Is American mass electorate bunch of idiots?


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JesseJames
January 23, 2006, 09:31 PM
As of the past few years I've become very disillusioned with how politics works in America.
It's not just the scandals and corruption but with voter apathy.
People just don't talk politics anymore. Especially at the work place where we all spend most of our time. It's very diconcerting.
Even if I do touch on politics - especially the gun issue - you get very polarized responses. It's either guns are evil and should be banned or controlled outright; or I own dozens of guns and I'm waiting for someone to sneak in my house so I can blow them away with my AK-47. Yes, I actually worked with someone with that mindset. Needless to say, I kept an eye on him.
I've been told that most politicians have to appeal to voters on a 7th grade level and I can see that. People vote on their gut instincts rather than their intellect.
I believe George W. Bush is a good man and he believes he is doing the right thing but he does come across as buffoonish at times. And exactly how much cronyism is there?
I'm sick of the Democrats I'm sick of the Republicans. I'm sick of partisan politics. I WANT LEADERSHIP G*d damn it! I'm sick of stuffed shirts whose polished mannerisms mask mediocre character. I'm sick of voters with room temperature I.Q.s.
Why aren't there people like the founding fathers out there anymore? What would they think of what has become of us?
On one hand you have the effete Ivy League set who don't do anything but complain. Yeah, Al Franken, you and your ilk. I know a demagogue when I see one. Oh, and Bill O'Reilly can suck the wrong end of a goat too.
Then you have guys like the ones I work with who go to the casino, bitch how they lost their money and then get piss drunk on the weekends and wonder why their life sucks.

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Lone_Gunman
January 23, 2006, 09:34 PM
The Age of the Common Man is upon us.

CAnnoneer
January 23, 2006, 09:37 PM
The Age of the Common Man is upon us.

And Fear and Mediocrity shall reign supreme...

Which was the culture that maintained: "When the gods decide to destroy somebody, first they take away his reason"?

Standing Wolf
January 23, 2006, 09:41 PM
Why aren't there people like the founding fathers out there anymore? What would they think of what has become of us?

There are people of the same caliber today. Most are in business rather than politics: the rewards of success are clearer and more immediate, and the necessity of rubbing elbows with the likes of the Hero of Chappaquiddick are much lower.

I'm sure the founding fathers would be appalled to see how very British America has become.

Waitone
January 23, 2006, 09:43 PM
The electorate reflects our perceived realities. Things are good for now. 401-K is getting fat. House value is going up. Unemployment numbers (the numbers published by those who benefit by having low numbers) are down. Threat of terror incidents is low. Sorta reminds me of the closing days of Clinton's reign. Too good to be true and you just knew it hadda end.

So too now. If things are good why get upset. If it ain't broke, don't fix it.

Now just as soon as reality intrudes in any number of ways, the electorate will react and things will heat up. I too have noted general sleepiness now and I've seen it in the past. Not to worry.

Hockeydude
January 23, 2006, 10:12 PM
While I had some free time to myself, I was thinking of excuses for how Marxism can possibly work. The conclusion was simple. It can't:

How can the same people that think Bush is doing a good job be trusted to collectivelly run a buisness and take part in the government. If the public isn't smart enough to defend the constitution from things like the Patriot Act and illegal wire taps, then the idea of EVERYONE working together is ridiculous. There will always be the alpha male or female who takes advantage of the sheep.

This only strenghtened my belief in Libertarianism. The best possible way for humans to be happy is if they controlled their own destiny, instead of the government bureaucracy like we are conditioned to believe.

Kodiaz
January 23, 2006, 10:19 PM
Yeah I've been feeling the same way. There is very little difference between the Dems and Repubs. Now put aside abortion and gun control. I'm talking about the economy. Why are we sending our good middle class jobs to china we used to protect our workers with tariffs. Why do we continue to let in untold thousands of illegals into this country every day they depress wages. Real wages Americans built houses when it put you in the middle class. Americans cleaned hotel rooms and babysat when it could put pay your bills the reason these jobs aren't done by Americans is because the wages were depressed by illegals and also HN-1 visa immigrants. My cousin was telling me that a computer program writer now gets 20 grand a year this is a person with a college degree. Why because we ship this job to India and the ones we need here a brought in on the HN-1 visas. I'm a tradesman(A/C man) this has a direct effect on my wages. The way things are now I will never be able to own a home. This has an effect on you too though the epressed wages mean that the people coming into the trade are not as smart and talented as they used to be. You need to know a lot of stuff to be a good A/C man. On top of that when I was new to the trade you NEVER ever met a felon at your job. My company now has three felons that I know of working for the company. When I was learning the trade you never heard about a company hiring a felon much less a good company and I work for a nice company.

Dems or Repubs neither one is going to end this globalization crap and neither one is going to close the border or do something get people to stop hiring illegals. I will really have to force myself to go out and vote this year. When I think about it it just feels like a waste of time.

Oh well

gc70
January 23, 2006, 11:01 PM
As a whole, America's electorate reflects a very well-honed sense of self-interest. Members of Congress who get the most government money or jobs for their constituents are consistently re-elected, no matter how otherwise vile they may be. A principled member of Congress who does not wantonly help his constituents feed at the public trough is quickly replaced.

In the long run, America's mass electorate IS a bunch of idiots, but they are richer idiots in the short term.

CAnnoneer
January 23, 2006, 11:25 PM
I will really have to force myself to go out and vote this year. When I think about it it just feels like a waste of time.


Voting is never a waste of time. Vote third party. That is what I plan to do. If you stay home, Kane and Kodos laugh.

"I win every time I say 'no'." Sheridan (Babylon 5)

Kodiaz
January 23, 2006, 11:43 PM
Damn cannoneer now I'm voting again. Third party will at least send a message to those corrupt bastards.

KriegHund
January 23, 2006, 11:47 PM
Hope.

Is it a forlone word, or will it find its way again, guided by the path of the shreds of the constitution, out of the forest of apathy and into the field of freedom, where the fires of brute burn the village of civilization?

Basura Blanca
January 24, 2006, 12:55 AM
Third party will at least send a message to those corrupt bastards.

I don't cast my so-called "third party" vote simply to effect message delivery.
It is, rather, my genuine vote that best reflects my position on a variety of issues.

...of course, standard caveats apply here: YMMV.

xd9fan
January 24, 2006, 11:30 AM
I don't cast my so-called "third party" vote simply to effect message delivery.
It is, rather, my genuine vote that best reflects my position on a variety of issues.

...of course, standard caveats apply here: YMMV.


well said...I hate that 3rd party will move the others crap....Just vote your hearts and minds people......things will move accourdingly. Vote the party because they are the best for you and yours....

middy
January 24, 2006, 12:47 PM
It must have been so much harder 100 years ago without the internet for people to complain about how stupid everyone else is and how the country is going to hell... :rolleyes:

Camp David
January 24, 2006, 12:54 PM
Voting is never a waste of time....

Seconded. Everyone should vote; if they don't then they have no right to criticize outcome. That said=> vote Republican. The Conservative Party is doing an excellentjob in Washington, IMO.

Deathrider1579
January 24, 2006, 01:08 PM
People as a whole don't like to rock the boat as it were.
I know some people who I shoot with are more concerned with their stock portfolio than whether or not they have leadership in Washington that holds to their values.

I call modern Americans lazy boy Americans. They want to be safe, comfortable, and basically not think. Anything that disturbs them is bad and or "not relevant for this time in America" as in "much of the bill of rights isnít relevant for this time in America" eesh Americans are more interested in being safe and comfortable than they are in being free.

And politicians who are more interested in power and wealth than the people who gave them their voice in the congress will say what they think the voting morons want to hear and they are usually right.

GAAAA I have lost my faith in this great experiment in representative republic government as well I have no hope left or very little any way. I don't know what it would take to turn our country around but I hope it happens soon.

-DR

fourays2
January 24, 2006, 01:41 PM
On top of that when I was new to the trade you NEVER ever met a felon at your job. My company now has three felons that I know of working for the company. When I was learning the trade you never heard about a company hiring a felon much less a good company and I work for a nice company.


I wouldn't be as concerned about this, it's so much easier to be a felon now than say 20 years ago. think of all the BS gun laws, maybe the guy built an AK or a FAL from a prts kit and din't put in the correct # of good US made parts to replace the evil foreign parts. that right there is a felony.

TrapperReady
January 24, 2006, 01:44 PM
When I was a teenager, I knew I was smarter than everyone else.

Life has disabused me of that thought. :rolleyes:

Biker
January 24, 2006, 01:54 PM
Seconded. Everyone should vote; if they don't then they have no right to criticize outcome. That said=> vote Republican. The Conservative Party is doing an excellentjob in Washington, IMO.
Well Friend, I'd take it kindly if you would point out just how the current administration even approaches a loose definition of a "Conservative Party".
Smaller government?
Spending?
Civil liberties?
Border security?
Edify and testify, Bro!
:)
Biker

Camp David
January 24, 2006, 02:11 PM
Well Friend, I'd take it kindly if you would point out just how the current administration even approaches a loose definition of a "Conservative Party".
Smaller government?
Spending?
Civil liberties?
Border security?
Edify and testify, Bro!
:)
Biker

Well Biker... happy to do so... but understand that you asked for this threadjack... just so if the Mods take exception!

Conservative Party of George W. Bush
See list of Policies and Planks Here:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/index.html

Conservative Highlights:
Economy: "The U.S. economy has added nearly 4.5 million new jobs in the last two-and-a-half years and unemployment rate is 5 percent, lower than the average for the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s." Added to this is the tremendous growth of business; Stock market was over 10,000 last week.
Judicial Nominations: Nomination and appointment of Chief Justice Roberts and nomniation and likely appointment of Justice Alito will give two clear conservative voices on Bench.
Pro-Growth and Small Business Agenda: President Bush's Pro-Growth and Small Business Agenda includes maintaining the economy's momentum And growing Small Businesses. In the last two months, the economy has added more than 400,000 jobs - for a total of more than 4.6 million new jobs since May 2003. The 4.9 percent unemployment rate is lower than the average of the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. The economy grew 4.1 percent at an annual rate in the third quarter of 2005 and has been growing above 3 percent in each of the past two years. The Administration put the death tax on the road to extinction and helped families by increasing the child credit. Real after-tax income per person has risen 7 percent since 2001. The Tax Cuts Have Helped Small Businesses. In 2006, 25 million small business owners will receive an estimated $93 billion in tax relief. The President Is Committed To Restraining Federal Spending. The Administration has reduced the growth of non-security discretionary spending each year the President has been in office. For 2006, we cut non-security discretionary spending below the 2005 spending level and worked with Congress to reduce entitlement spending by $40 billion.
Strengthening Social Security: "The President is committed to keeping the promise of Social Security for today's retirees and those nearing retirement and strengthening Social Security for our children and grandchildren."

All these accomplishments at home while winning the War on Terror by defeating our enemies abroad so we do not have to confront them here at home.

See list of Bush Accomplishments Here:
http://boycottliberalism.com/Bush.htm
(Itemized List of Conservative Victories from 2000-2005 (not yet updated)

It is rare that either conservatives or liberals elect a president that will cater to every platform of their party faithful. Rather than questioning what President Bush has not done to satisfy your desires along the party's planks, I suggest you examine what he has done so far. Indeed, if not for the encompassing War on Terror taking so much of the Chief Executive's time and attention, perhaps more of what you wish along the domestic front could be accomplished.

progunner1957
January 24, 2006, 02:34 PM
I've been told that most politicians have to appeal to voters on a 7th grade level
Jesse, never lose faith in the gullibility and the simplemindedness of The American Sheeple. They are being programmed as we speak to trot off to the voting booths in 2008, push the button marked "Hillary Clinton" and go about their "me-me-me" lives with vapid smiles on their mindless faces.

Once Hillary is installed as Queen, everything will be perfect. There will be no more bigotry (except against gun owners), no more "unlawful" Government spying on American citizens (except gun owners), no more hate crimes (except as perpetrated by BATFE agents against gun owners) and no more attacks on "a woman's right to choose" (except her choice to own a gun and carry it).

longeyes
January 24, 2006, 02:39 PM
I call modern Americans lazy boy Americans. They want to be safe, comfortable, and basically not think. Anything that disturbs them is bad and or "not relevant for this time in America" as in "much of the bill of rights isnít relevant for this time in America" eesh Americans are more interested in being safe and comfortable than they are in being free.

It will take one major oil disruption or one baby nuke going off stateside to make Americans realize that safety and comfort aren't gotten by wishful thinking. The party's coming to an end. To ensure our safety we are going to have to do things in the coming years that few Americans want to comprehend. Among those, I think we will be forced to reinstitute a draft regardless of the inevitable hue and cry. We have about a decade, at most, to become relatively energy-independent--IF we start NOW and approach it as if our nation and civilization depended on it. It does.

I wanted Bush to succeed and he is still the only viable alternative in terms of national security, but his administration has been a sorry failure in light of the threats we face. His inability to do anything about out of control spending; his refusal to control our borders; his utter lack of an responsible energy policy--these three liabilities alone are enough to give him a failing grade as President, in my opinion. His biggest achievement will likely, but not certainly, be shifting the Supreme Court back toward sanity.

PCGS65
January 24, 2006, 03:09 PM
People just don't talk politics anymore.
I think most people feel "talk all you want nothing will change" and I have to admit I feel the same way. I know "get out and vote" I do always no matter how small the election. It just seems it's all corrupt bureaucratic cronyizm and it make me sick to think/talk about it. So I generally choose not to and I feel better.LOL
Then you have guys like the ones I work with who go to the casino, bitch how they lost their money and then get piss drunk on the weekends and wonder why their life sucks. Then blame it on Bush or who ever the current president is. Go figure?

I generally vote republican, but do not hesitate to vote for a democrat if I feel the republican is more corrupt!
Another thing I've noticed is democrats will really hate/despise republicans. I have many real life examples of this!
The way I am is I will not hate,despise,chastise or think you belong in jail for your beliefs or choice of speech. I may not understand why but I will not dislike you for it, or not associate with you for it.
Just my 1.5c worth

Manedwolf
January 24, 2006, 03:16 PM
As of the past few years I've become very disillusioned with how politics works in America.
It's not just the scandals and corruption but with voter apathy.
People just don't talk politics anymore. Especially at the work place where we all spend most of our time. It's very diconcerting.
Even if I do touch on politics - especially the gun issue - you get very polarized responses. It's either guns are evil and should be banned or controlled outright; or I own dozens of guns and I'm waiting for someone to sneak in my house so I can blow them away with my AK-47. Yes, I actually worked with someone with that mindset. Needless to say, I kept an eye on him.
I've been told that most politicians have to appeal to voters on a 7th grade level and I can see that. People vote on their gut instincts rather than their intellect.
I believe George W. Bush is a good man and he believes he is doing the right thing but he does come across as buffoonish at times. And exactly how much cronyism is there?
I'm sick of the Democrats I'm sick of the Republicans. I'm sick of partisan politics. I WANT LEADERSHIP G*d damn it! I'm sick of stuffed shirts whose polished mannerisms mask mediocre character. I'm sick of voters with room temperature I.Q.s.
Why aren't there people like the founding fathers out there anymore? What would they think of what has become of us?
On one hand you have the effete Ivy League set who don't do anything but complain. Yeah, Al Franken, you and your ilk. I know a demagogue when I see one. Oh, and Bill O'Reilly can suck the wrong end of a goat too.
Then you have guys like the ones I work with who go to the casino, bitch how they lost their money and then get piss drunk on the weekends and wonder why their life sucks.

As someone else on these forums said, security-soccer-moms scare me more than terrorists do.

Mongo the Mutterer
January 24, 2006, 03:19 PM
I don't know where I heard it, but it fits. Since the founding of our nation (and probably before) One third of the population cares one way, one third cares the other way, and the final third don't care at all.

Most politicians care only for the swing voter -- the final third, who really doesn't care enough to research issues, or isn't motivated enough to do anything but vote.

Of the final third, probably only 10% vote, so we are at their mercy. If you vote for a third party, all you are doing is losing a vote for the party you would have chosen anyway.

IIRC Bush got 62 mil.and Kerry got 59M of approximately 180 million voters. See my logic.

IMHO if you vote for a third party (see Perot, Ross) you are throwing your vote away, and giving support to a party you would never support. IMHO also, if you "vote for the person" in a statewide or national legislative election you are being foolish. The "person" could be the most conservative Democrat or liberal Republican but they will toe the party line once they get to the party. Either they toe the party line or they don't get committee assignments, money, and most importantly power.

So we are stuck. We have the best system in the world, not perfect by any means, but the thing works...:rolleyes:

Manedwolf
January 24, 2006, 03:20 PM
Dems or Repubs neither one is going to end this globalization crap and neither one is going to close the border or do something get people to stop hiring illegals. I will really have to force myself to go out and vote this year. When I think about it it just feels like a waste of time.

Oh well

A simple bit of profound video footage that someone got, that I think should be on TV a lot more. It was a view from across the river when Bethlehem Steel (where a lot of the steel for warships in both world wars came from) closed, and the distant blue flames of the furnaces going out one by one. Forever.

That pretty much sums up the US "homeland" manufacturing capacity, these days. We're losing all the manufacturing overseas and going to the crap that they call a "service" economy. Right. When you don't MAKE anything, or PRODUCE anything...how many haircuts can we give each other while importing more and more goods?

That is NOT sustainable in the long term. In any scenario.

Manedwolf
January 24, 2006, 03:24 PM
Seconded. Everyone should vote; if they don't then they have no right to criticize outcome. That said=> vote Republican. The Conservative Party is doing an excellentjob in Washington, IMO.

The state? I sure don't see many conservatives in the D.C. version. Lots of spend-like-drunken-sailors bigger-bloated-government neocons. No conservatives.

petrel800
January 24, 2006, 03:24 PM
It is my contention that too many people have the right to vote in this country.

If you allow people (Military not included), who pay no federal tax / or receive a bogus welfare (earned income credit) refund from the government to continue voting, how do you expect to quell the size of governemnt. As it stands now, we are approaching the point where almost half the american voters on the roll do not have any tax burden what so ever to the federal government. So at this point, whoever promises more from the treasury, is almost assured election.

Either reform the tax system to a consumption based tax or purge the rolls of government freeloaders.

Manedwolf
January 24, 2006, 03:25 PM
Well Biker... happy to do so... but understand that you asked for this threadjack... just so if the Mods take exception!

Conservative Party of George W. Bush
See list of Policies and Planks Here:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/index.html

Conservative Highlights:
Economy: "The U.S. economy has added nearly 4.5 million new jobs in the last two-and-a-half years and unemployment rate is 5 percent, lower than the average for the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s." Added to this is the tremendous growth of business; Stock market was over 10,000 last week.
Judicial Nominations: Nomination and appointment of Chief Justice Roberts and nomniation and likely appointment of Justice Alito will give two clear conservative voices on Bench.
Pro-Growth and Small Business Agenda: President Bush's Pro-Growth and Small Business Agenda includes maintaining the economy's momentum And growing Small Businesses. In the last two months, the economy has added more than 400,000 jobs - for a total of more than 4.6 million new jobs since May 2003. The 4.9 percent unemployment rate is lower than the average of the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. The economy grew 4.1 percent at an annual rate in the third quarter of 2005 and has been growing above 3 percent in each of the past two years. The Administration put the death tax on the road to extinction and helped families by increasing the child credit. Real after-tax income per person has risen 7 percent since 2001. The Tax Cuts Have Helped Small Businesses. In 2006, 25 million small business owners will receive an estimated $93 billion in tax relief. The President Is Committed To Restraining Federal Spending. The Administration has reduced the growth of non-security discretionary spending each year the President has been in office. For 2006, we cut non-security discretionary spending below the 2005 spending level and worked with Congress to reduce entitlement spending by $40 billion.
Strengthening Social Security: "The President is committed to keeping the promise of Social Security for today's retirees and those nearing retirement and strengthening Social Security for our children and grandchildren."

All these accomplishments at home while winning the War on Terror by defeating our enemies abroad so we do not have to confront them here at home.

See list of Bush Accomplishments Here:
http://boycottliberalism.com/Bush.htm
(Itemized List of Conservative Victories from 2000-2005 (not yet updated)

It is rare that either conservatives or liberals elect a president that will cater to every platform of their party faithful. Rather than questioning what President Bush has not done to satisfy your desires along the party's planks, I suggest you examine what he has done so far. Indeed, if not for the encompassing War on Terror taking so much of the Chief Executive's time and attention, perhaps more of what you wish along the domestic front could be accomplished.

That's not proof. That's vomiting up predigested, spindoctored talking points from Rove and Co.
Some of those aren't even ANSWERS, they're just empty rhetoric!

You're actually proving one of the points of this threat. Regurgitating the answers provided to you isn't the "thinking" that a good voter needs to engage in.

Manedwolf
January 24, 2006, 03:31 PM
I wanted Bush to succeed and he is still the only viable alternative in terms of national security, but his administration has been a sorry failure in light of the threats we face. His inability to do anything about out of control spending; his refusal to control our borders; his utter lack of an responsible energy policy--these three liabilities alone are enough to give him a failing grade as President, in my opinion. His biggest achievement will likely, but not certainly, be shifting the Supreme Court back toward sanity.

I lost faith right back on 9/11 when he did NOT drop the damned "my pet goat" book, run out of the classroom, demand to know where the NEACP plane was, what was being done strategically to protect the D.C. and military assests, wanting reports from intelligence NOW, etc. etc...the things you'd expect you know...a LEADER to do? He choked. He choked bigtime. He sat there.

What do you do with a soldier, police officer, etc, if, when faced with a crisis, they choke, freeze, and cannot take decisive action immediately to get a handle on the situation? Do you want them in a command position? The office of Commmander in Chief is NOT one where we can afford to give someone credit "just for trying!" ...They either lead as a strong leader, able to take command in crisis, or they should be OUT.

The smirk and vapid eyes aren't cutting it. Neither are the wide-open borders, rampant cronyism, and lack of follow-through on the objectives needed to END threats like bin Laden and co.

Biker
January 24, 2006, 03:33 PM
Well Biker... happy to do so... but understand that you asked for this threadjack... just so if the Mods take exception!

Conservative Party of George W. Bush
See list of Policies and Planks Here:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/infocus/index.html

Conservative Highlights:
Economy: "The U.S. economy has added nearly 4.5 million new jobs in the last two-and-a-half years and unemployment rate is 5 percent, lower than the average for the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s." Added to this is the tremendous growth of business; Stock market was over 10,000 last week.
Judicial Nominations: Nomination and appointment of Chief Justice Roberts and nomniation and likely appointment of Justice Alito will give two clear conservative voices on Bench.
Pro-Growth and Small Business Agenda: President Bush's Pro-Growth and Small Business Agenda includes maintaining the economy's momentum And growing Small Businesses. In the last two months, the economy has added more than 400,000 jobs - for a total of more than 4.6 million new jobs since May 2003. The 4.9 percent unemployment rate is lower than the average of the 1970s, 1980s, and 1990s. The economy grew 4.1 percent at an annual rate in the third quarter of 2005 and has been growing above 3 percent in each of the past two years. The Administration put the death tax on the road to extinction and helped families by increasing the child credit. Real after-tax income per person has risen 7 percent since 2001. The Tax Cuts Have Helped Small Businesses. In 2006, 25 million small business owners will receive an estimated $93 billion in tax relief. The President Is Committed To Restraining Federal Spending. The Administration has reduced the growth of non-security discretionary spending each year the President has been in office. For 2006, we cut non-security discretionary spending below the 2005 spending level and worked with Congress to reduce entitlement spending by $40 billion.
Strengthening Social Security: "The President is committed to keeping the promise of Social Security for today's retirees and those nearing retirement and strengthening Social Security for our children and grandchildren."

All these accomplishments at home while winning the War on Terror by defeating our enemies abroad so we do not have to confront them here at home.

See list of Bush Accomplishments Here:
http://boycottliberalism.com/Bush.htm
(Itemized List of Conservative Victories from 2000-2005 (not yet updated)

It is rare that either conservatives or liberals elect a president that will cater to every platform of their party faithful. Rather than questioning what President Bush has not done to satisfy your desires along the party's planks, I suggest you examine what he has done so far. Indeed, if not for the encompassing War on Terror taking so much of the Chief Executive's time and attention, perhaps more of what you wish along the domestic front could be accomplished.
Camp David...
It seems that your list of accomplishments are straight out of the Karl Rove School of Spin. We could talk about the job situation, as in most of the new jobs are service indusry which replaced good paying manufacturing jobs but we won't. I would like to see you address, sans cut and paste, the issues that I presented:

Smaller government.
Spending.
Civil liberties.
Border Security.

Rove can't help ya here, Friend.

;)
Biker

Sindawe
January 24, 2006, 03:35 PM
I notice that Camp_David did not address a single issue raised by Biker with respect to the Bush Administrations performance as a conservative Admin.

On jobs, the following may be of interest, despite the age of the data.

Dateline: December 6, 2004

2.7 million manufacturing jobs have been lost since President Bush took office.

There were only 112,000 job created in November, well below the 200,000 predicted new jobs.

The Bush administration has a net loss of 313,000 jobs. If this doesn't improve during the next two months, Bush will be the first president since Herbert Hoover to have a net job loss during his first term.

The industries creating new jobs (mostly service sector positions) pay, on average, over 20% less than the industries that have lost jobs.

There are 8 million (counted) unemployed workers.

The unemployment statistics don't including people no longer collecting unemployment benefits or those who have given up looking for work. In some cases, they are listed as discouraged workers.

When you add people who are employed, but, seeking a new job, and those who are unemployed, but, not counted, to those 8 million people collecting unemployment, that's a whole lot of people who are looking for a job. This gives a much different, and more realistic, perspective to the unemployment statistics and to how difficult the job market is still.

Source: http://jobsearch.about.com/od/unemployment/qt/unemploystats.htm

On spending, I think this graph tells all the needs to be said.

http://www.federalbudget.com/chart.gif

Source: http://www.federalbudget.com/

Anybody recall the information that the Feds will hit their debt ceiling by mid-March?

http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2006/01/08/BUG7IGJHEI1.DTL&type=business

Camp David
January 24, 2006, 03:48 PM
Camp David...
It seems that your list of accomplishments are straight out of the Karl Rove School of Spin. We could talk about the job situation, as in most of the new jobs are service indusry which replaced good paying manufacturing jobs but we won't. I would like to see you address, sans cut and paste, the issues that I presented:

Smaller government.
Spending.
Civil liberties.
Border Security.

Rove can't help ya here, Friend.

;)
Biker

Did you even read my post? I thought not. Since when does your list constitute the entire Conservative agenda? Just a clue here Biker, you may wish to research the original founder of the Republican Party and how he responded to: Smaller government. Spending. Civil liberties. and Border Security. You'll not be pleased with the research!

Again, read what I posted. Does president Bush appeal to every plank in the Party? No. Does anyone? Doubtful. History judges presidents who appeal to the largest majority yet still cater to their base. I'll warn you though; if you start looking for another political party which matches your politics better you may search in desperate vain... moderates and liberals are far outside the mainstream and independents can't win. So where does that leave you?

engineer151515
January 24, 2006, 03:56 PM
I gave up on the American mass electorate when Bill Clinton was re-elected into a second term.

Although the second term provided me with countless hours of Monica "I did not have sex with that woman" Lewinsky scandal and an education on impeachment proceedings, I would give all that back for the opportunity to avoid the explanation that blowjobs = sex to my teenage kids no matter what the President of the United States says.

:mad:

Biker
January 24, 2006, 03:59 PM
Did you even read my post? I thought not. Since when does your list constitute the entire Conservative agenda? Just a clue here Biker, you may wish to research the original founder of the Republican Party and how he responded to: Smaller government. Spending. Civil liberties. and Border Security. You'll not be pleased with the research!

Again, read what I posted. Does president Bush appeal to every plank in the Party? No. Does anyone? Doubtful. History judges presidents who appeal to the largest majority yet still cater to their base. I'll warn you though; if you start looking for another political party which matches your politics better you may search in desperate vain... moderates and liberals are far outside the mainstream and independents can't win. So where does that leave you?
Yes camp David, I read your post and I maintain that you didn't respond to my original points of contention - same ol' redirect and deflect tactics.
Now, if you want to keep this civil (as I would), I suggest that you bag the condescending BS and not answer questions for me as put forth by you.
Whadaya say? Hmmmmm?
The questions that I asked constitute a great deal of the Conservative agenda. If you disagree, we have no further cause for debate.
Now,answer the questions or go home.

Biker

longeyes
January 24, 2006, 04:14 PM
The issue's not whether Bush is the perfect conservative or better than the Dems, the question is whether he's good enough. Good enough to stop this Republic from going under, good enough to stop the slide toward socialism and/or a police state, good enough to maintain the social and cultural integrity and sovereignty of the nation, good enough to protect America's middle class and not steer jobs toward foreign nations and illegal invaders, good enough to protect our currency from utter debasement and this nation from de facto global debtor status, good enough to put our survival--by working to implement rational energy policies leading to independence--above loyalty to a small group of friends and allies.

longeyes
January 24, 2006, 04:17 PM
It's been said before, worth saying again: Bush is not and never was a conservative, he's a globalist liberal (old school) with some strong religious convictions. Seen this way his actions make sense. Almost.

Camp David
January 24, 2006, 04:19 PM
The questions that I asked constitute a great deal of the Conservative agenda. Say's who? Did President Bush campaign on just the following four items: Smaller government. Spending. Civil liberties. Border Security? Or are those four the four you chose simply becuase THERE IS A WAR ON TERROR ONGOING and that requires more of the President's time and attention that silly civil liberties acts to placate the non-violent crowd? I submit that President Bush has done quite a bit for the Conservative cause; his legacy on the Supreme Court will outlast even Ronald Reagan! And his word to anti-abortion supporters was affirmed by his denial of late-term abortion and his appointment of true conservatives to the Federal bench that one day may reverse Roe v. Wade.

Yet, yes, there are no doubt items within the conservative tent that Bush has not acted upon. Smaller government will come with a Line-Item Veto; something we need but do not have yet. Border security will come and Bush deservedly takes a hit for this item. I can, however, understand his reasoning for non-action, him fighting an international War on Terror! Spending? See the bit I posted about the economy, tax cuts, and small business growth. And so far as you civil liberties chant? I suggest you worry about this after we eliminate the terrorists that are interested in taking both your civil liberties and your life!

If you disagree, we have no further cause for debate.
I suggest you've made up your mind - politically - already and are not interested in facts unless they feed your opinion rather than your education!

Biker
January 24, 2006, 04:26 PM
Say's who? Did President Bush campaign on just the following four items: Smaller government. Spending. Civil liberties. Border Security? Or are those four the four you chose simply becuase THERE IS A WAR ON TERROR ONGOING and that requires more of the President's time and attention that silly civil liberties acts to placate the non-violent crowd? I submit that President Bush has done quite a bit for the Conservative cause; his legacy on the Supreme Court will outlast even Ronald Reagan! And his word to anti-abortion supporters was affirmed by his denial of late-term abortion and his appointment of true conservatives to the Federal bench that one day may reverse Roe v. Wade.

Yet, yes, there are no doubt items within the conservative tent that Bush has not acted upon. Smaller government will come with a Line-Item Veto; something we need but do not have yet. Border security will come and Bush deservedly takes a hit for this item. I can, however, understand his reasoning for non-action, him fighting an international War on Terror! Spending? See the bit I posted about the economy, tax cuts, and small business growth. And so far as you civil liberties chant? I suggest you worry about this after we eliminate the terrorists that are interested in taking both your civil liberties and your life!


I suggest you've made up your mind - politically - already and are not interested in facts unless they feed your opinion rather than your education!

I suggest that you chafe both of your pompous lips on my conservative butt-cheeks!;)
Biker:)

Henry Bowman
January 24, 2006, 05:03 PM
I suggest that you chafe both of your pompous lips on my conservative butt-cheeks!Now there's a compelling (and high road) argument!:rolleyes:

Biker
January 24, 2006, 05:28 PM
Now there's a compelling (and high road) argument!:rolleyes:
Somehow, I suspect that the 'real' Henry Bowman might agree with me. In any case, I don't believe that "The High Road" is defined by mendacity cloaked in magniloquence. On the other hand, could it be that you're taking yourself a bit too seriously?
Just a thought...
Biker

Sindawe
January 24, 2006, 05:28 PM
I suggest you've made up your mind - politically - already and are not interested in facts unless they feed your opinion rather than your education!But we've not seen any facts Camp_David. The first part of your long post about the Bush Admin accomplishments comes from the propaganda arm of the White House.

JesseJames
January 24, 2006, 05:42 PM
It is so true. Globalization: is it truly good or bad?
One could argue that helping to develop other countries means greater national security for America. Long-term benefits.
On the other hand in the short-term, the American workers get shafted.
I still don't understand how China got most favored nation for trade status. How the hec did Clinton go about that???
And the American people just sat by and let it happen. Many manufacturing jobs go overseas and everyone is left wondering what the hec is happening.
Very simple. We let it happen.
The trade deficit is so lop-sided it's funny. How can Chen working in the fields earning pennies a day buy an American made car or radio? While their shops pump out merchandise like crazy to fill the Walmarts of America with cheap goods of questionable quality. Their quality was bad not too long ago but they are getting BETTER, much better. We can't compete with that kind of dirt cheap labor. We just can't. Is a service economy what America really wants? Is it?
The American public education system is a joke compared to most other developed nations for a reason. Just push them through the system. I know that's how I felt when I was in high school.
I'm jaded. I'm trying hard not to be cynical. But I am definitely jaded. I think I'll take my Savage .22-250 out to the range and punch a few holes at 200 yards to clear my mind. In a strange way, it's peaceful out there on the range with gunfire going on around you.

White Horseradish
January 24, 2006, 07:38 PM
Camp_David, I just have one question. How is it that border security is NOT part of the war on terror? The way you say it, they are almost mutually exclusive in your and Mr. Bush's world...

Turkey Creek
January 24, 2006, 07:47 PM
Is American mass electorate bunch of idiots?

In a word, yes!- Look at the Idiot Box schedule any day of the week to see the mindless offerings that the masses seem to be enthralled with- From what passes for comedy that has to include "laugh tracks" so that viewers know something "funny" was said, to "reality" programming that millions of people seem to be captivated with that has no relationship to the real world- I'm convinced that there is no hope for recovery from the downward spiral the American society finds itself in-

I'm 60 years old and damn glad I was born of two caring parents that taught me that there is "No Free Lunch"- I'm double damn glad I was educated when I was, compared to the educational process we have today- There used to be work ethic and consideration for others taught to children, no more apparently- It's a "me first and to hell with everyone else" attitude becoming more and more pervasive- And there is no age, gender, or race to which all this mess is exclusive to- I'm tired of listening to the elderly complain that they are on "Fixed Incomes", who the hell isn't!- I'm tired of the young having no sense of right and wrong evidenced by the assumption that lying and cheating to get ahead is normal-

Am I depressed? You Bet!- The good part for me personally is that my age and family history of less than normal life expectancy means that I will check out before it get's a whole lot worse- The bad part is that the world will not be better for my children and grandchildren than it was for me- The movie "Soylent Green" keeps popping into my head- Sorry to rant on so here, but the more I look for the silver lining, the more convinced I become that it just isn't there- :(

Biker
January 24, 2006, 07:52 PM
Well Turkey Creek, sometimes there ain't nothin' at the end of the tunnel but a brick wall. Here, I repeat my mantra: I hope I'm wrong.

Biker

RealGun
January 24, 2006, 07:54 PM
In a word, yes!- Look at the Idiot Box schedule any day of the week to see the mindless offerings that the masses seem to be enthralled with- From what passes for comedy that has to include "laugh tracks" so that viewers know something "funny" was said, to "reality" programming that millions of people seem to be captivated with that has no relationship to the real world- I'm convinced that there is no hope for recovery from the downward spiral the American society finds itself in-

I'm 60 years old and damn glad I was born of two caring parents that taught me that there is "No Free Lunch"- I'm double damn glad I was educated when I was, compared to the educational process we have today- There used to be work ethic and consideration for others taught to children, no more apparently- It's a "me first and to hell with everyone else" attitude becoming more and more pervasive- And there is no age, gender, or race to which all this mess is exclusive to- I'm tired of listening to the elderly complain that they are on "Fixed Incomes", who the hell isn't!- I'm tired of the young having no sense of right and wrong evidenced by the assumption that lying and cheating to get ahead is normal-

Am I depressed? You Bet!- The good part for me personally is that my age and family history of less than normal life expectancy means that I will check out before it get's a whole lot worse- The bad part is that the world will not be better for my children and grandchildren than it was for me- The movie "Soylent Green" keeps popping into my head- Sorry to rant on so here, but the more I look for the silver lining, the more convinced I become that it just isn't there- :(


Nice rant. We old phart curmudgeons need to stick together. I have my own ideas about where we took some wrong turns or what we might change, but it is generally not politically correct to discuss them. Some are also bitter pills that no politician would be willing to champion.

Camp David
January 24, 2006, 08:04 PM
I suggest that you chafe both of your pompous lips on my conservative butt-cheeks!;)
Biker:)

I'll take the High Road, Biker, and ignore your juvenile insult.

We simply disagree on policy. You believe Bush should be active on every domestic issue and you fault him for not catering to your pet interests; I tend to look at the big picture and what the President can do, bearing in mind the current war which you seem to forget in your condemnation of the administration.

But we've not seen any facts Camp_David. The first part of your long post about the Bush Admin accomplishments comes from the propaganda arm of the White House. So what should I cite to reference my point... Howard Dean's website?

Camp_David, I just have one question. How is it that border security is NOT part of the war on terror? The way you say it, they are almost mutually exclusive in your and Mr. Bush's world...
I have faulted this administration for not being more proactive on the borders. The National Guard should have been detailed to our northern and southern borders the day after 09/11/01. That is a mistake that our president has made. However, I understand why he has not been more active on border policy; the war itself drains impetus for such an effort. To answer your question White Horseradish: border security is part of war and I think we know that now... Bush has three more years and expect tighter borders to be a big part of that time!

Sindawe
January 24, 2006, 08:32 PM
Bush has three more years and expect tighter borders to be a big part of that time!Anybody want to buy a slightly used bridge?

Manedwolf
January 24, 2006, 09:49 PM
I'm 60 years old and damn glad I was born of two caring parents that taught me that there is "No Free Lunch"- I'm double damn glad I was educated when I was, compared to the educational process we have today- There used to be work ethic and consideration for others taught to children, no more apparently- It's a "me first and to hell with everyone else" attitude becoming more and more pervasive-

When it comes to employment, there's a reason for people being that way...namely, the employers. People still had pensions a while ago. You work hard, you devote your life to your company, they make you a promise and they keep it. Not anymore.

Myself and everyone I know in high-tech...we have to be mercenaries. We can't, won't be loyal to any one company because we constantly see the axe fall on friends and co-workers just to make shareholders happy with some false inflation of the sinking profit margin by cutting some more paychecks. We're veterans of dotcoms started on an honest dream, then taken over and used as short-term money machines by MBAheads who bailed out with a golden parachute and let it crash and burn. The employers have NO loyalty to their employees...correction, they're merely "resources", now, as in something you use up.

So of course employees, smart ones, are now highly mercenary and me-first, not loyal to any company or organization. You have to be to survive.

Old Dog
January 24, 2006, 10:50 PM
Apparently, some of you seem to believe that it's the job of the President of the U.S.A. to keep American businesses from outsourcing and off-shoring. Others among you seem to labor under the misperception that it's also the President's job to counter the globalization of the economy. And everyone's bitching about the American workers "getting shafted."

This whole business is not a political problem, but really just a symptom of the decay of our culture. It's not our politicians, it's the state of our educational system. Our economy produces jobs at the high end, but we've got a educational system geared toward the low end, so many of the high-paying jobs are, of course, out of reach of many, while the jobs in the middle are getting outsourced and off-shored. It's not the porous borders and the huge amounts of Latinos migrating upward, nor the Chinese or the Indians nor the Vietnamese ... It's all on us.

I'm getting so sick of y'all pointing fingers back and forth ... "It's the Bush administration's fault." "No, it's Clinton's fault." It's the liberals, it's the neo-cons, it's the dot-commers, it's the MBAs ... Geez people, it's US, we let it get this way. Quit whining. It's not gonna get any better until we start educating our young people a whole let better.

Waitone
January 24, 2006, 11:14 PM
Apparently, some of you seem to believe that it's the job of the President of the U.S.A. to keep American businesses from outsourcing and off-shoring. Others among you seem to labor under the misperception that it's also the President's job to counter the globalization of the economy. And everyone's bitching about the American workers "getting shafted."

This whole business is not a political problem, but really just a symptom of the decay of our culture. Kinda sorta agree and kinda sorta disagree. I think decay of the culture is a force multiplier, so to speak. It merely amplifies political forces at work. Like it or not there exist platoons of members of the ruling class that are hell-bent on economic integration with other countries. The current president most decidedly is in that camp as was the previous president. Matter of fact it stretches all the way back to Roosevelt with a particular spike in effectiveness in Carter and Clinton. No president's skirt is clean of globalization. Key tenents of the move to economic integration have occured without benefit of public debate and legislative vote. An occasional vote takes place but the prime mover is by unknown bureaucrats simply implement whatever is under their pervue using money the taxpayer generously provided.

Yea, our educational system sucks but that is not the reason manufacturing is fleeing the US. Our costs are out of line with a global production arbitrage but our government is offering no relief from government imposed and mandated costs. Our government is the one offering incentives to companies to leave. Our government is the one signing trade agreements (in the old days they were called treaties) and lying the whole time about who benefits. Our government sees illegal actions taking place and consistently and steadfastly refuses to do anything to enforce existing laws. Government does it, not the culture. Globalization for now is defined around terms of economic integration. Only an idiot would say you can have economic integration without eventually have political integration. IMNSHO nothing good ultimately will come from political integration. In this debate both political parties participate equally. There is no R vs D. It is all ruling class vs taxpaying class.

A clear cut example is illegal immigration. Democrats are thrashing around trying to find something that will give them a shot at power. There is one--illegal immigration. 80% figure shows up in surveys as the number of people who what decisive action taken yet democrats are strangely quiet. Why not grab that issue and beat the snot out of republicans with it? Can't because their plan is the republican's plan. Controlling immigration is not in the cards because both sides have bought off on the professed need to import peons from Mexico, drive labor costs in the US down, export production to other countries thereby raising the standard of living in other countries and lowering the standard of living in the US. One can make a case that democrats are in deep, deep yogurt. Their failure to grab onto a highly polarizing issue is telling of where their true loyalties lie. R and D are in it together.

McCall911
January 24, 2006, 11:25 PM
Is American mass electorate bunch of idiots?

We're only the finest in the world!

:uhoh:

:o

:D

JesseJames
January 24, 2006, 11:32 PM
I think we have struck the right chord here. Finally.
Education in America.
Public education is a joke. From what I've seen coming out of the Universities of today makes me wonder what exactly are they teaching these kids.
Is the feel-good, Sesame Street culture, brought up in the electronic entertainment age, really aiming this country into the toilet?
Have we abandoned tough love for the school psychologist who wants to make the kid feel good about him or herself and delude them on how life and the world really is?
Should we turn to school vouchers, charter schools, boarding schools, uniforms for public schools, separation of sexes.
I'm in my early thirties so it's still fresh in my mind. I'm a generation X'er.
I had a good education up until high school. Then we moved to a new town and I started high school there. I have to say, the thing that I recall the most was the overt sense of BOREDOM. It was mostly rote learning.
God help us all if that's still how it is.

CAnnoneer
January 25, 2006, 12:21 AM
Public education is a gordian knot of issues...I would cut the knot very simply: Something given for free, has no value.

The idea that education should be free and virtually compulsory for everybody is the result of the leftist/socialist dream of a classless society. In reality, the educational systems that have produced the best results are inherently hierarchic, wherein good students are allowed to progress to better schools, while bad students are kept away from holding back the former.

cgjunk2
January 25, 2006, 03:17 AM
In reality, the educational systems that have produced the best results are inherently hierarchic, wherein good students are allowed to progress to better schools, while bad students are kept away from holding back the former.

So then, if we were to pick who we decide to teach, then we would have better schools? Can I pick all the smart kids, then take credit for how smart they are by saying that I taught them? :p Maybe they should let doctors pick who they will treat in the ER, so then they won't have so many people die on them and make them look bad and incompetent.

Educational systems that look like they produce the best results have probably been very selective in who they choose to educate. That is almost an obvious statement.

But if the choice has been made that we will educate all (which is in fact the choice that has been made by our society), then we cannot get away from the fact that the bell curve exists. That means we will have "failures."

We can, of course, decide as a society that it is not important to make any effort to educate the lower third (or what have you) of the bell curve. I can guarantee that if we decide that, our "education" system would be among the "best" in the world.

gc70
January 25, 2006, 11:45 AM
But if the choice has been made that we will educate all (which is in fact the choice that has been made by our society), then we cannot get away from the fact that the bell curve exists. That means we will have "failures."Unfortunately, the choice has also been made to ignore the bell curve and try to deny that "failures" exist.

Our educational system is being (or possibly already has been) dumbed-down to the lowest common denominator. Why? So we won't hurt the delicate self-esteem of the poor performers. Or because a poor-performing sub-group, whether sexual, racial, or ethnic, whined that the standards (and thus the bell curve) were not "fair."

Consider this summary from an Ohio State research pape (http://www.math.ohio-state.edu/~elaughba/papers/argument_using_function_approach_when_teaching_remedial_alg_preprint.pdf)r:Currently, developmental/remedial algebra (and arithmetic) constitutes more than 50% of the math sections offered at two-year colleges, and around 20% at four-year colleges. With incoming new freshmen graduating in June, 75% must take one or more remedial math course(s) upon entering college in the fall. So, repeating high school algebra in college is nearly a standard, and it has been for many years.Holy smokes - 75% of the students entering college have to retake high school math courses! It's no wonder the kid manning the cash register at your local eatery can hardly make change.

longeyes
January 25, 2006, 12:35 PM
The National Guard should have been detailed to our northern and southern borders the day after 09/11/01. That is a mistake that our president has made. However, I understand why he has not been more active on border policy; the war itself drains impetus for such an effort. To answer your question White Horseradish: border security is part of war and I think we know that now... Bush has three more years and expect tighter borders to be a big part of that time!

Our border policy is not a "mistake," it's quite deliberate. And if Bush has his way it will only change in terms of legitimating invasion from the South and furthering global resettlement for economic purposes. Bush has a plan all right--too bad it's not a plan most Americans want or will benefit from.

As for our schools, we have pursued mediocrity in the name of democracy and we have royally achieved it. I'm sure our competitors abroad are very happy that America has crippled itself economically in the name of not hurting anyone's feelings.

JesseJames
January 25, 2006, 05:45 PM
I question the veracity of "The Bell Curve". I'll have to look further into it to see if it has real scientific merit.
It is clear that the majority of school districts in this country have geared their classes towards socialization rather than performance. We are now reaping the seeds of that. And brother let me tell ya', it doesn't look good.
It's not just knowing facts and figures but the ability to ANALYZE AND REASON.
One big thing to consider is the teachers unions. I believe they should be gotten rid of. How do you fire incompetent teachers when they are protected by their unions? And the unions are unbelievable at protecting their own.
I think uniforms should be standard in schools up until at least high school.
You are here to learn. Not be part of a dog and pony show.
The elite students should be allowed to go to gifted and talented programs. They could earn extra points for going to college by volunteering to help tutor other students.
There should be a standard of demanded excellence. Discipline is the avenue to that and it is a good thing.
We should seriously consider boarding schools or academies for the inner cities. Good kids have to pay for a few reprobates. The majority come from broken homes. If we can create a SAFE place for them to learn and not worry about their street reputation then all for the better.
We need to blow "feel good schooling" out of the water and once again demand excellence.
It's the first and most critical step in insuring the strength of this nation.

CAnnoneer
January 25, 2006, 09:45 PM
The reality is that there are good students and bad students, and there are good teachers and bad teachers. The most successful system operating under limited resources is the one that matches the best students with the best teachers.

Let's face it. A guy that will end up in prison or flipping burgers for the rest of his life has no use of calculus. A society wasting money on unmotivated jaded future felons is watering the desert in exchange for psychological comfort and political correctness. As a matter of simple fact, the few bad apples in each school or class disproprotionately affect the mean performance.

Finally, structural accessibility and hierarchic instruction are perfectly compatible concepts. They allow upward mobility for the motivated hard-workers regardless of background, while also allowing downward mobility for the weak, the dumb, and the lazy. Any deflections from that model result in varying degrees of inefficacy and wastage. The current system is a particularly bothersome example.

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