Enough Already!: Abuse of the 9mm


PDA






Mad Magyar
January 23, 2006, 12:12 PM
ďIf you prefer the 9mm, be my guest, but the facts show that on average the smaller cartridge is not as good a man stopper as the .45ACP.Ē
Iím tired of these gun writers maligning the 9mm. PLEASE: NO CALIBER WARS!
Iím sick of those too, just a defense of a good round.
Just a few facts: there are over 25 countries around the world, including the U.S., that accept the 9mm as their standard military cartridge. These countries have armed forces of over 13 million troopers. The notion that the 9mm Parabellum is not adequate to the killing of men is going to come as a dreadful shock to these 13 million users! I canít prove this at the moment, but I suspect the vast majority of soldiers killed during
WW11 had as their demise the 9mm, at least in the European theatre.
Yes, Iíve read E. Marshallís studies, Hatcherís stopping power scales, FBI gelatin/carcass tests, etc, and I consider Jeff Cooper a mentor. And yes, in all honesty, I have .45ís a .40 and consider them to be great rounds. But for ďPeteís sakeĒ, writers: quit bashing the 9mmÖ.:banghead:

If you enjoyed reading about "Enough Already!: Abuse of the 9mm" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!
AirForceShooter
January 23, 2006, 12:16 PM
In my travels through life I can attest to 2 things.

1. the .45 will kill people.
2. the 9mm will kill people.

AFS

pcf
January 23, 2006, 12:28 PM
I heard froma friend of a friend, who has a friend that's a cop, that knows a sherriff's deputy, who once new a guy in the Navy, that once talked to a BUDs dropout at Norfolk, who read on the internet about a Delta Force Recon PJ on seel team nine. He shot this badguy 28 times in the chest with his 9mm H&K SOCOM Tactical Recon pistol. The badguy laughed and apparently the diminutive bullet holes gave the badguy superhuman strength. Fortunately Chuck Norris showed up with a 45 and shot at the badguy. Chuck Norris missed (Chuck Norris' specialty is round kicks not shooting .45s), but the shockwave from the .09" larger bullet was so intense that the badguy was ripped in half and his ghost was seen running away through the streets of Istanbul.

I don't know which is better, but if you value your life carry Chuck Norris with a loaded 45 and a roundkick at the ready.

gudel
January 23, 2006, 01:45 PM
those who says 9mm is weak, will you be willing to take couple in the chest from me, say from 10 yards? we'll see if you drop right away.

poppy
January 23, 2006, 01:59 PM
Mad I canít prove this at the moment, but I suspect the vast majority of soldiers killed during
WW11 had as their demise the 9mm, at least in the European theatre.
If I were to guess what cartridge caused the most deaths, it would be one from a rifle or machine gun, not a pistol. Any WWII experts out there? poppy

Lone Star
January 23, 2006, 02:02 PM
Item 1.) A person whom I know very well has killed eight men with 9mm's, two with his issued M-9 Beretta, the rest with a Browning Hi-Power. All ammo was USGI ball M882.

All eight died promptly, as far as he knows. He couldn't check a couple as he had to immediatly exit the area, under fire from other jihadists. He probably didn't put more than three bullets in any one man. Some were hit peripherally before being struck in the center/upper body. The hits that should have put them down, did. That was with FMJ ball ammo. Good JHP bullets would porobably have done even better.

Item 2.) I knew a man who died a year or so ago, who was a principal architect of the Rhodesian police anti-terrorist campaign before that fair country turned into today's Zimbabwe. He had access to many shooting reports, and said that the 9mm usually worked quite well.

I know exceptions do occur, but that is what they are: exceptions. Many involve individuals on narcotics, who would be hard to stop with anything in a normal handgun.

And that's my two cents' worth.

Lone Star

Biker
January 23, 2006, 02:05 PM
Someone has to say it...A 9mm may expand, but a .45 never shrinks.:neener:
Biker

bobaloo
January 23, 2006, 02:07 PM
Funny how people who think a 5-shot 38 Special is an acceptable carry gun will mock a 13 round 9mm. Been doing a lot of looking lately and it seems to me that the ballistics of a modern 9mm round are every bit as good or better than the 38 Special, just in a much smaller package.

mtnbkr
January 23, 2006, 02:13 PM
Iím tired of these gun writers maligning the 9mm. PLEASE: NO CALIBER WARS!Iím sick of those too, just a defense of a good round.
Boo effin hoo. I'm sick of your defense of the 9mm. :p

those who says 9mm is weak, will you be willing to take couple in the chest from me, say from 10 yards? we'll see if you drop right away.
I wouldn't let you shoot me in the pinky with a bb gun. What does that say about the bb gun? Nothing. It says I won't accept stupid challenges.

Chris

Biker
January 23, 2006, 02:17 PM
That's true, bobaloo, but if I can carry a 13 round 9mm, I can carry something similar in size and weight in a .40 or .45. Having said that, I own 'nines' in the Glock 19 and 26 configurations, but for the same trouble, I can carry my Glock 23 or 27 in .40.
I like my .38 snubby because I can just throw it in my pocket and I'm good to go with no safety worries.
Biker

Mad Magyar
January 23, 2006, 02:21 PM
Poppy, you could be right...I know that the German Wehrmacht ground forces, Finns, Belgians, Italians, Portuguese, Dutch, Bulgarians, Hungarians, Rumanians, all fired the nine millimeter. IIRC, the German submachine gun ammo needs to be included. Again, I am only surmising...:scrutiny:
Again, not argueing about the .45 not being a stopper; just that the 9 has a history also....:)

000Buck
January 23, 2006, 02:40 PM
Two arguments we always see in these threads:
1. If ??mm/??cal is so weak, would you let me shoot you in the chest with it?
WHAT?! So that means anything you dont think is quite up to snuff to carry means you are willing to get shot with it for an experiment? Do you carry a .22 caliber pocket gun? NO?! Can I shoot you with one?

2. Well, lots of people were killed in this or that war with ??mm/??cal, so it must be great.
Not really, I am sure WWII could have been fought with .22 caliber weapons, there would have just been a whole lot more shooting before battles were over...there would still be lots of dead people. That doesnt make me want to carry a .22 caliber.

Im not saying anything against 9mm, I carry it primarily and think it is probably 99% as deadly as 45, but the arguments being made are too simple.

akanotken
January 23, 2006, 02:43 PM
I heard froma friend of a friend, who has a friend that's a cop, that knows a sherriff's deputy, who once new a guy in the Navy, that once talked to a BUDs dropout at Norfolk, who read on the internet about a Delta Force Recon PJ on seel team nine. He shot this badguy 28 times in the chest with his 9mm H&K SOCOM Tactical Recon pistol. The badguy laughed and apparently the diminutive bullet holes gave the badguy superhuman strength. Fortunately Chuck Norris showed up with a 45 and shot at the badguy. Chuck Norris missed (Chuck Norris' specialty is round kicks not shooting .45s), but the shockwave from the .09" larger bullet was so intense that the badguy was ripped in half and his ghost was seen running away through the streets of Istanbul.

I don't know which is better, but if you value your life carry Chuck Norris with a loaded 45 and a roundkick at the ready.

Funniest post I've seen in a long time!

Nasty, hitech 9mm rounds have my vote, my preferred carry is p99. Cuz I shoot it well.

But, let me know if chuck has any time on his calendar, I'd like to take him to my next 3gun match to use as my weapon. Don't know what class they'll stick me in tho.

Marshall
January 23, 2006, 02:54 PM
I was speaking with man that lived next door to me that was shot with a 9mm and .45ACP, both FMJ. He told me the 9mm hurt him, he said the feeling was like a sting but worse. He said the .45ACP knocked him into shock and then unconscious because of the shear force he felt. Neither killed him though. I am just passing this story on for the heck of it, he could have been lying but he had no reason to do so. I'm not sure it means anything except that he's one lucky man. It made an impression on me though.

R.H. Lee
January 23, 2006, 02:58 PM
Both are anemic compared to any centerfire rifle caliber. That said ™, humans aren't all that tough. Both will penetrate deeply enough to be effective self defense rounds. A doctor probably couldn't differentiate between the wound channels. It's an either/or IMO. They're interchangeable and one has no particular advantage over the other.

I was speaking with man that lived next door to me that was shot with a 9mm and .45ACP, both FMJ. He told me the 9mm hurt him, he said the feeling was like a sting but worse. He said the .45ACP knocked him into shock and then unconscious because of the shear force he felt. I'd bet that bullet placement had a lot more to do with that than caliber.

Inline_6
January 23, 2006, 03:09 PM
These caliber wars are a waste of time... ALL handguns are weak and ineffective. Period. :banghead:

A few years at the National Tactical Invitational in PA, one of the lectures was on wound ballistics, complete with photos. The person giving the briefing is a former active duty Green Beret medic (18D), now a reserve GB and a full on M.D. He did his residency in NYC patching up bullet holes and knife wounds in the ER.

The pics he showed of various people being shot with various calibers in various locations of the body... all of them went home that day, the next day, an hour later, etc. His last pic was of a person who was shot with 00B from a 12 guage. He died.

Let's all be realistic... handguns are defensive and are only carried bcz they are light, small, easily concealed and in general convenient to have with you. If you know trouble is coming, or are going into an area where there will be (or could be) trouble... better take a long gun.

antsi
January 23, 2006, 03:12 PM
I heard froma friend of a friend, who has a friend that's a cop, that knows a sherriff's deputy, who once new a guy in the Navy, that once talked to a BUDs dropout at Norfolk, who read on the internet about a Delta Force Recon PJ on seel team nine. He shot this badguy 28 times in the chest with his 9mm H&K SOCOM Tactical Recon pistol. The badguy laughed and apparently the diminutive bullet holes gave the badguy superhuman strength. Fortunately Chuck Norris showed up with a 45 and shot at the badguy. Chuck Norris missed (Chuck Norris' specialty is round kicks not shooting .45s), but the shockwave from the .09" larger bullet was so intense that the badguy was ripped in half and his ghost was seen running away through the streets of Istanbul.

LOL. Classic. :D

antsi
January 23, 2006, 03:15 PM
I can’t prove this at the moment, but I suspect the vast majority of soldiers killed during
WW11 had as their demise the 9mm, at least in the European theatre.
:

Not going to argue with you about 9mm effectiveness - I certainly would not feel under gunned carrying a 9mm.

But I think you're off on WWII casualties. IIRC, most combat fatalities in the ETO were due to artillery (incl. mortars). For firearms, machine guns take the prize in most analyses.

nero45acp
January 23, 2006, 03:20 PM
I found this picture recently on another forum. (I'm sorry I don't know who to credit for it.) Anyway, the comparison is telling in that size-wise there really isn't all that much difference between the three. IMHO the 9mm is a perfect balance of size, power, and controllability.

nero9mm;)

bakert
January 23, 2006, 03:28 PM
I carry either a .45 or a 9MM at times and feel well protected with either. Some times I even carry a small snubbie .38. Some people just cannot shoot any kind of .45 auto well but do OK with a 9MM or a .38. With today's bullets and loads the 9MM has some big teeth. Carry the gun you can shoot the best and don't worry about other's comments. A hit with a 9MM or even a .38 is much more effective than a little wind from a passing .45 slug.

Thain
January 23, 2006, 03:35 PM
Guns don't kill people, bullets do. ;)

A lot of people complain that the US went to the 9mm to appease NATO... Funny that they never assume NATO did some research before picking that round.

9mm is a fine round, so is pretty much any pistol round. But the plain truth is all pistols are short range, inaccurate, weak, and hard to control... But I can't fit a FA-MAS in a pocket holster.

MCgunner
January 23, 2006, 03:41 PM
Funny how people who think a 5-shot 38 Special is an acceptable carry gun will mock a 13 round 9mm. Been doing a lot of looking lately and it seems to me that the ballistics of a modern 9mm round are every bit as good or better than the 38 Special, just in a much smaller package.

Actually, +P 9mm ballistics out of short barrels compare favorably with .357 magnums out of 2" snubbies. The 9 is a far more efficient round in smaller weapons.

I think for CCW, to most of us, the size and weight of the gun are far more important than the size and weight of the bullet it fires. Energies of .45 and 9mm are equal for standard loads and the 9 is chambered in the G26, the Kel Tec P11, the baby Kahrs, the Taurus Millenniums, buns that are far easier to carry than even compact .45s and carry more firepower to boot! You even have POCKETABLE nines!

So, you can be a paranoid big bullet guy like the author of whatever article you cut that statement out of. Go ahead, if you think it's worth it, tote that 40 ounce firearm to your heart's content. I have plenty of confidence in my firearms. I quit listening to the journalist "experts" a long time ago. Some of those journalists actually agree with me, though. They tend to be the ones that carry every day. None of 'em seem to much agree with each other, so why would I want to take their advice on anything? I'll make up my own mind, thanks, where caliber is concerned and what works for me in firearms. I don't need the advice of a journalist.

I am a part time journalist, BTW. Fortunately, not a firearms related journalist. :D

Manedwolf
January 23, 2006, 03:46 PM
“If you prefer the 9mm, be my guest, but the facts show that on average the smaller cartridge is not as good a man stopper as the .45ACP.”
I’m tired of these gun writers maligning the 9mm. PLEASE: NO CALIBER WARS!
I’m sick of those too, just a defense of a good round.
Just a few facts: there are over 25 countries around the world, including the U.S., that accept the 9mm as their standard military cartridge. These countries have armed forces of over 13 million troopers. The notion that the 9mm Parabellum is not adequate to the killing of men is going to come as a dreadful shock to these 13 million users! I can’t prove this at the moment, but I suspect the vast majority of soldiers killed during
WW11 had as their demise the 9mm, at least in the European theatre.
Yes, I’ve read E. Marshall’s studies, Hatcher’s stopping power scales, FBI gelatin/carcass tests, etc, and I consider Jeff Cooper a mentor. And yes, in all honesty, I have .45’s a .40 and consider them to be great rounds. But for “Pete’s sake”, writers: quit bashing the 9mm….:banghead:


And the military can't (on paper, at least) use the highly effective +P hollowpoints that've saved a lot of LEO lives in the US. I've always felt that the 9mm was a little slighted because in combat, they've been limited to the FMJ.

pcf
January 23, 2006, 04:04 PM
10. After the Infamous FBI Miami shootout the FBI determined that bullets that do penetrate deep enough to damage vital organs.....well......they don't pentrate deep enough to damage vital organs (tax payer funded study right there). This only applies to 9mm handguns...cause....duh....a 40 or 45 can penetrate anything.
9. The M9 service pistol chambered for the 9x19mm cartridge is weak and ineffective. The Sig Sauer P226 was created through divine inspiration, and its power, reliability, and stopping power is God's gift to the Navy SEALs.
8. reference my above story
7. NYPD adopted the diminutive 9mm cartridge because the previous .38Spcl sidearm was too powerful and gave the Police an unfair advantage over criminals.
6. The standard military ball round has a muzzle velocity of 8fps and is known to bounces off of the air after leaving the muzzle.
5. The SAS continues to issue the 9mm Browning HiPower, so they always have a good reason to go to hand-to-hand, instead of using a pistol.
4. The 9mm cartridge is so weak it can't even blow up the all plastic Glock pistol. Compared to the more poweful .40 Glocks, of which 7 out of every 5 produced explode, permanently maiming or killing the shooter.
3. If swallowed 9mm bullets are easier to pass than .40 or .45 caliber bullets.
2. I read it on the internet.
1. The average male that takes these threads seriously has a penis the size of a 40S&W or 45acp cartridge, and has to compensate by claiming the 40/45 is better than anything else, allowing him to believe that he actually has something worth bragging about.

MCgunner
January 23, 2006, 04:27 PM
7. NYPD adopted the diminutive 9mm cartridge because the previous .38Spcl sidearm was too powerful and gave the Police an unfair advantage over criminals.


They came up with that in NYC, did they? :D :D :D :D :D Sounds about right. ROFLMAO!

jeepmor
January 23, 2006, 04:46 PM
:rolleyes:

I chose the 45 for the simple reason that a corrections officer stated an observation in a forum, maybe this one, can't recall for sure. I'm paraphrasing here, but will quote the statement for clarity.

"This place is full of guys with bullet holes in them, predominantly 9mm holes. However, there are no guys in here with .45 caliber holes in them, they don't seem to make it to the jail, they typically go straight to the morgue. For what it's worth, that's my observation as a corrections officer"

This is why I own a 45 and not a 9mm. Oops, bought a 9mm for my wife since she stated the 45 kicked a bit much for her liking. We both have compact Mil Pro Taurus models, so they are small and carry more recoil than a full size pistol as everyone knows. She likes gun and I like mine, so I guess I'm on both sides of the fence here.

The primary advantage of the 45 is heavier ammo. Heavier and bigger breaks bones more easily and causes more trauma, stopping the potential assailant faster. However, to play this whup it out "stand in front of 9mm" crap, you guys, sheesh, is this high school fellas? Each round is effective, I don't want to ever be on the receiving end of anything more than a paintball gun or airsoft, and neither do any of you.

jeepmor

Vex
January 23, 2006, 04:50 PM
If all rounds are equal, then we should all carry .25's.

Think about it.

.45 - .10 = 9mm (.355)
9mm - .10 = .25

If Sig made a P226 in .25, it could have like a 30 round capacity for those extended gun fights, almost no recoil for that second or third follow up shot, and still be as effective as a 9mm or 45... because we all know, caliber doesn't mean squat. :rolleyes:

Dr.Rob
January 23, 2006, 04:51 PM
I abuse my 9mm regularly... grip bluing is worn off, shoot all manner of dirty ammo out of it, throw the magazines on the ground, bang it into obstacles (not intentionally mind you)... take it out in the rain/snow/mud etc.

If you don't abuse it a little how do you know it's worth a damn?

FEG PJK-9HP first model clone.

Biker
January 23, 2006, 04:52 PM
If all rounds are equal, then we should all carry .25's.

Think about it.

.45 - .10 = 9mm (.355)
9mm - .10 = .25

If Sig made a P226 in .25, it could have like a 30 round capacity for those extended gun fights, almost no recoil for that second or third follow up shot, and still be as effective as a 9mm or 45... because we all know, caliber doesn't mean squat. :rolleyes:
Gotta hand it to ya there.
Biker

McCall911
January 23, 2006, 05:06 PM
Sorry, Mad Magyar, but it's turning into another 9mm vs .45 caliber war.

:banghead:

garrettwc
January 23, 2006, 05:07 PM
9mm is a fine round, so is pretty much any pistol round. But the plain truth is all pistols are short range, inaccurate, weak, and hard to control... But I can't fit a FA-MAS in a pocket holster.

+1.

If I know I'm going to a fight I'll bring a rifle, or better yet I'll just not go. The handgun is a weapon of convenience. With quality ammo, the difference isn't worth debating.

The ammo and the handgun you choose are at most 10% of the solution. Find a gun you shoot well and that is reliable, then feed it good ammo. After you have that accomplished, you can stop fretting about the tools, and spend your time on the 90% of tactics and training that will really save your life.

Vex
January 23, 2006, 05:10 PM
Find a gun you shoot well and that is reliable, then feed it good ammo. After you have that accomplished, you can stop fretting about the tools, and spend your time on the 90% of tactics and training that will really save your life.

I wonder if they make "Blended Metal" rounds for a .25acp...?

otomik
January 23, 2006, 05:19 PM
vex, i see where you're coming from, but .25 (or anything not metric) is a cowboy cartridge by international standards, what you really need is a civilized european cartridge like 5.45x18mm, the Drotik pistol has a 24 round flush fit mag of .20 caliber ammunition. The russians, realizing that caliber means nothing concentrating on getting as many tiny bits of lead downrange as quickly as possible (1700 rounds per minute), so it's a machine pistol, and a stable all-steel one with porting. controllable, so you can shoot it with your pinky extended like you're holding a wine glass ;)

http://www.enemyforces.com/firearms/drotik.htm

stan bulmer has a "payload" bullet that detonates in a energy dumping tactical thermonuclear explosion when it senses pig flesh or an iraqi buttocks.

Johnny Guest
January 23, 2006, 05:25 PM
Closed.

If you enjoyed reading about "Enough Already!: Abuse of the 9mm" here in TheHighRoad.org archive, you'll LOVE our community. Come join TheHighRoad.org today for the full version!