Copper Bullets?


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DawgFvr
January 18, 2006, 09:17 PM
Has anybody tried the new Taurus Hex bullets?

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/taurus_45acp/

I fired up a couple of boxes in my Mil Pro PT145 and felt much less recoil...easier to get back on target for that next shot. The literature persuades one to believe that this is the perfect bullet for the shorter barrel .45 ACP. Educated opinions?

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mete
January 18, 2006, 11:04 PM
Go to Corbon , they have a very large selection of handgun and rifle ammo made with Barnes all copper HPs . They work very well !

DawgFvr
January 19, 2006, 03:14 AM
Couldn't care less for Corbon. My question was, "Has anybody tired the Taurus Hex all copper bullet?"

wbond
January 19, 2006, 05:02 AM
I'm confused. My cousin loves Barnes copper bullets for his deer rifle because he says there's no lead in his meat. A little copper in your diet is good for you (really).

So he loves them for deer hunting. He says the purpose of copper bullets is to avoid poisening your meat with lead pieces.

For self defense, what possible advantage could there be? Edible carcass?

Lead is heavier, so a bullet with a lead core can be shorter (while still heavy enough) which allows for room for more powder. A solid copper bullet is longer to get same weight because copper is lighter. This reduces room for powder.

If you have a copper bullet that's the same weight, it's shorter. This messes up stability and accuracy in super sonic rifles. I don't know about handguns, but I wonder.

For deer hunting it makes sense, but for self defense?

If I'm missing something here, please enlighten me. I'm not trying to be a smart alec. I'm truly not understanding the advantage of copper self defense rounds. If there is an advantage, please let me know.

Thanks

mete
January 19, 2006, 07:22 AM
Tell your cousin that while copper is an essential mineral in small amounts , in large amounts it's toxic !! There are serious efforts in places like Sweden to prohibit use of lead for hunting even moose !.. In any case it's not so important what the bullet is made of but how it works and the all copper ones work well.

Jubei
January 19, 2006, 09:49 AM
Couldn't care less for Corbon. My question was, "Has anybody tired the Taurus Hex all copper bullet?"

Yes.

Jubei

Ol` Joe
January 19, 2006, 12:57 PM
So he loves them for deer hunting. He says the purpose of copper bullets is to avoid poisening your meat with lead pieces.

The purpose of all copper rifle bullets is to have a bullet that won`t shed its core and retain maximum weight for deep penitration on large game. There are other boards where I`ve read questions on useing them on deer size and smaller game. The bullets are very tough and have been reported to fail to expand properly unless large bone is struck in some cases. It has been hinted the lead cored bullets are a better choice unless Elk, Moose or other larger game is the target. I don`t know if this is true as I`ve never felt the need for one (all copper) and have been happy with std constructed Hornady, Noslers, ect, on deer.

Think it over it over for a moment though. The purpose of a bullet in a defence handgun is to stop an attack. I don`t give a rip how much "lead" or other debris is left in the wound. I want the bullet to do as much damage as possible and stop the attack NOW. I want a bullet that expands fast in the "body" not on the other side, and penitrates reliably through clothing while doing this. I`m fine no matter the material it`s built from if it does this.

If you have a copper bullet that's the same weight, it's shorter. This messes up stability and accuracy in super sonic rifles. I don't know about handguns, but I wonder

Copper bullets are acually longer then lead for equal wgt. I think you`ve got a typo here.

The longer bullet can pose problems in some rifles as the twist needed to stabilize them can be faster for the heavier wgts then with the same wgt lead cored bullet. they also intrude on powder space and can make it difficult to find safe loads without the proper data from the BULLET manufacture. They aren`t interchangable as to loading data with lead core. They do serve a purpose in magnum rifles and on large game in rifles I must admit. The best use for them I feel is to use a lighter bullet in place of a heavy one, say a lighter 165 gr 30 cal bullet in place of a 180 gr lead core and drive it at a higher velocity for game you expect to have to take long shots at. This will flatten your trajectory and still give good penitration/performance at longer range in fast flat shooting cartridges.They aren`t the best for every situation but work pretty much as designed and do have purpose.

As far as all copper bullets in handguns, I`ve no idea how well they`ll work. I can see the need in some cases for increased penitration. The short barreled guns lower velocity might reduce penitration some and the copper bullet improve there, but other bullets styles would do as well IMO. I would worry about good expantion at low velocity though. I`m sure the designers have worked on this and it should be reliable, but I`ll wait for the street reports to come in first.
The accuracy of a self defence round is moot in my eyes. If I can keep hits on a 10" square at 15yds they are much more accurate then I need to defend myself at 5 ft. If the attacker is farther I`m probably better off trying to escape then have a shoot out.

rero360
January 19, 2006, 01:46 PM
My Grandfather used use the all copper shotgun slugs in his 11-87, and they were most efective, we were never able to recover the bullets after the shots, however the exit wounds were quite impressive.

DawgFvr
January 19, 2006, 01:48 PM
Looks like nobody read the url that I had in my original comment. The deeper penetration and expansion questions everyone comments on is right in the article. Jeeeessssshhh! If you never fired the rounds out of a pistol, at least read the article prior to making comments or asking questions that can be answered right off the top.

Biker
January 19, 2006, 03:24 PM
Relax, Dawg. Gettin' all uppity isn't going to help your cause. Now, I read the article, and I can see where they might have a place in the 'snubby world'.
My question is, when you stated that you felt less recoil, what load were you comparing it to?
Also, was there any fouling?
Biker

cowboybobb693
January 19, 2006, 03:29 PM
Yes. I use them in my carry weapon. I carry a Colt Gold Cup ans even though it is a full sized weapon I have noticed less felt recoil. I unfortunately had to shoot a dog with this round and found it to expand quite well.
Bob

Car Knocker
January 19, 2006, 03:41 PM
DawgFvr ,

In response to your first post:

Yes

Yes

DawgFvr
January 19, 2006, 04:40 PM
Excellent responses...thanx. Biker: There is no fouling with the copper bullets...in fact, compared to the lead stuff, the barrels are relatively clean after an afternoon's firing. Prior to the Taurus Hex copper round, I used Goldots in my .45. I love the .45 ACP, unfortunately, I have problems getting back on target with the tiny Millenium Pro PT 145 with all ammo. These copper bullet rounds, however, seem to be the rat's ass. Less recoil, easier to get back on target and, what the article seems to say, more lethal penetration and expansion results. I am a newbie with a side arm...prefer the rifle actually...but I have started carrying the pistol for last resort defense. I plan to follow Cooper's Mozambique Drill if I ever had to pull it in defense. Two quick shots to the body, one aimed into the head. This is my only practice routine...while running back to the last location I placed my rifle.

Biker
January 19, 2006, 05:20 PM
If these reports are accurate, I'm hoping that they'll make a load for my Taurus 450 2" .45 LC snubby. Although the recoil isn't excessive for a 17 oz revolver, if I could get a lighter recoiling 'in-town' load in .45 LC that performed like their .45 ACP load, I'd buy it.
Biker

client32
January 19, 2006, 05:58 PM
I use them in a Millenium (no pro) PT145. I think one reason they work well for me is that they weigh less. 185 grains IIRC.

I have found that lighter bullets of most brands work better for me with this gun. Accuracy and "recovery" time are improved.

I can't comment on penetration or expansion.

There is also a point for being enviroment friendly while defending yourself. :p

MICHAEL T
January 19, 2006, 08:40 PM
Taurus Hex all copper bullet?" I belive is the same Barnes bullet that Corbon is also loading that I carry in my commander and my 3" compact.

1911austin
January 19, 2006, 10:47 PM
I think Corbon loads an all copper bullet. :D

BHPshooter
January 20, 2006, 01:13 AM
I think Corbon loads an all copper bullet.

Yes, Corbon loads the same projectile -- the Barnes X-Bullet -- as the Taurus Hex Bullet.

Same projectile, it's probably just that a different company assembles the cartridge.

Wes

RyanM
January 20, 2006, 03:43 AM
They're okay in some applications, and the handgun ones tend to expand very reliably, but I strongly recommend picking a cartridge that will consistently penetrate deeper than 12".

k_dawg
January 20, 2006, 09:57 AM
I know that a copper bullet has advantages when one is on the very-light side of the spectrum. For example, in .45acp, lead bullets under 185gr do not fair so well, due to how short the bullet is.

DawgFvr
January 20, 2006, 01:58 PM
K dawg...um, read the url article posted in the first comment of this thread. It just refutes everything you mentioned in your comment.

Harley Quinn
April 28, 2008, 02:39 PM
Does anyone know the specs on the Taurus 45 acp Hex HP ammo. Weight, velocity etc. I can see it being a good one if it is slightly longer. You guys went off Barnes bullets and need to answer some of the questions about Taurus ;) But maybe the best thing is to go to the Taurus web page:uhoh:

Yep here it is:

http://www.handgunsmag.com/ammunition/taurus_45acp/index.html

BlindJustice
April 28, 2008, 03:13 PM
I read the article in the O.P. I will get a couple of boxes. Seems they
are using the Barnes 185 gr. XPB HP

FYI - CorBon made a deal with Barnes so they are the only
company using the 160 gr. Barnes XPB but CorBon re-badges them
as DPX

Barnes lists the following recommended for
.451 XPB bullets.
.45 ACP = 185 gr.
.45 Colt = 225 gr.
.454 Casull = 250 gr.
.460 XVR = 200 gr. = very pointy

I have some .45 Auto RIm loaded with the 225 gr. Barnes XPB
for my S&W 625 5" Bbl. @ 945 FPS. It is the most
recoil for any load in .45 AR that I have. fwiw.

What does the Taurus .45 ACP with these bullets cost?

BlindJustice
April 28, 2008, 03:43 PM
I forgot to mention - I got out a micrometer one time and
measured the width of the hollowpoint opening of some .45 ACP
Loads I had on hand.
Rem. 185 gr. JHP .215
WW 230 gr. SXT JHP .225
CCI/Speer 200 gr. JHP - the old flying ash tray
"Lawman" I had a box of from 20+ years ago. .245

I got to the 225 gr. Barnes XPB HP .45 Auto RIm
.260 - must help it expand

McCall911
April 28, 2008, 03:56 PM
From cited article:

Penetration in 10 percent of ballistic gelatin: 10 7/8 inches


Not having used this particular bullet, all I can give is an opinion and an observation. I won't charge anything over my usual rate ($0.00) for either:

10 7/8 inches in gelatin just isn't enough to make me happy, but the cavitation looks okay from what I can tell.

If Sir Isaac Newton was right, penetration is a function of bullet length and bullet density:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_depth
(Seeing that Sir Isaac was such a Mr. Smartypants, he probably was right.)

So this may just be a case of not enough bullet length.

Penetration...length...
I better stop before I get all Freudian... :o

wally
April 28, 2008, 04:31 PM
I read the original URL article. Under 12" (10-7/8") penetration in a 5" barreled 1911 tells me to forget about it in a sub-compact. YMMV.

--wally.

CPshooter
April 28, 2008, 06:42 PM
I read the original URL article. Under 12" (10-7/8") penetration in a 5" barreled 1911 tells me to forget about it in a sub-compact. YMMV.

--wally.
Isn't there the possibility of MORE penetration in a shorter barrel? A 5" barrel would definitely allow the bullet to leave at a faster speed, but at faster speeds a hollow-point bullet tends to expand faster and more instantly upon impact. This usually leads to underpenetration. Of course, there's always the possibility that if it was going too SLOW, it wouldn't expand at all or not enough and overpenetrate.

I think every application is different and it's hard to predict exactly how a certain round will perform in any given situation.

From what I've read, I was under the impression that the all copper Barnes bullet tends to penetrate deeper than a regular JHP, assuming both were the same weight and traveling the same speed. They also retain 100% of their weight after impact, even through hard barriers like car doors and such. Don't know how accurate those claims are though...

The copper bullets seem ideal for short-barrel handgun applications and also hunting for the reasons already mentioned.

RyanM
April 28, 2008, 11:21 PM
Isn't there the possibility of MORE penetration in a shorter barrel? A 5" barrel would definitely allow the bullet to leave at a faster speed, but at faster speeds a hollow-point bullet tends to expand faster and more instantly upon impact. This usually leads to underpenetration. Of course, there's always the possibility that if it was going too SLOW, it wouldn't expand at all or not enough and overpenetrate.

Actually, you're precisely right for the majority of bullets. Slower velocity = less expansion = deeper penetration. Even so, I'd want to see the stuff thoroughly tested out of the barrel length I'd plan on using it in, especially through heavy clothing. Less velocity usually, though not always, means less reliable expansion after hitting clothing.

On copper vs. lead and copper, Barnes rifle copper bullets are indeed good penetrators, but only because they retain full weight, while good quality non-bonded JSPs are usually in the 50% to 70% retained weight range, and even bonded ones can commonly be 60% to 80% or so. Very few bonded JSPs consistently retain 100% of their weight.

Handgun bullets, on the other hand, almost always retain over 90% of their weight, unless they're prefragmented or driven to over 1200 fps. So there's going to be very little difference.

McCall911
April 29, 2008, 12:26 AM
If Sir Isaac Newton was right, penetration is a function of bullet length and bullet density:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impact_depth
(Seeing that Sir Isaac was such a Mr. Smartypants, he probably was right.)

So this may just be a case of not enough bullet length.

I suppose I didn't give the whole explanation...

Copper bullets, being of a lower density than lead-containing bullets, are necessarily longer.
So if Sir Isaac was right, then a copper bullet might (in theory) penetrate deeper than the corresponding lead-containing bullet.

But in this case, by George, the copper bullet didn't penetrate too well at all, so its extra length didn't help. (If Newton's estimation is valid in this case.)

Big Boomer
April 29, 2008, 12:52 AM
You are also forgetting about one MAJOR aspect of the bullet design, when the bullet expands it does so in a petal formation, NOT a mushroom.

The point being that this * vs o is that the surface area of the expanding bullet will be greater and have more resistance in a standard hp bullet, as the copper construction with the petals allows impact matter to flow in between the petals lowering the resistance because it has less surface area therefore penetrating deeper.

Imagine a parachute opening as you fall from an airplane now take 40% of that parachute and cut slats into it, your resistance, or drag from the chute will be much less and you will fall much faster by allowing more air to pass through.

Same principal in the bullet design just different materials. I believe they both expand to about the same size.

Harley Quinn
April 29, 2008, 01:38 AM
But in this case, by George, the copper bullet didn't penetrate too well at all, so its extra length didn't help. (If Newton's estimation is valid in this case.)

I would have to say the violent wound channel and its opening on contact is the reason for a lack of further penetration. It is a lot more complicated now that the designs are so much more complicated than the simple theory you are pointing out:)

This bullet did its job missed the 12" mark laid down by someone, take a hard cast bullet and you will get better penetration but not as violent a wound channel. Looks like to me they have made a very good bullet and the fps is the criteria. This bullet for man is very good. I tried to buy some of these from a dealer in OK, but they were all sold out "Taurus". So I went to a store, local and they were sold out also, they say there will not be anymore coming into the country. Hmmm

Take that bullet with a flat nose similar to a wadcutter/semi wadcutter, and you are going to get a lot of penetration and less expansion (the original thought "Newton"):)

That same bullet in a 10mm would be interesting to see its penetration and wound channel (same weight)

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