bullets didn't kill people and few folks were ever seriously hurt) made him uncomfortable. He wouldn't let his daughter play in our house until I showed him my gunsafe; he actually shuddered when I asked him if he wanted to see any handguns ... Not that this is germane to the discussion ... but yeah, he still hasn't taken the Kerry-Edwards decals off his cars.

And yes, those of this mindset are typically those upon whom violent crime has never visited ...

CAPTAIN MIKE
January 18, 2006, 12:47 PM
My wife undertook CCW training but then hesitated to submit her application due to this same kind of logic. She was not sure she would have the mental strength to actually USE the firearm against another human being, and that being petite, etc. the Bad Guy might overpower her and turn her firearm against her.

Since that visual didn't appeal to her, she used it as a roadblock to obtaining her CCW. We had a 'robust discussion' about it, and the only way I prevailed upon her was appealing to her protective nature as a Mom. That seemed to do the trick, and everything was resolved.

Pilot
January 18, 2006, 12:53 PM
My wife undertook CCW training but then hesitated to submit her application due to this same kind of logic. She was not sure she would have the mental strength to actually USE the firearm against another human being, and that being petite, etc. the Bad Guy might overpower her and turn her firearm against her.



My wife has taken two handgun courses with me. She is a good shot, but does not trust herself to be able to shoot someone in a self defense situation. She isn't so much concerned the gun will be used against her. I'll keep working on her, but if she's not comfortable, that is her choice. I can't nor would I ever "force" her to carry. Not that I can force her to do anything. :)

I think the co-worker of the original poster's reasoning is just an excuse. He probably just doensn't like guns or doesn't feel threatened in every day society or both.

Justin
January 18, 2006, 12:57 PM
The inter-member sniping stops now or this thread gets locked.

Thanks.

Tom Servo
January 18, 2006, 01:33 PM
"mostly she only has to worry about robbers and rapists, but if she had a gun on her, they may use it to kill her
Just a question: has anybody ever read of this actually happening?. I've heard of people being shot with guns that were taken from other areas of the house during burglaries, but I've never heard of anyone on the street having their sidearm taken from and used on them. Police officers, yes it happens, but they carry openly and are visible targets. Civilians, no.

Just another scare-tactic from the left.

Dain Bramage
January 18, 2006, 01:47 PM
If his wife is wearing underwear and/or pantyhose, she's carrying something her rapist can use to kill her.

+1

Gary Ridgway, the infamous Green River Killer in Washington state, killed around forty women. As far as I know, he never used a firearm, prefering strangulation, with his hands or articles of the woman's clothing.

Stay safe. Stay aware. Protect your loved ones.

Old Dog
January 18, 2006, 01:48 PM
That's a good question, Erik. I think I recall reading years back about a situation where a woman had her pistol or revolver taken away from her and an attempt to use it on her was made by a home intruder (it could have been in American Rifleman "Armed Citizen" column or American Handgunner - Ayoob story, perhaps? - after she'd shot the bad guy) ...

I definitely remember at least a couple instances where victims were able to wrest away handguns from armed assailants, though. Time for some research.

Mute
January 18, 2006, 02:00 PM
I see. So the bad guy taking her gun and killing her is bad, but him killing her with his own gun is ok. :rolleyes: Unfortunately stupidity is incurable.

walking arsenal
January 18, 2006, 02:00 PM
The inter-member sniping stops now or this thread gets locked.


But he started it! :p

MechAg94
January 18, 2006, 02:17 PM
Its probably good for all of society that not everyone carries a gun. As our "thread leader" has made painfully obvious, not everyone is suited to the task. Leave the gun handling to the "sheepdogs" who will keep watch over the sheep.
This is fine as long as the government does not determine who will be sheep and who will be sheepdogs. Every individual has to decide that for themselves. :)

I do agree with Pax. My original CHL instructor made sure to tell everyone that if you are not prepared to kill someone, don't carry a gun. I believe they teach you not to even pull it out unless you are prepared to shoot if you do carry. A gun is not a credible threat unless the holder is willing to use it.

CrazyIrishman
January 18, 2006, 03:45 PM
About 32 years ago I was robbed at gunpoint in Baltimore City. I was with a friend heading towards his apartment building when out of the blue two guys w/ masks sprang from out of nowhere or so it seemed. (we were 16 at the time)

One guy had a shotgun and the other had a rifle. Don't know what the gauge or caliber was but I can tell you that the shotgun looked "HUGE" with the business end in your face!!

They took our wallets, watches, money (change too)and my buddy's jacket. His looked new,mine wasn't. Then we were made to lie down on the ground . At this time I thought it was gonna be lights out but then both of 'em vanished like the wind.

The police never did catch them or anyone else with their MO.

What did I learn from this incident?

1) Be very aware of whats happening around you. Pay special attention to anything unusual .

2) Be prepared to defend yourself .

3) Realize that in many cases there isn't time to "think things over" before you act.

I doubt that this list is complete. Modify it as you see fit.

A few years ago I worked for a retired LEO managing a store for him. We were located in the city and I was allowed to carry while in the store. Although I never attended a CCW class or self defense class he did teach me to some extent. While I do not think it replaces a good school I did learn many things, and I went to the range when my schedule would allow. Do I consider myself an expert? No,not by a longshot. I value life just as much as any sane person should, however, I will NEVER AGAIN be a VICTIM! After all these years I still remember staring at two muzzles in minute detail to this day! Would I shoot in self defense? YES!

MeanStreaker
January 18, 2006, 04:11 PM
Someone brought up this "argument" to me as well. I countered by conceding the fact that there's a chance someone could take my handgun from me and kill me with it... but the cause of death would be from bludgeoning as it would mean all 15 shots from my XD missed the advancing criminal. I regularly go to the range to make sure the chances of this are very remote.

Missouri Mule
January 18, 2006, 04:13 PM
Future crime statistic.......

44Brent
January 18, 2006, 04:15 PM
"Since guns can be easily taken away from people who carry them, we should give all registered sex offenders guns so that their intended victims can take the gun from the sex offender, and use it to kill the sex offender".

Manedwolf
January 18, 2006, 04:36 PM
that logic isn't necessarily stupid.

imho, if you don't practice at least semi-regularly (and if your spouse isn't really into guns, she won't) that 'feeling' you have of confidence just because you've got a gun is little more than a 'feeling'.

i have tons of friends who carry guns that they've never even fired. (idiots) if they're attacked, i'd say the odds are that their butt-kicking will begin well before they can get their gun out of whatever briefcase or hideyhole its in, and they'll probably try to shoot the gun before disengaging the safety or chambering a round or something equally stupid. the attacker will take the gun and may or may not shoot them with it.

The best summary sentiment I've heard regarding that is that simply carrying a gun does not make you properly armed any more than carrying a guitar around makes you a musician.

Manedwolf
January 18, 2006, 04:42 PM
You have the correct attitude, in my opinion. People not willing to shoot an attacker because of some false sense of scruples have some kind of mental disorder, as I see it.

What's most unfortunate, to me, is that due to the skewed legal system, the split-second question I have to wonder if more CCWs ask now is "If I take this shot, am I going to lose my family/kids/home, be sued in civil court by the "Oh, he was a GOOD boy" relatives, be smeared by the anti-gun news media or railroaded by local judges?"

That's sad. In some areas especially, if the opportunity is there to prevent the loss of an innocent person's life by the use of a concealed weapon, it will be "save a life...and lose yours kids' college fund." ...to legal fees.

Manedwolf
January 18, 2006, 04:45 PM
About 32 years ago I was robbed at gunpoint in Baltimore City. I was with a friend heading towards his apartment building when out of the blue two guys w/ masks sprang from out of nowhere or so it seemed. (we were 16 at the time)

One guy had a shotgun and the other had a rifle. Don't know what the gauge or caliber was but I can tell you that the shotgun looked "HUGE" with the business end in your face!!

They took our wallets, watches, money (change too)and my buddy's jacket. His looked new,mine wasn't. Then we were made to lie down on the ground . At this time I thought it was gonna be lights out but then both of 'em vanished like the wind.

The police never did catch them or anyone else with their MO.

What did I learn from this incident?

1) Be very aware of whats happening around you. Pay special attention to anything unusual .

2) Be prepared to defend yourself .

3) Realize that in many cases there isn't time to "think things over" before you act.

I doubt that this list is complete. Modify it as you see fit.

A few years ago I worked for a retired LEO managing a store for him. We were located in the city and I was allowed to carry while in the store. Although I never attended a CCW class or self defense class he did teach me to some extent. While I do not think it replaces a good school I did learn many things, and I went to the range when my schedule would allow. Do I consider myself an expert? No,not by a longshot. I value life just as much as any sane person should, however, I will NEVER AGAIN be a VICTIM! After all these years I still remember staring at two muzzles in minute detail to this day! Would I shoot in self defense? YES!

The difference now, it seems, is that it's far more likely that even compliance with the attacker will get you killed. That they get a power trip out of seeing their victims' fear, and then killing them. That, and they don't want to be IDed.

Anyone who expects that if they hand over the wallet their life will be always be spared is a statistic waiting to happen.

Zundfolge
January 18, 2006, 04:58 PM
How often do you think a bunch of criminals sit around saying "Ya know Bob, I wouldn't use that gun there to rob people with ... they'll just take it away from you and kill you with it."?


Somehow the antis have convinced us that guns are too complex for the average person to use safely but the average criminal has some sort of superpowers that make them invincible with a gun. :rolleyes:

The Real Hawkeye
January 18, 2006, 05:06 PM
What's most unfortunate, to me, is that due to the skewed legal system, the split-second question I have to wonder if more CCWs ask now is "If I take this shot, am I going to lose my family/kids/home, be sued in civil court by the "Oh, he was a GOOD boy" relatives, be smeared by the anti-gun news media or railroaded by local judges?"

That's sad. In some areas especially, if the opportunity is there to prevent the loss of an innocent person's life by the use of a concealed weapon, it will be "save a life...and lose yours kids' college fund." ...to legal fees.That occurs to me as well. You'd better just decide before it gets to that, however, how you will respond, and don't second guess or you could end up pushing up daisies instead of worrying about a law suit. Which is worse?

wheelgunslinger
January 18, 2006, 05:07 PM
My S/O likes the idea of having a gun to ward off trouble, but couldn't, by her own admission, kill someone. So, she doesn't carry.

Recently, at her job, she had a couple of males give her some trouble. They're from another country that doesn't think women are equal, and don't care to be subordinates to her. Given that, and the fact that she's an extremely attractive woman, they felt it was ok to harass her by touching her inappropriately on the job. They also disregarded direct orders from her and were generally jerks by grouping together to undermine her authority. Sort of a mass "we'll hold our breath til we get our way." thing.
The situation culminated in Sexual Harassment charges being filed, and 2 of them being sent back to their homeland. One guy who is left is still really ticked off at her.

The whole time this happened, I just kept asking "what are you going to do about this?" since I don't want a partner who is completely helpless and always asking to be bailed out. She didn't tell me all of it (the inappropriate touching part...) since she knew I'd make a necklace from the teeth I knocked out.
So, I sat back and waited. One night she came in and said "they're all really mad at me, and I'm scared just to walk to my car. What if they run me off the road. What if they... what if? what if?"
To which I relplied: "If you had a concealed handgun, I'd fell better. But, if you aren't willing to shoot, then you don't need one. " and she said, "what if they try to hurt me?"
Ladies and Gents, sexual assault isn't about some guy having fun. Rape is about power. And men who crave power over certain women very often turn into rapists. In fact, most rape victims know their rapists.
So, you can see I was very worried. One of these carribbean gents could feel emasculated by my partner simply asking him to clean a counter and want to get back at her.
In the midst of all this, I attended a party her coworkers threw at a local bar. I wasn't packing, but I'm no 99 pounder either. So, I went around meeting people and shaking hands. Each time I came to one of those guys, I made sure to hurt them with each handshake and look them in the eyes until they looked away.
But, that's all I could do, short of start a fight that could get my Carry permit yanked and me beat down and blindsided by 2 or 3 sado-bouncers. After that it was all up to her. In fact, it always has been up to her to see to her own safety, despite my inner brass-knuckled boyscout.
Now, she's changing her mind about killing in defense of self.
I keep telling her that security is an illusion, and she's starting to believe it now that she's had some real world experience.
So, to harken back to the thread beginning, you don't have to be brutalized to change your mind. The idea of what could REALLY happen can be enough, sometimes.

pax
January 18, 2006, 05:24 PM
wheelgunslinger ~

Excellent post.

My best to your lady. The road to determined self-defense is a very hard road for some folks to walk.

pax

losangeles
January 18, 2006, 05:27 PM
So, to harken back to the thread beginning, you don't have to be brutalized to change your mind. The idea of what could REALLY happen can be enough, sometimes.

Sorry to hear about your wife's situation. If she's hesitant to get a CCW, what about OC pepper spray. She might feel comfortable with that. And just like any weapon, it should be practiced periodically. I find people have an easier time with pepper spray even if they're resistant to guns.

Koz
January 18, 2006, 06:01 PM
Just say "Wow, you must really think yourself a complete moron if you're going let someone shoot you with your own gun"

MD_Willington
January 18, 2006, 06:20 PM
My wife stopped saying that after I told her that it is terribly difficult to grab a gun when there are several holes in your hand.

I showed her how hard it was to grab something after I accidentally drilled a 1/4 inch hole into the palm of my hand. (don't ask it was a surreal moment :neener: )

I told her to imagine what it would be like to try to grab anything with several 9mm or bigger holes in anyones hand.

I also said if it got to the point where someone was that close and intended on killing her that the best bet would be to empty the entire magazine through that persons hand into the trunk of their body...

Just makes sense to me.

MD

CrazyIrishman
January 18, 2006, 07:19 PM
Wheelgunslinger,

I can understand a little bit of what you're going through. When I was married my wife questioned the need for guns in general and handguns in particular. I tried to explain that some people just don't respect life and will maim and kill without feeling the least bit guilt or remorse.

Within five years we divorced and now she is remarried. She never learned the realities of life. Now she is remarried and both her and hubby think that all is well in the world AND everything is just peachy!!

Fortunately my son didn't believe this malarkey! He's a fine shot with rifle or pistol, hunts frequently, and understands having to defend himself at times. In about a month he will be applying for a CCW permit in NC.

I hope that your S/O continues to improve regarding being able to defend herself. She might even go for CCW classes!

BEST OF LUCK!

Standing Wolf
January 18, 2006, 08:07 PM
I carry a gun whenever I leave the house. Nobody is going to harm me with it.

CAPTAIN MIKE
January 19, 2006, 12:10 AM
Anyone who carries a sidearm for protection should be prudent enough to also seek training for handgun retention. By no means does this make that person some kind of martial arts expert, but the 'basics' of handgun retention is a must it seems to me.

wheelgunslinger
January 19, 2006, 01:49 AM
Hey, thanks for the positive input, everybody.

I bought her a kubotan for her keychain, so she could walk to her car safely and have a chance to brain an attacker. I even showed her how to strike with it and where the proper pressure points were for it. Unfortunately, her hands are so small that her holding it was like me holding a small drain pipe. She's tiny. So now the kubotan is on my keychain.
I've tossed out the pepper spray ideas, and even the tazer thing to her. So far the most effective thing is showing her how effective a martial art like Aikido can be when employed by a physically small person like her. She likes the idea of being able to pin a grown man with one hand.
But, there's no equalizer like a handgun. It puts a well mentally prepared woman on better than equal footing with a moose of a man. And there's no need to train for 5 years to develop proficiency. So, of course, I would rather she carry a gun. But, what I want doesn't matter. It's up to her.
So, like Pax said, it's a long road. But, like a famous Buddhist said, "Every journey begins with the first step."
And so, we take it one step at a time because that is all we can do anyway.

ka50
January 19, 2006, 01:55 AM
saying stuff like that is basically implying that he has absolute no control over himself

mustanger98
January 19, 2006, 02:55 AM
I think the co-worker of the original poster's reasoning is just an excuse. He probably just doensn't like guns or doesn't feel threatened in every day society or both.

This reminds me of people who say "I've never been that scared" or "people who carry guns are looking for trouble". Or both.

mustanger98
January 19, 2006, 03:01 AM
I do agree with Pax. My original CHL instructor made sure to tell everyone that if you are not prepared to kill someone, don't carry a gun. I believe they teach you not to even pull it out unless you are prepared to shoot if you do carry. A gun is not a credible threat unless the holder is willing to use it.

My Grandpa was a WW2 veteran and Grandmama told me that's what he told her when they shot the gun he got for her that time. But she didn't like guns all that well either... in her case, she thought a 4" S&W .38 was "too big and too loud". But, in a defensive situation, you must be willing to hit 'em with the biggest stick you are able to bring to bear. Not saying a weapon has to be uncomfortable, but you must be willing to survive regardless of weight and noise.

Duach Laidir
January 19, 2006, 09:12 AM
Down here on the underside of the world where concealed carry and any other sort of carry has been banned and self defence 'is no reason to own a firearm' I have taught my son some of the defensive training that I learned in the Army.
I was fortunate enough to have 12 months with a Co Sgt Major who had been a WWII commando, and he taught us a lot.
I've just taught the son to use his thumb,protrouding over a clenched fist, to jab pressure points and other targets.
Along with the training goes plenty on the responsibility of a trained person never to start trouble, and unfortunately plenty on the necessity of knowing when to stop if a fight developes. They're strong down here on not using excessive force, the heat of the moment can become time to consider all aspects and conditions in a court room----when a split second is analysed for an hour.
Gee. I'd like to be able to carry again.

Janitor
January 19, 2006, 09:30 AM
Duach Laidir - Welcome to THR

Good job teaching your son self defence. Especially in an environment that frowns on protecting yourself.

They're strong down here on not using excessive force, the heat of the moment can become time to consider all aspects and conditions in a court room----when a split second is analysed for an hour.
Very good observation that one.

Court is much like a still photograph. Many a stunningly beautiful person's ego has fallen prey to the close inspection of imperfections (that everyone has) allowed by the examinaton of that frozen moment in time.

Gee. I'd like to be able to carry again.
I have zero doubt of that. I wish that I had words of encouragement, but it doesn't seem like your country is about to see the light any time soon. I truely wish it were otherwise. I honestly hate making this suggestion, but maybe it's time to consider emigrating?

Duach Laidir
January 19, 2006, 10:00 AM
Emigration is a great idea but unfortunately it is beyond the reach of the pocket !

Had a great friend, now unfortunately deceased, who moved overseas many years ago. He eventually moved to Denver and set up business there and did lots of hunting, when he could get away from his work.
As my boy gets older I'll teach him more. Both my Denver friend and I also took lessons/trained from/with an Australian whose job during the war was going behind enemy lines, in the Pacific, and guiding American flyers out after they had been downed. What he could do with bare hands was scary to say the least. However more than once I've seen him walk away from potential trouble so that it didn't get close and personal.
But even he preferred a good revolver.

Janitor
January 19, 2006, 10:12 AM
Both my Denver friend and I also took lessons/trained from/with an Australian whose job during the war was going behind enemy lines, in the Pacific, and guiding American flyers out after they had been downed.
Awsome to be trained by a hero. Skills lessons, and possibly great, hair raising stories to boot.

Understand about the costs associated with moving. I really hate that emigration could be the best solution (if it were financially viable). Australia needs far more men like you, and the man your son is probably going to become. Not fewer.

And we all (well ... many of us) prefer a good revolver. :)

stevelyn
January 19, 2006, 11:15 AM
I guess during the fighting and scratching to get to the top of the food chain, your co-worker was one of those left behind.

BedPimp
January 19, 2006, 11:45 PM
After discussing this extensively with my girlfriend over several weeks, she had a revelation. In a defensive situation, you are doing just enough to get the attacker to stop. It's not her choice, but the assailant's. She went from being scared of guns to enthusiastically shooting my shotgun within days.:)

thorn726
January 20, 2006, 01:16 PM
commonly heard response to gun ownership around me, here in the Bay area. IDIOTS.

i imagine the "try to take my water gun" test in in this thread somewhere already, and the people with the sense to listen long enuogh to hear that usually do understand- as long as you are REady to USE your wepaon, nobody is taking it from you

Tequila_Sauer
January 20, 2006, 01:32 PM
One thing I think a lot of anti's never take into account is the will to kill. Many seem to equate a gun with the will to kill.

IE: "People who kill occasionally use guns, so if you took away guns, people who kill would simply stop killing"

If a person has that will, the intent on killing a man or woman, chances are that whether you're carrying a gun or not, they're going to attempt to murder you. If they get your gun and kill you with it, they were probably going to kill you anyway. Simply seizing the gun didn't make them anymore likely to kill, I believe, unless maybe they were already shot with it and got to it.

obiwan1
January 20, 2006, 04:12 PM
I don't drive because I may get carjacked :neener:

akodo
January 20, 2006, 06:17 PM
i'd tell him, fine. Whatever. It is your decision to make, and it is a free country. However, just because HE and HIS FAMILY make that choice doesn't mean they should be forcing you to accept the same choice.

Some people choose not to own fire arms. Fine. Hell, some people are so pacifisct they would rather be shot and killed than do violence to stop a killer. I think they are crazy, but they are entitled to their opinion.

Now, if he starts trying to pass it off as fact 'if you have a gun it is more likely that the criminal will kill you than if you don't' call bull????. Otherwise just let him be an easy target.

akodo
January 20, 2006, 06:32 PM
I know a couple like this. Ironically, they drive a Volvo (because "It's the safest car made") and wouldn't dream of cruising half a block without seat belts on; the man wears a helmet while skiing the green runs and the bunny hill. Every cabinet in their house has child-safety latches, every electrical outlet has the little plastic covers on 'em

This I always find ammusing. He is a tool-user in more aspects than most, yet he blindly and stubbornly refuses to use a very important tool

Thain
January 20, 2006, 06:40 PM
Anyone who carries a weapon should be prepared to face the real possibility that you may be killed with your own weapon.... but the should have to beat you to death with it, because it's out of ammo. :)

akodo
January 20, 2006, 06:50 PM
My wife has taken two handgun courses with me. She is a good shot, but does not trust herself to be able to shoot someone in a self defense situation.

See, I think this is a very common 'first emotion' when you don't put a lot of thought into it. By and large, most people are not violent, and value human life. Someone who immediately and quickly jumps up and declares that yes they would kill another human being to defend themselves without giving it any thought, they tend to make me nervous.

I think saying 'I don't think i would be able to kill anyone' or 'i'd like to just scare them off' are both dangerous concepts in and of themselves, but are also providing an open door to the truth.

When talking to people who say this I usually ask 'Would you be able to use lethal force if someone was murdering your children' To which I have NEVER had someone answer in the negative. (Or for those without children of their own, about to rape a 10 year old girl, or having watched a monster stab 2 children to death, would you stand there and watch him stab a few more?) Find a situation where they would interviene beyond 'being a good witness' or 'calling 911' (wouldn't you at least try something, clawing him and biting him, so your child could run away) Once you talk about being aware of your surroundings, avoiding trouble, throwing your wallet/purse behind the criminal and attempting to get away, etc etc, and get down to the situation where said person truely is faced with grave physical harm, and that their loved ones and children may need saving, or even beyond that, the devistation that the death of thier mother would have on the children, I've never had a person who doesn't get the idea and say yes, as a last resort, I'd do what I must to save me and my loved ones.

I sometimes think that when just casually addressed, a lot of people have this mental picture of a woman walking to her car, hears something behind her, turns and just starts shooting wildly. Which is of course not true. The armed person ready to use lethal force would have avoided that parking spot, or would have been looking around and been alert for potential predators, have a flashlight, cell phone ready to call 911 etc etc AND have a firearm for last resort.

Jayman
January 20, 2006, 06:53 PM
I have some recollection of Joel Rosenberg posting a challenge. He wanted a verifiable news story of somebody having had their gun taken from them and used by the assailant. I think that challenge is still pending. I don't think such things are impossible, mind you, but the chance of that is a lot more rare than the chance that you'd need the gun to begin with.

My JKD instructor is a formidable fighter. He's a former amateur boxer, thai boxer, grappler, and has studied martial arts almost 20 years. You name the range and he has abilities in it. I'd put him up against just about anybody unless their name was Randy Couture.

That said, he carries a gun, and he teaches some aspects of dealing with them as part of his course work. He feels that to remain ignorant of guns, knives, etc., is to fall prey to them very easily.

progunner1957
January 20, 2006, 07:30 PM
"I don't carry a gun because if I did, criminal could use it to kill me."

I see his point. Police, U.S. Marshalls, FBI agents, U.S. Air Marshalls, Secret Service agents and all U.S. military personnel should follow suit.:barf: :barf: :barf:

Whoever said this should also stop eating, as he may choke himself to death on his food. He should also stop drinking ALL liquids, as he may drown himself if the liquid inadvertently goes down his windpipe.:D

progunner1957
January 20, 2006, 07:33 PM
"mostly she only has to worry about robbers and rapists"
Only?
ONLY????:barf: :barf:

What a worthless, nutless wonder of an excuse for a husband this poor woman has. Last time I checked, robbers and rapists are the reason why men arm their wives and single women arm themselves.

Progunner's rules for life #47:
If you love your woman, arm your woman. You can't be there to do the shooting all the time. While you're at it, make sure she is properly trained in the use of her gun.

mustanger98
January 20, 2006, 07:35 PM
Some of this reminds me of an old friend of my family... the guy's a former Marine and Korean War vet. He said he'd just eaten lunch and went back to his shop behind his house and as he was going in one door, he saw a miscreant leaving through the opposite door running off with his boombox. The thief just left with the loot and nothing else. The homeowner, our old friend, called the cops to file the report. So the cop asks him "what if he'd had a gun?" "He'd have probably shot me." Cop asks "what if he'd had a knife?" "I'd'a grabbed a 2x4 or mattock and beat the hell out of him." I don't know whether my friend owns a gun or not, but I know he's an old Marine, so you see the mindset.

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