[braindead0]

I'm on the lookout for a 9mm carbine (3-gun matches), I've pretty much written off the hi-point due to reported problems and the inability to get mags larger than 10 round.

So, I've heard that the Sub-2000 is perhaps a bit small for the larger folks (I'm 6'2"..pretty long in the arm). But my wife would be using it as well, and she's 5'4"...

I kinda like the PC9, but I also like the sub-2000's abilty to fold up (origimi rifle ;-).

I know I can get full-cap mags for both.. Any other things I should consider for deciding between these two?

Thanks.

[USGuns]

Hi Braindead0,
I only have the Sub2000 and so can only testify about it.
I can tell you it's a kick in the pants to shoot. Reasonably accurate, minimal recoil (good for the wife), affordable, US-made (as is the PC9), has great customer support and is fun. For me, it's a great home-defense rifle in that it's relatively short, foldable for storage, shoots a pistol cartridge and in those high-stress situations is easier to aim/shoot IMHO.

They have a stock extension that you could use and take off when the wife wants to shoot:
http://www.kel-tec.com/new_page_5.htm

Another good site to get info. on the Sub2000 is KTOG.com:
http://www.ktog.org/vbulletin/forumdisplay.php?forumid=14

[braindead0]

A 1" butt extension is a joke as far as I'm concerned.. not gonna make much difference, I'd need 4" or more! ;-).

I fired an MP-5S that had a pretty short stock on it, and I don't have much trouble 'choking up' on it.. so I'm not too worried about that. Haven't actually put my hands on one yet though.

I've been to ktog, but that's not the place to ask about the pros and cons and the pc-9.. I don't think... Besides, I'm already registered on 150 or so sites, I'm not doing another one!:banghead:

[762x51]

braindead0:

Sent you a PM last week regarding the PC9.

[braindead0]

I know, but they seem to be a 'dime a dozen' out here.. I'm seeing them NIB for around $350..

And I'm still not 100% sold on the PC9...thus this thread.

[ajacobs]

I have a pc9 and a pc4 and I am very happy with them. MY pc4 takes glock mags. my pc9 wears a c-more sight on a jack weigand rail and has surefire light. It is heavy for what it is a took a little work to get my non factory mags 100% but it is a blast to shoot.

[esldude]

Hey was a PC9 for $300 on the selling section of this very site a couple days ago. See if the guy still has it.

I own both the PC9 and sub2000. I really like both. Both have digested a few hundred rounds with no malfunction. Both are a blast to shoot with recoil not much more than a rimfire. And both get kinda dirty being a blowback design. Then again, I am used to cleaning bolt actions and semi-auto's are just more aggravating to clean.

Accuracy seems similar. Still it is easy to just stand up and put 10 rounds all on a 8 inch paper plate at 100 yards with either carbine.

The Ruger is more substantial. Though still on the short side, so would likely fit your wife just fine. I think it is 34 inches overall. I have a red dot on mine. With so little recoil, and a red dot you can get on target easily and almost as quickly as you can pull the trigger make accurate hits.

The Keltec of course folds up neatly. The main ergonomic problems are the sights and the bolt knob. The sights are peep sights, with the front sight being like something you see on paint ball guns. But it works well. They are too low however. You have to either hold the rifle with the bottom of the butt plate near the top of your shoulder and fire. Or what I do, put the butt plate out on my shoulder joint nearly on my upper arm. Recoil is not enough to bother you. Then I lean over my head and sights line up just right. Works much better than it sounds. Now the bolt knob is rather stiff. Is what you use to chamber a round. It is small and too stiff for most women. Can be helped a little by rubber coating with the stuff you coat plier handles with. The fold up feature makes it easy to clean the barrel from the chamber end.

Main feature I don't like about the Ruger is the magazine hangs out in the way and doesn't seem sturdy. Wish Ruger had made a housing around it. Though in fact this has never been a problem. One of the nice things about the Keltec is the Glock magazines slide into the grip just like on a Glock.

So I really like them both. The Ruger is more substantial and all things considered for both you and your wife probably better ergonomically. Ruger costs more however, and the Keltec is darn good itself. Just a little less polished while being a little neater and looking lots cooler. Folks always seem to ask questions about the Keltec at the shooting range.

I am interested in what the soon to be released Beretta CX4 carbine will be like. Though all indications are it will be rather pricey even compared to the Ruger.

[braindead0]

The one I saw for $300 was at a local shop, probably should have snatched it up..it was gone today.

Thanks for the info, I was hoping this would be easier but it sounds like it will not ;-)

[esldude]

Here is the one I was writing about in my post.

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?s=&threadid=16815

[762x51]

Every one that I see online is selling for in the mid $400's. I think it's quite fair.

[braindead0]

It all depends on the market, they are listing them new at a local shop for $349.99.

[Bobarino]

i just bought a Sub 2000 a few weeks ago. only have 200 rounds through it so far but its very fun to shoot, draws a lot of questions at the range, is more accurate than i am, and i can take it in a backpack. you can get the Scherer 33 rounds mags for $60 new from some places, plus 17 round Glock mags, although they are expensive. the rifle is super easy to disassemble and clean. the trigger leaves a little to be desired, but you get what you pay for. it is a single action trigger, but its got a lot of take-up and is fairly stiff at 6-7 pounds. i'm also 6'2" with long arms and it feels a little small but certainly not uncomfortable. the 1 inch extension would be a good purchase for you. the bolt handle is better if you take a piece of rubber fuel line and slip it over the handle. makes it more comfortable. the spring is very strong but it was designed for +P ammo. i've been told you can get a weaker one from Kel-Tec if you don't shoot +P. you can find them for about $250 on the various gun sale websites too. the downsides: its cheap and you get what you pay for. the fit and finish is good but not great. looking down the barrel you can see some very minor imperfections in the metal/barrel. it will not feed Federal's 135gr "personal defense" ammo. i switched to Gold Dots and its fine. i've had one misfeed in 200 rounds. not sure why. no big deal really, but i don't have enough confidence in it yet to rely on it for a home defense wepaon, but thats not why i bought it. it's just meant to be a plinking rifle. might do in a pinch though. i don't think you can go wrong with either one, but the Kel-Tec is cheaper, lighter, folds in half and its just kinda cool.

Bobby

[braindead0]

Sounds like I may just get a PC9, we'll be shooting it in 3-gun matches..and I suspect the PC9 might prove a wee bit more forgiving in regards to ammo..perhaps easier to clear if it jams as well.

[COHIBA]

if you drill a small hole in the front of beretta M9/92F mags, right between the two catch holes, they will work flawlessly in the PC9.