Brady's defend Operation Showtime


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LAR-15
January 23, 2006, 12:43 AM
"Waco, Texas – Branch Davidian Shootout
Perhaps even more notorious than the West Hollywood shootout, the 51-day
government siege of David Koresh’s Branch Davidian complex near Waco, Texas on
February 28, 1993, was initiated because the Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco and Firearms
1 See USSG § 2K2.4(b) and 18 U.S.C. § 924(c)(1)(C)(ii).
13
(ATF) learned that Koresh and his followers had been converting semi-automatic
weapons into illegal fully automatic machine guns.
A large group of federal agents, attempting to execute a search warrant of the
Branch Davidian compound were met by a hail of machine gun fire from Koresh’s
followers. Four officers were killed and twenty were wounded in the ensuing firefight.
(Many other Branch Davidians were killed by their own gunfire.) Koresh’s followers had
access to a much larger arsenal than the two North Hollywood bank robbers, and it
required the government to bring in an army of federal agents and very heavy firepower
to subdue the Davidian compound."

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beerslurpy
January 23, 2006, 12:49 AM
I understood that it was aimed semiauto fire at close range that killed the 4 agents. The branch davidians were later killed by arson I beleive.

Personally I think the whole raid was concocted for political showmanship with full knowledge there was no actual wrongdoing going on at the compound. The branch davidians probably didnt have to go down shooting, but I completely understand.

Also, remember all the stories about child abuse and brainwashing that came out during the standoff? This is what the government does to you when they are wrong and dont want to admit it.

In any case, I am comforted by the fact that it was an embarrasing debacle that helped to accentuate the rift betwen gun owners and the then-ruling Democratic party. Like hurricane Katrina, it helped to illustrate to an ever-growing number of Americans that our government is not to be trusted.

LAR-15
January 23, 2006, 12:57 AM
It was a major goverment screwup and the coverup just made it worse.

Why anti-gun groups,though, would defend the raid or find nothing wrong with the BATFE's or FBI's actions is puzzling.

beerslurpy
January 23, 2006, 01:10 AM
I think there are many in the moderate-left crowd that genuinely care about civil rights and find such govt-sponsored butchery repugnant. These guys tend to be "anti-gun" from the standpoint that they arent enthusiastic about guns or possibly find them yucky, but it isnt really their life's work to disarm you and me. These are the guys that respond yes to Brady Bunch polls but dont vote on the gun issue.

The hardcore disarmament wonks arent really concerned with civil rights so much as they are concerened with clearing the way for their personal vision of utopia. Breaking a few eggs isnt important as long as the omlette gets made. We cant reason with or win over these guys. We simply have to defeat them or be defeated.

Then there are the opportunitists and kool-aid drinkers who swallow the anti-gun nonsense because it is part of the democratic party platform. These are the guys we are indirectly aiming at every time we defeat an anti-gun democrat and show that it was the gun issue that undid them.

Long term, the Democrats will eventually recover from their slump because:
-the old schoolers like Kennedy, Boxer and Feinstein will eventually retire or die- this removes a lot of the inertia the reformers cant overcome
-the Democratic party is going to start looking more and more conservative if it wants to be a majority party again. The big city socialists control the democratic party too tightly on the national level.
-the republican party is looking more and more like the democrats of the early 90s. Put a bloated, spendy and intrusive republican party against a semi-libertarian, pro-gun, fiscally conservative democratic party and you have a new winner.

Fletchette
January 23, 2006, 03:30 PM
"Operation Showtime" - kinda says it all, doesn't it? The ATF wanted to put on a show, invited the media, and got caught in a major blunder. Why would the Brady's defend such a "mission"? Because they are statists. Like Berrslurpy said,

"The hardcore disarmament wonks arent really concerned with civil rights so much as they are concerened with clearing the way for their personal vision of utopia. Breaking a few eggs isnt important as long as the omlette gets made. We cant reason with or win over these guys. We simply have to defeat them or be defeated."

ArmedBear
January 23, 2006, 06:10 PM
Brady doesn't mind if innocent people are mowed down using machine guns, as long as it's an authoritarian government doing the killing.

They're filth.

WRT the BATFE...

What, exactly, did these agents die for?

An agency of glorified tax collectors, with a history of protecting large liquor and tobacco interests by jailing small farmers and poor people in the Depression for trying to make a few bucks? An arm of the police state whose mission is to charging people with felonies for failing to do paperwork, or people merely possessing inanimate objects, with no intent to do harm to anyone?

They truly did die in vain.:(

spartacus2002
January 23, 2006, 08:42 PM
When I think of Waco, I think of PJ O'Rourke's quote:

"So the government says they were religious nuts with guns? Hell, this country was FOUNDED by religious nuts with guns!"


I watched Waco: The Rules of Engagement this past week. One of the extras is the 911 tape. You can hear gunfire. There is rapid fire, but clearly no full-auto fire.

LAR-15
January 23, 2006, 11:17 PM
Nevermind

joab
January 23, 2006, 11:28 PM
Shortkly after Waco and Ruby Ridge a group in Montana known as the Freemen were being set uo for a similar siege by the government.
Armed citizens started showing up in the rear and forced the agents to change their plans.

The Davidians did not die in vain we just forgot too soon

Malone LaVeigh
January 23, 2006, 11:35 PM
Uh, is there supposed to be a link in the first post? Please at least reference a story or whatever you're talking about.

Kodiaz
January 23, 2006, 11:37 PM
Well Waco and Ruby Ridge woke a lot of people up I wasn't one of them sorry and they started the whole militia movement. But Mcveigh blew up that building and that sent public opinion against the militias. I wonder if the gov. would have been more respectful of our rights recently if those militia groups were still about.

ArmedBear
January 24, 2006, 12:01 AM
Shortkly after Waco and Ruby Ridge a group in Montana known as the Freemen were being set uo for a similar siege by the government.
Armed citizens started showing up in the rear and forced the agents to change their plans.

The Davidians did not die in vain we just forgot too soon

The AGENTS died in vain. They probably thought they were doing something good.

The Davidians? Hard to say what they were about. But I'm glad that happened in Montana.

LAR-15
January 24, 2006, 12:42 AM
It was in a very recent press release by Dennis Hennigan in trashing Samuel Alito.

antsi
January 24, 2006, 09:32 AM
I think there are many in the moderate-left crowd that genuinely care about civil rights and find such govt-sponsored butchery repugnant.

Most of the lefties I know don't need to hear anything more than "Christian" and "gun owner" to consider the subject on par with Al Queda or worse. Janet Reno is still a hero to these people. The Branch Davidians were dangerous right-wing extremists, after all. Burning was too good for them :rolleyes:

If the Davidians had been members of a drug gang who had engaged in multiple murders, the enitre Left would be lining up outside the state prison to protest their execution. They'd be nominating them for Nobel prizes. But right wing Christian gun owners? From Texas no less? To most liberals, killing them arouses no more conscience than exterminating termites (with an environmentally-friendly pesticide, naturally).

joab
January 24, 2006, 06:19 PM
The AGENTS died in vain. They probably thought they were doing something good.
Every death that day served as a wake up for the American public, too bad we just rolled over and scratched our butts and allowed the press to paint all militia groups as anti government terrorists

But I'm glad that happened in Montana.Actually the Freemen turned out to be a bunch of criminals, but it's the thought that counts

Carl N. Brown
January 24, 2006, 06:43 PM
Operation: Trojan Horse ("Go" signal: Showtime) has been
treated here before in a discussion of Waco: The Rules
of Engagement:

THR > Social Situations > Legal and Political >
WACO the rules of engagement

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