WI: we may have a traitor on CCW. What to do?


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Monkeyleg
January 23, 2006, 07:34 PM
It's possible one of the Democrats who voted for the bill may already be saying that he or she will not vote to override.

Any suggestions on tactics?

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Preacherman
January 23, 2006, 07:35 PM
A plentiful supply of tar and feathers comes to mind... :fire:

cosine
January 23, 2006, 07:58 PM
A plentiful supply of tar and feathers comes to mind... :fire:
Mercy and forgiveness, Preacherman, mercy and forgiveness... :p :D

Seriously, this is extremely disheartening. :mad: I've been hoping that Wisconsin would eventually get CCW, so that when I come of age I would be able to exercise my rights without becoming a criminal.

jnojr
January 23, 2006, 08:04 PM
It's possible one of the Democrats who voted for the bill may already be saying that he or she will not vote to override.

Any suggestions on tactics?

Ask them why, and then do your best to counter whatever the "reason" is, and do whatever you can to show them votes hang in the balance. See if you can get any pro-gun Democratic voices in that lawmakers district to speak up.

fiveoboy01
January 23, 2006, 08:07 PM
Well, I doubt that dousing said legislator with facts about CCW in various other states will do any more good. I'm sure Zien and Gunderson, along with various pro-ccw groups have done enough of that.

I'd be fairly confident that Doyle is attempting arm-twisting tactics again. Doesn't anyone realize that Doyle is under a microscope right now concerning various fund-raising issues? Can't anyone see that he's virtually guaranteed a loss in the next election, and that attaching your star to him will make you look like a loser, as well?

About all I can see that could be done is barraging with e-mails and phone calls. This SHOULD be about the rep's constituents, but I'm sure it's not. I'd go so far as to say that whoever you're talking about, Dick, has already made up their mind. I hate to talk of doom and gloom but I just can't help but remember what happened with sherman. The utter and absolute BS in politics infuriates me. How can you vote for something, then vote against it????:cuss: :banghead:

Fletchette
January 23, 2006, 08:08 PM
Find out who it is and make it very well known. Politicians need to fully understand that the gun rights folk do not take kindly to hypocrites and back-stabbers.

Wiley
January 23, 2006, 08:12 PM
If the person is known, clog their e-mail, fax and, phone with messages.

Constituents: Demand passage.
Non-constituents: request passage.

There is little else that can be done until they come up for re-election.

I hope you can make them see the light!

mpthole
January 23, 2006, 08:15 PM
Make it know that the people will have their rights - even if it means (gasp!) open-carry! Let them (the congres-criters) understand that open-carry is already a slam-dunk and if they don't want folks walking around with a gun strapped to their hip in plain view, then they'd better get on the bandwagon and pass concealed carry.

:cuss:
:fire:

Jeff Timm
January 23, 2006, 08:17 PM
It's a Democrat-Communist, and you expect them to do ANYTHING right?

You allow Democrats to take over the Govenment, what do you expect?

Geoff
Who believes there are no legally elected Democrats. :fire:

DonP
January 23, 2006, 08:19 PM
Then go downhill, ... if you have to.

The potential "switcher" is getting wobbly for one of severalk reasons, some you can deal with, some you can't.

1. They have succumbed to the Brady and media pressure on "guns in school parking lots, shoot-outs in the Piggly Wiggly" etc. hype.

2. Doyle, or more likely his "people", have promised something in return for supporting his veto. Judgeship, committee chairmanship, campaign support in time or $$$, Membership in a country club etc.

3. They have been pressured by a phone in campiagn by the Brady crew.

I think if it's #1 you can reason with them and show that "their greatest fears" have not come to pass in any other state where it has been legalized.

If it's #2 you have to rudely point out that Doyle has to be in office to deliver on anything he promises and the local and national forces opposing him, on issues far beyond CCW are very impressive. Going with Doyle, who's re-election is a gamble at this point may not be a chance they want to take.

If it's #3 you may have to mount your own call in/write in/stop in program, preferably including some local cops, in uniform, to offset the chiefs making noise.

The bottom line on most of this is that gun owners have very long memories and vote more regularly than just about any other voting bloc, comparable to the AARP people. No elected official in their right mind (there's a qualification for ya!) really wants to tick off a major, regularly voting and contributing bloc.

Good luck!

denfoote
January 23, 2006, 08:24 PM
Do you have recall in WI??

If so, start a recall campaign against them.
Let then know that if they vote for override, it will stop. If not, it will continue with the possibility of them being removed from office!!

FireBreather01
January 23, 2006, 08:30 PM
Are there any parliamentary tricks the Republicans can use to their advantage? Can they schedule the vote with short notice when one or more dems is out of town??? At this point I would support any political trickery to match Doyle's.

fiveoboy01
January 23, 2006, 08:30 PM
Do you have recall in WI??

If so, start a recall campaign against them.
Let then know that if they vote for override, it will stop. If not, it will continue with the possibility of them being removed from office!!

We do have recalls here, but I don't know how successful they've been. I know "Mayor Dave" had a recall attempt launched against him, and it failed.

The time wouldn't be there anyways, it appears that override attempts in the Assembly and Senate will happen by the end of this week.

MrTuffPaws
January 23, 2006, 08:39 PM
I love it here: Democrats are DUMB!!! HURRRRR!!!!:banghead:

Did she state why she voted for the measure and might not vote for the override? I am currious to hear her reasoning.

denfoote
January 23, 2006, 08:41 PM
We do have recalls here, but I don't know how successful they've been. I know "Mayor Dave" had a recall attempt launched against him, and it failed.

The time wouldn't be there anyways, it appears that override attempts in the Assembly and Senate will happen by the end of this week.

It does not have to finish.
The task is to put pressure on this traitor.
All that needs to be done is to take out the petitions and start gathering signatures!! Schedule a big press conference on the day you file for the recall. Have a bunch of supporters ready to sign in front of the cameras. All that needs to be done, at this point, is to let the Demonrat know that there will be repercussions for his actions!! Flood his office with e-mails and calls supporting his removal if he continues on his present course!! If you jump on it, it can be done!!

Trip20
January 23, 2006, 08:45 PM
Well that's just great friggen news. :fire:

fiveoboy01
January 23, 2006, 09:05 PM
I love it here: Democrats are DUMB!!! HURRRRR!!!!:banghead:

Did she state why she voted for the measure and might not vote for the override? I am currious to hear her reasoning.

How do we know it is a she? I don't see anything here that indicates who it is. My guess is Van Akkren but I can't be sure.

Trip20
January 23, 2006, 09:10 PM
Or it may be Hubler. IIRC, Dick has stated previously that for some reason he was nervous about her.

SIOP
January 23, 2006, 09:28 PM
It's not unusual for a politician to vote for something but to vote against an override in order to not buck a chief executive of the same party. I'd be surprised if you didn't lose more votes. But best of luck to you.

Raven Jeff 2003
January 23, 2006, 10:10 PM
Dick,

Perhaps you could be a little more vague.

Who is waffling?

What is your source?

What exactly did they say?

Details please!

These types of comments don't make you look important.

Jeff

AJ Dual
January 23, 2006, 10:27 PM
Remember my post about the '07 CCW "Revenge Bill" should someone "go Sherman" on us again this year?

http://www.thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2184049&postcount=9

It was only half in jest.

This is the best deal they're going to get, period.

There is every likelyhood that Doyle will be a one-termer, and we'll just pass whatever we like next year with a simple majority. The bill is pretty good this year, but with a simple majority, we could very well pass the most liberal carry bill in the nation next time...

They could credibly say that they voted for the PPA to get the most restrictions possible to "protect" thier constituency.

If the last-minute switch is due to bribery on the part of the Govenor, well, there may not be too much we can do about that, if it's actualy a "principled" stance against CCW, the above might just work.

The PPA will pass, it's just a matter of time.

My second idea is to have the NRA promise to spend ungodly amounts of cash to unseat whoever turns, and make good on that threat. I'm talking an over the top direct mail, billboard and TV campaign.

However, I have no idea how to get the NRA to turn the heat up higher than they already have.

My third is that the WCCA distributes Mark Belling's e-mail address @ WISN and we get the mailing list to mail-bomb him begging to give the PPA the "Gas Tax Treatment" when the time comes for the Assembly override. It might backfire, but there is an e-mail link right on the Mark Belling show page. We'd have to generate some significant volume to be heard.

Standing Wolf
January 23, 2006, 10:52 PM
Sooner or later, the cause of individual freedom will win in Wisconsin, as it will do in Nebraska, Kansas, and Iowa, too. Better this year than next, but better next year than never.

Parruthead
January 23, 2006, 11:28 PM
I've called all my freinds and family in the sheboygan area and asked them to write and or call Van Arrken. Hopefully this will help. Maybe you know somebody in one of the traitors district. Call them ask them to get hold of there rep and thank them for there vote.

Monkeyleg
January 24, 2006, 01:00 AM
Raven Jeff 2003, I'm not trying to look important. Frankly, I don't care how I look. I just want this done, and the bill to become law.

For the time being, I've been asked to not mention the legislator, until it can be determined whether this is a false alarm or not. It may take a day or two to determine that.

In the meantime, though, I was just asking for suggestions on how to react should the rumor be true. Folks from MN, MI, OH, MO, CO and NM have been though this meatgrinder before.

Any advice they might have is much welcomed.

fiveoboy01
January 24, 2006, 01:06 AM
Dick, is there a timeline yet for the override sessions??

Trip20
January 24, 2006, 01:20 AM
Dick, recently someone posted in one of your threads, about how a Texas legislator admitted he was wrong with regards to concealed carry. That with all of his fears, after voting against it because of the "rhetoric"... he was wrong. The reality that surfaced, did not mirror all of the fears and lies being spewed by the anti-cc folks.

Maybe someone could forward this info to the fence-sitter you cannot name.

Of course, this will only help if this is indeed a person who's changing their vote due to something they believe, instead of what is more than likely happen - political strong-arming, bribery, and the selling-out of WI gun owners.

Trip20
January 24, 2006, 01:34 AM
fiveoboy - I believe he stated in another thread that in two weeks we'll know the outcome of both senate and house.

TrapperReady
January 24, 2006, 01:35 AM
Perhaps instead of just forwarding the information, there might be someway for the gentleman in Texas to be convinced to call the fence-sitter in WI.

pete f
January 24, 2006, 01:35 AM
I was going to say mail a picture of the person in a compromising position, hack their computer and find out what they are looking at on the web, get copies of the last ten hotels they stayed and see if their spouse was with them....or see if they bought any in room porn..... l:what: I know i know we can't do that.


find some guy with a convincing marlon brando/Godfather imitation and say, we is going to make you an offer you can't refuse...

Old Fuff
January 24, 2006, 01:37 AM
Without asking for any names...;)

Who this particular legislator is makes a big difference, because how you react, and the way you react, depends on that person's strengths and weaknesses.

Is this someone that is likely to hunker down and stonewall if they are pressured? Or are they someone who might rather get gunowner support in the next election. Might they be in a position to be concerned about a grass-roots effort to unseat them?

Generally speaking they aren’t so likely be concerned about the issue, and the right or wrong of it, but rather what their vote will mean in the way of political consequences later – both good and bad.

You might possibly point out what happened in Missouri. The Democrats controlled the Governor’s Mansion, but not the Legislature. When the Republican–controlled Legislature passed a CCW bill the Governor vetoed it, and made a big splash of it. But following this he lost his own party’s primary, and when the 2004 elections were over, a Republican was elected Governor, and his party’s majority increases in the Legislature.

The CCW issue worked against the Democrats, and left them with no way to advance their agenda, or block attacks on it. The main reason they lost was because they thought the Kansas City and St. Louis vote would carry the day for them, and underestimated the rural vote. There are obvious parallels here with Wisconsin, and I would expect that a Democrat might be particularly concerned about history repeating itself.

If this Democrat is in a safe district you might point out that while you may not be able to touch him or her, you can go after others. If the party’s control is diminished anywhere all of the survivors will be affected. On way or another, you can reach them, and you will.

Politics is all about power, not legislation. Someone’s got it and wants to keep it. Someone else is out to take it away for themselves. You can guarantee that if this bill goes under there will be a backlash. If you lose now, they will loose later. The trick is to convince (whoever) this is the way it will be. On the other hand if they stand with you, you won’t forget it.

I wish you luck.

Monkeyleg
January 24, 2006, 01:56 AM
fiveoboy01, right now they're looking at a tentative date for the Senate override for this Thursday.

Assembly veto override was supposed to be next week.

We'll know in a couple of days if things are back on track or not.

TrapperReady
January 24, 2006, 02:10 AM
Dick - I don't know a ton of folks outside my area (both my senator and rep are firmly on-board), but I made a few phone calls tonight asking friends who are long-time WI residents to contact anyone they know in the swing districts.

Good luck and keep plugging at it. If Doyle can cut back-room deals, why can't the Republican leadership? I hear Sheboygan is looking for a spaceport.

Trip20
January 24, 2006, 10:46 AM
Dick, check out this post (http://thehighroad.org/showpost.php?p=2177586&postcount=52).

Hon. Jerry Paterson of Texas wrote on the Ten Year anniversary
of the Texas Conceald Handgun Law:

John Holmes, former Harris County district attorney, wrote to me
several years after the passage of the law.

“As you know, I was very outspoken in my opposition to the passage of
the Concealed Handgun Act. I did not feel that such legislation was in
the public interest and presented a clear and present danger to law
abiding citizens by placing more handguns on our streets. Boy was I
wrong. Our experience in Harris County , and indeed state-wide, has
proven my initial fears absolutely groundless.”

Glenn White, president of the Dallas Police Association, shared this view:

“I lobbied against the law in 1993 and 1995 because I thought it would
lead to wholesale armed conflict. That hasn't happened. All the horror
stories I thought would come to pass didn't happen. No bogeyman.
I think it's worked out well, and that says good things about the
citizens who have permits. I'm a convert.”

foghornl
January 24, 2006, 11:43 AM
Quoting from an earlier post...How can you vote for something, then vote against it????

Ask Sen. John Kerry how to do that.... :D :D :D :D :D

71Commander
January 24, 2006, 12:11 PM
Constituents: Demand passage.
Non-constituents: request passage.


Also remind her/him that if they have plans to run for a higher (national) office, the Non-constituents will become Constituents with a memory.

DANC48
January 24, 2006, 12:44 PM
In my opinion the posable flip flop has nothing to do with guns or ccw. It is about solidarity of the Democratic party and the ability of the minority party to sustain a Governor’s veto and maintain power.

I think it will probably be Steinbrink that would flip. If Doyle would get reelected, can he take a chance of alienating Doyle and the party and have all the bills in a heavily Democratic area (I94 rebuild etc) put on hold??

At this point all the talk about the issue will not convince him, only the chance of him not being reelected will make him stay the course.

Dolomite
January 24, 2006, 01:01 PM
I truly believe the route WI needs to take to get to AK style carry begins with getting a Shall-issue law on the books. I don’t care if it’s clean or perfect, we just need to get things rolling.

This week’s FAX to the D’s in the senate and Assy (not really how I feel about CCW, but I need to take my audience’s background into consideration):

Can I ask your opinion on a case the Wisconsin Supreme Court will be hearing in a few weeks?

The case is State v. Fisher:

(04AP2989-CR ‘Whether the concealed weapon statute can be enforced against a tavern owner who keeps a loaded gun in the glove compartment of his car for protection because he routinely makes large cash deposits in a high-crime neighborhood?’) - the central question to here seems to be how Article I, Section 25 of the Wisconsin Constitution affects Statute 941.23 (the current concealed weapon prohibition).

According to State v. Hamdan (and echoed by Attorney General Peggy Lautenschlager in a memo to WI Law Enforcement), the questions that need to be answered 'yes' before an individual can secure an affirmative constitutional defense against 941.23 are:

- Did the defendant’s interest in concealing the weapon to facilitate exercise of his or her right to keep and bear arms substantially outweigh the State’s interest in enforcing the concealed weapon statute in the given circumstance?
- Under the same circumstances, did the defendant lack a reasonable alternative to concealment while exercising his or her constitutional right to bear arms?

The answer to both questions appears to be yes after reading Fisher’s background. My question to you is: What shall this mean for the people of Wisconsin?

The Wisconsin Supreme Court did not strike down 941.23 in Hamdan. They did however come one vote away from doing just that. They instead clarified places and circumstances where CCW could not result in a conviction; our homes and businesses. Will they strike down 941.23 in Fisher? Maybe, maybe not. Will they further clarify the places and circumstances under which CCW is a reasonable exercise of our rights and extend that into our vehicles absent any training requirements or background check? Most likely – yes.

Time will tell of course – but until then, I am asking that you vote to support the Personal Protection Act, and give only those citizens that submit to the appropriate back ground checks as well as complete State mandated legal and safety training the right to protect themselves and their families.



Next week’s FAX (which I haven’t really written yet) kinda goes like this:

If the Governor’s veto is sustained, do you see any future for the PPA? Will it be reintroduced next session, and if so, do you believe the next version will carry less or more restrictions regarding permit holders?

What will the next version of the concealed carry bill look like if/when Governor Doyle loses his re-election attempt?

FireBreather01
January 24, 2006, 02:00 PM
I just called these 3 -Schneider, Gronemus, and Vruwink - and got 3 firm YES!!! votes for the override - I spoke with their staff, not directly to the Reps.

Van Akkeren's staff gave me this line - "because of the importance of the vote, Rep van Akkeren has decided not to announce his intentions until the vote".:banghead: hmmmmmmmmmm.....

I was unable to speak with anyone in Hubler's or Steinbrink's offices.

AJ Dual
January 24, 2006, 03:07 PM
Here is Mark Belling's public e-mail address from his homepage: markbelling@clearchannel.com

For those not familiar with SE WI radio, he has the #1 local radio program in the Milwaukee and SE corner of WI radio market. Proportional to population, it's one of the strongest local radio talk shows in the nation. He's now famous enough to be a regular guest host for Rush Limbaugh.

He is staunchly conservative, and the left has been whining in WI about the "talk radio" effect (mainly Mark Belling's show, and the second most popular show, Charlie Sykes) on recent pieces of legislation in WI. He has made several statements supportive of RKBA, gun ownership, CCW, and self-defense in the past, however, he has only given the passage of the PPA a moderate amount of coverage. I don't believe he's ever devoted a full hour to it.

Since this is his publicly posted e-mail, I'm sure it's full of sp@m and crud, but if a flood of e-mail begging him to cover the PPA makes it in, he might give it his full attention for the next two weeks, and it could well have an effect statewide. Even if your Assembly men or women are not the ones waffling, a torrent of calls for the PPA won't go unnoticed by all the legislators. His show can generate those calls.

I don't know if the WCCA/Monkelyeg will give out Mark Belling's e-mail or not in their e-mail alerts, so pass it along to anyone on any pro-gun forum, or that you know is pro gun. If they're outside WI, have them mention how they've listened to him as a Rush Limbaugh guest-host.

Again, this radio talk show host is PRO CCW, and PRO RKBA. He does NOT need convincing on the merits of the PPA. He just needs to be persuaded to give it some serious airtime on his show before the veto override.

Here is my e-mail:

Dear Mark and/or Mark Belling Show staff,

I know you are aware of the Governor's veto of Senator Zien's Personal Protection Act, that would allow the law-abiding citizens of Wisconsin with a background check and training, to carry firearms in public for lawful self defense.

I have heard your comments in favor of concealed carry licenses for Wisconsin several times in the past, and your frustration at how ridiculous it is that we are one of only four states left in the U.S. that do not issue such permits to anyone under any circumstances. The gun-owning community that believes in the right to self-defense is very grateful for all your staunch support in the past.

I also know that it is likely you are also aware of where the PPA stands right now, that the Senate veto override scheduled for later this week is close to certain as these things can be. And that the real battle is in the Assembly, where the purported votes to override are exactly at the 2/3rds supermajority needed to override the veto, but that one or more Democratic Assemblymen may be waffling.

We were in exactly the same boat at about this time last year, and Governor Doyle was successful in bribing Gary Sherman, a co-sponsor of the bill, with promises of campaign help, or a cushy state job should he not win re-election over his treason against lawful self-defense.

So I am imploring you, pleading, and begging you, to give the veto override the "WI Gas-Tax Talk-Radio Treatment", over the next few days so that those interested in defending themselves and their families may begin to do so with the most effective means available, just as the majority of the United States already enjoys.

Thank-you.

Sincerely

Mr. AJ Dual
Milwaukee WI
Etc. etc. etc.

tommytrauma
January 24, 2006, 03:09 PM
http://www.channel3000.com/news/6400637/detail.html

I wonder what this means as far as his ability to exert pressure, or his perceived need to be around to do so.

Trip20
January 24, 2006, 03:13 PM
Hopefully he's not so comfortable his veto will stand, that he feels a trip to Iraq is not a hinderance.

Trip20 - positively pessimistic. :cool: :(


Edit: Wait! He's going with Huckabee from Arkansas. Maybe Huck'll talk some sense into him regarding concealed carry!

Monkeyleg
January 24, 2006, 07:58 PM
OK, here's what happened: a guy called what he thought was Steinbrink's office, but actually called Assembly Minority Leader Kreuser's office. The staffer played along, and said that Steinbrink was going to vote no.

The called then emailed Senator Zien's office to let them know. Zien emailed a few people, including me. Somebody let it get out, and Vicki McKenna mentioned it on her radio show.

That's why we were scrambling to get information while trying to make sure Steinbrink's name wasn't mentioned. If Steinbrink had been aware of the rumor, then he wouldn't have anything to lose.

Steinbrink still won't commit, but this leaves the door open a bit. Van Akkeren is still considered the most likely to flip.

Trip20, I talked to Glenn White back in 2003, and asked if he would write a letter that we could circulate to law enforcement officials. His reply was polite, but pointed: "I don't want people messing with Texas ****, and I don't mess with Wisconsin ****."

fiveoboy01
January 24, 2006, 08:06 PM
What really gets my goat is that Van Akkeren won't commit one way or the other. Why shouldn't his constituents know where he stands?

I remember Sherman doing the same thing back in '03, something along the lines of "my constituents have no right to know how I'll vote, how dare they" or something like that.

Monkeyleg
January 24, 2006, 08:44 PM
Trip20, I just sent a short email off to Belling, asking that he give the concealed carry issue more time as we head into the overrides. I'm afraid, though, that if too many people email him it would just be an irritation.

It sounds like the Senate override is still on for Thursday, which means we're only going to have a handful of people show up on such short notice.

They're still talking about an Assembly veto override for next Tuesday. I'd rather they waited until they had a better handle on where Steinbrink and Van Akkeren are going to be.

Standing Wolf
January 24, 2006, 08:51 PM
Politics is all about power, not legislation. Someone’s got it and wants to keep it. Someone else is out to take it away for themselves.

Sad to say, Old Fluff, you're right. None of that is what the founding fathers had in mind for America.

Old Fuff
January 24, 2006, 09:03 PM
When you deal with these critters a bit it becomes clear what they are. :barf:

The Founding Fathers would weep... :cuss: :banghead:

Bruce H
January 24, 2006, 09:29 PM
If anybody flips, flip them back, hard.

cracked butt
January 24, 2006, 09:30 PM
Just heard this on the Belling show, a high ranking official in the Doyle administration was just indicted for fraud in procuring a state contract inflating the scores of and favoring a contractor that gave Doyle a fairly large campaign contribution. I don't think that this could have come at a better time.


The urinal sentinel makes a mention of it here: http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/jan06/386888.asp

fiveoboy01
January 24, 2006, 09:46 PM
Just heard this on the Belling show, a high ranking official in the Doyle administration was just indicted for fraud in procuring a state contract inflating the scores of and favoring a contractor that gave Doyle a fairly large campaign contribution. I don't think that this could have come at a better time.


The urinal sentinel makes a mention of it here: http://www.jsonline.com/news/state/jan06/386888.asp

Not exactly new news, but the newspapers have just started to give it some real attention in the past few days. Perhaps this timing is a good thing.

Trip20
January 24, 2006, 10:04 PM
MonkeyLeg
RE: Glen White
Wow... yes, he was quite clear. I wonder, though, if we can find his quote from a reputable source (http://www.ncpa.org/ba/ba324/ba324.html), or two (http://www.texasinsider.org/election_watch/Opinion_Jerry_Patterson_1_6_2006_Guns.htm), and bring that to the 6 dems attention...

RE: Belling
I have not contacted Belling. I'm sure enough of us have. Hopefully he'll devote some time to the cause, as we're in the 11th hour.

I'm going from encouraged to discouraged so often... I'm starting to feel Schizophrenic!!!

If the bill passes, I'll need to modify a mag pouch to hold my pills. :evil:

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