Most powerful .40S&W round in the market?


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Mechanist
April 10, 2003, 07:13 AM
What is currently the most powerful .40S&W round available in terms of kinetic energy?

I came across Leader FMJ ammo (made in E.C.) , which is claimed to reach v(0) 370m/s with 170gr / 11,02g bullet.

This produces about 754J or 556 ft lbs of energy.

Can anything factory made top that or are those ratings even correct?

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denfoote
April 10, 2003, 09:48 AM
What's the most powerful ???

10mm!!!! :neener:

PCRCCW
April 10, 2003, 10:27 AM
Id be very sceptical about the #'s given....the defensive JHP ammo makers in the states are very progressive in the R&D and IMO, have gone as far as you can with the 40 S&W rnd.
Ive shot +P+ from Goergia arms....If its hotter than that...your gonna get into trouble.....plus you dont know the barrel length given with the #'s from the maker of the "hot stuff"..........
Chrono says.....135-155 Corbon & Goergia Arms is the hottest Id trust....
Shoot well

cratz2
April 10, 2003, 03:53 PM
Are you wanting an effective load or bragging rights?

For most effective, the Ranger SXTs and Gold Dots are very effective.

David DiFabio at AmmoLab got 1,130-1,140 fps out of the 155 Gr Gold Dots from a G23 and about 1,040 fps out of the 165 Gr Gold Dots both from Black Hills.

370 m/s is about 1170 f/s. Those sound like very high numbers for a 170gr out of any practical length barrel. Maybe a 10" test barrel but not a practical 4" or 4.5" barrel.

OF
April 10, 2003, 04:11 PM
cratz is absolutely right. Big difference between kinetic energy and terminal performance.

180gr Gold Dot and 180gr Winchester Ranger Talon are two top loads. The Ranger is sold 'Law Enforcement Only' but can be found if you look around.

- Gabe

PCRCCW
April 11, 2003, 08:12 AM
I believe the 155/165 gr are the top performing loads in H/Shocks, GDots and Sabers....these loads actually passed the 357 Mag for top data.....
They have consistently higher ballistic ratings than the heavy loads....Shoot well

Bobarino
April 11, 2003, 04:19 PM
RBCD Performance Plus ammo makes a 77 grain .40S&W at 2100FPS and 754ft/lbs of energy at the muzzle. pretty serious stuff. www.rbcd.net interesting stuff....

next in line is the Cor-Bon 135 grain stuff. not sure of the numbers on that though....

Bobby

OF
April 11, 2003, 05:08 PM
RCBD is pretty serious stuff all right. Pretty seriously awful. Don't bet your life on a gimmick. There is real information out there on ammunition performance and you won't find it in gun magazines. 'Fast and light' is a major mistake. Maybe a fatal one.

Go to the 'terminal ballistics' forum at www.tacticalforums.com and read anything from DocGKR, David DiFabbio or Shawn Dodson. Make your own evluation of their research.

Become enlightened. Don't carry lame ammo. :)

- Gabe

Jeff OTMG
April 12, 2003, 07:10 PM
A customs officer in Ca. would disagree with you about RBCD ammo. He fired into the back of a Suburban, through the rear door, rear bench seat, drivers seat, killing the driver.
Medical examiners in both Houston and NYC would not agree either.
Many in the Israeli govt, U.S. govt, and a certain Canadian sniper from Alberta would disagree as well.
You might also contact these guys http://blackwaterusa.com/ to see what they think of RBCD, if they are willing to talk to you. I would bet that when they sent a DC-8 overseas for the U.S. govt around the end of Feb that there was some RBCD on it.
In fact RBCD now has a 'Tactical' line out that has a .40 S&W at over 2300 FPS for over 800 FPE.
There are people who speculate about how bullets perform, then there are people who shoot jello with SOME calibers of RBCD and make guesses, then there are people who shoot other people with RBCD. I will believe the last group.

BUT, none of this BS has ANYTHING to do with the posters original question. His question is quite specific:
"What is currently the most powerful .40S&W round available in terms of kinetic energy?"
If I remember correctly KE=1/2m*(V^2) where m=mass and V = velocity, so as speed increases, kinetic energy also increases. Since the equation has a velocity squared term in it the increase in kinetic energy is exponential compared to the increase in speed. When the velocity doubles, the kinetic energy quadruples. Sticking to the question that was asked, the velocity has a tremendous impact on the KE, whether the bullet is a FMJ, HP, JTC, TFSP, or BMTSP, and RBCD is the fastest stuff out there that I am aware of.

OF
April 12, 2003, 07:51 PM
Jeff,

I ain't no expert. I just like what I hear from the guys in the Ballistics forum at TF. It would be cool if you would post some of that info over there for them to discuss. Let me know if you do - I find this stuff fascinating. I'm not qualified to make any judgements on ballistics, but they certainly are. I do know that the 'jello' guys over there know plenty about shooting people also, and autopsy results are certainly part of the equation. You have to be looking for the autopsy results to confirm or disprove the performance predictions you made with the jello (test medium). If the ammo performs in the test medium, it can be reasonably expected to perform similarly in real tissue. That's why the medium was developed, as a simulant. Anecdotes aside, there has to be some way to compare ammunition without shooting people. There has to be some way to remove variables that can not be controlled for in an actual shooting. Jello is the way. But it has to be constantly verified with actual autopsy data in order to be sure that the test medium is a viable simulant and you can trust the results.

I get the feeling all of that is perfectly understood by the 'jello' guys over there.

- Gabe

Shawn Dodson
April 13, 2003, 12:26 AM
A customs officer in Ca. would disagree with you about RBCD ammo. He fired into the back of a Suburban, through the rear door, rear bench seat, drivers seat, killing the driver.
Medical examiners in both Houston and NYC would not agree either.
Many in the Israeli govt, U.S. govt, and a certain Canadian sniper from Alberta would disagree as well. What was the load used by the customs officer? When did the shooting happen? Any newspaper reports to publicly document the shooting?

When were the shootings in Houston and NYC? Any newspaper articles to publicly document the shootings?

The rifle loads exhibit greater penetration than the handgun loads, as noted in the two AFJ articles from Blackwater.

I don't doubt that RBCD handgun ammo can drop bad guys. However its performance is inadequate for general-purpose use.

WESHOOT2
April 13, 2003, 09:35 AM
Independent 135g testing (G27 launch platform) gave one maker :neener: highest consistent velocities; Cor-Bon 135g (the overall 'fastest'), while giving higher maximum velocity, also gave highest extreme spread (over 100 fps).

The US Border Patrol has had superb results using R-P 155g JHP (I've chrono'ed this from a 4.25" at over 1200fps).

Kinetic energy is mathematical :banghead:

ajacobs
April 13, 2003, 10:10 AM
A customs officer in Ca. would disagree with you about RBCD ammo. He fired into the back of a Suburban, through the rear door, rear bench seat, drivers seat, killing the driver.

Now the last thing I am is a ballistic expert. But this case seems to contain atleast 3 reasons why I wouldn't want to carry it. Overpenetration being the primary if it goes through all that stuff before killing a person what is to keep it from going through the intended bad guy and killing someone on the otherside. Secondly does this mean the round didn't expand at all or break appart with all the things it went through, can it some how not expand in all of those things but expand fine in a person? Forgive my ignorance but it would just seem from a laymans perspective that this ammo would be a bad choice.

sjtalon
April 13, 2003, 10:28 AM
http://www.gun-tests.com/newspics/pdfs/1-4-40ammo.pdf

ReconTech
April 13, 2003, 02:27 PM
RBCD and other "light loads" are gimmicks in that they work well as a "shock power factor" and on bare gellitan. However, there have been cases of people with two layers of clothes and a heavy leather jacket, and they were not stopped.

Also, while we are on it, let me get into some other "real life factors"

In and around my jurisdiction, recently a man was shot twice center mass with .40S&W out of a glock 22, and all that the did was look down, and say "ouch, that stings" and stole the patrolman's car and drove off. Shooting was never fatal.

Also, three shots from .45ACP did not stop a perp recently.

In the Trooper Coates shooting, 5 rounds of .357 magnum +P did not stop his assailant.

Scarry but true, thats why now my jurisdiction teaches 2 center mass one head shot. Works better that way.

In all reality, as in the trooper coates shooting were he died of a .22LR shot out of a deringer, shot placement means a whole lot more than the type of shot.

Hopefully none of us ever have to find out if our ammo works well...regardless of our disagreements or whatever, we are all on the same playing field, with badguys our enemies...

stay safe...

Zundfolge
April 13, 2003, 02:49 PM
Independent 135g testing (G27 launch platform) gave one maker highest consistent velocities; Cor-Bon 135g (the overall 'fastest'), while giving higher maximum velocity, also gave highest extreme spread (over 100 fps).

Power ain't everything.

I used to carry 135gr Cor-Bons until I compared them to 165gr Gold Dots. I noticed my groups tightened up by as much as an inch and a half at 15 yards when I switched from the Cor-Bon stuff (in addition I think their calling the ammo +p is a bit silly since there is no such thing as +p .40S&W). In part I think its because the recoil of the 135s is harsher (which really only effects followup shots) but I also think the ammo is inherently less accurate then other ammo on the market.

I've read that the 135gr Pro Load JHPs are supposed to be pretty hot and accurate too.

One great thing about the 165gr Gold Dots is that you can get it for cheaper then most FMJ practice ammo at www.ammoman.com :neener:


Here's a good source for info on the .40 (however his site seems to be down right now)
http://greent.com/40Page/

Jeff OTMG
April 19, 2003, 06:51 AM
Okay, this is what I have:
Customs or Border Patrol shooting occurred in Ca., officer from the San Diego office. Jim Cirillo mentioned it in an article he wrote a couple of years ago. I am in Oklahoma and the article is in Austin. I will find out publication and date when I return in about a week. Verified to me by a Border Patrol agent in the El Paso office.

Houston shooting occurred the last half of 2001. I checked the Houston Chronicle site lookiing for the article, but the archives are a pay site. There were two perps involved.

NYC actually had two shootings. First was in the subway early 1999, suggest contacting Jim Cirillo, he is in NJ and is familiar with the incident, the NY Transit Police, and NYC Medical Examiners office. More recent shooting occurred in Harlem late 2001. I spoke to the dealer in Pa. who sold it to the shooters brother-in-law. Come to find out the shooter was in the witness protection program. Contact NYC ME about that one as well. I tried the ME when I was there in September last year, but it was over the Labor Day holiday and couldn't get the guy. His comment to the dealer was that it was the most destructiive wound profile he had ever seen from a handgun.

Be aware that none of the newpaper articles are going to mention RBCD, just as the do not mention Gold Dot. The closest was the Canadian sniper describing the .50 BMG as the American ammo 'that shoots farther, flatter, and faster' than the ammo they use. Of course the RBCD ammo in use is between 400 and 500 grains rather than the 753 gr (I think) that they usually shoot. No shootings with the new 200 gr load at over 10,000 fps yet besides some unfortunate prairie dogs and coyotes. Neat thing about that load is that you don't need to hit them, the pressure wave from the bullet turns their insides to jelly as it passes by.

ajacobs, RBCD only penetrates thin barrier material. It will break up on a brick wall or sidewalk. It disrupts in a moist medium. Depending on handgun caliber the loads penetrate 8-12 inches with the .44 mag going 15 inches. Photos of shots into ballistic clay (as used by the NIJ and FBI) and gelatin (as used by everyone else) can be found on the website www.rbcd.net so you can see the penetration in a wet media for yourself. Special Application Ammo (SAA) will penetrate Threat Level III body armor, but that is only available to law enforcement agencies on a PO. There is also a line of ammo available only on federal agency PO that is EXTREMELY expensive, $120/box of 20. The .38 Special is a 28 gr slug at 2600+ fps from a 2" barrel J-frame. It creates a HUGE wound cavity at 25 feet. At 50 feet it penetrates about 1" and does not upset. At 75 feet it will bounce off a heavy leather jacket. If a square hit is made in a limb or neck, the limb or head will be severed from the body. It will not penetrate the body of an airplane (gee, I wonder who uses this?) and will disrupt on a thin barrier. The best source of testing on SAA is from the people at Blackwater Training, ask for Gary. There is also much work being done at Kirkland AFB in N.M. as part of a Sandia Labs project, but it is doubtfull that you will be able to get that info.

There will also be a new video available of RBCD being fired into gelatin (probably ballistic clay as well to satisfy the govt users) using a high speed digital camera. It was to be completed around June, but that camera is currently in use shooting the recreations of the damage occurring to the Challenger space shuttle to analyze the cause of the accident. That work will be completed within the next month or two so I still hope to see the RBCD video by fall.

ReconTech, I have heard of Glaser Safety slugs blowing up on some heavy hardware on a leather biker jacket, but I am not aware of any failure of RBCD ammo in the way you suggest. RBCD is NOT Glaser and is NOT MagSafe. If you know of a specific instance of an RBCD 'clothing related' failure I would love to hear about it.

Even Marshall has published the 3rd edition of his book and although I have not read it, I hear that he has positive comments on RBCD. Marshall is privy to the Kirkland data as he is currently doing security with the NRC at Sandia. Marshall's comments may be conservative as he was not given free ammo to test with and was not happy about it.

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