"Shot" cartridges


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brekneb
January 20, 2006, 04:27 AM
Hmm was thinking. Just finished reading a post on ‘rat shot’ in rifle country and started wondering about some things. I was aware that there was ‘shot’ cartridges for calibers such as .38 and .22 etc. But I was NOT aware of there being such cartridges for larger rounds such as 9mm and so-on. So question is:
What are all the calibers that can use shot-type ammunition?

Is there a particular type of firearm (whether a long gun or a handgun or whatever) that is more appropriately suited toward using this type of ammo? (I’m guessing this would best be left to revolvers for the handgun world, and bolt actions for the rifle world?)--Or does it not matter?
One other thing; since we’re talking about shot going down the barrel of a firearm, does this shot damage the rifling of the barrel? Say like using a 9mm ‘shot’-round in a standard handgun?

Thanks for helping me, the uber-noob.

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brekneb
January 20, 2006, 08:13 AM
Oops, oh-crapper, I was just checking back on this (my) thread and saw the horrendous spelling error I'd made on the subject line. Sorry to the 23 people whom have already viewed me message. :D There, I corrected it. (cartidges to cartridges).

(Further editing)
Wut-the . . . I changed the spelling yet, I only notice the correction once I click on the thread itself (to view it) yet it has remains unchanged in the "main viewing area" so-to-speak. What? Anyway. Guess I should spell correctly from the beginning ESSPECIALLY when it comes to something as significant as the subject's wording/spelling. Sorry for the long rant :D
Oh yeah, plus, I'm not being sarchastic here.
Oh well, problem with spelling seems to be corrected, now.

TXGunGeek
January 20, 2006, 09:10 AM
Scoob_i_e,
You can get shot shells for at least up to .44MAG. CCI is probably the biggest manufacturer of shotshell pistol loads. The shot is held in a plastic capsule that is seated like a long wadcutter. The plastic comes apart once out of the barrel so the shot never touches the barrel. These are really for short range use as the shot spreads and slows rapidly. (No duck hunting here) One other issue is the spin imparted on the load tends to make the shot spread faster than if it was shout out of a very small smooth bore shotgun. They are mostly meant for use on snakes, rats or other small varmints at near contact range. Although the .44Mag load works well on a Bobcat at 6' when the cat is hit in the face as it charges.
Stay Safe!!

brekneb
January 20, 2006, 09:33 AM
The plastic comes apart once out of the barrel so the shot never touches the barrel.
Thanks Geek.
One thing though:

How exactly does it do that? How does the shot remain in the capsule as it goes down the bore YET once it all exit’s the bore, the plastic only THEN breaks apart? That is dumbfounding me :D
Basically I’m confused as to how the plastic remains intact--only until, it, along with the shot, exits the muzzle.
Does that question make sense?
Anyway thanks again Geek.

benEzra
January 20, 2006, 10:16 AM
It's relatively fragile plastic, gets scored by the rifling, it's holding a bunch of heavy pellets while spinning at thousands of RPM, and as soon as it exits the barrel the walls of the capsule are unsupported. Centrifugal force is probably sufficient to break it up, I'd expect. If not, aerodynamic stress while exiting the barrel would probably do it.

dodge
January 20, 2006, 10:21 AM
I've also seen it in 45acp and 45 lc.

Will Fennell
January 20, 2006, 11:48 AM
I've got quite a bit of experience using the .45ACP shoot shells from CCI. They pattern reasonably well, and will cycle most 1911's I've tried them in. They are 100% reliable in my 5" guns......and man are a blast to shoot! They certainly add a whole new deminson to shooting 1911's.

Thain
January 20, 2006, 12:27 PM
Okay, say I'm going hiking so I load my service size semiauto or revolver with these for use agianst snakes, coyotes, or the like. Things are going great, until one night in camp we get assaulted by Some Random Crazy®...

Will one of these have any effect on a human?

(Obvioussly a 'proper' round is better, this is a question of curiousity for pure 'worst case scenario' planning. Probably the best idea is to have my wife and I armed with one type in her sidearm and the other in mine (and a spare reload in the opposite type.).)

heisler
January 20, 2006, 12:45 PM
A friend of mine bought some of the .22LR shotshells. They were crimped shut, so I think the lead was loose inside rather than in a plastic capsule. They left his rifled barrel really dirty.

benEzra
January 20, 2006, 01:40 PM
Okay, say I'm going hiking so I load my service size semiauto or revolver with these for use agianst snakes, coyotes, or the like. Things are going great, until one night in camp we get assaulted by Some Random Crazy®...

Will one of these have any effect on a human?
They'd hurt, and "they could put yer eye out, kid." But no, I seriously doubt they'd do much to slow down a violent attacker. I don't think they'd be effective against a coyote, either, unless you just want to wound it and have it walking around in pain for a week. The shot size is TINY.

If it were me, I'd load only one chamber with a shotshell (for snakes) and the rest with good JHP's.

Thain
January 20, 2006, 01:53 PM
Point taken. I'll take wheelguns into the wilds and leave the semiauto's at home. Need to buy me some more guns `tho. Darn. :( :( :)

silliman89
January 20, 2006, 02:18 PM
When I go in the woods (shenandoah valley, VA) I carry a .38 (S&W 64) for snakes, loaded with snake shot. I'd been doing this for over a year before I finally saw a snake. Of course the only reason I saw this one was because it was between my feet as I was hiking. :what: So I did what comes naturally. I ran like hell.

I looked over my shoulder though to see if it was following me. You know that damn snake was just sitting there? It hadn't even moved!!! Thinking about it now, it had probably just eaten something and was sunning itself while it digested. It must have looked like a stick when I stepped over it, until it moved. At the time though, I wasn't really thinking. I was just mad, and found it's lack of reaction personally insulting. So I pulled out my gun and shot it. :uhoh:

Now I was about 15 - 20 feet away. I could see the snake clearly. I saw the cloud of dust the shot pellets kicked up all around it. The snake was in the center of the shot pattern and must have been hit. The damn thing just coiled up, raised it's head, and stared at me. :eek:

I'm convinced that sucker knew exactly what was going on, and that I was the one responsible. It was just waiting for me to get close enough so it could bite me. I, of course, shot it a few more times. ;) Finally it uncoiled and slithered away, luckily directly away from me. :)

The point of this long winded anecdote, is that at 15 - 20 feet these shot pellets don't have the energy left to penetrate snake skin, out of a .38 anyway. They are a very close range weapon only. You may want to keep that in mind.

answerguy
January 20, 2006, 02:28 PM
They'd hurt, and "they could put yer eye out, kid." But no, I seriously doubt they'd do much to slow down a violent attacker. I don't think they'd be effective against a coyote, either, unless you just want to wound it and have it walking around in pain for a week. The shot size is TINY.

If it were me, I'd load only one chamber with a shotshell (for snakes) and the rest with good JHP's.

Boy, I'd think a face full of shot would take the fight out of a BG, but not incapacitate unless you blinded him. OTOH- aiming at the chest would seem to be ineffective, especially if wearing heavy clothes.

silliman89
January 20, 2006, 02:32 PM
The shot is held in a plastic capsule that is seated like a long wadcutter. The plastic comes apart once out of the barrel so the shot never touches the barrel.

BTW, this isn't how the CCI shot works in the .38. The plastic top (front end) of the cartridge is scored, like you would slice a pizza. When fired, it blows apart and the pellets follow it down the barrel. The plastic walls remain behind, attached to the casing. You see them when you pull it out.

The .44 is bigger, so maybe they were able to design it differently. I don't know, I've never seen .44 shot.

silliman89
January 20, 2006, 02:39 PM
Boy, I'd think a face full of shot would take the fight out of a BG, but not incapacitate unless you blinded him.

I imagine it would, so long as you have the nerve to wait until he's just out of arms reach, say 6 or 7 feet, then shoot him right in the face. I expect he'd still run into you on his way to the ground though.

Thefabulousfink
January 20, 2006, 02:59 PM
I can't remember the name of the company, but somebody out there is making old style, two barrelled derringers with interchangable barrels. You can get them in .45 LColt and a short .410.

I think the .410 might give you a little better pattern (though not much because the barrel is so short)

RyanM
January 20, 2006, 03:27 PM
The 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP CCI shot loads will usually cycle semi-autos. The 9mm load is a bit anemic, but the .40s are more powerful than .38 shotshells (about 200 fps more velocity, on the same amount of shot). Just keep a round of snake shot in the chamber, and have a magazine full of either JHPs or heavy FMJs, depending on whether you're more worried about humans, or radioactive mutant ninja clown psycho DEA agent bears.

TallPine
January 20, 2006, 03:58 PM
Well, here is what I do - FWIW ...

In the warmer months I carry 1 CCI .38 snakeshot and 5 JSP .357 magnum. If I am out walking in the tall grass I make the snakeshot be the first in line, but otherwise I keep it in last place under the hammer. I figure that generally I will not be in a big hurry to shoot a snake, so that I can just pull the hammer partway back and turn the cylinder so the snakeshot is next up if I need to (you can tell by the color of the cartridge head which one is which as the CCI is aluminum and the magnum solids are brass).

That's the beauty of a revolver - you can actually index the cartridge that you want to fire. I figure that usually if I need the solid that I will need it right now ;)

I have some .22 shotshells but never tried to kill a snake with them. I shot one medium sized rattler in our driveway with the .38 shotshells from about 6' and I wasn't terribly impressed. It took the fight out of him[her?] but didn't kill it and I finished it off with a rock. Likely my mistake, as I just aimed COM, which a snake doesn't have much of;) , nor does it have much of a vital area. I'ts sorta like trying to shoot somebody in the leg :D . Next time I will center the shot pattern on the head and see if I get better results.

The old timers say that if you can get the snakes attention that you can shoot it in the head with a slow moving solid bullet like a .45 LC and the snake will actually see it coming and strike at the bullet, thus shooting itself in the mouth. I dunno if this really works :confused:

BTW, for those who will inevitably say that you should just kill a snake with a shovel - that's fine if you are out irrigating or digging postholes but I normally don't carry a shovel on my belt :p . I have yet to find a holster for a shovel and I think it would be hard to conceal:D

Hutch
January 20, 2006, 04:04 PM
BTW, this isn't how the CCI shot works in the .38. The plastic top (front end) of the cartridge is scored, like you would slice a pizza. When fired, it blows apart and the pellets follow it down the barrel. The plastic walls remain behind, attached to the casing. You see them when you pull it out.Silliman, that ain't how it's supposed to work. Never seen that effect before.

Also, the US Army had a shot cartridge for .45ACP pistol and submachine gun. Was supposed to be used against "unarmored targets". Yeah, well I guess they should be. Don't have the tech pub in front of me for the ammo designation, but I'm sure I saw it.

silliman89
January 20, 2006, 06:43 PM
Silliman, that ain't how it's supposed to work. Never seen that effect before.

Really? I only used them that one time. Maybe that box was defective or something. I'll look into it the next time I'm out in the woods. Thanks.

Carl N. Brown
January 20, 2006, 07:23 PM
I have always had the whole shot capsule exit the muzzle in
.38 Special/.357 shot shells (CCI makes one size for both).
If silliman89 had the plasic capsule left in the empty case,
that batch may have been defective.

I have also loaded my own with capsules from Speer (I hope my
memory is right on Speer) in .38/.357 for a GP100 and .45ACP for
a .455 Webley revolver. The trick is to load them so that the shot will
penetrate both sides of a steel soup can at about six feet to
be effective. Shot capsules are actually lighter than bullets and
require a heavier powder charge.

I have also used the CCI .45 ACP shotshells in a AutoOrdnance
1911A1 and they do function. You can also hang water ballons
from a tree and impress people with your uncanny hip shooting
untill they notice the strange empties. The .45 shorshells are
practically the length of a loaded .45 round, with the end of the
case sized in the shape of a bullet and the shot held in place
by a clear plastic wad.

The .45 shotshell for the Thompson SMG used a box magazine
longer (front-to-back) than the .45 ball ammo magazine; it was
advertised in the twenties as a non-lethal riot control agent
and the standard riot control pratice was to fire over the
heads of a mob.

TallPine
January 20, 2006, 07:59 PM
I haven't shot many of the CCI .38 snakeshot cartridges since they are so dang expensive, but I don't remember the blue plastic being left with the empty cartridge. Of course the aluminum cases are worthless for reloading so I didn't keep them either.

brekneb
January 20, 2006, 10:13 PM
Alright, so based on what you’re all saying, it doesn’t appear there’s really a particular TYPE of firearm to use for such rounds nor is there really a specific ACTION type to use for them either. Okay.

Yep, I really didn’t realize how high up in the calibers these things are available.

Plus I now believe I understand the whole manner in which the capsule remains intact issue/thing.

Thanks again much appreciated.

gazpacho
January 20, 2006, 10:29 PM
I have several packages of CCI 45acp shotshell because walmart was selling them off for 50 cents per 10 rounds. They won't cycle my RIA 1911A1. In my Ruger Blackhawk (45 acp clinder) the cases split and are difficult to extract.

neoncowboy
January 20, 2006, 11:00 PM
larger rounds such as 9mm

<snicker>

Hutch
January 21, 2006, 12:57 AM
I think they make better revolver ammo. My old habit was to carry 2 shot, followed by two mid-range cast bullet loads, followed by 2 earth-shakers while strolling the manse ;). No worries about cycling the slide or other malfs. I'm trying to imagine how much hurtin' goes down range from a Tommy gun firing this stuff. The mind boggles...

Tharg
January 21, 2006, 02:33 AM
Bought a "box" (aka - 10?) of them for my .357.

Got bored one day and decided to blow off 3 for the heck of it into a old book that didn't sell during our garage sale.

It was a hard back book about... 2 1/2 inches thickness, i'm guessing at a range of 6-10' away.

The pattern wasn't too bad if you wanted to hit something a book size =) (bigger than a paperback, smaller than those big hard backs)

At any rate... wasn't a whole lot of penetration, i rekon some of the shots (really tiny things) got 3/4 of an inch in... i know paper is a hard target because if thick will absorb a lot of energy... but seemed like they should do more.

Don't have any real world hit something living and what it did info... my point was that as one of my loaded guns would be handy for the seriously short distances in a house... and yet not penetrate too far if missed/partial hit etc... and like some have said... 1 or 2 of those.. then .357 starfire's finished out the 7 shot load... Add that to the fact that revolvers are inherently more reliable than an auto w/ odd ammo... and i like it =)

be interesting to see if .40sw shot shells would feed reliably w/ my HK USPc, so far its not failed to feed one shell since i bought it years ago =)

J/Tharg!

Carl N. Brown
January 24, 2006, 07:08 PM
Shot shells for handguns (and bulletted ammo):
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=34424&stc=1&d=1138036015
A. CCI .45 ACP shotshell; B. .45 ACP FMJ
C. .45 ACP, .45 Auto Rim and .45 ACP shotshell, handloaded for .455 Webley
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=34425&stc=1&d=1138036015
.38/357 shotshell, .38 Spl LRN; .22s: C. CCI shotsell #12 shot; D. CCI Stinger
E. CCI CB long, F. Federal Long Rifle; G. Federal shotshell #10
http://www.thehighroad.org/attachment.php?attachmentid=34426&stc=1&d=1138036015
A. 3" 11/16oz shot, B. 2.5" 1/2 oz shot Standard 410 shotshells; .45 Long Colt 1/3oz #9 shot;
.45 ACP CCI 1/2oz #9 shot(1911) and .45 ACP (webley handload) shotshells

The Scandinavian
January 24, 2006, 07:42 PM
I've used the the 9mm CCI shotshells out of a USP9F on rats at a range of about 8' (I was well hidden). The result? Instantly, stone-cold-graveyard-dead rats. They don't even twitch usually.

In my opinion they work well for the task they are intended for at sensible ranges.

Those people that have had "bad experiences" have usually tried to exceed the performance limitations of the type of cartridge. If you take a look at the size of the load of shot, and apply some common sense, I don't think you will be disappointed.

By the way, at least with the 9mms, all the blue plastic casing exits the barrel with the shot, there is nothing left in the case.

lawson
January 24, 2006, 08:04 PM
i found with snakes i often had to shoot several rounds of commercial snakeshot for the rattler threat to be removed. the CCI stuff is much better for rats and other furry pests. my dad's buddy makes his own snakeshot rounds in .45 Long Colt and .38 Special, and it's a lot more effective. the instructions he used to make them are found here (http://www.gunblast.com/Snake_Stopper.htm)

of course, if a snake is coiled, it's pretty easy to shoot them in the head from close range, and then make yourself a hatband.

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