PRK 'Fixed Mag' Question


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DevLcL
January 20, 2006, 02:49 PM
I'm looking here at the MagLok kit from sportingconversions.com and IIRC the kit allows you to 'fix' or remove a magazine with an allen wrench. In Kali, the actual law on the matter states that for a magazine to be considered 'fixed' it must require a tool for removal. So my question is this: With this kit, do I have to 'fix' a single magazine and keep it that way (break open and load from top:( ) or can I use the tool and switch magazines?

-Dev

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billwiese
January 20, 2006, 05:15 PM
Hi, DevLcl..

I'm looking here at the MagLok kit from sportingconversions.com and IIRC the kit allows you to 'fix' or remove a magazine with an allen wrench. In Kali, the actual law on the matter states that for a magazine to be considered 'fixed' it must require a tool for removal.

You are apparently talking about some sort of AR lower. Using such a kit indeed allows a fixed mag to be legally considered not a detachable magazine in CA as per DOJ regulatory definition (Calif Code of Regulation, section 978.20).

You might wanna go further and use a lockwasher (maybe it's included) and a touch of green ThreadLok for "just in case". (This is the light stuff, and minor applied heat can cause it to loosen.) You just don't want that screw to loosen during firing where it can spin loose and be thumbed off by hand.

Now, going further, it depends on what kind of lower you have as to whether this is even important. I couldn't tell from your post so for the sake of completeness I'll discussion the 'variations on a theme':

If your lower/gun is ALREADY a legal, pre-2000 registered assault weapon, you really don't need to affix a nondetachable magazine. Since such a lower is more than likely a specifically-named Category II assault weapon on the Kasler list, affixing this or removing this would not affect its assault weapon status. (If such a named lower were not a registered assault weapon in your name, it would still be banned at the bare lower level even if you had no features attached - and it is thus illegal for you to possess!)

[However, if registered as an AW but your lower is one of the very, very few pre-2000 brands/model combinations that did NOT appear in the Kasler list (thus making it a Category III AW), then affixing a nondetachable magazine would indeed allow this Category III rifle to be treated like a normal rifle for the duration that evil features combo not present. This is relatively unlikely however if your lower is a common model from one of the common manufacturers.]

Now, if you have just recently acquired one of the "off-list"/"non-Kasler" lowers that are all the rage in CA for a very short time right now, then the situation is different and your question is very important:

So my question is this: With this kit, do I have to 'fix' a single magazine and keep it that way (break open and load from top ) or can I use the tool and switch magazines?

If you have one of these off-list lowers it is VERY IMPORTANT to NEVER remove or change such fixed magazines WHILE a pistol grip, and/or a telescoping, folding or collapsing stock, and/or an upper w/flash hider are attached. Otherwise you've illegally created a 'by features' Category III assault weapon.

These off-list lowers can ONLY legally exist as either (1) a bare stripped lower, or (2) having a fixed nondetachable mag FIRST before any other evil features attached.

This way the CA definition of assault weapon is not violated: "a semiautomatic rifle with detachable magazine and [list of evil features]".

Thus ALWAYS have a fixed nondetachable mag affixed BEFORE adding pistol grip or other evil features; and always REMOVE all evil features (pistol grip, etc.) BEFORE servicing/removing/changing fixed nondetachable magazine.

If such off-list lowers are declared as AWs (as we think fairly soon) and you receive your reg papers back, the detachable mag issue is moot and you can do as you please.

Note that the fixed nondetachable magazine MUST be 10 rounds or less otherwise you have created an illegal assault weapon by one of its other definitions ("a semiautomatic rifle with a fixed magazine holding more than 10 rounds").

Please check my AR/AK FAQ at the top of Calguns.NET tool bar (in red text) for more info on this and related subjects. There is much activity/discussion on Calguns about this, by the way.


Bill Wiese
San Jose, CA

smince
January 20, 2006, 07:43 PM
Wouldn't it be easier to just move to another state?:D

billwiese
January 20, 2006, 09:12 PM
Wouldn't it be easier to just move to another state?:D

Um, well, some of has have family and professional ties here. We're trying to fight in position. Just can't pack up & leave.

Got any $150k/yr embedded systems software engineering jobs? In an area where real estate goes up nicely (even if a tad slower now)? Where you can get another job in a short time if your old one disappears? Where you can drive to SF and hear one of the best orchestras in the world? Where there's still new companies forming because the best & brightest hang out here?

Naah, didn't think so.

Bill W.
San Jose CA

DevLcL
January 21, 2006, 05:02 PM
Wouldn't it be easier to just move to another state?:D

Wow, really helpful Smince. With remarks like that you'll make mod in no time. I DO NOT think what you said was funny or clever in any way. You're like the comedic relief in a B movie.

Anyway, When I read the law it says that the magazine MUST require a tool for removal. In my mind, if it requires a tool to remove the magazine then its not 'detachable', by law. TO ME, this says I can change the magazine as often as I want as long as it requires a tool. Thats the only way they describe it and for them to throw rules at me in court that arnt even real seems pretty risky for the prosecution. I think I'll try my luck with multipule mags... thanks anyway for your advice Bill.

-Dev

smince
January 21, 2006, 06:25 PM
Sorry!

OFF TOPIC:

It's just that it seems about every third thread is someone questioning or complaining about the laws in CA. Is this legal? Can I own this? I got my C&R license in August. Since I started receiving dealer sales flyers the words that stand out are always "Not For Sale in CA". And this isn't just CR arms either, but the modern stuff.

I couldn't live there. (Oh, but I have been TDY there a few times).

Got any $150k/yr embedded systems software engineering jobs? In an area where real estate goes up nicely (even if a tad slower now)? Where you can get another job in a short time if your old one disappears? Where you can drive to SF and hear one of the best orchestras in the world? Where there's still new companies forming because the best & brightest hang out here?

Don't sell Bama short. We have a lot of high-paying DOD and "rocket science" jobs here. But the cost of living is way lower here, and we don't have many stupid gun laws. It only takes about ten minutes to get a CCW where I live. We can own AR15's without "fixed" mags or in a single shot configuration. Seems you can own revolvers, 10round mag auto's, lever-actions, and shotguns without any hassle, though.

There's more going to life than money and orchestra's.

(P.S. If you go to SF, be sure and leave your handguns at home.)

billwiese
January 22, 2006, 10:41 PM
Anyway, When I read the law it says that the magazine MUST require a tool for removal. In my mind, if it requires a tool to remove the magazine then its not 'detachable', by law.

Yes. The hidden agenda in this is that it really shouldn't be readily removeable, changeable, replaceable in normal course of rifle operation. That way you stay on the safe side of the law in case the regulation ends up being parsed further in court.

... this says I can change the magazine as often as I want as long as it requires a tool.

Yes. But IF AND ONLY IF you remove the pistol grip and/or telestock and/or flash-hider-equipped upper FIRST. You NEVER want to have an off-list AR lower with an open magwell and any evil feature attached or you have an illegal AW.

Bottom line:
1. install fixed nondetachable 10rd mag FIRST before any other evil feature;
2. REMOVE fixed nondetachable 10rd mag LAST, after ALL other evil features are gone;

.... violating either 1 or 2 means that, even for a very short temporary period, you have an illegal assault weapon.


Thats the only way they describe it and for them to throw rules at me in court that arnt even real seems pretty risky for the prosecution. I think I'll try my luck with multipule mags... thanks anyway for your advice Bill.


Again, please look at the whole picutre above. You're free to change magazines - on a BARE lower. The moment the lower has a pistol grip, it'd better have that fixed 10rd mag already installed. A bare off-list AR lower with a pistol grip and/or telestock, etc. and with an empty magwell, is by definition an illegal AW.

Please see my FAQ at Calguns.net - it's in red on the titlebar in the Forum header... you really need to read this to stay out of jail if you're dealing w/off-list AR lowers.

Bill Wiese
San Jose, CA

billwiese
January 22, 2006, 10:49 PM
I couldn't live there. (Oh, but I have been TDY there a few times).


Fine. Hell if I lived somewhere else I might not move here either.


Don't sell Bama short. We have a lot of high-paying DOD and "rocket science" jobs here.

I've seen the salary scales vs cost of living. It's OK. But you can't accumulate cash rapidly. And it takes time to find a new job. In Silly Valley you pick up the phone.

There's really no innovation there. And those DoD jobs aren't that high-paying or they'd not get the contract. These days, most DoD stuff lags the consumer sector in technical innovation. And working for a DoD job is kinda a kiss of death in the private sector. Those jobs don't always have a lot of transferrable skills, and the folks all seem to not handle fast-paced work environments - they seem to really wanna go home at 5pm. We churn thru lotsa those folks in Silicon Valley every layoff cycle.


We can own AR15's without "fixed" mags or in a single shot configuration.

I have seven ARs and 2 FALs that aren't funky. New folks cant, unfortunately though. Yes, I know that sucks.


There's more going to life than money and orchestra's.


Yes, grammar and spelling count too. Your incorrect use of the apostrophe for a plural word (in orchestra's above) - is that a reflection of 'Bama's school system? Are they still teaching creationism in science class down there, or have you managed to kick out the bible thumpers?

Bill Wiese
San Jose, CA

DevLcL
January 22, 2006, 10:50 PM
Thanks.

-Dev

smince
January 22, 2006, 11:21 PM
Yes, grammar and spelling count too. Your incorrect use of the apostrophe for a plural word (in orchestra's above) - is that a reflection of 'Bama's school system? Are they still teaching creationism in science class down there, or have you managed to kick out the bible thumpers?

How about that? Guess I got in a big hurry and forgot to proof my post. Had to slop the hogs and shuck the corn you, know.:rolleyes:

P.S., I am a "bible thumper", thank you very much.:D

Ridge
January 22, 2006, 11:36 PM
So by that definement of the Clai law,My Marlin Model 60 would be an "Assualt weapon"?

Damn that sucks

DevLcL
January 23, 2006, 12:02 AM
So by that definement of the Clai law,My Marlin Model 60 would be an "Assualt weapon"?

Damn that sucks

You're Model 60 is a rimfire. So no worries.

-Dev

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